Country & Western in English Folk Clubs

Subject: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM

I heard it said by a performer at a folk club last night

"I think there isn't enough Country and Western music played in English Folk Clubs"

comments please?

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: LesB
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM

I don't
Cheers

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 01:56 PM

Poor chap.

name and shame ?

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:08 PM

There IS a LOT of Cross Over from Old Timey to C & W (without going TOO commercial) which would not bother me ! And there are a lot of decent Country & western songs anyway .

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:36 PM

Now then, I wouldn't necessarily play Folk at a Country and Western Club. However our session is a singaround so mostly anything goes.

CC

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:55 PM

interesting personally ,i dont think there IS enough English folk music booked at country and western clubs

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:55 PM

Well said Leadfingers. I love a lot of the early "country" material that doesn't quite fit in to c&w, old-time or blues niches.

And did you know that "Jolene" fits the chords of "Scarborough Fair" quite nicely....

Pete.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:59 PM

Rafflesbear - if you heard it said by a performer, could you please enlighten us as to what said performer then performed?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

Never quite took to performing C&W despite my old mate John Westland's attempts to get 'Half Cut and Dried' to get more into our repertoire. 'Paradise' was the closest he ever got me to go.
I just can't see the attraction in that genre.
BobH

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:22 PM

Kitty, I'm afraid I can't tell you, I was no longer in the room !!! :-)

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM

"i dont think there IS enough English folk music booked at country and western clubs"
Personally. I don't think there's enough English folk music booked at English folk clubs
Can't see the objection really - if musiic hall, Victorian parlour ballads, early 20th century pop songs (and Yellow Submarine) are all permissable, why not C&W - as Leadfingers suggested, much of the earlier C&W is far nearer folk than a lot of the stuff I've walked out of in 'folk clubs'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:48 PM

careful, I can feel a what is folk music thread coming here!!

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:12 PM

Reminds me of the scene in the Blues Brothers film when the lady at the club was asked what type of music did they feature replied "both types Country and Western".
Personally on the whole I detest the so-called country music that currently comes out of Nashville and has done for years, nothing more than pop music. But much of the early recorded country music was derived from much older music in the public domain and included variations of old British ballads. But you already know that don't you.

Despite the warning above by Rafflebear I wouldn't think that John Prine songs come under the label of Country and Western.

From my limited experience of folk clubs these days it seems like almost anything goes particularly when "floor singers" are involved.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:18 PM

My feelings exactly, Hoot. I've no love for anything from Nashville, on the whole, but songs from the days of the Carter Family, Jimmie Rodgers (the early one), the Delmore Brothers, etc., are fine with me. I don't know much about John Prine's songs, but he has a good reputation with several folk musicians I'm acquainted with.

I love Western Swing - Bob Wills, etc. - but I wouldn't expect to hear it, or play it myself, at a folk club. Doc Watson, on the other hand, is OK with me - any time.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:55 PM

My comment was made partly tongue-in-cheek, but only partly.
Take a look at The Harry Smith collection.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:06 PM

I got the modern box set (4 CDs) of the Harry Smith collection - complete with facsimiles of the original notes and booklet, courtesy of the Smithsonian, some months ago. Priceless! Still and education after all those years.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Effsee
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:02 PM

My first experience of a John Prine song was in Aberdeen Folk Song Club in 1972(I think) from Mike Whelans, "Sam Stone"...it's still a favourite! No way C&W!

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:07 PM

Jim Carroll

Personally. I don't think there's enough English folk music booked at English folk clubs

Oh, Jim, please stop it. How often do you actually go to an English folk club?

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:48 AM

Sorry Bryan - haven't lost the power to read yet - and still make the occasaional trip to the UK.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Ann N
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:42 AM

If the Folk Club/session is advertised as a for 'English music/song' then possibly a full evening of C&W would be out of place but at an 'everyone welcome' session/singaround a well sung C&W song added in should be fine :)

The session I go to most is more of a singaround with a great mix of songs from traditional to comic, and they put up with me (as a definite non-singer) playing tunes ranging from English to Finnish :)

   They're a tolerant lot

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Acorn4
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM

The name of our duo "On the Fence" came from the first folk club that we went to when we started singing (we actually run the club now). The country singers would be on one side of the room and the folk singers on the other interspersed with the odd tune. There would be good natured jibes about "fingers in ears" and "dead puppies", but everyone got on fine.

We started to include songs from both genres in our repertoire, hence the "On the Fence", though we do tend to alter our choice of songs according to where we're singing these days.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Darowyn
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:13 AM

In a folk club, I did once, just out of mischief, start to sing "As I walked out on a bright May Morning" singing unaccompanied, but after one verse (slightly altered lyrics) went into Dolly Parton's "Jolene" (with guitar).
I think I did an Otis Redding song after that.
It was a small protest against a succession of badly sung, snails pace, renditions of the usual suspects in boring ballads.
The result?
Faces like thunder from the Traddie clique. Enthusiastic applause from the people who like to be entertained.
Country music fans would know that anyone who uses the phrase 'Country and Western' to refer to a single genre, knows very little about it.
I find that the three-to-one rule applies, as in all types of music. There are three poor, or at best, mediocre songs for every good one.
I enjoy hearing a good song, whatever the genre, whatever the context.
Play mediocre ones, whether Trad Folk or Country (or even Western!) and I'm bored and looking for something to liven the place up!

Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:22 AM

Jane Turriff sings Jimmie Rodgers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn2UTXDIDCA

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: mandotim
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:47 AM

People who describe a broad swathe of American music as 'Country and Western' are merely showing their ignorance of a rich and diverse musical lineage. Would they describe Jean Ritchie as 'C&W'? What about the huge repertoire of fiddle tunes played in bluegrass? The vast number of historical ballads in the old-time repertoire? The social commentary of songwriters like John Prine, Townes van Zandt, Guy Clarke, Loudon Wainwright and others? Where do Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, Bob Dylan and company fit in? Don't get me started on the origins of country blues and Texas swing...
I agree that an entire evening of American music in an ostensibly English folk club would be a little incongruous, but the level of intermingling between traditions means that hardly anything is impossible to justify as appropriate. A small example; I was playing mandolin in an 'Americana' session recently, and as part of a set of Old-Time tunes swung into 'Harvest Home', usually thought of as an Irish hornpipe, but often heard in Morris. I was glared at, and later told that 'we don't really appreciate that diddly diddly stuff here'. I replied that the tune I played has another name in the old timey tradition; it's known as the Cincinnati Hornpipe.
There's really only two sorts of music, in my view; good and bad, and I'm ok with bad as long as you play it like you mean it.
Tim

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:24 AM

"Jane Turriff sings Jimmie Rodgers!"
So?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: banjoman
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:55 AM

Well said mandotim - there is a wealth of good music in the American tradition and as far as I am concerned lets hear it alongside the English tradition from where a lot of it came from

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Desi C
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:35 AM

I see from some of the replies that ignorant snobbery still exists with some Folkies, and I'm well aware though it's little voiced, there is if anything an even bigger snobbery in C&W clubs. I run a very popular folk club and both our Singarounds and Singers nights feature Country music, I myself perform Irish trad and country and all genres are allowed and welcome at our club

Indeed many of the old time country songs and singers I suggest do now also qualify as 'folk' music, are not Hank Williams, Johnny cash, Willie Nelson and others covered my many top folk artistes? But much as I love country music, In my opinion virtually none of what now passes as 'country & western' 95 % of it is no better than weak Pop. And apart from maybe a couple of Garth Brooks tracks, I've seen no one even trying to cover the modern stuff, and Amen to that. BUt to those die hard folkies, folk music is music of the people, times and social issues and that sure includes country up to the mid 70's at least. But to answer the question, from my experience yes there is enough Country music in folk clubs, but C&W needs to welcome folk too because believe me C&W in it's modern for is rightly dying a slow death

Desi C
The Circle folk Club
Coseley WV14 9JH
Every Wed night 8 to late
Open mic free admission
Floor spots and showcases availab le
Mail [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:30 AM

Don't know whether or not I'm meant to be included in the 'ignorant snobbery' remark but I know what I like and what I don't and the 95% that Desi denigrates is probably most of the 98% that I don't like.

Nor do I like jazz or heavy metal and would be disappointed if these took hold at my local folk club but I don't feel that snobbery has anything to do with it.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:36 AM

Karen & I have a repertoire that includes "Across The Great Divide", "Here in California" and "Medicine Wheel", all by Kate Wolf, "This Old Town" ,as per the singing of Nancy Griffith (I think !) ,and "Oh Cumberland", as performed by Metraca Berg (or something like that !) ; if that is the dreaded "Country & Western", then I / we am / are sorry, but the prospect of spending the rest of our musical life sticking rigidly to "Bring us a Barrel" and "De ye Ken John Peel ?" does NOT appeal !! Oh no !!

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: mandotim
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:16 PM

I'd like to disassociate myself from the 'ignorant snobbery' line of thinking. I don't think snobbery has anything to do with it, and no one is under any obligation to like everything. I was talking about the non-perjorative sense of ignorance, i.e. meaning 'doesn't know about...'. That ignorance does however lead to some sweeping generalisations that can sometimes be irritating to those who do know about the music.
To respond to Rafflesbear, in a spirit of logical exposition; with respect, you know what you like and what you don't like, based on a sample of what you have actually heard. It can therefore be deduced that there may possibly be a C&W song out there, unheard by you, that will be the best piece of music you ever hear. Or not. I'm in the same position, which is why I don't condemn entire genres out of hand. I don't like all Americana, I like some of it. I don't like all trad English folk; I like some of it. I didn't like Take That until I heard them singing impromptu and unaccompanied in a school hall early in their careers, and realised those lads were really talented harmony singers. The only real answer is to keep listening and exploring I suppose, turning up the odd diamond from the dross as you go along.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:42 PM

like lead fingers, i am in favour of old timey music in folk clubs. but old timey is diffeent from modern country and western.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

I love old-time American music- but it's so very far removed from some of the stuff that emanates from Nashville. One of my "bibles" for country music - apart from the recordings of those people I've mentioned (Carter Family, Jimmie Rodgers, Delmore Brothers, Doc Watson, Doc Boggs, the Harry Smith Collection, etc.) is the Fiddlers' Fakebook - a wonderful collection of fiddle tunes from a variety of sources.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: BTNG
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:14 PM

The term country and western came about with shotgun wedding (to quote No Depression) performed by the Rev. Billboard Magazine in about 1949 (I might be wrong about the year!) I described the difference to a friend by naming two musicians one fron each genre.

Iris Dement: country
Ian Tyson: western

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:19 PM

Mandotim, I hope I'm not missing out too much and despite the generalisations I can see beyond these shores and like Dylan, Phil Ochs and Tom Paxton you mentioned above, plus Stan Rogers, and Gordon Lightfoot in particular.

However, having listened I find that Iris Dement and Ian Tyson do nothing for me.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: mandotim
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

Nor me, as it happens, unless Iris is singing with John Prine, which oddly enough works well. I hope I didn't sound patronising, I didn't intend to be. On the other hand, I like Stan Rogers' songs, but much prefer them done by other people, as his voice really irritates me and his guitar playing is clumsy. I was making just that point; it's really hard to generalise about genres, due to variations in quality, personal preferences, intermingling of traditions and the fact that none of us have heard all of any genre (although I know bluegrass purists who would claim they have, since they've heard everything Bill Monroe ever recorded!).

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: evansakes
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:32 PM

"anyone who uses the phrase 'Country and Western' to refer to a single genre, knows very little about it"

You took the words right out of my mouth.

The phrase hasn't been widely used since the 70's (except in a derogatory sense by people who have no idea what they're talking about and/or have an underlying agenda)

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:26 AM

So?
Jim Carroll

A remarkable recording of a county & western by a remarkable traditional Scottish singer & entirely within the remit of the thread. What more can you ask for?

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Desi C
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM

I used the term 'country & Western' purely because it's the term the U.S country music association uses, and I always use the term 'Country Music' for the old time country stuff I like, I thin it was the Carpenters who were first tagged as 'country' in a radio broadcast which intruced their 'songs of the country' way back in the 1920's. And interesting enough Hank William's song Your Cheating Heart once won 'folk song of the year'

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:38 AM

Last thing I needed first thing this morning was have you walk out on me!

Gary P Nunn

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: autoharpbob
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:57 AM

"I thin it was the Carpenters who were first tagged as 'country' in a radio broadcast which intruced their 'songs of the country' way back in the 1920's"

I think you might mean the Carters - Carpenters were somewhat different and certainly not 20's!

And I don't think it is either ignorant or snobbery to say you like some stuff and don't like others.

I try to take the measure of the clubs I perform at and follow what I hear. Often though I throw in some Carter family cos of my instrument. It seems to go down well usually. I do get a bit fed up though when I go to what is billed as a folk club and all I get is "Your Cheating Heart" and "Okie from Muskogee". Its enjoyable in the mix, but not when it takes over.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:06 AM

RB: I heard it said by a performer at a folk club last night

"I think there isn't enough Country and Western music played in English Folk Clubs"

comments please?

I dunno about formally constituted "Folk Clubs" but virtually every session/ singaround I've been to since I started attending these things has included songs that can be descrbed as "Country" or "C & W" (not wanting to get into labelling discussions here).

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:09 AM

A reminder that the statement wasn't mine in the first place and secondly each person probably has their own opinion of 'enough' - for me it would be a particularly low percentage

It almost seems from the above that there are three genres here

Country
Western
Country and Western

The last one appears to be the repository for D.I.V.O.R.C.E., run-over puppies and terminal illnesses and, unless I am mistaken, has few supporters here? Almost as if their favoured music be it Country or be it Western has been tainted by association??

Tell me I'm wrong if you think so, I'm way off home ground on this!

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM

Go on, guess what I think.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Girl Friday
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:50 AM

Oh... I'm enjoying this fred.

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:01 AM

The sound-clip/video referred to above I think shows how the folk process really works. A song written by a millworker / singer from south west Virginia is picked up and recorded in 1927 by an ex railroad worker from Mississippi. The record is one of several by this singer who became very popular even in Europe in the 1930's and was probably heard by the singer on the sound clip when she was a young lady. She obviously liked the song and took it and performed it in her own way. Nowhere near a carbon copy, so different and so enjoyable - to me anyway.
From my scant knowledge of travelers in the the UK I believe that many of them had and maybe still have a taste for old country songs. I seem to remember a BBC TV programme a number of years back when a traveller down in Kent I believe it was sang a take off of another Jimmie Rogers song. I believe he called it "Will there be any Tavellers in Heaven" whereas Jimmie sang "Hoboes in Heaven.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:04 AM

Check out the sound file at the top of the page I've linked to below -it's a recording of an English duo singing an American song (or at least an American variant of a song) collected by American song collector Max Hunter from a singer whose name shamefully escapes me for the moment. I've heard them do it in a singaround featuring mainly traditional songs from this side of the pond and it fitted like a glove. Songs like this are the roots of American country music - even if we don't necessarily like some of the pop-lite schmaltz that the current country industry pumps out - and has been pumping out in one form or another for forty plus years (Willie, Waylon and the other outlaws weren't kicking back against figments of their imagination back in the 70s!).

Meanwhile, there's a whole otherworld of people in the States outside of the mainstream country scene doing wonderful music deeply rooted in folk traditions, which means - hooray! - that unless you actually like modern mainstream country, you never have to listen to it. Go on, google Charlie Parr, The Black Twig Pickers and Frank Fairfield for starters - all currently on tour in the UK right now - and give yourselves a treat. I'm sure musicians of this sort of calibre singing songs and playing tunes of this sort of quality would (or at least should) be welcome in English folk clubs, even more trad orientated ones...

Rapunzel and Sedayne sing Diver Boy

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:10 AM

Just a note to say that in the US, "C&W" have been artificially blended into a single genre that is actually made up of many more than two distinct genres as conceived by the performers and understood by scholars... so, be sure what you are getting.

~S~

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: evansakes
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM

Last week I went to see Robert Plant's new band (Band of Joy). All the band members live and work in Nashville and three of them (Buddy Miller, Patty Griffin, Darrell Scott) have had a lot of success on the fringes of the country music scene.
Take Darrell for instance....he's written some of The Dixie Chicks' biggest hits. Yet he's also been involved with the Transatlantic Sessions gang. So is he a country or folk singer songwriter?

Is 'You'll Never Leave Harlan Alive' a country or a folk song? Who knows....listening to it maybe it's a blues song even? (some say country music is white man's blues)

Bottom line is....who cares. It's just a GOOD song...and one so good that it deserves to be played and heard in even the most traditional folk clubs.

You'll Never Leave Harlan Alive

Subject: RE: Country & Western in English Folk Clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

I enjoyed that but personally would have preferred that Karen Matheson had been unavailable that day