BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress

Subject: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:14 PM

Here TUC Congress: Public will back us against cuts - Barber

All they will do if they go on strike is reduce this country to a similar state to that which Greece is in now.
The pound will drop, the country's credit rating will be reduced, and the threatened double dip recession will be the most likely outcome.
It appears to me that what they are saying is this.
Please coalition government, don't ruin the country.
Let us do it for you!




Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:39 PM

When it comes to ruining the country the coalition government is way way ahead...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Lox
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:57 PM

Well John,

It seems you haven't read the article fully.

The only mention of a strike was in this sentence.

"But she said no-one was talking about a general strike - which unions cannot organise as they each have to ballot their members separately."

Hmm ...

ok - so what is your point ...


That they are wrong to speak out about the fact, as published by the IFS (institute of Fiscal Studies) that the poorest in society, working in the lowest paid jobs, are bearing the largest burden in the cuts?


Oh - should I take it that you think the poor should be punished?

And the the bankers should be paid bigger bonuses?


You do realize that when the government beiled out the banks it made the taxpayer the biggest shareholder ...

we pay their wages ...

we saved their jobs ...

and we are being taxed more than ever to pay them highere wages and bonuses than they earned before the crunch ...


Do you think thats right?



ok then John.

Its madness to criticize that isn't it.

And to do so is something that only a dyed in the wool socialist would dream of.













.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

By comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:05 PM

Here they come!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:09 PM

Speaking of which...While surfing some classical music on Youtube, I came across this, before the actual video started......


Something for the next generation....

Politicos, don't watch, you won't 'get it' anyway....

gfS

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

John MacKenzie

Here they come!

Because I gave a link to a Daily Mail article?!?

Try this one - Conservative Home

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:17 PM

Nope, didn't read your link mate, as I expect it's a bit biased.


"And RMT union leader Bob Crow called for a campaign of "civil disobedience" in protest at spending cuts."

"The RMT is asking the TUC to back calls for co-ordinated industrial action "to defend jobs, pensions and conditions".

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:27 PM

John MacKenzie

Nope, didn't read your link mate, as I expect it's a bit biased.

The Daily Mail and Conservative Home? Yeah, I'd expect them to be a bit biased.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

Rubbish John. You're a bit gullible about the bankers' cries of crisis, and you've obviously forgotten how well they performed just a couple of years ago. If we are "all in it together" (which I rather doubt), the surplus fat from the rich should be cut long before the necessities of the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

All reporting is biased. The article I linked to is on a BBC site, which tends to be less so. Although I find the BBC as a whole has a left wing bias. Just a wee lean, mind you :)
Anyway, I'm apolitical, but I can't help but think that any industrial action will be counter productive.
As it is in most cases anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Lox
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:18 PM

er .... GfS .....


Um ... Smetana was a nationalist composer ....


not left wing ...


The piece you chose was from a series of tone poems called "my fatherland" ...


I'm afraid that from a political and from a musical point of view its entirely irrelevant ...

... I studied it ... I know ...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:47 PM

Excuse me if I join in this flaming trollfest.


Isn't it obvious the economy is in big trouble?
That being the case, the revenue required to keep it afloat for a few more years before we all belong to Indian and Chinese masters....will have to be procured from the poorest sections of society in tax hikes and loss of services/benefits.
Taxing the very rich till they squeal is a joke, they have too many loopholes and are too few in number to make a significant difference to the exchequer.

Every time Capitalism fucks up the poor pay!....just like we all payed to bail out the banking system.
We deserve all we get for believing the shit politicians feed us.

In todays paper, Fidel admitted the Cuban model has failed in many respects....and that model is as near to socialism as we are ever likely to see.

We need something completely different....maybe we should ask Monty Python?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

GfS - you're right, as I certainly don't "get" the point of your link. Google regularly changes the ads prefacing its sponsored videos on YouTube, so what I saw was a pointless ad for L'Oreal Skin Cleanser which is probably completely different from what you wanted to direct me to. The music that followed was an abysmally bland performance of Die Moldau/ Vlatava by Smetana with a badly made video of out-of-focus sunlight on a flowing stream. Here is some wonderful music being prostituted to sell soap, and to promote "relaxation".

Why not listen instead to this recording from 1950: Toscanini conducts Smetana Ma Vlast No.2: Vltava? This isn't music as a tranquilliser; it is there to inspire, excite, entertain and interest you.

Anyway, John MacKenzie has set out his stall by titling this thread 'Blind Stupidity', and calling any disagreement "doctrinaire left-wing backlash". He has made it clear that he doesn't want to start a discussion, but means rather to provoke a reaction - in which he has already succeeded!

However I'm going to give him some discussion points whether he wants them or not.

The BBC report he linked to from the Trades Union Congress (TUC) meeting in Birmingham, does not state that unions have adopted a policy of strikes in opposition to anticipated cuts by the UK coalition government. Brendan Barber, the TUC leader, is quoted in the report as saying that "unions would reach out to the wider community to form a "progressive alliance" to make the case for alternatives to spending cuts." Other union leaders are certainly considering industrial action as an option to defend services, but at the moment they and the TUC are providing the most effective counter argument to the goverernment's claim that cuts are inevitable. There is a choice ahead of us; it is clear that the government is using the plea of economic necessity to make the cuts it wants to make.

The leaks coming out of government circles into the press indicate that the most severe impact of spending cuts will be on the elderly, the poor, the sick, the disabled, the North, and on women and children. The wealthy in the South-East won't be touched. Far from the BBC having a left-wing bias, it is helping to soften up public opinion by reporting on The Public Spending Review which examines what cuts will be made.

I'm a public servant, and I'm proud to be one. I support adults with learning disabilities to gain independence, and to live meaningful lives. I want to protect them, and I want to defend my job. My knowledge, skills and experience are there to help them. I don't intend to see that thrown away to protect bankers and marketmakers. I don't want to strike as that will hurt the very people I look after - but I would do so if that becomes the only way to save them from being the victims of "market forces".

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:13 PM

OK, I deleted all the name-calling posts, and all posts that referred to the name-calling posts. I'm not going to bother investigating this argument - I'm just going to do away with it.

Now, please go back to the original topic of discussion, and keep it civil.

Thank you.
-Joe Offer-

I added to the thread title to give some idea of the actual topic of discussion, but I don't really know what this is about. Suggestions for a better thread title are appreciated (by Personal Message). Thanks to Matthew Edwards for explaining that TUC = Trades Union Congress. Now, is it possible to discuss this matter without bludgeoning each other to a pulp?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:12 AM

I predicted a left wing backlash, and I got it, as expected.
The reason I said that was because I find those of doctrinaire tendencies, tend to argue from within the rules of their own particular doctrine, and are blind to any other points of view.
The situation this country is in requires thought, and not just a knee jerk reaction.

"The RMT is asking the TUC to back calls for co-ordinated industrial action "to defend jobs, pensions and conditions".
Bob Crow

That's the sort of knee jerk reaction I'm talking about,

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:31 AM

I'm not sure what concerted industrial action would achieve. Like it or not, we are stuck with this government for the next four and a half years.

I agree with the view that the 'financial crisis' is being used as a means of covering up the Tory agenda to attack the public sector anyway, and what makes it worse in my opinion is that at the same time they are maneuvering the third sector to do their bidding.

In my viewit will be the weakest and most disadvantaged in society that will suffer most - including those in part-time low paid work who can barely get by at the moment. Industrial action, tends to be a the powerful meeting the powerful head-on. The government has nopthing to lose if services grind to a standstill, particularly as Middle England constituences decide the outcome of elections - the inner cities who don't support the government anyway would be hardest hit. The government bringing the disadvantaged to its knees, and the unions giving them a kick in the teeth for good measure.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:33 AM

And as expected, John has made absolutely no attempt to read, let alone engage with, let alone comprehend, any of the posts in this thread.

In fact, he hasn't even taken the time to read the article he posted.

So what is left?

Nothing - other than john sitting with a smug grin on his face, his fingers in his ears - well one of them anyway (the other is tickling his prostate gland) shouting LA LA LA at the top of his voice.

Where are the nurses when you need them ... oh I forgot ... they've all been sacked!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM

"Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!! "

Well, what do you expect from right wing doctrinaire stupidity. Their policies are simply based on outmoded and unworkable economics. As anyone who has run a successful business will know, this is the way to head straight for bankruptcy, as has been stated by certain members of the Bank of England Monetary Policy comittee. Use sensible cost-cutting measures, sure, but concentrate more on generating income. What this mess of a government has so far managed to do (in record time) is instil a sense of doom and gloom that discourages spending, investment and will extend the recession far longer. It's time for tax cuts and more employment instead of throwing people onto dole queues.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:16 AM

Fact. Every advantage I have had in life has come from the democratic party.
Fact. The republican party has never done one thing for the benefit of the working man.

All else is commentary.

There should be two big statues in Washington; one of FDR for Social Security,
and one for LBJ for Medicare.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:03 AM

We need to raise the basic rate of income tax. We need to fight all public sector cuts, not just for saving the jobs of school, health and local authority workers but also because many jobs in the private sector rely on a strong public sector. It's an illusion to think that the private sector will take over the reins - it too will be crippled by public sector cuts. The economy has to grow, which would go a long way to reducing the deficit, but this government is going to make that a near-impossibility. You can't grow unless people spend money, and you're not going to spend money if your pension is frozen or delayed, if your annuity is worth diddley, if your savings don't make you anything, if you're out of work, if you're on short time, if there's a threat of redundancy, if your pay is frozen, if there is a swingeing VAT increase, if you feel insecure about the future. I note from the news this morning that banker bonuses are right back up to pre-crunch levels, whilst the ConDems are simultaneously attacking welfare. How normal. The trade unions would be in dereliction of their duties if they stood by and let all this happen without a fight. Not words, not just giving your point of view - a fight. I should like the original poster to give me his alternatives. Just let this deluded government get on with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM

The lunatic right have learned nothing from Keynes.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 09:26 AM

I'm asking for YOUR contribution to the discussion, not a series of links to articles which chime with your point of view, or prove your prejudices.
Too many people on this web site, rely on cut and paste for their, rebuttals, or confirmation.
Yes, I agree, income tax should rise, I have said this before, and indirect taxation should be reduced, as it hits those on fixed or low incomes, unfairly.
I also think double taxation, like VAT and Excise Duty being levied on the same items. Road fuel for instance, due to the escalator [now dead]has reached stupendous levels of taxation.
Striking, or looking for excuses to do so, will solve nothing. In the same way as stamping your foot shows you're frustrated, but doesn't lessen that frustration.
Nor will scatalogical and personal insults solve anything, they merely show the juvenility of the person who uses them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 09:46 AM

Well I've never been a masochist. I don't believe I should take the beating for someone else's mistakes and folly. I don't blame others when life goes wrong for me and I don't expect others to pay for my mistakes. This is what it really boils down to. Mis-management by highly paid, greedy people both in government of all political colours and big business. Quite frankly why should any of us that have nothing to do with this mess be forced to pay for their mistakes and greed?

So John, this comment is a left wing backlash iand it is about portioning blame and consequence.

Left to me, I would strip those to blame of their assetts and give them £65 a week to live on as they expect others to have to do. I would make the price of failure by these people so high so they would have to walk round the streets with sack cloth and bells and oh yes, I would give their houses to Roumanian Gipsies. Hows that for knee jerk? Ah yes,I would publically flog Bliar.

And as Kendall said and we ordinary people should remember the only freedoms we have in this country (and his)have been fought for by ordinary people, many times with their lives over hundreds of years. How long before common man got the right to vote? How long before women got the right to vote? How long before holidays became statutory and eventually paid leave? Were it not for trade unions then wages would remain at pitifully low levels. The houses we live in would be tied to the jobs we do and children would still be sent down the pit. You are a Scot John, do you really believe you should pay homage and fealty to the Laird?

The trade unions have done much that was wrong and worse is the hypocrasy of the leadership that sends people out on strike and still takes full pay but unless ordinary people stand up and say we should not pay for the mistakes of others. We are not here to fund your indulgent lifestyle and provide benefits for your comfort whilst you carry on ripping us off, what else are we to do?

Before anyone shouts that the country is full of benefit cheats, immigrants and scroungers (As made centre of the hate campaign by the media) I know much is wrong, however this government is not the cure and it, like previous ones does not address the cause.

You got any savings? Not worth a lot are they? You get a pension? Isn't worth much is it nowadays? Like the cost of fuel and food as it is? Make the most of it because if you think it is expensive now, it'll go sky high in January when the VAT increase kicks in.

In conclusion to this leftish doctrinaire rant. I'd sooner spend my taxes helping some unfortunate who has lost their job than give another penny to some rich, undeserving scumbag to waste on their champagne lifestyle.

Nobody voted for a Cameron Clegg party.

OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM

In reality. Outright striking will do very little other than hurt those low paid workers whose union will call them out on stike pay. It will not change policy and only lead to increased pay for the police who will rub their hands at the chance of huge overtime payments and the chance to exercise their muscle.(In the miners strike many officers paid off their mortgages and or had really great summer holidays)

Huge civil disobedience will only give rise to the mob and again, the police will come off best.

The anti poll tax demonstrations did make a difference and perhaps getting enough people on the streets peacefully might sway political opinion.

Whilst we remain divided as a population we are easy to control. The rich and powerful people,behind government, those who drive the economic agenda along in the background continue to hide behind the political body. Rich and don't care, they are the ones who need most action against. If people strike, they only hurt their fellows in some way. The strikes if there are to be, need to be in the private industries, not the public ones. Cutting nurses, cleaners all manner of local government workers is old hat. They have always been the target and with predictable results. The private sector is where it will really hurt.

The low paid industrial,blue collar and white collar workers will suffer as badly as the public sector when the cuts bite deeper. Small businesses will go to the wall and there will be more unemployed needing more benefits. We are I think going to be set into a downward spiral.

When you say "Income tax shoulkd rise", do mean the upper levels/rates or generally across the boards. The low paid are alreay highly taxed (So mmuch for Clegg's tax threshold of £10,000.00) Most people see their hard earned wage taxation wasted by successive governments. Our taxes are squandered, wasted, propping up a banking system where huge bonuses are given to a select few on top of huge salaries. Where billions are spent on keeping two armies in illogical, ill concived wars and supporting an underclass that could have been avoided were it not for the right wing approach of the seventies. Given to feckless and greedy top civil servants and MP's etc etc. We need a radical rethink of political direction. Given that communism isn't a viable system. The poorly attempted socialist vision only left us in this mess and the push towards right wing capitalism that is rearing it's head and has only ever failed in recent times what is there?

No matter what, we can not sit by while the rich and powerful drive us back to pre war poverty and working conditions. Haven't we moved further forward than that?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:44 AM

"Striking, or looking for excuses to do so, will solve nothing."
Then what, in your opinion, will?
The government is not going to tax the rich to fill the vast hole in the economy caused by the greed and incompetence of those who control our lives. Instead, they will attempt to take more from us, cut the minimum wage, close hospitals, reduce pensions......
Nor will they attempt to stop bankers giving themselves huge bonuses out of our money, rather they will tell us that we have to pay for the best - little more than rubbing our noses in the heap of shit THEY have made of the economy.
In the half century I spent working for a living I never once had an employer come up and say to me "I've done well this year - take a rise in wages"; rather it was "take what you're given or go and find somewhere else".
The only negotiating power I ever had was my skill as a tradesman and the right to withdraw it.
The only "blind stupidity" would be not to recognise that right and be prepared to exercise it.
Perhaps you might like to suggest an alternative? If not, your statements are nothing more than a right-wing rant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

Clegg's £10000 threshhold was cobblers. There are droves of people at the very bottom end who would not benefit from that anyway. I think the rate should rise across the board, instead of raising VAT and national insurance. In fact, I'd even like to see VAT go back down to 15% or lower to get people spending money on stuff. Putting VAT up just after Christmas when people will be feeling skint is just about the stupidest idea I've ever heard. I don't know the maths of it but why not put the rate back to 25%, the pre-Thatcher rate? At least income tax has some relationship with the ability to pay. You could have three tiers instead of two which would help protect the lowest earners. Cutting jobs and services just means more people with less money to spend and less revenue for the government, so growth will be prevented, or worse. There's your potential downward spiral. God knows what we can do about all that other stuff in your last paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

That was to eric.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:26 AM

I agree with the majority of your post Eric, especially the first paragraph where you state, "Mis-management by highly paid, greedy people both in government of all political colours and big business."
It is all too common for the blame to be lumped unfairly on one side or the other. Some people's response would appear to be almost invariably, blame Maggie Thatcher, knee jerk again!
In reality they are all in the thrall of big business, in fact Tony Blair would have loved to be even more in with them, as he was desperate to lessen the influence of the trades unions on his New Labour invention.
Seems odd to try to cut out those who started a a party, from that party, but there you go. A better man with faith in his politics, would have started a new party.
No Jim it's not a right wing rant, it's realism.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

I think that David Blanchflower has the right idea when he urges the governemt to give workers a tax holiday for two years and reduce NIC to 5%. This, he says, "would revive economic growth and probably reduce the size of the budget deficit in the long run as it would increase Government revenue." A bit too radical for this government's regressive thinking, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

Maybe it is time for a bit of mob rule?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:56 AM

Richard, I think the unions need to tread carefully. I'm sure this government would have no compunction about employing Thatcherite methods such as using the police as a repressive (and aggressive) force to attack protesters.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:13 PM

"No Jim it's not a right wing rant, it's realism. "
The realism for us is that they have closed our local A&E and are now proposing to close a whole hospital
Still waiting for your alternative instead of 'they should...' (which they won't, of course).
The latest economic report says that it could take ten years to sort out the present mess CAUSED BY THEIR GREED AND MISMANAGEMENT - and then we can return to where we were two years ago.
In the meantime, (as those reports which have refused to look at show) those who caused the crash continue to reward themselves astronomical bonuses - is that your solution?
Sorry John - it's a right-wing rant, as more than adequately proved by; "invariably, blame Maggie Thatcher"
General Pinochet's friend systematically set out to smash the trades unions, thus taking away what little voice we had in our lives.
As I said, a right wing rant with arguments like that (and heroes like that).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM

Sorry Steve, which bit and in which context?

I agree Clegg's £10,000 was an attempt at a vote catching bribe which I didn't believe anyway. I've never liked VAT. It was a replacement of purchase/sales tax.I agree that a lower rate of VAT would encourage people to spend more. It was introduced in Britain in 1973, at a standard rate of 10 per cent, In July 1974, the standard rate was reduced to 8 per cent, and four months later a higher rate - 25 per cent - was introduced on petrol. Two years later, this rate was reduced to 12.5 per cent.Under thatcher, the higher rate was abolished in 1979 and a unified rate of 15 per cent introduced. Since then it has been continually extended in the goods and services it applies to. Putting it up to 20% as you say, especially at a time when families will be hit the hardest is more than stupid. It is a social slap in the face for the lower and modestly paid and makes a political point from a right wing government.

The base rate at 0.5% has starved small and modest savers of any return but kept those with mortgages in housing (Unlike the thatcher years when it rose to around 16% and reposessions abounded) Savers with large amounts to invest have always found ways of moving their money around to advantage.

"don't know the maths of it but why not put the rate back to 25%, the pre-Thatcher rate?" I don't understand that bit, are you suggesting that we go back to a sales tax of 25% on everything?

I do know this, that under the last tory government when public utility services were sold off to the rich there were huge job losses. That put many hard working people on a lifetime of unemployment in the name of efficiency. I never considered it efficient to take work away from someone who was productive and put them onto social benefits paid for by the tax payer. It ruins lives and futures.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

Sorry, eric, I meant a 25% income tax rate. I'm not having a good day on the clarity front. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM

Sorry Jim, it was said as an example of the sloppy thinking, some people indulge in.
If you wish to characterise my posts as right wing, feel free. However I think you'll find I agree with many of the things you believe in too, we just disagree on the method of opposition.
What would I do?
I would scrap Trident, and I would opt out of the the nuclear club.
I would encourage smaller families, by means of a reward system via taxation. I would bring in a luxury tax, and reduce taxation on essentials. I would means test universal benefits. Why should millionaires be entitled to the Winter Fuel Allowance, Child Allowance, or a bus pass, should they wish to apply for one.
There should be an upper income threshold which disqualifies people from ALL state benefits.
None of these ideas impact on the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM

"I would scrap Trident, and I would opt out of the the nuclear club."
Sorry John - I asked you to suggest an alternative, not what YOU would do- you, as the rest of us, have no control whatever in what THEY do or are doing.
You chose to describe some effort by the trades unions towards our having a voice in our present situation as "blind stupidity", therefore we can only assume that your suggestion as what we can do is bend over and be shafted - do I have that right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:58 PM

Disingenuous of John to dismiss any response to his hysterical assessment, in advance, as a "doctrinaire left-wing backlash." So satisfied was he that he would provoke such a reaction that he waited for only three restrained responses - one of which he didn't even bother to look at - before gleefully claiming "here they come!" As our moderator has had to intervene to clean up this thread, it would seem that John duly achieved his objective and will be feeling rather pleased with himself.

On the question of the TUC's blind stupidity, other posters, including those moderate early ones, have pointed out that the prevailing mood was for protest and campaigning rather than for Bob Crow's preferred route of industrial action (although industrial action does not necessarily mean strike action). Meanwhile the deals still being struck for bank leaders who were instrumental in creating the present crisis continue to be obscene and provocative, to the extent that they have been condemned by opposition and government politicians alike.

But for simple-minded, innocently apolitical John, it is the TUC which is guilty of blind stupidity.

If I gently suggest that the balance between going for growth and paying down the deficit has been tilted too far in favour of paying down the deficit, I am in line with David Blanchflower and - again - many politicians and many intelligent analysts. That doesn't mean I would be right, just that it's a reasonable point of view. But for John, rooted in his prejudgment, that would be a "doctrinaire leftwing" response.

And it would be futile to question a government that promised (and later claimed to have delivered) a progressive budget when in fact it turned in a regressive budget. John has already provided his response at the top of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

The public sector unions seem to think that public sector jobs are sacrosanct. Fair enough, that's what they're there to protect. However the reality is that savings have to be made - anyone who's had any dealings with the public bodies knows too well that they're monstrously inefficient. The private sector has been forced to cut jobs for some time - why should the public sector be immune? Why should someone be paid public money to do a job which is not necessary?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:27 PM

Three words: inequality, inequality, inequality.

The Con-dems ludicrous idea of the 'Big Society' (read 'Big Profits from Society') is about to roll a wrecking ball through the very heart of our actual society. Aside from the possible irreversible damage the welfare state might sustain (and I agree it does need reform) we are going to find our schools, healthcare system and our very culture being delivered into the hands of capitalists, and that is appallingly news. Remember, capitalism is about turning a profit, not altruism.

As the Thatcherite-lite goons of New Labour have only added to the gap between rich and poor I'm not sure what choice the left has but to proscribe some sort of action. Although I'm not much of fan of strikes I think Bob Crow's idea of mass civil disobedience has some merit and I'd be in favour.

Once we loose many of these services, it's going to be very difficult to ever get them back.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM

Prescribe, not proscribe.

"The big society" is a dogwhistle for getting the poor to do at their own expense what the government should be doing and paying for. It's an opt-out for the rich robber barons.

If Poland can dethrone an oppressive regime, so can we.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:28 PM

I don't know what the alternative is in that case, but I still think strikes are self defeating, they don't just harm governments, they harm all of us.
What do they hope to achieve by going on strike anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM

"Prescribe, not proscribe."

Oops! Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:50 PM

The thing that makes this so offensive is that we, the public, are the mojority shareholder in the banks that were bailed out.

Thats how it worked.

We bought the banks to save them from ruin.

There is nothing stopping the government from cutting the bonuses and taking a share of the profits.

Instead, they continue to pay the idiots who ran them into the ground and are doing untold damage to both society and the economy.


Yes folks - be in no doubt - the bonuses are being paid by us - we own the banks - we pay the wages - we pay the bonuses.

In what other company can you imagine the shareholders being taxed to compensate for the excesses of their employees, after having bought them out of trouble.



The mind boggles just how bad this would have been if there were no libs in there to at least engage in "lively discussion"

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM

"but I still think strikes are self defeating,"
Sorry again John - a meaningless slogan of those who have no need to take such measures to get a decent standard of living or reasonable working conditions. Strikes are difficult, create hardships and are often degrading and dehumanising, but they can be extremely effective; as can just the threat of one. And if they're all you've got, well, they're all youve got.
Anybody who has been on strike will tell you that the decision to go on strike is not taken lightly, and is only resorted to when all else fails
I've been on strike only twice in my working life; as an apprentice on the Liverpool docks, against the use of apprentices as labourers and tea lads, and as an electrician, against being forced to work with cancerous asbestos without protective clothing and masks. In the case of the latter, I'm proud to say that our victory ensured that me and my fellow workers (and those who came after us) didn't end our days with lungs like sponges, breathing into a bag.
You fail to come up with a solution - how about if our elected trades union officials became fully involved as consultants in any programme to see the country out of the mess we're in THROUGH NO FAULT OF OUR OWN?
One would wish for a Trades Union leadership that hadn't climbed into the pockets of the establishment, attracted by promises of seats in the House of Lords or on boardrooms, but as before, if that's all you've got, it's all you've got.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:31 PM

However, it begins to seem as if the TUC has (unlike the Con-Doms) principles, even if we in the UK are mostly too scared by Thatcher's union-smashing legislation to join the European general strike.

Jim - on this thread, more power to your elbow!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:41 PM

Convert the banks we have bailed out to mutual societies so that the executives are accountable to the account holders rather than the shareholders.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

Well, we shall see what happens, but my mind goes back to the miner's strike, were a lot of bitterness was engendered, a lot of lives were blighted, and in the end, nobody won any more than they had been offered at the beginning.
We mustn't get into that macho culture situation again.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM

Somebody mentioned Cuba earlier in the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM

"but my mind goes back to the miner's strike,"
So does mine - do you want to tell us how many pits were closed, how many mining communities were destroyed and how many men lost their jobs because Pinochet's friend was allowed to use the police force as a private army and managed to crush the strike?
Would it have been better to lay down and let her just close the pits and sack the men she intended to without opposition without putting up a fight?
Jim Carroll