BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies

Subject: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:46 AM

Inconsistencies: ~~

I remember when everyone speaking in an English context would pronounce two major French cities "Ma-sales" and "Lions". Nowadays, one will get looked at [and down on!] if one fails to say approximations of "Mah-r-say" and "Lee-ong"; but only the facetious or pretentious, it seems to me, will say "Paree". In Italy, it's still "Naples", not "Napoli", Florence not Firenze; but more and more "Livorno" has replaced "Leghorn". And in Russia, "Moscow" not "Moskva"; but in Georgia, "Tblisi" has completely ousted "Tiflis".

Why is this?

Leaving geography for gastronomy: the piquant sauce ~~ is it called nowadays "mayo-nays" or "my-o-nez"? And I wonder why only a pretentious person would ask for a bottle of "shom-pan-ye" in an English restaurant, but only an ignoramus would call for a bottle of "bew-jo-lays".

I was taken to task recently by an American graduate in English Literature for referring to Longfellow's famous poem about the Iriquois chief by the name I was brought up to, and which, surely, everyone calls it: approx "Higher-woth-er" . I ought, he tried to tell me, call it/him "Hee-ah-wah-tha". Frankly, I thought he was a pretentious idiot; but perhaps I am wrong at that, and ought to mend my wicked ways. Does anyone out there really say "Hee-ah-wah-tha"? Honest, now...

Comments? Further thoughts/examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:06 AM

Is it just Hollywood that pronounces the trade of a person who practices massage as "Massoose"?
Surely the original word for a female practitioner is Masseuse (masserze) and a male would be a Masseur (Masserr)
I have also wondered why the people who attend an event have become "attendees", rather than "attenders".
The ..ees suffix is generally used to describe passive participants, so the attendees should be those who are being attended to, not those who attend.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:18 AM

In Virginia, I've always hear it pronounced Hi yah wah thah.

i was told by an English professor (also a Virginian) that Henry David Thoroeau is not pronounced Thur roe, but Thur ruh with the accent on the first syllable.

Tamara (rhymes with camera)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 09:56 AM

I was met with blank incomprehension once when trying to buy a certain French perfume because I pronounced it with the correct accent ... and a similar experience happened once at the Cafe Rouge chain when I ordered in French from the French menu.

There's an element of inverse snobbery that comes in - again, I was in trouble once with a friend because I automatically pronounced the name of a wine properly (I'm sorry - I lived in France for a couple of years and did a French degree, so it's not something I think of as artificial).

But as to place names - no, it's a mystery, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:09 PM

I once complained to my California-to-the-bone son in law that when then President Reagan (long time Californian) greeted the president of Mexico with the traditional phrase: mi casa es su casa - he pronounced it 'Cazza' (not like 'pizza') - which I thought was inexcusable for someone living so close to the border.

But my son in law said: You mean, a Chinese man's name should be pronounced correctly too?

I don't know. In this country most of us don't live close to foreign language language speakers and just tend to do the best we can, I guess.

But Micca's original question still stands: Why are some foreign words readily accepted and learned while others become bastardized?

(I was a great reader very young- and had not yet learned to consult dictionaries. I remember well the teasing and ridicule I earned from my family from pronouncing 'fatigoo' (fatigue), 'Picturesquew' (picturesque) and 'caffy' (cafe) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 01:20 PM

I am surprised to hear that anyone ever acceptably said "Mar-sales" or "Lions". You'll be telling us that (outside lower military ranks) Ypres was pronounced "Wipers".

I would expect to read Longfellow's poem with an approximation of the name as he would probably have rendered it: "Higher-woth-er".

Boadicea is often a source of disagreement.

Surely "mayonnaise" is "may:naize".

What about "lingerie"?

The late father of a friend of mine could (and would) reduce a chemist's shop to a standstill for about half an hour with a lecture on classical Greek pronunciation when buying a tube of the toothpaste "Kolynos".

But the ignorance and arrogance of the Shrub fails to astound me.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM

MtheGM

"'Paree'- the old songs often used 'Paree', 'gay Paree', and that is in the back of my mind when I think of the city. In normal conversation I would use Paris, but if a friend is off to Paris, I probably would say, "Hey, off to gay Paree?"

Always hear may-o-nays. Yes, the wines are pronounced inconsistantly[cham paign, beau jo lay).

Hi-a-wa-tha was the way I got it in school; don't think I have heard differently except from Irish-influenced Boston, the last 'a' becoming 'er'. Had a mid-England friend who also used ther 'er' ending. His 'Alabam-er' caused raised eyebrows (we were both working in Texas at the time).

As an owner of a National Geographic Atlas, and a listener to BBC News channel, I am tending to lose some of the old pronunciations- so I sometimes say Lisboa, Napoli, Firenze, Alger- but not Warzawa. The BBC uses the standard English pronunciations for European cities, but tend to use the 'correct' ones for Chinese cities- Beijing I know, but the others confuse me- I know Chungking, but its correct name just confuses me.

Ebbie, ever eaten ley-too-cee?

Tho-roe' the only way I have heard it, but I have never lived in Virginia. I do remember 'Biew-fort' from SC (Beaufort).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM

Q ~~ agree re "gay Paree" ~ but surely said facetiously & tongue-in-cheek?

Richard ~ assure you re Marsales & Lions ~ how I was brought up to them in the 1930s. & there is a well-known Victorian play [by Boucicault, I think] called The Lyons Mail, definitely pronounced "Lions". But indeed never Wipers: just one of those inconsistencies I rubricate in thread title! For that matter, always Nice to sound like 'niece', not 'nice'...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM

Longfellow was a Brahmin of Boston society, he would never have put an 'er' ending on his Hiawatha.
Longerie and longeray commonly heard.
'Wipers', Mar-sail-ees, etc. occasionally heard as put-downs to F---s on the part of the politically incorrect.

Which reminds me of the British situation comedy with the couple- lower class store owners who made a bit of money and travel in Europe in their Jaguar or on 'Frogair'. It was a classic, but doesn't seem to have been released on DVD in this PC day and age.
Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:55 PM

I have been given to understand that in New York and in Maine the 'Rio' in Rio Grande was/is? pronounced 'Ryo'. I don't understand that.

'ley too cee', Q? Is that as in 'lettuce'?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:46 PM

In fact, Ebbie, not out of place on this website especially to remind that, according to such authorities as Captain Whall, Mrs Colcord, Bert Lloyd, Hugill, &c, singing sailors generally pronounced Rio as Ryo ~~ "Oh say were you ever on Ri-i-o Grand? Way-hey Ri-o!", &c.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:08 PM

Then there's "Celtic" which is hard when it's music and soft when it's football.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

But Michael, the GM, that scarcely excuses it. The word is so directly drawn from the Spanish, why would not a person pronounce it in the Spanish fashion?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:55 PM

"RyO" sings better than "ReeO". That's the way our mouths work.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM

I grant you that certain songs call for certain iteration and I sing them that way with gusto. But when the pronunciation spills over into the spoken word, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:08 PM

So how would yopu pronounce Mexico, Ebbie?
.............................

There is no consistency or identifiable pattern in these respects. Except possibly that when it comes to place names, "correct" pronunciation tends to be used for relatively unimportant places, whereas the more important ones more often tend to be given a name which has been translated, either in spelling or pronunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:28 PM

Boadicea is often a source of disagreement.

Come outside and say that...

However, the only evidence we have for her name comes from Roman writers who certainly never spoke to her, and almost certainly never spoke to anyone who knew her.

Then there's "Celtic" which is hard when it's music and soft when it's football.

Are youse calling Celtic soft? Come outside and say that...


On the general topic, since language is for communicating, it's best to match what you say to what you think others will best understand. Lots of people in Britain are familiar with places like Breave la Guy 'Ard through going there, but Paris has to be gay before it's Paree. And footballers and rugby players come from Two Loos and Leigh On, so you hear the name on the telly.

Even within Britain... how do YOU pronounce Shrewsbury? Daventry? Irlam's o' th' Height?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM

Reims can be tricky; apparently,the correct approach is to say something like " Ran Sir ".Ratatouille can be a pitfall for the unwary --"Rat A Tyoo Ee " it may well be to most English people,but I gather it's more like "Rat A Twee Er" ; add some frogs' legs and I suppose we'd be dealing with " Gron Wee Er O Rat A Twee Er". Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM

I was watching the Glasgow Munster game in Gaelic on BBC Alba, and it was interseting to hear the commentator's selection of Gaelic and English names, eg Daibhidh Blair but Fraser MacKenzie.

And have you noticed the growing number of anglophones who pronounce Caitlin as if it were Kate-Lynn?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

Rio was always Ryo to my grandparents and others in the west who came from the east and knew no Spanish. It seems to have the general American pronunciation until about WW1.
The Ryo Grande, both the river and the railroad.

Right, Ebbie- Lettuce.

I agree with McGrath, there was (and still is to a degree) little consistency in pronunciation of place names. Since radio and television, pronunciations have become more standardized.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:52 PM

Sorry. I meant the Edinburgh Munster game.

In the Glasgow game I've noticed that the commentators are pronouncing Ruairidh Jackson's name as Rory (Irish) rather than Ruari (Gaelic).

Daibhidh Ruaridh MacCoinneach.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:55 PM

How do I pronounce 'Mexico'? It depends upon with whom Italking with a Spanish speaker I say meH. Not that difficult, for a person who loves words.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:31 PM

Mexico- the x' in Mexico has two pronunciations. Most accepted is "May'-he-co, but some pronounce the 'x' close to csay or cse.
How does one spell and pronounce this Mexican city- Jalapa or Xalapa? Signage on roads to that city vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:07 PM

Manuka honey.

New Zealand pronunciation (which I presume is direct from the Maaori, but I haven't checked): MAAnooka (the first syllable is double length).

British pronunciation: mahNOOka. Which I find rather irritating.

The BBC closed its pronunciation unit under Thatcher, so there hasn't been a public source of authoritative pronunciations of foreign names in Britain for 20 years.

I suspect that the part of the world that consistently gets its names pronounced least accurately by the First World media is Africa.

I tried the standard white New Zealand English pronunciation of "Paraparaumu" into Google Voice via an iPhone last week. It's wildly wrong in Maaori terms. Google knew where I meant regardless. It would probably figure out the usual British tourist pronunciations of the Turkish beach resorts "Altinkum" and "Kusadasi" too.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM

Indiana is full of what I'll call badly echoed place names.

Milan, Indiana = MY-luhn, for instance. This is as universally pronounced by the local residents.

Versailles, Indiana = ver-SALES Again, by local residents, ALWAYS.

Lafayette, Indiana is variously rendered Lah-fee-ETT, Lay-fee-ETT, Lah-fee-ETT, and I suppose some other variants.

Terre Haute, Indiana (high ground) is Tair-HOTE, Tair-uh-HOTE, Tair-HUT, Tair-uh-HUT, and some others. (and then there are the joking references to "Terrible Hut")

I think I could almost write a book full of these Indiana place names.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:44 PM

Des Plaines, Illinois, is usually Dez Plains. Wikipedia has it as Des Pleinz.
Illinois and Iowa would add another volume to Dave's book.
Cairo, Illinois is Kay-ro. Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:50 PM

MtheGM, I knew this thread had to have been started by you!LOL!

Ebbie, my dad always said "Rye-oh" even though he knew it was supposed to be "ree - oh" though I suspect that may have been later after he'd grown up. Not sure though as his paternal granddad knew many Native American languages some of which he taught my dad before he died, so surely he knew some Spanish, too. But, he died when dad was young, so he didn't remember any of the NA languages.

...anglophones who pronounce Caitlin as if it were Kate-Lynn?

That's the only way I've heard it pronounced in the States. I know it's not correct, but I don't think the people who are naming their daughters care which is a pity, imo.

I've mentioned before, Belle Fourchette, WY which the residents pronounce bel-FOOSH; you'd be "puttin' on airs" to pronounce it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:22 AM

Thank you, dear Kat ~~ & LOL right back to you, xxx!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:16 AM

Most English people will pronounce a word ending in -a as "-er" - hence "Hiawath-er" or "Alabam-er". If a more open sound is required we'd expect it to be written "-ah"

There's not even consistency in how we mispronounce foreign names. Most English people pronounce Moscow as "Mosc-oh", whereas most Americans I've heard pronounce it "Mos-cow", to rhyme with the dairy animal.

I think the usages MthGM complained about in his original post have long died out - I was born in the '50s and I've never heard them pronounced other than "Mars-ay" and "Lee-on" - but with no pretence at a correct French accent of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:34 AM

I think "Majorka" is finally dying out!
I still hear either "Can" or "Cans" for Cannes.
I must admit that I pronounce Adulacia with the Spanish "th", and, for some daft reason, get irritated when my fellow Brits insist on the soft "c" sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:48 AM

I think that many of the British have formed an instant dislike to foreign pronounciations because of French lessons at school.
Suddenly "Peter" was expected to respond to "Pierre", "Mary" to "Marie" etc. Instant rebellion ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:53 PM

Madjorka might be dying out but Eyebeetha isn't ...The pronunciation of Caitlin is an interesting issue as at least one Caitlin of my acquaintance (who does know better, knowing some Irish)introduces herself as Kate-lin. I have a great-niece whose name is actually written Kaitlin, which drives me nuts but there we are, that's her name.
Given names are often a source of amusement and amazement. My favourite moment was when I was calling a register and got to the name Siobhan, which I pronounced (I think) correctly. There was a silence and then the small girl in question said, patiently, "Nah, it's SEEEB-HAHN, Miss".
And another school register moment ... had a lad in a notoriously difficult class whose name was Wole. He was six foot something at the age of 14 and was not a nice boy. I approached his name with great caution, as in London slang to call someone a Wally was definitely not polite, so I tentatively made it rhyme with the small black underground mammal first. Wrong choice. He corrected me in some amusement, making it indeed sound like Wally. But I have a feeling if I'd done that first off I'd have been in major trouble...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:06 PM

I tentatively made it rhyme with the small black underground mammal first.

What's "a small black underground mammal" that rhymes with "Wally"?

I'm perplexed.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:06 PM

Tunesmith, if you want to mess up your Spanish, listen to the online "Catalunya Musica," broadcasting in Catalan. I listen to their classical broadcasts quite often, since they cover early music recordings pretty well.
http:/www.carmusica.cat/index_cm.htm

Spaniards are used to the soft c sound; so many tourists and now Latin Americans visit.
In Mexico the 'th' is associated with 'gay' jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:10 PM

I'm further perplexed with

Madjorka might be dying out but Eyebeetha isn't

"Madjorka" is ludicrous, I agree, and it should indeed die out.

What would the proper spelling and/or pronunciation of "Eyebeetha" be? In 79 years, I've never heard anything like that or any variant I can imagine, I think.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

I'm a bit baffled by "Cannes". How else would you say it except "can" or "cans"?

I don't think I've ever heard an English speaker pronounce "Istanbul" right unless they'd been there. (The stress is on the second syllable).

If "Madjorka" is to be deprecated, which pronunciation do you want to replace it with? The Spanish one, the Catalan one, or the Mallorcan dialect one (which I don't know but I presume is a bit different from mainstream Catalan)?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:33 PM

Speaking as a native Mainer (or Maine-iac) I can assure you that I have never heard anyone pronounce "Ryo" but rather we say "Ree-O".

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM

Caitlin usually Kate-lin in Canada, sometimes catlin.

What is an eyebeetha?

A daughter, Sioban, answered to a school roll call as Sy-o-ban. Most non-Irish in Canada or U.S. stumble over that name. Most often pronounced So-ban. A son is named Sean, often pronounced see'-an. (Named for some great-grandparents).

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

Ibiza = eyebeetha

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:18 PM

OH, you mean Eivissa.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:30 PM

Suddenly "Peter" was expected to respond to "Pierre"

That's not that different from the way Peter tends to be pronounced in Estuary English, with the t being dropped.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Michael
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM

My daughter is a Siobhán and gets all sorts of mumbled gargle.

I had a Sian in a class (teenage girl); she was See-ann.

All so had a Chavaunne (parents had obviously heard it.)

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:01 PM

Outside Portland, Oregon, is a tavern with a sign announcing it to be 'The Elite'. Locals frequent the 'Elight' Tavern.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM

Q: typo alert. You mean this:

http://www.catmusica.cat

I fancied getting myself a .cat domain but I'd have to translate my site's text into Catalan to be eligible.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:05 PM

Pronunciation is one thing, but why-O-why is Marseilles plural in English and singular in French? You don't even pronounce that spurious S...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:47 PM

Listening to "L'ocell de foc" on Catmusica now.
Tomorrow I think they will broadcast "El llac dels cignes" by Piotr Ilitx Txaikovski.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:01 PM

N'awlins--- that city that the hurricane hit several years ago.

When I lived in Wichita, the rivers that met there were the little and big Ar-KAN-sas...and the name for the merged river remains that way until you follow it 100 miles or so southeast...then it become the Ar-kan-saw.

In St Louis, we drove on streets called "Gravois" (Gra-voice) and "Cabanne Place" (Cabiny)...you'd never know there was a French history to the place to listen to the natives.

Back when there was much trouble in Central America during Reagan's time, I got SO weary of several English reporters telling me about Nick-uh-RAG-you-uh.

and even now, I am befuddled by those who make no effort to pronounce 'Iraq' correctly, even though it is not hard to do. It is NOT "Eye-rack".

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:50 PM

I guess I've always assumed that Des Moines Iowa was pronounced in something like the proper French, (Dee Moyne). But it's not that far from there to Des Plaines Illinois. Is either pronunciation actually defensible?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: GUEST,marks(on the road)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:52 PM

And the largest city in Maryland is Ballamer, er, Ballmo, er, Crabtown.
Decendents of the English nobleman, Lord Baltimore, would not be amused!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:56 AM

>>Pronunciation is one thing, but why-O-why is Marseilles plural in English and singular in French? You don't even pronounce that spurious S...<<

Well, in a way this is where I started this thread. My point was that when I was young the city of Marseille had an English name, Marseilles, pronounced Marsales ~~ I was not 'complaining' of this, as someone suggests above, but simply drawing attention to the fact that it had an English name different from its native one: just as 'Moskva' has the English name Moscow, 'Yerushaliyim' has the English name Jerusalem, 'Firenze' has the English name Florence, &c &c.{&, for that matter, the French & Italians have their own names for London} ~~ while other places don't have these variants; & that, in the cases of Lyon, Marseille, &c, these distinctions had dropped out, tho Paris remains in its Anglicised form in normal usage.

None knows why ~~ but I just found the question of interest: & so, to judge from the flourishing of the thread, do others.

So keep 'em coming...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: beeliner
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:07 AM

San Jose, Illinois is pronounced "San Joe's", and New Berlin, IL is "New BURL'n"

When someone from out-of-state pronounces the 's' on the end of Illinois, an Illinoisan will make a 'shushing' motion with finger to lips and say softly, "There's no noise in Illinois!"

Internationally, Americans often wonder whether it's "CopenHAHgen" or "CopenHAYgen". It's actually not even close to either, but something more like "KURbenHOWN"

And then the age-old problem of whether the capital of Florida is pronounced "My-AM-mee" or "Mee-AH-mee". It's actually pronounced "Tal-la-hass-ee".

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:40 AM

My native city is traditionally pronounced Embro, not to be confused with Edinburg, Texus.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:48 AM

Most of the foreign places which have acquired English names seem to places of particular significance - major cities and seaports. Most of these seem to be simply mispronunciations of the native names - it is easy to see how "Firenze" might mutate into "Florence" in an English mouth, especially when it's been passed around a few times. Once it gets written down, that name tends to stick.

We should also remember that the modern pronunciation in the foreign language may have altered from the time the English version was adopted. Was the "s" in Paris sounded in mediaeval French?

I grew up in Essex not far from Billericay (Bill-er-ICK-ee, although the "ck" is usually replaced by a glottal stop these days), famous as one of the gathering places of the Pilgrim Fathers before joining the Mayflower. When they arrived in Massachusetts, they named a settlement there "Billerica" - reflecting its 17th Century spelling and pronunciation. These things aren't fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:58 AM

The small black underground mammal was a mole ...the point was to avoid saying "Wally" as my first attempt in case it caused offence.

Yes, Eyebeetha is Ibiza, in the usual way that people round here refer to it for holidays and night clubs and a style of music, even. Maybe there's a connection with Eyerack?

Sometimes the English name for a place (such as Florence for Firenze) is the same in other languages (such as French), which might indicate a bit more history to the re-naming. Most languages have some different names for places in them ... in Welsh, for example, London becomes Llundain, and there are a number of other English cities with Welsh versions. So it's not just mis- or different pronunciation that's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM

Áth Cliath for Dublin takes some beating.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 08:30 AM

Tha mi a Dun Eideann (anglicized as Dunedin) with Gaelic Dun and Germanic Burgh being interchangeable historically. Originally the British used the same form of the name, but later replaced 'din' with 'caer' which is usually the equivalent of chester (cester, caster etc).

In the west, Norse kirk and Gaelic kil were interchangeable until modern times.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:16 PM

Originally the British used the same form of the name, but later replaced 'din' with 'caer'

Surely "caer" would be from British/Welsh, with Dun being from Gaelic..

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

The point being, British/Welsh was around in Great Britain before Gaelic speakers arrived from Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:54 PM

Dun is the Gaelic form and it's British cognate is Din as in Denbigh (cf Dun beag). Caer, I believe is derived from the Latin 'caster', hence it's appearance in place names where there has been a Roman fortress, eg Cramond, Caer (Chester).

Edinburgh was a din in the time of the Votadini (y Gododdin) but as I said, in Modern Welsh it has become Caeredin.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM

how "Firenze" might mutate into "Florence" in an English mouth

It was Florentia before Rome fell, then Italicised to Firenze. It's arguable that Naples is nearer Neapolis than Napoli is. It's astounding how names persist- Nablus is another Neapolis, despite Byzantine, Arab, Norman, Ottoman, British and Israeli occupations (I almost forgot the Mongols). And London is still London, despite Augustus.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 01:50 PM

London is only still London in English, though (and German)... as I said above, it's Llundain in Welsh, Londres in French and oh, whatever it is in Spanish, Italian, Greek and so on - but not London.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:22 PM

Laundress in French

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM

And then there's Arkansas - which for some reason is pronounced Arkinsaw??? Why??

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:35 PM

Beause people from there are Arkansawyers.
It came from an Indian name. The French explorers gave it their rendition of the Indian name (the Mississippi River forms most of the eastern boundary, and it was governed from New Orleans in the early days). It was part of the Louisiana Purchase bought from Napoleon.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Slag
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:38 AM

We used "man'-ehs" on sand-whiches at our house. To me the New England accent is foreign. Why do they say "A" for "R" and "R" for "A"? They claim to live somewhere in Armericur, wherever that is.

I want my attorney to practice law (that's "La" as in La la la) and not "loy" as for those who are want to say Loy-yer.

via is vee-uh, not vye-uh

I don't mean to be de-vye-iv (devisive) nor duh-viss-iv.

May-hee-co= Mexico
Tay-haus= Texas (originally)

The Greek gets butchered more than any other language.

But I'm doing well just to be understood with my "Cali-Okie" accent so I can't complained.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:22 AM

Anne, Llundain doesn't strike me as being too far removed from London, especially in its earlier forms of Londinium, Lunderwic and Lunderburgh.

Not only have the names and spellings of places changed over time, but the pronunciation of both the native and foreign languages may also have changed. Add to that the difficulty most people have in pronouncing foreign words.

It seems entirely possible that, for example, the French "Londres" once represented a fair attempt by someone whose native language was mediaeval (or earlier) French to imitate whatever London was then called in Anglo-Saxon. Once the word gets written down (also bearing in mind that the rules of spelling weren't yet established), it will then be pronounced like that by people who have never heard it spoken by a native speaker. Over time, they diverge until they bear little resemblance to each other in the modern versions of the two languages.

I grew up calling the Chinese city "Peking". Then it was decided that the established method of transcribing Chinese into the Western alphabet was incorrect, and it became "Beijing". These are both attempts to represent the same word. I suspect that the way it's pronounced by a native of the city is different from either version.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:33 AM

Howard, the same can be said of all the city names we've been discussing. The OP question was why are we so inconsistent about which names and words remain true (no matter where you are) to the way a native speaker would say them and which acquire different pronunciations (spellings will follow pronunciation, generally speaking). London is definitely not pronounced the English way here when spoken in Welsh, any more than it is in Italy, France and Spain, for example - but some place names will retain their essential pronunciation no matter where you are. And it's still unclear to me at least why this is.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

It's usually only the most significant locations which acquire their own names in other languages - usually major cities and seaports with whom there was regular contact from distant times. I've already put forward my theory why these sometimes differ from the local names. Once in use, these get established in the language.

Other places may only have come to our notice recently, and so the local name will be used, although not necessarily the local pronunciation. In these cases people may have come across the name first in print, and attempt to pronounce them according to the rules of their own language. It doesn't take long for mispronunciations to become established, for example Eye-beetha, Majorka and Eye-rack as mentioned earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:09 PM

Howard ~~ I have lived for a while in Beijing and my first wife worked there for a couple of years. The natives there pronounce it as we do: Bay-djing~~ note that the J is hard as in Jack or Jazz, not soft as in French Je or as in the famous Russian dancer transliterated as Nijinsky, as some smartarses seem for some reason to imagine is correct.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM

Michael, you've rather proved my point - after years of calling it "Peking" we were told it should now be called "Beijing", with a soft j. Closer to the actual name, but still wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:48 PM

The natives there pronounce it as we do: Bay-djing

A classic example of the trap it is so easy to fall into - assuming that the "we" to which we belong is somehow the norm. Because that's certainly not how I'd be likely to pronounce it. (I might change now, assuming some indignant Chinese Mudcatter turns up and and disagrees with MtheGM on this point.)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:17 PM

McGrath -- "Then there's "Celtic" which is hard when it's music and soft when it's football"
Not in our household. It's "seltic" all the way and always.
Probably the only place left on the planet.
True-Love was a linguist and he can never let "Keltic" go by. Unless people are willing to write it down and spell it with a "K". Which would fit with classical rules, but slow down the conversation.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:40 PM

. Unless people are willing to write it down and spell it with a "K".

You can do that in English to avoid confusion - but there is no K in the Scottish, Irish,or for that matter Welsh, alphabets - and in all these C is pronounced as in Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 04:51 AM

'Celtic' can be pronounced with both a hard and soft 'c' - both are correct. The hard 'c' is probably more correct etymologically, since the word probably derives from Latin and Greek, whereas the soft c follows the convention in English that 'c' followed by 'e' is usually soft.

However, in the UK at least, for some considerable time the convention has been to use the hard 'c', except when talking about the Scottish football team.