Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 20 - 03:19 PM

Another iteration:

https://miguelheatwole.bandcamp.com/track/when-all-men-sing

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 10:58 AM

Makes sense to finally combine the two unwieldy threads - can this be done, Max/Joe?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:36 AM

Sorry Tatterfoal. Only just seen your question. A year late!

I left Swinton some years back and rarely get there now. I suggest, as someone did a year back, that you contact Gif directly. If you have not done so already!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: GUEST,Guest Tim
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 01:17 AM

In my opinion there are some songs that do not deserve to be parodied, this being one of them.
Others may have different opinions

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

Have posted this on another thread, but will also post here. Does anyone have the lyrics to Malcolm Austen's parody of this song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 02:58 PM

Derek turned up unannounced at our pub session one evening, and borrowed my guitar. Same guitar Will Fly once tried. I'm still chuffed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: GUEST,Tatterfoal
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 06:25 AM

Thanks will do.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Gozz
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 05:26 AM

Tatterfoal,

I suggest you contact Giff via his website and ask him directly.

http://www.derekgifford.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: GUEST,Tatterfoal
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:52 AM

Could I ask Dave the gnome if Scowie and Gif would allow performance of this song by a male voice choir using transcribed sheet music?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 08:16 AM

I sometimes get to the sea music sing in Dover, NH (formerly at the Press Room), but I haven't done this song in ages - for no reason other than I don't go places where I could sing it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:39 AM

It is a lovely song and I am happy to have met both Scowie and Gif when they were regulars at Swinton Folk Club.

Jeri, do you sing it now?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

There was a mention of a Malcolm Austen rewrite a way up this thread

The rewrite ( Then All Men Sing ) came about after a discussion on long sings at well attended singarounds , and is one verse shorter than the ( undeniably excellent ) original and is well up to Malcolm's usual standard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: severed-head
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:38 AM

Johnny Collins - When All Men Sing

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 11:17 AM

Found this version on YouTube: sung in pretty free time: I think the "free timing" fits with what Nutty and Radriano were saying back in March 2001, and it would be difficult to pin it down to a definite meter in a written score: therefore best learned aurally and sung unaccompanied, as I have always heard it.
When All Men Sing

I also found the Johnny Collins version on his MySpace page but couldn't get it to play.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 07:03 PM

Have looked at the ABC and done a conversion to notation: the notes look about right compared to how I have heard it sung, but the note lengths and therefore timing is not as I know it. Will have a crack at scoring it myself, but I think it's mainly in 3/4, not 4/4 as the first 2 notes of many bars are quavers and not crotchets! (Tho' not waltzy as there are also some longer held notes!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 05:55 PM

17-ish years later? No, I don't have the midi. I don't have a program that can make midis. The abc file is up there, if that's any help.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford
From: GUEST,redraike
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 05:33 PM

So...
I've been looking for the midi of this song to translate it into another format so I can play it in a different program. The ABC file is helpful but not manipulateable.

Jeri - do you still have the midi file link? It's been 17 years...omg...@!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:37 AM

Hi Nutty -- check your personal messages -- I fired one off to you yesterday -- don't know how often you log on --

joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:35 AM

Hi Jan - the second I read the first line of your last posting I knew who you were -- didn't realize before that though!!! Hope all is well with you -- I fired off an email to you earlier --take good care

Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Scuttlebutt
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:02 PM

Hi Joy

Will be happy to pass on your regards next week - how is Radio Mexico

By the way we sold one of the Johnson Girls CD's for the big festival in Portugal coming up in May

We were with Hughie on the Peking last september when we met - email me with the info on the tour

[e-mail]

May you always run before the wind

Jan

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:40 PM

If you stay long enough you'll probably hear "when all men sing"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

When you're in Sidmouth pop by the Middle Bar of the Anchor and say hello - we're the loonies in yellow Jude

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 09:21 AM

Hey Jan L -- if you would be so kind, please pass on my regards to Scowie -- it's been too long since I've seen him. Spoke with him on the phone my last trip over this past January, but I do miss seeing him.

I'll be over again this summer (late July) and then again next January. Perhaps I'll see you somewhere along the way -- I'll be at Warwick festival, Bodmin Folk Club and Sidmouth with my group The Johnson Girls -- if you're at any of these -- stop by and say hello -- it will be nice to meet you.

Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Scuttlebutt
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 05:14 AM

When all men sing - is avialable from The Chantey Cabin see the web site www.chanteycabin.co.uk we also have copies of Scowies Book well illustrared with his own drawings

Both Derek Gifford and Scowie are friends and we will be sing them both at Easter at the UK Lancaster Maritime festival - four days of folk music GREAT

May you always run before the wind

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:24 PM

Joy - if you are coming to the UK in Jan 2002 please get in touch
I run a singers weekend in the North of England in Jan , it is based on the Whittlebury ideal only its slightly smaller (about 90 singers) and indoor , Scowie and Giff come every year and have done since it started.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM

I've had the pleasure of spending time with Keith "Skowie" Scowcroft and have copies of three of his books of poetry. He may have a fourth one out now -- He has some really great ones -- many that have been put to music by Derek and also Mike O'Leary-Johns (FINE trad singer and all -around great guy)

Skowie is quite the character and an incredibly generous country gentleman. Generous with his time and his poetry. If ever you see him, please send my regards!!

Hoping to see him again on one of my upcoming trips across the big pond -- July 2001 or January 2002!!

so, if you need to know the words actually written for this or another song, happy to oblige.

Other favorites are "The Hat that Sings" - written in honor of Song and Ale in Whittlebury (wish I could be there this year!), "Sailor's Day", "That Old Death Trap" and "Moth to a Flame"

all great --

Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM

Thanks nutty, I got it just fine.

It will be interesting to compare the different tunes for this song with Derrick Gifford's own version (when the copy I ordered arrives). Actually, I'm not too concerned about it. Because this kind of music is primarily an aural tradition I never look on a written version as being exactly correct. Derreck Gifford himself may not do it the same way each time. Besides, what works for one singer may not work for another. The song is bound to go through some changes as it is passed from one person to the next.

Regards to all,
Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:54 AM

Email sent Richard but made a mess of the address 1st time round so please let me know that it has arrived OK

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:52 AM

Jeri - it was kept as simple as possible but it was also constrained by being written down . Unaccompanied songs are not constrained by strict adherence to rhythm and tend to be sung freely and with feeling as this one is. As I said - the tune is the basic one - but I am willing to send it to anyone who PM's me with an email address

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM

OK - I spent too long writing that. Now I know about the "twiddly bits."

In any case, I may revise mine, and request your critique when I've done so. My main reason for wanting to get the tune right is because I'd like to learn the song, and it will be -as Snuffy pointed out- a LONG time before the tune is available in the DT.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:44 AM

The tune that the DT will use will be nutty's, as apparently other formats than Noteworthy Composer aren't acceptable, or are less acceptable. Nutty's is somewhat different from the Johnny Collins version I transcribed - there are a few different notes and the rhythm isn't as "bouncy" as mine. The non-bounciness may just have been for expediency or to keep it simple, but it may be the way Derrik sings it.

Section in the FAQ on Paltalk

I'm "JeriJean" in Paltalk, but I'm not in there often as I rather hate some aspects of it. (The ads and the fact I have to turn off my firewall to use it.)

Another idea is to record a .wav file of a verse and chorus and e-mail it to me. I have a slow connection, and anything over a couple of megabytes takes forever for me to download. I'd be happy to have a listen.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:41 AM

Jude - I have done a noteworthy file of the tune which has been sent to Joe Offer via MMario. It's as near as I can get to the original without the "twiddly bits" - so it's just the plain tune but it's accurate.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:09 AM

Jude, the ^^ means they've been collected, but the DT is only updated twice a year - April and October. This may be in the Apr01 or possibly Oct01 update, but the Apr00 and Oct00 updates still aren't online, although they are available from Dick on CD

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:42 AM

By the way I thought the squiggle after lyrics meant they'd been collected & added to the Lyrics list but when I went to look in the Digitrad search, when all men sing isn't there . I am now a little confused. Help

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:36 AM

I've just listened to that midi file of the tune & I'm sorry folks but its some what different from the tune that is normally used & is used by Derrick. I'm no good at dots, but if someone tells me how to do the paltalk I can sing it. Jude

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:20 PM

I've created a GIF of the notation for this song from the ABC file posted earlier. A GIF is a graphic file - looks like a page of sheet music. Anyone who would like a copy can e-mail me at:

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:34 PM

In case anyone is interested, below is a link to the Chantey Cabin website. Derrek Gifford's cd is still available from them. The site is run by Ken and Jan Lardner, who act as a clearing house for performers that they know. As the name suggests most of the groups listed on the site are nautical but some of the performers, like Derrek Gifford, also have recordings out that are semi-nautical or non-nautical.

For those of us living in the States ordering from the Chantey Cabin can be somewhat costly due to overseas shipping charges but I don't mind paying a little more for something that I just can't find in the U.S. The album costs are all in English money but Ken and Jan will convert the prices into American money for you when you e-mail an order to them.


The Chantey Cabin

Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:17 PM

You know, as I think more about it, it does kinda make sense but you rarely, if ever, hear singing shift from harmony to unison.

I believe unison singing is found in parts of Ireland. I know that the famous Clancy Brothers sang mostly in unison. But Keith Scowcroft and Derek Gifford are English anyway. Is there traditional unison singing in England?

I've ordered a copy of Derek Gifford's recording through the Chantey Cabin website. Maybe I can get in touch with Gifford and ask him about it.

Hey, I just had a flash. It makes more sense, to me, if that fifth line in the last verse read "Now in unison pours forth the song." That would signify that the shift from harmony to unison were planned.


Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:52 PM

Radriano - you would need to go back to the original Keith Scowcroft poem to find the answer to that

Keith is a Poet not a song writer and the words ( particularly the words of this poem ) have been edited by Derek Gifford who then set them to music

They do make wonderful songs but are slightly different from the original

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:47 PM

I have no idea, unless he just meant everyone singing at the same time.

I've stuck the midi I did the above MidiText file from here. (Will go straight to the midi, not a web page.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:26 PM

Sorry, folks. I missed some line breaks in that last post. The verse looks like this:

Here's songs in season every year
Some voices sweet with others strong
Gently round ascending
With harmonies a-blending
In unison pours forth the song
Uplifting beams of Inn or Hall
And shaking plaster from the wall
When all men sing


Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM

This is a really great song. I'm a bit curious about the last verse though:

Here's songs in season every year
Sosme voices sweet with others strong
Gently round ascending
With harmonies a-blending
In unison pours forth the song
Uplifting beams of Inn or Hall And shaking plaster from the wall When all men sing


So we have the line "With harmonies a-blending" followed by "In unison pours forth the song." So harmonies are being sung and then suddenly no harmony and singing is in unison? Am I missing something?


Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:08 AM

Derrick Gifford - who wrote when all men sing was featured at Uxbridge FC last night - good time was had by all - and yes he did sing it . He was busy tryin to sell some of his old tapes etc before his new CD comes out.
When some men sing is by Malcom Austin - Derrick told us a tale that when he went to some club up north he sang his original - and got told "very good , now lets have the "proper" version!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 05:54 PM

MMario?

I can send you the MIDI if you want, so you don't have to go through re-translating it. --E-mail clicky

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:23 PM

have to tell you tomorrow jeri - I don't have them both in the same place.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

MMario, how similar is the MidiText tune I did to nutty's?

The verse is right according to the way Johnny Collins sang the song, but I was just guessing on the chorus.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM

She did it and it's on it's way to joe.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:42 PM

tune file e-mailed to you MMario - hope its OK

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 12:02 PM

I'll try to put it on Noteworthy but as you know I'm very slow so don't hold your breath

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 08:52 AM

Nutty - I may do that - but I cannot transcribe by ear - and this is one of the tunes we're trying to get into the database if possible.