BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress

Subject: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:14 PM

Here TUC Congress: Public will back us against cuts - Barber

All they will do if they go on strike is reduce this country to a similar state to that which Greece is in now.
The pound will drop, the country's credit rating will be reduced, and the threatened double dip recession will be the most likely outcome.
It appears to me that what they are saying is this.
Please coalition government, don't ruin the country.
Let us do it for you!




Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:39 PM

When it comes to ruining the country the coalition government is way way ahead...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Lox
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:57 PM

Well John,

It seems you haven't read the article fully.

The only mention of a strike was in this sentence.

"But she said no-one was talking about a general strike - which unions cannot organise as they each have to ballot their members separately."

Hmm ...

ok - so what is your point ...


That they are wrong to speak out about the fact, as published by the IFS (institute of Fiscal Studies) that the poorest in society, working in the lowest paid jobs, are bearing the largest burden in the cuts?


Oh - should I take it that you think the poor should be punished?

And the the bankers should be paid bigger bonuses?


You do realize that when the government beiled out the banks it made the taxpayer the biggest shareholder ...

we pay their wages ...

we saved their jobs ...

and we are being taxed more than ever to pay them highere wages and bonuses than they earned before the crunch ...


Do you think thats right?



ok then John.

Its madness to criticize that isn't it.

And to do so is something that only a dyed in the wool socialist would dream of.













.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

By comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:05 PM

Here they come!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:09 PM

Speaking of which...While surfing some classical music on Youtube, I came across this, before the actual video started......


Something for the next generation....

Politicos, don't watch, you won't 'get it' anyway....

gfS

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

John MacKenzie

Here they come!

Because I gave a link to a Daily Mail article?!?

Try this one - Conservative Home

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:17 PM

Nope, didn't read your link mate, as I expect it's a bit biased.


"And RMT union leader Bob Crow called for a campaign of "civil disobedience" in protest at spending cuts."

"The RMT is asking the TUC to back calls for co-ordinated industrial action "to defend jobs, pensions and conditions".

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:27 PM

John MacKenzie

Nope, didn't read your link mate, as I expect it's a bit biased.

The Daily Mail and Conservative Home? Yeah, I'd expect them to be a bit biased.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

Rubbish John. You're a bit gullible about the bankers' cries of crisis, and you've obviously forgotten how well they performed just a couple of years ago. If we are "all in it together" (which I rather doubt), the surplus fat from the rich should be cut long before the necessities of the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

All reporting is biased. The article I linked to is on a BBC site, which tends to be less so. Although I find the BBC as a whole has a left wing bias. Just a wee lean, mind you :)
Anyway, I'm apolitical, but I can't help but think that any industrial action will be counter productive.
As it is in most cases anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Lox
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:18 PM

er .... GfS .....


Um ... Smetana was a nationalist composer ....


not left wing ...


The piece you chose was from a series of tone poems called "my fatherland" ...


I'm afraid that from a political and from a musical point of view its entirely irrelevant ...

... I studied it ... I know ...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:47 PM

Excuse me if I join in this flaming trollfest.


Isn't it obvious the economy is in big trouble?
That being the case, the revenue required to keep it afloat for a few more years before we all belong to Indian and Chinese masters....will have to be procured from the poorest sections of society in tax hikes and loss of services/benefits.
Taxing the very rich till they squeal is a joke, they have too many loopholes and are too few in number to make a significant difference to the exchequer.

Every time Capitalism fucks up the poor pay!....just like we all payed to bail out the banking system.
We deserve all we get for believing the shit politicians feed us.

In todays paper, Fidel admitted the Cuban model has failed in many respects....and that model is as near to socialism as we are ever likely to see.

We need something completely different....maybe we should ask Monty Python?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

GfS - you're right, as I certainly don't "get" the point of your link. Google regularly changes the ads prefacing its sponsored videos on YouTube, so what I saw was a pointless ad for L'Oreal Skin Cleanser which is probably completely different from what you wanted to direct me to. The music that followed was an abysmally bland performance of Die Moldau/ Vlatava by Smetana with a badly made video of out-of-focus sunlight on a flowing stream. Here is some wonderful music being prostituted to sell soap, and to promote "relaxation".

Why not listen instead to this recording from 1950: Toscanini conducts Smetana Ma Vlast No.2: Vltava? This isn't music as a tranquilliser; it is there to inspire, excite, entertain and interest you.

Anyway, John MacKenzie has set out his stall by titling this thread 'Blind Stupidity', and calling any disagreement "doctrinaire left-wing backlash". He has made it clear that he doesn't want to start a discussion, but means rather to provoke a reaction - in which he has already succeeded!

However I'm going to give him some discussion points whether he wants them or not.

The BBC report he linked to from the Trades Union Congress (TUC) meeting in Birmingham, does not state that unions have adopted a policy of strikes in opposition to anticipated cuts by the UK coalition government. Brendan Barber, the TUC leader, is quoted in the report as saying that "unions would reach out to the wider community to form a "progressive alliance" to make the case for alternatives to spending cuts." Other union leaders are certainly considering industrial action as an option to defend services, but at the moment they and the TUC are providing the most effective counter argument to the goverernment's claim that cuts are inevitable. There is a choice ahead of us; it is clear that the government is using the plea of economic necessity to make the cuts it wants to make.

The leaks coming out of government circles into the press indicate that the most severe impact of spending cuts will be on the elderly, the poor, the sick, the disabled, the North, and on women and children. The wealthy in the South-East won't be touched. Far from the BBC having a left-wing bias, it is helping to soften up public opinion by reporting on The Public Spending Review which examines what cuts will be made.

I'm a public servant, and I'm proud to be one. I support adults with learning disabilities to gain independence, and to live meaningful lives. I want to protect them, and I want to defend my job. My knowledge, skills and experience are there to help them. I don't intend to see that thrown away to protect bankers and marketmakers. I don't want to strike as that will hurt the very people I look after - but I would do so if that becomes the only way to save them from being the victims of "market forces".

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:13 PM

OK, I deleted all the name-calling posts, and all posts that referred to the name-calling posts. I'm not going to bother investigating this argument - I'm just going to do away with it.

Now, please go back to the original topic of discussion, and keep it civil.

Thank you.
-Joe Offer-

I added to the thread title to give some idea of the actual topic of discussion, but I don't really know what this is about. Suggestions for a better thread title are appreciated (by Personal Message). Thanks to Matthew Edwards for explaining that TUC = Trades Union Congress. Now, is it possible to discuss this matter without bludgeoning each other to a pulp?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:12 AM

I predicted a left wing backlash, and I got it, as expected.
The reason I said that was because I find those of doctrinaire tendencies, tend to argue from within the rules of their own particular doctrine, and are blind to any other points of view.
The situation this country is in requires thought, and not just a knee jerk reaction.

"The RMT is asking the TUC to back calls for co-ordinated industrial action "to defend jobs, pensions and conditions".
Bob Crow

That's the sort of knee jerk reaction I'm talking about,

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:31 AM

I'm not sure what concerted industrial action would achieve. Like it or not, we are stuck with this government for the next four and a half years.

I agree with the view that the 'financial crisis' is being used as a means of covering up the Tory agenda to attack the public sector anyway, and what makes it worse in my opinion is that at the same time they are maneuvering the third sector to do their bidding.

In my viewit will be the weakest and most disadvantaged in society that will suffer most - including those in part-time low paid work who can barely get by at the moment. Industrial action, tends to be a the powerful meeting the powerful head-on. The government has nopthing to lose if services grind to a standstill, particularly as Middle England constituences decide the outcome of elections - the inner cities who don't support the government anyway would be hardest hit. The government bringing the disadvantaged to its knees, and the unions giving them a kick in the teeth for good measure.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:33 AM

And as expected, John has made absolutely no attempt to read, let alone engage with, let alone comprehend, any of the posts in this thread.

In fact, he hasn't even taken the time to read the article he posted.

So what is left?

Nothing - other than john sitting with a smug grin on his face, his fingers in his ears - well one of them anyway (the other is tickling his prostate gland) shouting LA LA LA at the top of his voice.

Where are the nurses when you need them ... oh I forgot ... they've all been sacked!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM

"Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!! "

Well, what do you expect from right wing doctrinaire stupidity. Their policies are simply based on outmoded and unworkable economics. As anyone who has run a successful business will know, this is the way to head straight for bankruptcy, as has been stated by certain members of the Bank of England Monetary Policy comittee. Use sensible cost-cutting measures, sure, but concentrate more on generating income. What this mess of a government has so far managed to do (in record time) is instil a sense of doom and gloom that discourages spending, investment and will extend the recession far longer. It's time for tax cuts and more employment instead of throwing people onto dole queues.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:16 AM

Fact. Every advantage I have had in life has come from the democratic party.
Fact. The republican party has never done one thing for the benefit of the working man.

All else is commentary.

There should be two big statues in Washington; one of FDR for Social Security,
and one for LBJ for Medicare.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:03 AM

We need to raise the basic rate of income tax. We need to fight all public sector cuts, not just for saving the jobs of school, health and local authority workers but also because many jobs in the private sector rely on a strong public sector. It's an illusion to think that the private sector will take over the reins - it too will be crippled by public sector cuts. The economy has to grow, which would go a long way to reducing the deficit, but this government is going to make that a near-impossibility. You can't grow unless people spend money, and you're not going to spend money if your pension is frozen or delayed, if your annuity is worth diddley, if your savings don't make you anything, if you're out of work, if you're on short time, if there's a threat of redundancy, if your pay is frozen, if there is a swingeing VAT increase, if you feel insecure about the future. I note from the news this morning that banker bonuses are right back up to pre-crunch levels, whilst the ConDems are simultaneously attacking welfare. How normal. The trade unions would be in dereliction of their duties if they stood by and let all this happen without a fight. Not words, not just giving your point of view - a fight. I should like the original poster to give me his alternatives. Just let this deluded government get on with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM

The lunatic right have learned nothing from Keynes.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 09:26 AM

I'm asking for YOUR contribution to the discussion, not a series of links to articles which chime with your point of view, or prove your prejudices.
Too many people on this web site, rely on cut and paste for their, rebuttals, or confirmation.
Yes, I agree, income tax should rise, I have said this before, and indirect taxation should be reduced, as it hits those on fixed or low incomes, unfairly.
I also think double taxation, like VAT and Excise Duty being levied on the same items. Road fuel for instance, due to the escalator [now dead]has reached stupendous levels of taxation.
Striking, or looking for excuses to do so, will solve nothing. In the same way as stamping your foot shows you're frustrated, but doesn't lessen that frustration.
Nor will scatalogical and personal insults solve anything, they merely show the juvenility of the person who uses them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 09:46 AM

Well I've never been a masochist. I don't believe I should take the beating for someone else's mistakes and folly. I don't blame others when life goes wrong for me and I don't expect others to pay for my mistakes. This is what it really boils down to. Mis-management by highly paid, greedy people both in government of all political colours and big business. Quite frankly why should any of us that have nothing to do with this mess be forced to pay for their mistakes and greed?

So John, this comment is a left wing backlash iand it is about portioning blame and consequence.

Left to me, I would strip those to blame of their assetts and give them £65 a week to live on as they expect others to have to do. I would make the price of failure by these people so high so they would have to walk round the streets with sack cloth and bells and oh yes, I would give their houses to Roumanian Gipsies. Hows that for knee jerk? Ah yes,I would publically flog Bliar.

And as Kendall said and we ordinary people should remember the only freedoms we have in this country (and his)have been fought for by ordinary people, many times with their lives over hundreds of years. How long before common man got the right to vote? How long before women got the right to vote? How long before holidays became statutory and eventually paid leave? Were it not for trade unions then wages would remain at pitifully low levels. The houses we live in would be tied to the jobs we do and children would still be sent down the pit. You are a Scot John, do you really believe you should pay homage and fealty to the Laird?

The trade unions have done much that was wrong and worse is the hypocrasy of the leadership that sends people out on strike and still takes full pay but unless ordinary people stand up and say we should not pay for the mistakes of others. We are not here to fund your indulgent lifestyle and provide benefits for your comfort whilst you carry on ripping us off, what else are we to do?

Before anyone shouts that the country is full of benefit cheats, immigrants and scroungers (As made centre of the hate campaign by the media) I know much is wrong, however this government is not the cure and it, like previous ones does not address the cause.

You got any savings? Not worth a lot are they? You get a pension? Isn't worth much is it nowadays? Like the cost of fuel and food as it is? Make the most of it because if you think it is expensive now, it'll go sky high in January when the VAT increase kicks in.

In conclusion to this leftish doctrinaire rant. I'd sooner spend my taxes helping some unfortunate who has lost their job than give another penny to some rich, undeserving scumbag to waste on their champagne lifestyle.

Nobody voted for a Cameron Clegg party.

OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM

In reality. Outright striking will do very little other than hurt those low paid workers whose union will call them out on stike pay. It will not change policy and only lead to increased pay for the police who will rub their hands at the chance of huge overtime payments and the chance to exercise their muscle.(In the miners strike many officers paid off their mortgages and or had really great summer holidays)

Huge civil disobedience will only give rise to the mob and again, the police will come off best.

The anti poll tax demonstrations did make a difference and perhaps getting enough people on the streets peacefully might sway political opinion.

Whilst we remain divided as a population we are easy to control. The rich and powerful people,behind government, those who drive the economic agenda along in the background continue to hide behind the political body. Rich and don't care, they are the ones who need most action against. If people strike, they only hurt their fellows in some way. The strikes if there are to be, need to be in the private industries, not the public ones. Cutting nurses, cleaners all manner of local government workers is old hat. They have always been the target and with predictable results. The private sector is where it will really hurt.

The low paid industrial,blue collar and white collar workers will suffer as badly as the public sector when the cuts bite deeper. Small businesses will go to the wall and there will be more unemployed needing more benefits. We are I think going to be set into a downward spiral.

When you say "Income tax shoulkd rise", do mean the upper levels/rates or generally across the boards. The low paid are alreay highly taxed (So mmuch for Clegg's tax threshold of £10,000.00) Most people see their hard earned wage taxation wasted by successive governments. Our taxes are squandered, wasted, propping up a banking system where huge bonuses are given to a select few on top of huge salaries. Where billions are spent on keeping two armies in illogical, ill concived wars and supporting an underclass that could have been avoided were it not for the right wing approach of the seventies. Given to feckless and greedy top civil servants and MP's etc etc. We need a radical rethink of political direction. Given that communism isn't a viable system. The poorly attempted socialist vision only left us in this mess and the push towards right wing capitalism that is rearing it's head and has only ever failed in recent times what is there?

No matter what, we can not sit by while the rich and powerful drive us back to pre war poverty and working conditions. Haven't we moved further forward than that?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:44 AM

"Striking, or looking for excuses to do so, will solve nothing."
Then what, in your opinion, will?
The government is not going to tax the rich to fill the vast hole in the economy caused by the greed and incompetence of those who control our lives. Instead, they will attempt to take more from us, cut the minimum wage, close hospitals, reduce pensions......
Nor will they attempt to stop bankers giving themselves huge bonuses out of our money, rather they will tell us that we have to pay for the best - little more than rubbing our noses in the heap of shit THEY have made of the economy.
In the half century I spent working for a living I never once had an employer come up and say to me "I've done well this year - take a rise in wages"; rather it was "take what you're given or go and find somewhere else".
The only negotiating power I ever had was my skill as a tradesman and the right to withdraw it.
The only "blind stupidity" would be not to recognise that right and be prepared to exercise it.
Perhaps you might like to suggest an alternative? If not, your statements are nothing more than a right-wing rant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

Clegg's £10000 threshhold was cobblers. There are droves of people at the very bottom end who would not benefit from that anyway. I think the rate should rise across the board, instead of raising VAT and national insurance. In fact, I'd even like to see VAT go back down to 15% or lower to get people spending money on stuff. Putting VAT up just after Christmas when people will be feeling skint is just about the stupidest idea I've ever heard. I don't know the maths of it but why not put the rate back to 25%, the pre-Thatcher rate? At least income tax has some relationship with the ability to pay. You could have three tiers instead of two which would help protect the lowest earners. Cutting jobs and services just means more people with less money to spend and less revenue for the government, so growth will be prevented, or worse. There's your potential downward spiral. God knows what we can do about all that other stuff in your last paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

That was to eric.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:26 AM

I agree with the majority of your post Eric, especially the first paragraph where you state, "Mis-management by highly paid, greedy people both in government of all political colours and big business."
It is all too common for the blame to be lumped unfairly on one side or the other. Some people's response would appear to be almost invariably, blame Maggie Thatcher, knee jerk again!
In reality they are all in the thrall of big business, in fact Tony Blair would have loved to be even more in with them, as he was desperate to lessen the influence of the trades unions on his New Labour invention.
Seems odd to try to cut out those who started a a party, from that party, but there you go. A better man with faith in his politics, would have started a new party.
No Jim it's not a right wing rant, it's realism.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

I think that David Blanchflower has the right idea when he urges the governemt to give workers a tax holiday for two years and reduce NIC to 5%. This, he says, "would revive economic growth and probably reduce the size of the budget deficit in the long run as it would increase Government revenue." A bit too radical for this government's regressive thinking, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

Maybe it is time for a bit of mob rule?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:56 AM

Richard, I think the unions need to tread carefully. I'm sure this government would have no compunction about employing Thatcherite methods such as using the police as a repressive (and aggressive) force to attack protesters.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:13 PM

"No Jim it's not a right wing rant, it's realism. "
The realism for us is that they have closed our local A&E and are now proposing to close a whole hospital
Still waiting for your alternative instead of 'they should...' (which they won't, of course).
The latest economic report says that it could take ten years to sort out the present mess CAUSED BY THEIR GREED AND MISMANAGEMENT - and then we can return to where we were two years ago.
In the meantime, (as those reports which have refused to look at show) those who caused the crash continue to reward themselves astronomical bonuses - is that your solution?
Sorry John - it's a right-wing rant, as more than adequately proved by; "invariably, blame Maggie Thatcher"
General Pinochet's friend systematically set out to smash the trades unions, thus taking away what little voice we had in our lives.
As I said, a right wing rant with arguments like that (and heroes like that).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM

Sorry Steve, which bit and in which context?

I agree Clegg's £10,000 was an attempt at a vote catching bribe which I didn't believe anyway. I've never liked VAT. It was a replacement of purchase/sales tax.I agree that a lower rate of VAT would encourage people to spend more. It was introduced in Britain in 1973, at a standard rate of 10 per cent, In July 1974, the standard rate was reduced to 8 per cent, and four months later a higher rate - 25 per cent - was introduced on petrol. Two years later, this rate was reduced to 12.5 per cent.Under thatcher, the higher rate was abolished in 1979 and a unified rate of 15 per cent introduced. Since then it has been continually extended in the goods and services it applies to. Putting it up to 20% as you say, especially at a time when families will be hit the hardest is more than stupid. It is a social slap in the face for the lower and modestly paid and makes a political point from a right wing government.

The base rate at 0.5% has starved small and modest savers of any return but kept those with mortgages in housing (Unlike the thatcher years when it rose to around 16% and reposessions abounded) Savers with large amounts to invest have always found ways of moving their money around to advantage.

"don't know the maths of it but why not put the rate back to 25%, the pre-Thatcher rate?" I don't understand that bit, are you suggesting that we go back to a sales tax of 25% on everything?

I do know this, that under the last tory government when public utility services were sold off to the rich there were huge job losses. That put many hard working people on a lifetime of unemployment in the name of efficiency. I never considered it efficient to take work away from someone who was productive and put them onto social benefits paid for by the tax payer. It ruins lives and futures.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

Sorry, eric, I meant a 25% income tax rate. I'm not having a good day on the clarity front. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM

Sorry Jim, it was said as an example of the sloppy thinking, some people indulge in.
If you wish to characterise my posts as right wing, feel free. However I think you'll find I agree with many of the things you believe in too, we just disagree on the method of opposition.
What would I do?
I would scrap Trident, and I would opt out of the the nuclear club.
I would encourage smaller families, by means of a reward system via taxation. I would bring in a luxury tax, and reduce taxation on essentials. I would means test universal benefits. Why should millionaires be entitled to the Winter Fuel Allowance, Child Allowance, or a bus pass, should they wish to apply for one.
There should be an upper income threshold which disqualifies people from ALL state benefits.
None of these ideas impact on the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM

"I would scrap Trident, and I would opt out of the the nuclear club."
Sorry John - I asked you to suggest an alternative, not what YOU would do- you, as the rest of us, have no control whatever in what THEY do or are doing.
You chose to describe some effort by the trades unions towards our having a voice in our present situation as "blind stupidity", therefore we can only assume that your suggestion as what we can do is bend over and be shafted - do I have that right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:58 PM

Disingenuous of John to dismiss any response to his hysterical assessment, in advance, as a "doctrinaire left-wing backlash." So satisfied was he that he would provoke such a reaction that he waited for only three restrained responses - one of which he didn't even bother to look at - before gleefully claiming "here they come!" As our moderator has had to intervene to clean up this thread, it would seem that John duly achieved his objective and will be feeling rather pleased with himself.

On the question of the TUC's blind stupidity, other posters, including those moderate early ones, have pointed out that the prevailing mood was for protest and campaigning rather than for Bob Crow's preferred route of industrial action (although industrial action does not necessarily mean strike action). Meanwhile the deals still being struck for bank leaders who were instrumental in creating the present crisis continue to be obscene and provocative, to the extent that they have been condemned by opposition and government politicians alike.

But for simple-minded, innocently apolitical John, it is the TUC which is guilty of blind stupidity.

If I gently suggest that the balance between going for growth and paying down the deficit has been tilted too far in favour of paying down the deficit, I am in line with David Blanchflower and - again - many politicians and many intelligent analysts. That doesn't mean I would be right, just that it's a reasonable point of view. But for John, rooted in his prejudgment, that would be a "doctrinaire leftwing" response.

And it would be futile to question a government that promised (and later claimed to have delivered) a progressive budget when in fact it turned in a regressive budget. John has already provided his response at the top of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

The public sector unions seem to think that public sector jobs are sacrosanct. Fair enough, that's what they're there to protect. However the reality is that savings have to be made - anyone who's had any dealings with the public bodies knows too well that they're monstrously inefficient. The private sector has been forced to cut jobs for some time - why should the public sector be immune? Why should someone be paid public money to do a job which is not necessary?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:27 PM

Three words: inequality, inequality, inequality.

The Con-dems ludicrous idea of the 'Big Society' (read 'Big Profits from Society') is about to roll a wrecking ball through the very heart of our actual society. Aside from the possible irreversible damage the welfare state might sustain (and I agree it does need reform) we are going to find our schools, healthcare system and our very culture being delivered into the hands of capitalists, and that is appallingly news. Remember, capitalism is about turning a profit, not altruism.

As the Thatcherite-lite goons of New Labour have only added to the gap between rich and poor I'm not sure what choice the left has but to proscribe some sort of action. Although I'm not much of fan of strikes I think Bob Crow's idea of mass civil disobedience has some merit and I'd be in favour.

Once we loose many of these services, it's going to be very difficult to ever get them back.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM

Prescribe, not proscribe.

"The big society" is a dogwhistle for getting the poor to do at their own expense what the government should be doing and paying for. It's an opt-out for the rich robber barons.

If Poland can dethrone an oppressive regime, so can we.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:28 PM

I don't know what the alternative is in that case, but I still think strikes are self defeating, they don't just harm governments, they harm all of us.
What do they hope to achieve by going on strike anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM

"Prescribe, not proscribe."

Oops! Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:50 PM

The thing that makes this so offensive is that we, the public, are the mojority shareholder in the banks that were bailed out.

Thats how it worked.

We bought the banks to save them from ruin.

There is nothing stopping the government from cutting the bonuses and taking a share of the profits.

Instead, they continue to pay the idiots who ran them into the ground and are doing untold damage to both society and the economy.


Yes folks - be in no doubt - the bonuses are being paid by us - we own the banks - we pay the wages - we pay the bonuses.

In what other company can you imagine the shareholders being taxed to compensate for the excesses of their employees, after having bought them out of trouble.



The mind boggles just how bad this would have been if there were no libs in there to at least engage in "lively discussion"

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM

"but I still think strikes are self defeating,"
Sorry again John - a meaningless slogan of those who have no need to take such measures to get a decent standard of living or reasonable working conditions. Strikes are difficult, create hardships and are often degrading and dehumanising, but they can be extremely effective; as can just the threat of one. And if they're all you've got, well, they're all youve got.
Anybody who has been on strike will tell you that the decision to go on strike is not taken lightly, and is only resorted to when all else fails
I've been on strike only twice in my working life; as an apprentice on the Liverpool docks, against the use of apprentices as labourers and tea lads, and as an electrician, against being forced to work with cancerous asbestos without protective clothing and masks. In the case of the latter, I'm proud to say that our victory ensured that me and my fellow workers (and those who came after us) didn't end our days with lungs like sponges, breathing into a bag.
You fail to come up with a solution - how about if our elected trades union officials became fully involved as consultants in any programme to see the country out of the mess we're in THROUGH NO FAULT OF OUR OWN?
One would wish for a Trades Union leadership that hadn't climbed into the pockets of the establishment, attracted by promises of seats in the House of Lords or on boardrooms, but as before, if that's all you've got, it's all you've got.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:31 PM

However, it begins to seem as if the TUC has (unlike the Con-Doms) principles, even if we in the UK are mostly too scared by Thatcher's union-smashing legislation to join the European general strike.

Jim - on this thread, more power to your elbow!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:41 PM

Convert the banks we have bailed out to mutual societies so that the executives are accountable to the account holders rather than the shareholders.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

Well, we shall see what happens, but my mind goes back to the miner's strike, were a lot of bitterness was engendered, a lot of lives were blighted, and in the end, nobody won any more than they had been offered at the beginning.
We mustn't get into that macho culture situation again.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM

Somebody mentioned Cuba earlier in the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM

"but my mind goes back to the miner's strike,"
So does mine - do you want to tell us how many pits were closed, how many mining communities were destroyed and how many men lost their jobs because Pinochet's friend was allowed to use the police force as a private army and managed to crush the strike?
Would it have been better to lay down and let her just close the pits and sack the men she intended to without opposition without putting up a fight?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:36 PM

"The public sector unions seem to think that public sector jobs are sacrosanct. Fair enough, that's what they're there to protect. However the reality is that savings have to be made - anyone who's had any dealings with the public bodies knows too well that they're monstrously inefficient. The private sector has been forced to cut jobs for some time - why should the public sector be immune? Why should someone be paid public money to do a job which is not necessary?"

For decades the public sector has suffered depressed pay levels compared to the private sector, with the tiny sweetener of reasonable (and hard fought-for) pension schemes (and please don't chuck that "gold-plated pensions" bollox back at me - the vast majority of public sector pensions are well below £10000). Even those are now threatened. Cap'n Bob wasted hundreds of millions of his employees' pensions by failing to ringfence the funds (to put it euphemistically), but the way our governments serially do that to public sector pension contributions makes him look like a kid nicking sweets. I could ask you to list the public sector jobs which are, in your view, unnecessary (I'll grant you that there is often far too much bureaucracy, but that's all and it is not everywhere), and I could also remind you that it was the deeply efficient private sector, which you appear to be speaking up for, that got us all into this shite in the first place. Thank God they weren't inefficient, that's all I can say!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:12 AM

I agree totally with Steve.
One of the great ploys of 'them upstairs' is to set one group of workers against the other and take our attentions off the real issues.
It is the duty of all Trades Unions to do their best for the groups they represent - that is what they were elected to do. I can still remember our 'democratic' media turning on the print unions and claiming how unfair it was that the printers were living in the lap of luxury while the rest of 'us' had to slave away for everything we got. This tactic is another reason to remember the miners strike and how the government managed to play off one section of the miners against the other.
Calls for national unity at the time of crisis ring a little hollow coming from people who continue to feather their own nests to obscene levels of opulence from the public purse, who claim millions from taxes to 'build palaces for their ducks' and claim expenses for travelling to work from homes they don't occupy.
If we are all going to "pull together", it would be a little encouraging to see some movement from the top in that direction, from the corrupt and incompetent politicians and the blood-sucking economists who created this mess, instead of being left with the feeling that somehow it is our fault and they are knights in shining armour doing their best to get us out of 'our' mess, that, as far as they are concerned, has "nuffing to do wiv us guv".
Sorry if this seems like a left-wing backlash, John Mc - (another phrase which along with "blind stupidity' helps split us down the middle and leave us with the feeling that somehow it is all our fault).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM

Steve,leaving aside positions like the "outreach workers" we've all seen advertised, bureaucracy and inefficiency inevitably means that more people are required to do a task than is necessary. In the private sector, the need to remain profitable means that such inefficiencies are usually eliminated.

I am a property professional. From time to time I was involved in leasing space to, or from, public bodies. Invariably they would turn up on site mob-handed, with several representatives from each department involved. Typically, each department would carry out its own investigations independently of the others, duplicating work. I might deal with a dozen representatives of the public body, whereas I was able to look after the interests of a large private sector business on my own.

I am now unemployed, as a result of cuts in the private sector. At my local Jobcentre, it took three people and three meetings (the sole purpose of one seemed to be to set up another meeting with someone else) to agree for me to go on a course, and three months to then find a course, which I had already found with 5 minutes googling.

Of course these inefficiencies aren't the fault of the individuals working there - it's "the system". But the inefficiencies mean that more people have to be employed than are necessary. Why should the rest of us have to pay for them?

Besides, you're falling into the same trap as the unions. The purpose of the public sector is to provide public services, not to provide jobs. Its surely right in difficult times that we review those services and decide whether they're all really necessary, and should then employ sufficient people to provide them - no more, no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:26 AM

"We mustn't get into that macho culture situation again. "

Well if that isn't a right wing reactionary statement, I don't know what is. Did you ever see at first hand what Thatcher's policies did to the mining communities - to the people, the shops, the schools, the unique camaraderie that existed in the Yorlshire coalfields? No, I expect you just sat back in your comfortable armchair nursing your smug "I'm alright, Jack" attitude and tut-tutted at the TV. Blind stupidity? - no, you're stupidity has its eyes well open.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:15 AM

I was born and brought up in a mining area, don't tell me about miners and their hardships.
I don't sit back in my comfortable armchair either, I work in my garage, making picnic benches to eke out my miserable state pension.
You see I was self employed most of my life, and had to rely on myself.
I also provided employment for others.
However, I don't moan about it, I don't grudge others what they have, I just get on with my life.
My views are my own, and not coloured by doctrine of either the left or the right.
Of course I expect people to disagree with me, while others concur, that's a fact of life.
However just because you disagree with someone, there is no need to denigrate them personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:18 AM

"The purpose of the public sector is to provide public services"
How does this differ in any way from any other job that gives a service to the public? As an electrician it was my job to provide a safe and efficient electrical system for those I worked for - it didn't in any way reduce my right to a fair wage and security of employment.
What you are describing are inefficiancies in management - maybe it is the management that needs re-organisation rather than those at the workface.
If your suggested review was to be aimed at the whole system, from top to bottom, maybe you would have a valid point - anybody like to take bets on the likelihood of that happening?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:28 AM

Quote from John McKenzie further up the thread:

"Anyway, I'm apolitical, ..." (!)

I beg to differ!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:52 AM

As an electrician you, if you were self employed, or your employer if not had a choice of whether or not you would provide your service, and the basis of this would have been whether or not the individual, or property developer, or even local authority, depending on who purchased your services were prepared to pay what you charged.

Your would be classed as service industry as opposed to public service.

The role of public services is to provide services to communities that are not driven by a profit motive. This means that unprofitable services are still provided as they are needed.   Because the services are unprofitable, (but still may generate income) local authorities and governments raises taxes, rates, etc.

As public money is raised to pay for these services, we elect representative who we hope they can manage our money properly.

A grey area is where private companies win tenders for public services. In this case I would not class the providers as public servants as they are delivering a contract and as long as the terms of the contract are met, the providers are outside of the public sector accountability.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM

"My views are my own, and not coloured by doctrine of either the left or the right.
Of course I expect people to disagree with me, while others concur, that's a fact of life.
However just because you disagree with someone, there is no need to denigrate them personally. "

What total hypocrisy! What do you think phrases like "Blind stupidity" and "Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!!" are?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

I think Crow has the intelligence of someone who's sole ambition is to work in Tescos!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:28 AM

Whereas Bonzo would be unlikely to get past the interview stages ...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:36 AM

Howard, you are a property professional (go on, make me guess), and you are now unemployed. I guess that untrammelled capitalism crashing down around our ears might have had something to do with it?

We all have our personal experiences to relate but there is a bigger picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:51 AM

Let's see.

Bankers ruin the economy - the government gives them trillions.

Strikers might ruin the economy - the government sends in shock troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM

They are descriptions of predictable Pavlovian responses.
I don't know who Pavlov voted for either :)

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM

"The purpose of the public sector is to provide public services"
Jim replied "How does this differ in any way from any other job that gives a service to the public?"

Not at all, but you've only quoted part of my sentence. I went on to say "not to provide jobs". To listen to some public sector union leaders, they seem to think the public services exist to provide jobs for their members.

I don't wish any public sector workers ill. But why should they expect be immune from the consequences of the situation we're all now in?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

John Mac, somebody did indeed mention Cuba (Ake did) and it was in the context of a recent interview in which Castro conceded that the Cuban model was indeed in need of revision. That model nevertheless, and for all its faults, delivred extraordinary levels of healthcare and education for all in the face of punitive economic hardships imposed by successive US admins that prefer the Battista style of autocrisy.

Your claim that "strikes are self-defeating" is a generalisation that reeks of blind stupidity, or doctrinaire right-wing claptrap. You may be apolitical but you are plainly prejudiced a well.

You say you are familiar with the coalmining industry, so you may remember a strike by the National Union of Mineworkers in 1972. As a result of that strike an inquiry was set up - the Wilberforce inquiry - to examine the remuneration of mineworkers. That inquiry produced a report which was adopted and implemented in full - as a result of which mmineworkers were promoted from 16th to second place in the league table of manual workers. Not a single TUC-affiliated union sought to re-establish the previous differentials. Sorry john, but without a strike the mineworkers would have moved only from 16th to 15th position - where the NCB's last pre-strike offer would have taken them.

Do you think that every other improvement in working conditions and remuneration for employees since the 19th century resulted simply from the benevolence of employers?

Howard Jones: I worked a few years on newspapers, then 20 years in the public sector, then back to the private sector for 15 more years. I found that on the whole people worked hard in both arenas. Thre are always those (me included) who push the boundaries from time to time, but not more so inone sector than the other. I suspect your generalisation is founded on ignorance or perhaps an over-gullible dependence on our wonderful newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM

"why should they expect be immune from the consequences of the situation we're all now in?"

Because unlike C-Ship 'telephone sanitisers' and their ilk, they fill basic roles to ensure the fundamental needs of society are met. They take away rubbish, they lock up criminals, they heal wounds and so-on. No huge bonuses. They are the flour in the bread.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM

"All they will do if they go on strike is reduce this country to a similar state to that which Greece is in now.
The pound will drop, the country's credit rating will be reduced, and the threatened double dip recession will be the most likely outcome.
It appears to me that what they are saying is this.
Please coalition government, don't ruin the country.
Let us do it for you!




Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!!"quote john mackenzie
    hardly apolitical

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

"I don't wish any public sector workers ill, but....."
It never fails does it; a bunch of incompetent nomarks drop the economy in the clarts, they continue to milk the system for all they can, while at the same time they close our hospitals, raise our taxes, cut our services, threaten our pensions - and what do we do - we start winging about those of us in the same situation as we are earn.
Jay-sus - no wonder they get away with it every time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:53 PM

PS My 'public sector' working partner is now so exhausted from his recent FIFTY percent addition to his week's workload, is now so buggered with pain at weekends that he's worried about his working future. Maybe IT experts aught to take his place?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

Everyone has a boss. Either the greedy fat cats who own the companies and want us to work for pennies with no benefits, or, the government. The difference is, we get to choose the people we elect to the government.
Take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

"Everyone has a boss. Either the greedy fat cats who own the companies and want us to work for pennies with no benefits, or, the government.
The difference is, we get to choose the people we elect to the government."

That's not the only difference Kendall .....

US national Bob Diamond aged 59 has been chosen by Barclays bank as its next chief executive.
Described earlier this year amid public outrage at banker bonuses in general, by Peter Mandelson as "the unacceptable face of banking," he already has an estimated fortune of about 100 million pounds, thanks to massive cash and shares bonuses earned while heading Barclays Capital.

As chief executive, Diamond will receive an annual salary of 1.35 million pounds but could earn millions more in bonuses, Barclays said.

The annual salary of an MP is £65,738 as of 1 April 2010 although they may claim fixed claim allowances to cover, for example, staff costs, travel expenses and the cost of running an office.

Cabinet ministers receive a salary of £134,565 which includes the MP's salary of £65,738

The Prime Minister has announced that he will be taking a salary of £142,500.

Specialist ITU Nurse NHS
(ENB100 + 10 years experience)
Nursing Quals: RGN
Annual Salary:
£19,935

Newly Qualified Nurse Organisation: NHS
(D Grade, first post)
Nursing Quals: RGN
Annual Salary:
£15,445

- Purely an 'apolitical' observation

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM

Daughter made redundant today, 2nd time since graduating two and a half years ago. Not a raffiawork or media studies graduate, but an engineer. Not caused by strikes, or by Union militancy or resistance to change. Caused purely by the wanton destruction of the economy by Thatcher and the idiots who have continued her policy of running down manufacturing industry and relying on gambling, sorry, "services".

They closed the pits, and now we either import coal or destroy 300 million years of history to open- cast it. We haven't stopped using it, and we can't even get at the stuff that's still down there because it would be too dangerous to open the mines again.

Those responsible shouldn't be given bonuses, they should be despised. Along with the toadies who suck up to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:43 PM

Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed - Show of Hands

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM

"The difference is, we get to choose the people we elect to the government."
Yeah - and maybe one day we'll get to have a say on what the'll do after we elect them - whoops, was that a pig I just saw flying past?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM

How much do Union Leaders earn?
Do they lose anything if they call the members out?
Who do the Unions fund - Labour or Conservatives?
Who do the unions support - Labour or Conservatives?
Who would benefit most, if the Unions brought the Government to its knees?
Which party got the most votes at the last general election?

How do we pull back the massive debt that we have and which Government left that for the next Government, irrespective of who caused it?

I don't trust any of the parties, but somehow we have a coalition and they are trying to do what they think is best. There is a lot I don't agree with, but causing a new election does not solve the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM

If I criticise someone with a dog, does that make me a cat person?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:35 PM

"How do we pull back the massive debt that we have"

Duh ...

Well its obvious isn't it.

There's only one way, and thats to grind the poorest in society down into the dirt with the sole of an expensive Gucci heel, to cut health care and to reduce the number of police on our streets.

There is no other way is there.

There is only one way to skin a cat.


OKAY!!

We get the point - there is a deficit.

But fucking up the economy and the country is not the only way to handle it.

It is not the only alternative.


I am nearing the end of my studies.

There are young men and women at my University in my year who have worked hard to get where they are.

They have got so close to the finish line and they should be preparing to finish up in a blaze of glory and enter society as well qualified and trained individuals who can contribute something really useful.

Only in the case of some of these young adults, the rug has been pulled out from under their feet and they won't be able to finish what they have spent years working towards.

Well done Cameron.

The unis are being told to charge more money,

they are having to cut down on admissions,

many students are avug to quit,

many who got good A-Levels are missing out on places and will have to compete with next years crop for scraps.

those from poor areas will find it harder to qualify for Uni as money has been taken out of their schools to fund the new independant rich parents schools of philanthropy and to fund the new academies which qualify for extra funding and special status on the basis that they are already doing fine.

This is happening at primary and secondary level.

And when their shit schools fail to meet their needs, kids in poor areas are going to have no youth clubs or playgrounds as all that kind of "wsteful spending" is being cut too.


But HOORAY for big society - because in areas where they can afford it, local communities are going to take the place of public services and pay for their own playgrounds ... and of course they'll get financial incentives to do so ... it helps if you don't have to work because hubby earns enough and the nanny looks after the kids ... lots of time to play at Big Society and Designer education.


Before this election I was not a labour man, but I can't wait for the next election and to see the end of the condems.

Hurry up labour, elect your leader and form the next government!

5 years will fly by!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:55 PM

Whereas Bonzo would be unlikely to get past the interview stages ...


Checkout walla.....agreed

Finance director........well qualified!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:05 PM

Joanna Killian on Panorama

As yet, she has not announced that she or any of her entourage are taking pay cuts. In fact a fair few of them just got bonuses.

I am waiting for the axe to fall. I am back office in a non statutory service. I am 52 with physical disability. I always planned to work until I physically and mentally couldn't any more. Retirement is not an option for poor folk like me. Think I will get another job? That's ok. I can claim the benefits that won't be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:07 PM

Others expect to be immune because banking thieves appear to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

"Finance director........well qualified!!!"

No Bonzo ... I can see how you might make that mistake given the gross incompetence of the financial sector, but finance directors are actually supposed to be able to think and communicate coherently and form intelligent judgements.

You never know, they might let you clear up horse shit at the local polo club ...

... hold on ... so thats where you get it all from ...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:00 AM

Rob Crow of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union is enjoying a 12% pay rise from the last calendar year, lifting his salary £133,183, reports the Daily Express today. Both general secretaries of the union Unite, Derek Simpson and Tony Woodley, are also earning six figure sums.

This comes at a time when millions of workers represented by unions have taken pay cuts and pay freezes. It begs the question as to whether leaders of unions which are funded by their members should enjoy pay increases that are multiples of the market rates when their members are losing their jobs and experiencing pay cuts and pay freezes.

Rob Crow of the RMT is leading efforts to take strike action over the August bank holiday weekend which will seriously disrupt the operations of the London Underground or tube. Derek Simpson of Unite has also threatened to shut down a number of airports in the UK in strike action against the British Airport Authority.

Transport Minister Norman Baker says that Bob Crow may be talking about fairness but should be judged by his actions, continuing to say that Mr Crow would rather 'feather his nest' than work with the government to put together an affordable British transport system.

A spokesman for London Major Boris Johnson says that any individual serving in a public capacity taking a salary increase of 12% in this economic climate is "not living in the real world".

Commonly substantial salaries are awarded to individuals in senior positions at large organisations but union members may question whether the leaders they are funding deserve to be paid nearly as much as the Prime Minister plus enjoy a salary increase that no other public sector worker will enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:46 AM

Funny, I remember other saying about banks that they need to pay to attract the best.

One rule for the bankers, another for the workers. Same old same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:49 AM

BTW that panorama interview followed a report on elderly couple being "enabled" to live independently. They showed the woman making tea in a rather grotty kitchen for her stroke ridden husband. A support worker visits them I don't know how often. Earlier in the report it showed where the council had put hand rails in the home to help the gentleman move around. But the rooms were packed with furniture and junk and the woman did not have the strength or energy to clear it. That woman carer is literally trapped in her care situation. That was the extent of "enablement for independent living." Quality of life is not mentioned but one could infer it was not good for this couple.

I'd like to add that Jo's Blog (isn't that clever) she writes as much about her holidays and what she did on the weekend as she does about the "Transformation" (what ECC calls the changes it is making to the council and the services it provides). IT contract broken at couple million cost to tax payers and tendered to IBM. The ECC employee who worked this is currently in the hot seat because he is a former IBM employee as are several other family members he hired to work for ECC. The manager who empire built the properties portfolio belonging to ECC is on is also suspended and the EPF is about to be outsourced. We are in constant battle with companies we do business with, because the EPF has not been paying invoices. They don't have enough staff.

Soon the council will be paying rent to a private company for the buildings it once owned. How is this saving money?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:38 AM

"How much do Union Leaders earn?"
This is a very strange way of reasoning.
If I am asked to obey a law, I don't first ask what the lawmakers, or the judges, or the police superintendants take home in their pay packet; I do so because it is the right thing to do for me and my family and my community.
If somebody comes canvassing for a politician, I don't first find out what he or she is earning before I vote for them; I support them (or not) because I agree (or don't) with their policies and think that is the best alternative for me and mine.
If someone rattles a charity box under mt nose, I don't ask how much the organisers earn before I support it; I do so on the basis of the cause.
Whenever I have supported trades union activities, I have never opted out because I believed that my TU officials were earning too much (even though I might have thought they were); I have done so because it was best for me, it enabled me to have some small say in my working life, it gave me a voice and might just improve the lives of me and those around me.
The alternative would have been for me to say and do nothing and allow myself to be screwed by people who were all earning infinitely more than I was.
As I said - a very strange way of reasoning (or not).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:19 AM

What's the point of striking? Well, it might well be the only way a lot of people have to make sure their situation is noticed by the general public, as a lot of stuff that's going on isn't getting much attention from the media.
Public services are under threat in a way I haven't seen before - talking locally, a number of local councils are not recruiting anyone on a permanent contract and one (Cardiff) is filling all vacancies from a temp agency that they run which pays a maximum rate of £6.50 per hour. I know this to be true as I have done their assessment tests, come out with a top score and yet been offered jobs I can't afford to take. Another council is reputed to have sacked all of its employees and re-employed them at 25% lower salaries than before - I haven't seen this reported anywhere officially,which is why I say "reputed". My job within Education Inclusion (working with kids excluded from the mainstream school system) seems to have come to a full stop, although before the summer we were flooded with pupils needing teachers. Where have they gone? I've been trying to find a "proper" job, as it seems that working for agencies and for a number of different employers now bars me from getting loans and mortgages - but it also seems that my husband's "proper" job working for the local authority is also no longer considered safe.
In my case there's no point in striking as it just means more money I'm not earning and other people are available from other agencies to cover the work I'm not doing ...but if there was a way for me to wave a banner in the air and march down Whitehall to get someone to take notice of the plight we're in - trust me, I'd be there. Lots of people are losing their jobs, the social security budget is being cut and yet there are no other jobs to apply for. What are we supposed to live on?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:19 AM

Well Jim there seems to be a fair number of people sniping at what top directors earn etc etc. Just thought it would be nice to see what Trade Union leaders earn in comparison to what the very poorly paid members they look after.
You seem to have argued that it doesn't matter what people earn.
Strange that, becuase part of the big fat cat earners milking the country dry are Union Leaders.
12% pay increases etc, disgraceful, whilst the poorly paid are suffering more and more.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:07 AM

"Well Jim there seems to be a fair number of people sniping at what top directors earn etc etc."
People are sniping at what top directors earn BECAUSE IT IS THEIR INCOMPETENCE THAT GOT US IN THE MESS WE ARE IN AT PRESENT.
It is the politicicians greed and corruption and the finacial pundits bad advice and big buisnesses' "couldn't give a fuck what happens to the country" attitude that caused this crash - I don't see you putting an argument that this isn't the case.
I couldn't agree more about TU salaries being disgraceful - it is one of the reasons many of them have been bought into being part of the establishment, but it is totally irrelevant to his discussion, unless you can prove that the trades unions have somehow had a part in the present financial balls-up.
Whatever I might think of the salaries of the politicians, law administrators... whoever, it is the combined forces of big business's greed and mismanagement and politicians incompetence and corruption that has caused the closure of our local a A&E department, threatened my pensions, thrown thousands on the dole..... how far do you want to go?
Yes, in the long run salaries are important; the surgeon who operated on me recently takes home fabulous amounts of money - but if I had to choose between his pay packet and that of a banker who has just been awarded equivilant to five years wages of an ordinary worker as a bonus for making a balls-up - I know where my vote would go.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:22 AM

Jim
The present financial balls up as you would put it was handed on by the Labour Government (whether or not it was there fault is irrelavant).
The new government has to try and sort it.
Between the old and the new, we still have an almighty cock up.
I am not happy at all with how things are panning out and I do think that top line salaries are fleecing this country. How much of this wealth actually stays in this country?
I wish we could get more manufacturing investment instead of services etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:14 AM

"The present financial balls up as you would put it was handed on by the Labour Government"
Er no - the present financial balls up was handed on by a Labour Government, and an equally inept and corrupt Conservative opposition who are not just traditionally supported by big business that got Britain into the mess that it is now in, but whose ranks are made up of the very businessmen, fananceers and investors whos corruption and greed caused the slump.
Any suggestion that "things are panning out" may be quickly dispelled by a cursory glance at the recent "let's screw the poor again" budget which was a clear indication that nothing has really changed.
All which goes to show that, for all its weaknesses, we need a Trades Union movement (that you so significantly choose to target in your attacke, carefully ignoring the real culprits) to protect us from these corrupt and inapt bastards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:54 AM

"Strange that, becuase part of the big fat cat earners milking the country dry are Union Leaders."

Oh I see - the fat cats are the ones on 133,000 a year.

The slim cats are the ones who make 3,000,000 a year.

Well thanks for clarifying that Arthur.


I happen to think that the responsibility working as an elected representative in a Union is comparable to the responsibility of working as an elected representative in government, so he's probably around 50,000 overpaid.

But then he runs a significantly bigger organization than most elected politicians.


In addition, try and remember that he represents the views of the Union. They vote on their own policy. He is their representative.


To say he is expressing a view in spite of the workers is wrong.

He is the mouthpiece for their position.

They oppose the cuts.

He's doing exactly what he's paid to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 07:49 AM

A blast from the past
Jim Carroll

PARLIAMENTARY POLKA
Or - Please Place in the Appropriate Receptacle Your Government White Paper

CAST
EMPLOYERS' FEDERATION became now the Confederation British Industry which represents the interests of British companies.
FEDERATION OF BANKERS is a professional body that sets Standards and exams for those who want to be bankers.
THE MONDAY CLUB was formed in 1961 by a group of Tory MPs who were objecting to some of the policies of the Conservative Prime Minister Harold MacMillan. The Monday Club has campaigned on law and order, the Family. on immigration ... it has empire nostalgia and is anti-Europe on nationalist grounds. It is to the far right of the far right,
ROY JENKINS Labour MP who was, at the time this song wras written, Home Secretary in Callaghan's government
Margaret Thatcher had been Secretary of State for Education and Science from 1970 to 1974 and in 1975 was elected leader of the Conservative party.

When prices keep on rising and your backs are to the wall,
The kids are needing clothing and you lack the wherewithal,
When economic crisis grabs the country by the earholes,
That's the time to rally 'round your leaders.
For the leaders of the nation, the Employers' Federation,
They know all the answers, and the Institute of Bankers
Know a way to save the day,
You've only got to sacrifice your pay.

When miners start demanding astronomical amounts
To swell their private fortunes in their numbered Swiss accounts,
It's then you'll hear the mighty voice of Westminster announce:
"Forward to the pits to get the coal out!"
Chaps with bowlers, umberellas,
Monday Clubbers (splendid fellas!
Ministers and royal pages—and they're not here for the wages
But because the time has come show the miners how it should be done.

When money-grubbing building workers vote to go on strike
And brutal pickets interfere with honest blacklegs' rights,
It's then that loyal Britishers are called upon to fight
To defend free enterprise and law and order.
Cops and TV commentators, lawyers, building speculators,
Mr. Jenkins and his judges, scabs who're paying off their grudges,
Use the law. It has no flaw.
To serve their interest, that is what it's for.

When disaffected mums and dads begin to bawl and shout.
Insisting that our education system's up the spout,
Remember Maggie Thatcher's there and she knows all about
Everything concerning education.
For she knows that kids of workers are just layabouts and shirkers.
To teach them would be folly and an utter waste of lolly,
Waste of time. Save the dough!
They're here to work, that's all they need to know.

So just remember when you feel inclined to criticise:
It's not for you to question or to ask the reason why.
Close your mouth and go on grafting till the day you die,
And win the thanks of those who own the nation.
They will con you, they'll mislead you, they will rob you, they will bleed you,
With a smile they freeze your wages, kill you off by easy stages
Till the day you pull the chain
And flush the whole caboodle down the drain.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:07 AM

I've included a link showing the distribution of wealth in the UK.
It makes interesting reading.

Distribution of wealth in UK

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:20 AM

Jim, you let the MPs off the hook over wages. Most of them (particularly conservatives and "New Labour" (ie traitors to the Labout cause - unlike a few honourable "usual suspects")) have their snouts in troughs other than salaries - directorships that are bribes to push the interests of specific companies in Parliament, and the expenses system set up by Margaret Thatcher as a covert pay rise, "charitable" trusts benefitting their offspring (the ones admitted to anyway) and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM

Tunesmith - that link is 2003. Surely it has got a lot worse since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:24 AM

.



       What do we need unions for?




.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:57 AM

"Jim, you let the MPs off the hook over wages."
Sorry Richard - didn't mean to - let them all hang as far as I'm concerned
Jimn Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Old Vermin
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:08 AM

Crow is superficially well-placed to negotiate in that his members can make life miserable for the public by short strikes.

The problem is that the public can no longer afford his members' pay. For a well-paid public sector, we need a healthy private sector of sufficient size. This we do not have now. It seems to have been an illusion that we did over the last ten years or so. Painful.

The downturn coincides with labour-technology being established.

Crow, poor man, is like the cartoon character cycling in mid-air after going off a cliff. He can bluster, and there may be strikes, but he can't find more cash.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:16 AM

A lot of this thread seems to be following the logic that the only way to reduce the deficit is to cut public services. We are being fed this line by Government and a compliant Press to obscure the true nature of the choice. Governments have choices about how they cut deficits, and how far and fast they do so. Cutting the public sector workforce is one way; but it's pretty inefficient economically. By doing so, you put more people in the position of claiming benefits, which offsets the original cut. These people are less economically active, which inhibits economic growth. They don't pay tax any more, which further offsets the original cut. Irrespective of politics, basing 80% of your cuts strategy around public sector workforce cuts is economically dim. Making the cuts quickly and dogmatically is also risky; there is a 'tipping point' in most economies beyond which there is not enough economic activity to support the economically inactive; this point is closer than most politicians realise, particularly with an ageing population.
Other strategies could be considered, but don't seem to be on the agenda. Forcing the banks to repay taxpayers money or be nationalised is one approach, and could be done over a medium term period so the 'shock' to the banking system is negligible. Squeals from the banks should be ignored, and compared to their still obscene profits.
The tax system should be changed to an approach where the rich (and especially the super-rich)are forced to pay their share instead of avoiding payment. Penalties for tax avoidance (not just evasion) should include confiscation of assets and imprisonment. (The argument that 'the rich will just move abroad' has been shown to be utter nonsense, as experience of previous tax increases shows no correlation between tax rises and economic migration). Instead we have the disgusting situation where this Government is taking the bulk of tax increases from the poorest third of the population. Another approach; stop interfering in foreign wars, and stop pretending we are a nuclear force in the world. Have a small standing Armed Forces who are actually engaged in defending the UK itself, not US interests abroad.
Another approach; the public purse currently subsidises bad employers by paying support benefits to employees who are unable to live on the wages offered by the employer. Raise the minimum wage to a realistic level so that employers are paying the economic rate for work done, and remove the need for taxpayers to subsidise the profits of the company. There are many examples of huge companies making massive profits when the bulk of their workforce receive income support. (The hitherto supine Trade Union movement in this country has been complict in this, incidentally). Again, the employers argument that this will cost jobs has been demonstrated to be spurious, as the introduction and subsequent review of the minimum wage has been demonstrated to have no significant effect on employment levels.
Reintroduce the well-established economic dictum of 'reasonable profit', and tax companies and their shareholders heavily when this is exceeded.
All of these strategies are in place in one form or another in developed countries around the world; it's really just the UK (and to some extent the USA) who follow a model of capitalism that predetermines that the poor should always pay with either their jobs, their services or in taxes when things get tight.
To John MacKenzie; this isn't a left-wing knee-jerk response, it's a considered alternative to the economic barbarism (not Barberism!) that is being proposed. Economically speaking, all of these proposals have a greater chance of success than simply slashing and burning public services.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:31 AM

'Complict' should read 'complicit', sorry. Was that 100 we just passed?
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Old Vermin
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:50 AM

Mandotim - couldn't post an Executive summary of all that, could you, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM

Part of the problem in this country is that people only read headlines, not arguments; and that includes politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

At least Mervyn King admitted to the TUC he was at least partly responsible for the financial crisis that lead to the recession, big of him since he won't be suffering the depravations and cuts that those whose lives and communities will be destroyed will have to.

What a wanker.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

"Penalties for tax avoidance (not just evasion) should include confiscation of assets and imprisonment."

Point of Order, M'Lud.

There are no penalties for Tax Avoidance - it's perfectly legal and all companies and individuals with any sense indulge in it.

Tax Evasion, on the other hand, is illegal and carries penalties which can be very heavy.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:56 AM

We in the USA are also being asked to something similar to you John.


The stupidy of Congress is really a plead for more greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:00 PM

Arthur Itis is being disingenuously selective in his reporting of union leaders' salaries. Here's a broader snapshot:

£52,666 pa - Alan Johnson - Union of Communication Workers.
£41,891 pa - Tony Dubbins - GMPU
£70,584 pa - Christine Hancock - Royal College of Nursing
c £60,000 pa - Alan Jinkinson - Unison
c £48,000 pa - Bill Morris - TGWU
£50,844 pa - Garfield Davies - Usdaw
£58,300 pa - Roger Lyons - MSU

These people are chief executives of large organisations. Looked at in this context their salaries are hardly outrageous.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

'mandotim' I think that the content your previous post represents a fair and equitable way forward for this country. Unfortunately, it does not chime with the rabid instincts of your average Tory. Such an individual believes that his/her 'social inferiors' are 'getting more' than he/she believes that they are entitled to - and that this must be stopped ... end of story really ... the consequences of doing so are not his/her concern. This boneheaded 'philosophy' fits in perfectly with the equally rabid ambitions of the rich and powerful who are thus enabled to keep more of the nation's wealth for them selves.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 01:09 PM

I think we should just print oodles of new money, write off the past 30 years and start over.... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:18 PM

Hi Backwoodsman; I know tax avoidance isn't unlawful; that's precisely the point, I think it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

I Agree with Mandotim here.

An acquaintance of mine owns a chain of pubs.

He offers me friendship and I reject it because I find his arrogance very distasteful.

He also owns a few classic cars - old jags etc.

Does he love classic cars?

Does he fuck!

He owns them, in the name of his business, because he can call them company cars and, as company cars are a necessary expense, he can write off tax against them.

He is so proud of himself.

I ask him "what about the NHS?"

He changes the subject.

Sleight of hand allows him to spend his tax pounds on a nice car once a year.

And each car is a classic, so it is an investment that increases in value with time.

So instead of paying his premium to be in the club, he keeps it, invests it, and has some flash cars.

Meanwhile there are people who have to wait for 24 hours before the police come round to interview them about the guy that held them up at gun point - by which time he has gone ... (true story)

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:58 PM

I think the way out of this economic slump is to start spending money on repairing infra structure, employing people on repairing mains sewers, roads, railways[even a new railway]etc.
until people are receiving money they cannot buy goods, therefore there is no point employing peopleproducing goods that noone has the money to buy.
however if people get wages to do necessary infrastructure repairs , they then have money to buy goods, the economy then gets a kick start. sorry if i am stating the obvious, but many politicians do not seem to understand how the capitalist system works.
another good occurence would be a couple of earth quakes[preferably under the house of commons,... joke].

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Rupert
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:03 PM

Can we please give this new government a chance. I think they are doing a splendid job. Yes banks created big problems, but it is done and we have to move on.

Labour created a lot of the problems we are faced with today, no one can dispute that. This government inherited a mess. I listened to a speaker yesterday at the Congress, typical meddling Scargill type, talking about striking and scaremongering about the winter of 1973. I myself have a private pension plan and private health insurance, everyone must make provision for their own retirement, no one should depend on the welfare state to carry them, one should have some dignity.

He spoke equality and poverty in the UK today. Equality, what do people want ? do they want the workshy and the lazy to enjoy the same lifestyle as those who worked hard all their lives? Labour certainly did. The benefits system in the UK is so abused, thankfully next month that will be pulled into line. I think the finest action so far by this government was to put the detection of benefit cheats into the hands of several private companies. They are to be paid 300.00 for each successful detection of such scoundrels. I know several that claim Mobility allowance and incapacity benefit and are fit to work, I had no apprehension in filling in the online forms reporting them.

Many speak of poverty in the UK today. Yes there is poverty, it is among those who work for a living and don't feed off the state for their rent, mortgage and council tax.

I jolly well look forward to the government announcements in October, especially the 2.5bn cut in Social Security payments.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:06 PM

That is certainly the conventional view of the Keynesian/New Deal restorative mechanism, Dick, and I subscribe to it. Cutting one's way out of recession failed before the Keynesian restoration, failed until the German "guns, not butter" initiative, and failed for the she-devil, so one does wonder just how stupid Osborne is.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:42 PM

"The benefits system in the UK is so abused, thankfully next month that will be pulled into line."

Yes, Rupert (good 'officer class' name that) some of your social inferiors are getting more than you think they're entitled to - "they must be pulled into line"!

Bankers can f**k the economy up as much as they like and their rewards are massive salaries and obscene bonuses - but woe betide any lowly oik who fiddles the system - set the privatised dogs on him!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 07:22 PM

And maybe we shouldn't depend on roads built with public money to travel around on, Rupert. Surely doing that offends against our dignity?

And how about the air we breath? Shouldn't that be sold to private companies, with us having to pay every time we fill our lungs? That should soon enough get rid of "the workshy and the lazy"...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:58 PM

Oh, very witty Rupert. Such a wonderful caricature.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:18 AM

Wupert's a wind-up - surely?
Though Monty Python had disbanded.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:14 AM

My dear Rupert,

You said:

"He spoke equality and poverty in the UK today. Equality, what do people want ? do they want the workshy and the lazy to enjoy the same lifestyle as those who worked hard all their lives?"

and then you said

"Many speak of poverty in the UK today. Yes there is poverty, it is among those who work for a living and don't feed off the state for their rent, mortgage and council tax."


So you have answered your own question haven't you.

if there are "those working for a living" in "poverty", then it follows that there is a serious problem of inequality.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:25 AM

Rupert, I'm afraid you are wasting your time. All the usual suspects are here banging the same old lefty drum which reads like a comedy script!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:50 AM

Bonzo, if you are an accountant, or qualified to be a finance director (I am less than convinced) surely you should be able to count, and to see that:
(a) mostly the assertions of Rupert of which you seemingly approve are innumerate; and
(b) if such problems existed it would be the welfare state and benefit system that alleviated them.

You seem to have somewhat less insight than Marie Antoinette.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:59 AM

"Labour created a lot of the problems we are faced with today, no one can dispute that."

Well I will dispute that. Every government and opposition in recent decades has to take its share of the blame. New Labour were merely continuing with the system of bank deregulation that Thatcher and Major espoused so enthusiastically (I don't know how Nigel Lawson and Norman Lament have got the gall to keep coming out to "commentate" on the current situation!), and I don't recall too many dissenting voices from the Tories during the good New Labour times when all their fat-cat City mates were feathering their nests.

"The benefits system in the UK is so abused, thankfully next month that will be pulled into line."

The real abuse of the benefits sytem is the fact that far more goes unclaimed, because the rules and the form-filling and the procedures you have to go through are so confusing and complicated, than is ever claimed fraudulently. It's bloody obvious who the chief rippers-off of the British people are, and it ain't a few dodgy benefits claimants, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: banjoman
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:05 AM

Here's my view. As a former Union Official, I have no time for Bob Crow and his call for Civil Disobedience. However, I have listened carefully to what the more sane element of the TUC is saying. There is no doubt that this coalition government is Tory Based and is reverting back to type. Leopards dont change their spots despite what Cameron & co say. The philosophy is to provide a means for big (and I mean really big) business to flourish and make huge bonus payments to its directors -many of whom are members of this government- at the expense of the less well off who, by tradition the torys see as a burden to their pland and are only tolerated as little as can be got away with.
Its the workers who create the wealth, but all business has to be managed and properly run for the benefit of all. The same should apply to government regardless of political colour. I actually voted Lib Dem, but never believed I was voting in a Tory government.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:06 AM

bonzo 3 legs
I am banging the keynesian drum, it hasnothing to do with political alignment, but is an accepted and proven way of getting a country out of an economic slump.
cutting peoples wages and benefits is not an efficent way of curing an economic slump

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:22 AM

Very well said Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

Rupert (or Wupert), you may get a surprise when your private healthcare plan refuses to treat you because of the small print, and your private pension plan doesn't buy you the prosperous retirement which you no doubt anticipate.

Lox, you'll be pleased to hear that your acquaintance is riding for a fall. Buying old Jaguars? Claiming they are company cars? The Revenue aren't stupid - Pubco Man may be in for a nasty shock.

Anyway, a person who buys a classic vehicle with the notion that they increase in value every year is very naive, they actually cost you a fortune. A family member bought a Rolls Royce expecting a profit - when he needed the brakes fixing, he soon found out the error of his ways. A good friend has various old Jaguars - anybody want a Mark IX with a duff cylinder head? Should only cost about £2k to fix!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Rupert
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:42 AM

No one fully trusts the market just yet. If we prevent naturally occurring monopolies from taking place we risk years of recession. The unions so wish to manipulate the market by scaremongering, this would only serve to reward those they identify with.

Labour can be charged with hypocritcally, they say are trying to ensure that society is fair and rewards those with marketable skills or willingness to work hard. That is rubbish, They manipulated unemployment figures for years, figures for those on Incapacity benefits, carers allowance and benefits for children with special needs (numbers truly qualifying for this recently discredited)were rarely released, Labour encouraged people to sign on sickness benefits and duly rewarded them.   


Some people's definition of just rewards for good management reads more like sour grapes to me. Would you not agree that it is fair to reward managers who save their company money and increase profit margins?   

Some of you seem just jolly well jealous that someone should prosper over other another. We are not responsible for every lame duck in our society, we take the advantages in life, we are not just born into a situation with certain opportunities. Why should I not have the opportunity to thrive ? so many of you go on about extreme poverty, well if you work hard that would appear to be the best way to avoid it.

There are unprincipled people in our society who use support groups and community based whatever set up by Labour to fight, argue and beat their drum using whatever arguments they think will benefit them or those groups they identify with as long as they don't have to work for a living.



Society has seen the demise of moral values in recent times, we all must pull together in the years ahead,some of you will not like the decisions that this government will have to make, I for one think they will do a sterling job and give this country the cuff around the ear it requires.


concerned that those who are rewarded in life neither workDemocrats have two complaints. First they point out that if life is a test, the test is not fair. Second, even if life is a test, is it fair to reward those with superior brains or bodies?

Before you dismiss democrats as a bunch of sore losers at the game of life you have to address their valid arguments. For instance what do you do about the handicapped? According to a purely republican philosophy any sort of governmental charity among the Neanderthals would have only encouraged the procreation of less efficient hunters and gatherers.

This can be described as survival of the fittest, or even happiness for the fittest.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Old Vermin
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:54 AM

Never mind the investment potential & running costs of old cars, consider why no-one makes them that way any more. An old MGB - I drove my son's before he sold it - was hard work to drive and not terribly comfortable. My great-uncle's pre-war - 1920s - Rolls went very slowly. My father who was driving said this was because it had nearly no brakes.

The things are money-pits and don't actually work terribly well. I just can make an exception for the three-wheeled Morgan run for the last forty or fifty years by an acquaintance.

I've given up on the main topic of the thread, I'm afraid. Too much déja-vu already.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM

Rupert said, well if you work hard that would be the best way to avoid it. here is a song for you rupert
William Brown

Traditional Woodcraft song arr. by Stan Kelly Tune: Friggin' in the Riggin' (or similar)

© 1961 Heathside Music

With time and motion


Well, a nice young man was William Brown,
He worked for a wage in Liverpool town,
He worked from six till eight at night,
Turning a wheel from left to right.

Chorus:


Keep that wheel a-turning, keep that wheel a-turning
Keep that wheel a-turning and do a little more each day.


One day the boss to William came
And said, "Look here, young what's your name,
"We're not content with what you do,
"Work a little harder or out you go."


So William turned and made her run
Three times roung in the time of one,
He turned so hard he soon was made
The Lord High Turner of his trade.


William turned with the same sweet smile,
The goods he made grew such a pile;
They filled the room and the room next door
And overflowed to the basement floor.


The nation heard of the wondrous tale,
His picture appeared in the Sketch and the Mail;
The railways ran excursions down,
And all to look at William Brown.

Penultimate verse sung with pathos in a minor key


But sad the sequel is to tell;
He turned out more than the boss could sell;
The market slumped and the price went down,
Seven more days and they sacked young Brown.

Up to speed for last half-verse

The moral of the tale is plain to tell:
If you wanna lose yer job, just werk like HELL!

Final Chorus:


And keep that wheel a-turning, keep that wheel a-turning
Keep that wheel a-turning and do a little more each day.

Back to contents...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:55 AM

Oh dear, Rupert. All that money spent on your education, and still can't construct either a cogent argument or an English sentence. The playing fields of Eton aren't what they were, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:39 AM

"Labour created a lot of the problems we are faced with today, no one can dispute that." "Well I will dispute that"
Steve Shaw is spot on - we aren't living with Labour's legacy - we are still knee deep in the dog-eat-dog world that Thatcher created, killing off any vestige of decency that the old Conservative party once might have had.
New Labour, to it's eternal shame, bought into that world, and finalised the deal with an illegal war that destroyed its credibility completely.
Any suggestion that Cameron's mob might be any different was scotched by the recent budget, introduced by the combined efforts of Conservative and Lib-Dems.
Rupert provides us with a fine example (or a very clever caricature) of what we might expect in the future.
I'll pin my hopes with the Trades Unions, thanks very much.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:50 AM

How much for that Mk IX with a ropy head then? I'm really really poor but I'd give it a good home along with my Volvos... (which have also been quite expensive to keep fixing but give me constant joy)

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:51 AM

Do they want to raise everybody UP to the same level?
or
Do they wish to drag everybody DOWN to the same level?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:54 AM

Rupert,

You said:

"Yes there is poverty, it is among those who work for a living and don't feed off the state for their rent, mortgage and council tax."

Then you said:

"so many of you go on about extreme poverty, well if you work hard that would appear to be the best way to avoid it."


Hmmm ...


I see you haven't thought things through very far ...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:57 AM

PS, is that Jag the manual box or the auto?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:58 AM

Well John,

Judging by the way wealth is distributed, to achieve a balance it would statistically be necessary to raise most people up and to cut the excess fat from a small few.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:19 AM

""No one fully trusts the market just yet. If we prevent naturally occurring monopolies from taking place we risk years of recession. The unions so wish to manipulate the market by scaremongering, this would only serve to reward those they identify with.

Labour can be charged with hypocritcally, they say are trying to ensure that society is fair and rewards those with marketable skills or willingness to work hard. That is rubbish, They manipulated unemployment figures for years, figures for those on Incapacity benefits, carers allowance and benefits for children with special needs (numbers truly qualifying for this recently discredited)were rarely released, Labour encouraged people to sign on sickness benefits and duly rewarded them.   


Some people's definition of just rewards for good management reads more like sour grapes to me. Would you not agree that it is fair to reward managers who save their company money and increase profit margins?   

Some of you seem just jolly well jealous that someone should prosper over other another. We are not responsible for every lame duck in our society, we take the advantages in life, we are not just born into a situation with certain opportunities. Why should I not have the opportunity to thrive ? so many of you go on about extreme poverty, well if you work hard that would appear to be the best way to avoid it.

There are unprincipled people in our society who use support groups and community based whatever set up by Labour to fight, argue and beat their drum using whatever arguments they think will benefit them or those groups they identify with as long as they don't have to work for a living.



Society has seen the demise of moral values in recent times, we all must pull together in the years ahead,some of you will not like the decisions that this government will have to make, I for one think they will do a sterling job and give this country the cuff around the ear it requires.


concerned that those who are rewarded in life neither workDemocrats have two complaints. First they point out that if life is a test, the test is not fair. Second, even if life is a test, is it fair to reward those with superior brains or bodies?

Before you dismiss democrats as a bunch of sore losers at the game of life you have to address their valid arguments. For instance what do you do about the handicapped? According to a purely republican philosophy any sort of governmental charity among the Neanderthals would have only encouraged the procreation of less efficient hunters and gatherers.

This can be described as survival of the fittest, or even happiness for the fittest.""

I couldn't agree more Rupert.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:19 AM

John is it reasonable that the rewards for a nerchant banker, or a gambler dabbling in the derivatives markets are a hundred times greater than for a doctor? It is not a simple matter of lifting up or knocking back as your facile post suggests. It is a matter of striking a balance. And a balance can't b struck without using regulation to constrain market forces.

Are you comfortable that from 1989 until 2005 (during which period Britain had both Conservative and "New" Labour governments) the gap between richa nd poor in the UK grew faster than in any developed country except New Zealand? Is it a doctrinaire leftwing backlash to suggest reversing that trend?

Do you accept any role at all for govrnments in terms of regulation and redistribution? If not , you will be disappointed that there is now international agreement on regulating at last the insane world of derivatives trading.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:30 AM

"Do they want to raise everybody UP to the same level?"
How about everybody finding their own level?
You really are a dyed-in-the-wool Thatcherite, aren't you?
You started off this thread extremely aggressively proudly announced that you weren't going to read what anybody else had to say, (then whinged that people were being rude to you) - Did you get your open mind at Harrods?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 11:07 AM

Hi

Interesting thread !!

But IMHO the Unions are just rattling their cages to let the so-called Government know that they are around.

This is just a preliminary in what is going to be a long drawn out negotiation process to try to make the case that making cuts is not the way forward.

In the same way The Government is over talking what they actually are proposing to do. So that when they do make clear what they are going to do it doesn't seem quite so bad after all.

Industrial psychiatry really !!

It happens all the time in business. Ever negotiated for a pay rise...???

Same process.

cheers

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 11:26 AM

"Labour can be charged with hypocritcally, they say are trying to ensure that society is fair and rewards those with marketable skills or willingness to work hard. That is rubbish, They manipulated unemployment figures for years, figures for those on Incapacity benefits..."

I should like to remind you that Thatcher, during the period when she was systematically and foolishly destroying our industrial base, vengefully wrecking the mining industry and turning whole communities (always the ones whose blood, sweat and tears made this country what it is) into no-hope deserts, put millions on to incapacity benefit to avoid them showing up as embarrassingly unemployed. Some people don't half have short memories. Labour certainly failed to get to grips with the issue (initiative after initiative coming to nought), but the situation was an inheritance from the Tories. And I'm not aware of any manipulation of the figures for incapacity benefit claimants. These have always been among the more transparent of government statistics, unlike the unemployment figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 11:34 AM

Don't make assumptions Jim.
Whinged is such an emotive word don't you think, and so incorrect too.☻

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 11:56 AM

I just spotted this gem as well: "Labour encouraged people to sign on sickness benefits and duly rewarded them."

This is just fantasy. Getting on to incapacity benefit, even for the most deserving cases, has been a bloody nightmare for years. There has been no "encouragement" of any kind. For many years now this benefit has been means-tested after a fashion (if you had to retire early, and received even a modest ill-health pension or other income, your IB either went down or disappeared completely). And the rules for doing even a very limited amount of work whilst on this benefit, for example in a move to a full return to work, are very severe. You may gather that I'm speaking from personal experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

John,
You made your stance quite clear by the way you posed your question and refused to look at the answers.
Regarding your last question;
"Do they want to raise everybody UP to the same level?"
Depends on what your 'ups' and 'downs' are,
Your 'ups' appear to be the people who, by their greed, dishonesty and incompetence, have managed to drive us into the mess we are in today.
Your 'downs' are those who, by their hard work, sacrifices and taxes are now expected to get us out of the mess created by your 'ups'.
You appear to see something logical about maintaining a status quo of this nature.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM

I don't agree with the satus quo, I merely quibble with the intended means of bringing about a change in this state of affairs.
Strikes are divisive, and poorly targeted, as they cause suffering to many more people than those they are aimed at.
Social protest, like the demonstrations against the petrol price escalotor would appear to be more effective. It did cause the government to drop that policy after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:09 PM

"It did cause the government to drop that policy after all"
It did sod all to stop an illegal war, despite the fact that one million people came out on the streets prior to in invasion of Iraq, and it led to a banning of all demostrations within one mile of Westminster.
The petrol price protests only had some effect because lorry drivers, who were in a position to bring militant pressure on the transport system, played a major part.
If we are going to have the same people who got the world into the mess it is now in, remain in positions of authority and influence, as appears to be inevitable, and if they are going to continue to help themselves to taxpayers money in the form of enormous bonuses, as they continue to do unchecked at the present time, then those of us who have no other voice than our Trades Unions are simply going to have to leave it to their discretion to do what they see fit. I'm sure the T.U. leadership is as aware as anybody with experience of trades union activity, that nobody comes out on strike unless they are left with no other alternative. Removing the option to call a strike is throwing away the only weapon working people have (sending our representitives naked to the conference table I think is the apposite term)
As I said earlier, often the threat of a strike is enough.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:33 PM

For instance what do you do about the handicapped?

Maybe I got confused with that stuff Rupert brought in about Democrats and Republicans, but it appears that he seems drawn to think the thing to do is eliminate them.

Consistent, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:16 AM

Ok John, enlighten us; how would you go about changing the status quo you disagree with?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

I think the last sentence of my previous post might mention a possible plan ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:47 AM

'Social protest' is a little general, and it could be argued includes strikes. Could you be more specific? How, for example, would you ensure that employers pay a living wage that avoids the need for income support by 'social protest'?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:12 AM

I watched Question Time last night.
I wonder if anybody else heard the woman from the London Fire Service say that she and all her collegues would all be sacked in November and re-employed under new contracts - nice to know that workers are being given a full part to play in sorting out the mess the country is in!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:17 AM

Richard, to go straight off topic again - it's an LHD Mk IX and (I think) auto. Came in a container from the States along with a MK 1 which had been partially immersed in a creek, a 4.2 E-Type, and an MGB. The E Type is now restored and RHD, the Mk 1 I believe went to a German gent (poor sod), and the Mark 9's head has I believe now been taken in hand as they say. Thank God I only have a 1973 Citroen Dyane being fixed!

And to get back onto the drift of the thread, neither of us are bloated plutocrats - we're just playing with our Dinky Toys.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Old Vermin
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:38 AM

Friend of mine, technically a carer, disabled and skint has an ancient VW Golf as a winter car - currently off the road - an even more ancient Triumph Spitfire - intended to be the summer car when fixed - an elderly MGB GT in his father's garage and as an alternative summer car a Citroen 2CV [if it isn't a Dyane] which is kept about twenty miles from where he lives.

He had a bit of a glitch on the MoT [roadworthiness test certificate] for the Golf expiring before he thought it did. Declared that SORNed [legally off-road] before noticing that he needed a road-legal car to get the bits to fix the assorted deficiencies. I gave him a lift to the motor-factors back in June. Haven't seen him since, must enquire....

Certainly not a bloated plutocrat. Has an apparent ability to defy gravity, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:38 AM

Ah, I wouldn't have wanted an LHD auto anyway, but thanks. Go radical with the Dyane and put a 1220 GS engine in it!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 09:43 AM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jim Carroll