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Tech: Sibelius vs Finale

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Nigel Paterson 20 Sep 10 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,highlandman at work 20 Sep 10 - 01:02 PM
Wolfhound person 20 Sep 10 - 03:33 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,andrew 20 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM
s&r 20 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM
RTim 20 Sep 10 - 07:36 PM
s&r 20 Sep 10 - 07:50 PM
Nick 20 Sep 10 - 08:15 PM
Artful Codger 20 Sep 10 - 11:21 PM
GUEST,andrew 20 Sep 10 - 11:44 PM
Anglo 21 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM
Artful Codger 21 Sep 10 - 12:27 AM
JohnInKansas 21 Sep 10 - 06:41 AM
Nigel Paterson 21 Sep 10 - 07:01 AM
Nigel Paterson 23 Sep 10 - 06:57 AM
Artful Codger 23 Sep 10 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,andrew 23 Sep 10 - 05:06 PM
Stringsinger 24 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,leeneia 24 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM
Nigel Paterson 27 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM
RTim 27 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,leeneia 27 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,guest 27 Sep 10 - 11:23 PM
Nigel Paterson 29 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM
Nigel Paterson 03 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,leeneia 03 Oct 10 - 09:28 PM
Nigel Paterson 04 Oct 10 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 09 Oct 10 - 05:49 AM
Geoff the Duck 09 Oct 10 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 09 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM
Geoff the Duck 09 Oct 10 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 09 Oct 10 - 09:39 AM
Mark Clark 09 Oct 10 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 Oct 10 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,stringsinger 09 Oct 10 - 04:28 PM
andrew e 09 Oct 10 - 08:59 PM
Anglo 09 Oct 10 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 10 Oct 10 - 05:20 AM
Nigel Paterson 10 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM
Nigel Paterson 10 Oct 10 - 06:18 AM
Nigel Paterson 10 Oct 10 - 11:46 AM
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s&r 11 Oct 10 - 12:05 PM
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GUEST,Tom Bliss 11 Oct 10 - 05:48 PM
andrew e 11 Oct 10 - 06:54 PM
Nick 11 Oct 10 - 07:10 PM
Artful Codger 11 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM
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Mark Clark 11 Oct 10 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 12 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM
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Subject: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 12:36 PM

My publisher, for whom I have written nothing since the early '80s has 'suddenly' decided to shake up my retirement with some commissions. I'm happy with my composing software (Logic Pro 9), but Logic's score writing capability is rather limited. A range of views around the Sibelius/Finale debate could be very useful. Currently, I favour Finale, but I'm open to all comments from Sibelius fans, or indeed any other score writing program that can produce results that are commensurate with commercial publication.
                                                       Best Regards to All,
                                                                                        Nigel P.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 01:02 PM

Nigel-
I can't compare with Sibelius but I can give some comments on Finale.
I have used several of Finale's products, the highest one being PrintMusic.
It does what it says on the tin -- the description of features on the website pretty much says what it can do, and what it doesn't say probably won't be there.
It installs easily and the licensing system is not a hassle.
I have used it mostly for choral arrangements and it does everything I need, including lyrics, performance markings, key- and time-signature changes, etc.

On the negative side, it and almost every other score writing program I have seen will sometimes produce less-than-attractive results on the page. At times the mathematical spacing of the notes doesn't quite give the visual impression one would expect, making sight reading a little quirky. This is not a problem for me, most of the time, considering my budget and my intended final use.

If your work is going to be re-engraved professionally for publication I would think the Finale would be fine. If it is expected to be camera-ready, you might find it inadequate.

I have experimented with a program called MusicTex. It requires textual input to describe the musical parts and converts it to a very professional, very sophisticated PDF output. It incorporates spacing rules developed by trained engravers. It uses a beautifully designed note font. And it's free -- but man, is it ever hard to use! I gave up on the thing after a while.

Hope this helps
-Glenn


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 03:33 PM

I use MusicTex all the time, but as a stage from abc. Have done for 16 years. I find all other outputs inadequate, but I am only doing melody lines.
Big advantage: it's free. Disadvantage: steep installation / learning curve.

Paws


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM

All I can add is that at the Sage Gateshead, North-East England music venue, they use (or, at least, did a couple of yers ago) Sibelius.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,andrew
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM

I've used "Finale" [the full one] for 7 years, mostly for SATB arrangements.It does everything I need, and also has a free "Finale Reader",so I can send files to choir members.
Everything can be adjusted, so you can make it look just how you want it to.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: s&r
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM

This is Mozart. It's good, and easier to learn and cheaper than Sibelius and Finale both of which I use.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: RTim
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 07:36 PM

How many of you are Mac users - and does that cause more or less issues??

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: s&r
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 07:50 PM

Mozart is PC only. The others are mac or pc

Stu


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nick
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 08:15 PM

One that a friend mentioned to me when my son was looking for something similar (no access to Sibelius after leaving school) was the open source Muse Score but whether it is good enough I don't know


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:21 PM

Publishers may only need exported MusicXML, which can be fed into their more expensive software to produce more professional-looking scores. Finale does support MusicXML export, though I can't vouch for how well their format is handled by other software. I generally dislike using higher-end music composition programs because they tie you into their format, and then you're stuck using their product (or exporting some bastardized version of your score, or reinputting it afresh.) As with all major corporations, it's all about the profit stream, never about the user.

Finale has many drawback which I find frustrating. Off the top of my head:

You can only place repeats and section bars at the end of full measures. In folk music, repeated sections frequently begin with pickup notes, and the end repeat mark is offset from the full measure bar line accordingly.

Similarly, you can only place key, clef, tempo and meter changes at the start of a bar. As with repeats, this is frequently not their most natural position. And you can't place fermatas over bar lines.

Keyboard input of dotted rhythms and triplets is klutzy.

The editing capabilities are klutzy--I find the product only useful for copying already completed scores. If you get the timing off, it doesn't allow you to just shift the entered notes, and particularly hashes note lengths which span bar lines (converted into tied notes, with no memory of how they were created). If you need to edit a bar, it won't allow you to temporarily exceed the capacity of the bar (to add some notes, then delete others), and if you delete notes first, it appends rests which you then have to explicitly delete or alter to add in the new notes. The copy/paste of note regions other than full bars I've always found unreliable.

For piano parts, you can't have one hand cross staves in the middle of a bar, certainly not with beams. At best, you can play games with layers and hidden rests.

It's difficult to notate holding a note while playing subsequent notes over it. This makes it particularly difficult to properly notate many piano parts.

You keep having to change "tools" to add things like articulation marks, and they aren't "sticky" (so that the default mark is the same as the last you selected), despite what the documentation claims.

You can't add an additional page for full or partial lyrics.

You can't hide staves which are unused for part or all of a line (such as when a song breaks out into a four-part harmony section), or relabel a lead part as a chorus part.

After adding new measures which flow onto a new page (by commands or by copies), the program often fails to allow you to move to the new page until you do some other repositioning operations.

You can't define your own score templates unless you buy their most costly product; instead, you have to use one of their predefined templates (which oddly lack some of the most common combinations, like "piano and voice") or set up the score yourself.

It doesn't properly handle MusicXML files generated from ABC programs, and it doesn't import ABC files at all. Forget about conversion.

If you fail to fill in any fields in the header information (like subtitle or copyright), they get filled with text like "[Subtitle]"--which also appears on print-outs! They can be temporarily voided with spaces, but upon reloading the score, the placeholders will appear again. (I insert non-breaking spaces, which seem to be retained and respected.) But some of the information you enter isn't included in the templates, and will not appear at all. The program does do what one would expect: automatically supply the information you supply, in default positions and order (if not explicitly inserted elsewhere).

In short, Finale appears to have been developed by programmers with little real experience doing anything but copying classical music (and only simple scores, at that). And it expects users to think more like programmers than musicians. It floors me that the user base hasn't burned the company's ears off with complaints. If Sibelius didn't cost so damn much, I've have ditched Finale long ago.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,andrew
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:44 PM

Hi Artful Codger,

Which "Finale" are you using? The full one?

If you go to http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6 for a Mac
or http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5 for a PC
and ask questions there, you will find that most, if not all the things you mentioned can be done. There is a way!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Anglo
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM

Well, Codger, how artful are you? I have met most of the issues you bring up in your Finale crit, and while some of them are perhaps less intuitive than others, I have no problems. I've been using Finale for camera-ready copy for a number of years and find that I can do anything I need. Occasionally there's an awkward workaround I admit. But it's occasionally.

I own Sibelius (I bought a competitive upgrade when it was on sale) but I have not learned it, and have only used it when I have files sent to me to edit. So I can't compare the two. But I have seen no reason to abandon Finale, apart from the annual (expensive to me) upgrades. But earlier versions work well for me, and you only need a later version if someone sends you files. Finale files are not backwards compatible, ie you can't open them in earlier versions of Finale. But they can be exported in XML and opened that way if you have the software available for that.

Finale's text handling, I admit, is adequate at best. I generally do book layout in a page layout program and export Finale music graphics into it, and handle text there.

Hope this helps.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:27 AM

No, with PrintMusic 2010 they can't be done in any natural way. Some can be emulated in bizarre, unnatural ways (like layers and hidden rests), but the program does not support these features in any direct way, and neither the interface nor the documentation indicates any way to get around things like the end-of-measure fixity. A couple features are addressed in the high-end Finale (such as the ability to define your own templates), but the full documentation for that product indicates no resolution for the most troublesome problems I've listed for PrintMusic, which is why I won't upgrade to the high-end version, nor even upgrade to the just-released version of PrintMusic. I only upgraded to 2010 because of a licensing problem--the added enhancements I don't care about (and in fact, made it more difficult to use the program), while none of the basic features needed to write even simple music properly were added. Incredible.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 06:41 AM

It's not clear (to me) whether the original question asks specifically about the product Finale, published by the company named Make Music, vs the product Sibelius, published by Sibelius, or if other products with similar or other names by the same (and/or other) publishers are of interest.

If only the "flagship" products, Finale and Sibelius, are intended, I've found little difference between the two although I haven't used either to any extent.

Both are fully capable of creating "engraver quality" scores of any complexity desired.

Both are incredibly complex with steep learning curves if other than simple scores are needed (and in some respects are a bit "cumbersome" for simple scores).

Both are "reasonably(?) priced" if you qualify for their "student discounts" but are "punitively priced" if you don't.

Both companies (and also gVox) offer "lesser products" that are of varying capabilities and complexity. Print Music is a "lesser product" that I find "clumsy" to use, but LiK likes it and uses it some. I generally use MusicTime Deluxe from gVox (flagship program Encore), but only because it's the only thing available that imports my old scores made in a cheaper (and IMO better) program that gVox bought and destroyed. (MusicTime, in the version I have, is "unstable" in Vista and frequently crashes, among other problems. Newer versions might not have that problem.(?))

If the full features of the Sibelius or Finale programs (full flagships) are not needed, one of the simpler and cheaper programs would likely be more suitable; but a knowledgeable choice from the many lesser programs can only be made in the context of the specific capabilities needed and with fairly specific knowledge of what features are not necessary for a user's intended purposes. Giving too much credibility to the opinions of others who may have even "trivially different" needs and uses can be dangerous.

For the flagship programs, trial versions should be available by download or in some cases on CD from larger music stores. The CD trial version of Sibelius that I have curiously (I might say "stupidly") disables the Help files, but selecting a command on the toolbar and "F1" opens the help for that command and you can navigate to other info if you leave it open. It's a rather old version.)

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:01 AM

Thank you all so much for taking the time & trouble to respond in such depth...insightful, interesting & very helpful. I have heard it said that Sibelius is the preferred route for music preparation, ie, score & parts for live performance, whereas Finale is the publisher's choice where the music ends up in book form or sheet music. Perhaps I should also have said earlier that I'm a Mac user.
                                  Kind Regards to All,
                                                                     Nigel P.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 06:57 AM

Just one refresh, but I think I have all the info to finally make up my mind...I did originally favour Finale, but it now looks like Sibelius has it by a short head.
                         Thanks once again to all contributors,
                                                                                           Nigel P.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:27 PM

According to the release information, PrintMusic 2011 (finally) allows you to hide unused staves.

Regarding the header info, I meant to say "The program does not do what one expects...." I should mention, however, that you can manually add text fields with header field inserts to get the information which doesn't show by default. Unnecessarily time-consuming, is all.

As for the other items I mentioned, if you know how they can be done, please post them (perhaps in a separate thread). Saying "check the forum" isn't very helpful: it's like trying to find needles in haystacks.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,andrew
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:06 PM

Hi AC,

If you ask questions on the forum, there are some very knowledgable people who will help you, and usually very quickly!
Don't forget to say which Finale you are using.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM

I am a Sibelius user. Finale is Parkinson's Law. You have to do one thing before you do another. Sibelius lets you do what you need to do right now and it's more user friendly.
Also, the scores look good and are publishable.

It's top of the line. You can Export to Midi and paste into Logic Pro without any problem.
Logic Pro sounds better when you play it back. Lots of good instruments there.
I'll use BIAB and Sibelius MIDI when pasting into Logic and am happy with the results.
Plus, you can overdub audio files with Logic after pasting in.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM

Okay, Nigel. You're the composer, but you haven't dealt with this publisher for 20-30 years. Did the publisher or printer say that you have to buy Finale or Sibelius? Or is this Music Acquisition Syndrome?

(By 'printer' I don't mean a white plastic thing which sits on a table, I mean a corporation which prints things using printing presses.)

How big an income do you expect to result from this work? I understand that Sibelius and Finale cost hundreds of dollars. Will the profit cover that, plus more for taxes, plus something for you?

It could be that you could do your composing in Logic and the printer will simply import your work into a fancier program and then do the actual printing.

Remember, a penny saved is noticeably more than a penny earned.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

Thanks Frank, your comments underscore my current thinking.
Jeeneia...appreciate your pragmatic approach. My publisher would be equally happy with Sibelius or Finale. As for 'Music Acquisition Syndrome'...no, I buy what I need, I'm immune to MAS! You're right, these top end programs are expensive & I don't expect to earn a fortune from the project, but I do expect to 'cover my costs' (eventually!)
          Thanks both for your contributions,
                                                                         Nigel P.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: RTim
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM

Following "Nick" above and his recommendation of "Muse Score",
I gave my wife the link (she was a Basic Finale user) and she LOVES the new downloaded
Muse Score.
Thanks - Nick!

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

Immune to Music Acquistion Syndrome? Have you had a vaccination? If so, please share the source for this wonderful thing. :)

I could use it myself.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:23 PM

A bit tangential, but I've used a free online program called Noteflight for simple music writing and it works very well.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM

Jeeneia, regarding MAS, yes, I was 'vaccinated' many years ago. A painful process as I recall...it involved crushing the 'dongle' from an Atari ST computer (remember them?), this was then mixed with various other noxious substances & infused intravenously over a number of hours. I remain cured to this day, but I believe the E.U. has subsequently outlawed the process! On a more serious note (no pun intended), advancing years & living on a pension has proved to be the best cure for MAS I know.
                On a more interesting note (still no pun intended!), with some help from my friends at Apple, I have discovered that the score writing function in Logic Pro is much more fully featured than I had originally appreciated. Apple really cram the data in & ofttimes what you are looking for is there, but hidden, requiring a left click & hold approach, rather than just a simple left click. As a result, the immediate need for Sibelius or Finale has receded somewhat.
                Many excellent & informative contributions to this thread, for which I am most grateful. The responses on Mudcat are often far superior to the 'pro' music fora...bravo!
                Kind Regards to All,
                                                 Nigel P.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM

A final refresh!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:28 PM

What kind of music are you composing, Nigel?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 04:55 AM

Jeeneia, everything from solo piano to full orchestral, but with the amateur musician in mind, rather than the experienced pro. My aim is to write accessible, attractive music with a contemporary 'feel'. My '60s folk roots have little or no influence on what I'm writing now. My contribution is a small part of a much larger project currently under development, the details of which have to remain 'under wraps' for the moment.
                                                                                                 Nigel P.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 05:49 AM

I wonder if I can borrow a bit of help from all you experienced users?

I've had Finale PrintMusic for quite a while and hate it. I've just looked up the dialogue between me and their support team, it's many pages long.

One problem was some strange glitch in the registration process - whereby no matter what I did the darn 'days left' box would re-appear at some point, and files would start to go missing etc. This was something to do with Intel Macs and whether you had a firewire drive attached or some such nonsense. The system was obviously way too clever for its own good. I remember spending ages downloading updates and deleting files and all sorts of odd activities involving other programmes but eventually finished the music I was composing. Guess what - I fired it up just now and it told me the software was not registered - but when I went to re-register (yet again) it told me I couldn't because it was. Same old loop as four years ago.

The other problem was that, unlike Cubase (which I no longer have), the software would not talk to my printer - which was just a bog standard Epson (I've got a different one now, but it's probably the same). They insisted that I needed a sophisticated printer that could handle their fonts because they won't offer a tiff or jpeg Save As. I had to use screen grabs in the end.

I'm just starting work on a really big composing project (opera) and, to my regret, I need to be able to do manuscripts again.

Is it worth my while fighting with MakeMusic yet again to try to resolve these (and probably have to buy yet another expensive update), or should I bite the bullet and go for a new Cubase (which has probably changed out of all recognition in the last 15 years) or Sibelius and a massive learning curve - for which I don't really have time.

Or is there something else (not notepad, please - that was horrid) that will do the job?

Thanks

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 07:05 AM

Tom - you might find it worth checking out http://musescore.org/.
It is cross platform and free.
If it doesn't do what you need, it is just some time lost, not hard cash.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

Thanks - but that looks to me like purely a mechanical system like notepad.

I need something that I can play stuff in real time using a click track, check and edit aurally, and then tidy up the score last.

Cubase was just a click of the mouse to switch the midi to score edit, but it wasn't very good on the pure audio side which is why I moved to pro tools.

With Finale I imported midi files from pro tools, but it was clumsy at best - any major changes and you had to go back to pro tools.

I don't think Musescore even has a midi import function, does it?

Maybe I should just go back to Cubase Score.

Cheers

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 09:08 AM

Tom - it IS a freeware programme, so may not do everything you need, but I daresay a lot of expensive ones wouldn't either.

MuseScore WILL load MIDI files and convert them to notation. I just tried with an early music file from the web. It loaded as three part staff. Don't know how accurate the transcription is. It also will save dots as a MIDI.

It seems to have some form of note entry via midi keyboard http://musescore.org/en/handbook/note-entry but I do not use a midi keyboard, so have no idea how effective it is.

What MuseScore does do is read and write MusicXML which allows you to work with other programmes that also use MusicXML.

As I say, it might not be what you need, but it is worth checking out if it might do enough to be of use.

Quack!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 09:39 AM

OK, thanks Geoff I'll look into it.

I'm planning to get a USB keyboard as I really can't remember how to operate my dusty spiders nest of midi cables, switchers, expanders etc. I never did really - just used to keep swapping leads round till it worked!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 12:42 PM

Nigel uses Logic Pro 9 so I'm assuming he's a Mac user.

There is a rather nice and free music engraver for the Mac called MuseScore that I use to make PDF scores for my iPad. It's worth trying.

I have owned a full Finale license for eighteen years or so but I never use it. I don't even update it anymore. I got so frustrated with the complexity (and I'm a computer professional) and the fact that they'd change the interface with every release so it was always like learning a new program.

If I need a publication grade score I go to LilyPond every time. Sometimes I prepare LilyPond input using TuxGuitar, sometimes I convert from ABC or MusicXML and sometimes I just type in the code.

Were I going to buy music engraving software today, it would be Sibelius 6 First which is available for under USD 100.00.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 02:39 PM

Hello, Nigel. You said " My aim is to write accessible, attractive music with a contemporary 'feel'."

That is a worthy goal. Recently I talked to a woman who directs a string orchestra (high school). She said that finding good music for the group was a big challenge. It sounds like your music would be just what she's looking for.

Best wishes for a successful effort.
===========
Tom Bliss, when you say 'notepad' do you really mean Noteworthy Composer?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:28 PM

Nigel,

The most user friendly program was Encore (which went out of business but you can still get a copy from GVox. It's a great sketch pad and I'm not sure they upgraded their graphics so that it's as good as Sibelius but it has one great usable feature. You can
print up a part, play it back, rehearse with it and then score what you've rehearsed.
To some degree you can do this with Sibelius by just selecting the line you want played by itself and rehearse with it but Encore does this easier with the flick of a space bar. I wish
all the programs had that feature.

Sibelius does export to Logic Pro. MIDI files are easy to load. I've composed for example jazz solos and exported them to Logic along with my Band In A Box files. Sometimes I mix in my BIAB with Sibelius arrangements that I've done onto Logic. BIAB sounds pretty good on Logic. You can update BIAB with digital sounds (the more expensive model) but really when converted to Logic, you can get whatever sound you want.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:59 PM

Finale Users

Have you tried asking questions on the Finale forum?
Much better and quicker than asking Finale direct

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5 PC
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6 Mac

And the unofficial [I think]
http://www.finaleforum.com/forums/

I've been using Finale for over 6 years, and have made over 500 files, mostly SATB A Cappella.
It's always done everything I need.
Took a bit of learning at first. I can send choir members files, highlighting parts to play/print on their computer using the free Finale Reader.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Anglo
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 09:30 PM

Leeneia, "Notepad" is Finale Notepad, the free very simplified version of Finale. Oops, I just checked - I thought it was free, but they're charging $10 for it now.

It is my understanding that Noteworthy Composer is PC only. Finale started as a Mac program, but has long been on both platforms.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:20 AM

There is no solution to the chief problem I'm having with Finale - at least not until they change their software to remove the bug, with relates specifically to Intel Macs and has not been fixed since I bought Printmusic in 2007.

The two other problems are the lack of a graphic output system - tiff jpeg etc - which means you can only use it with printers that support their fonts - which mine don't. I fail to see why I should have to buy an expensive printer just because they can't be bothered to develop a graphic 'safe as.'

The third problem is that when you try to register on their help page (as you'll surely need to), you are asked to provide a password. This is not one you make up on the spot and use subsequently, or have entered previously. It is actually the word 'password' - but they don't tell you this anywhere. I found out eventually by ringing the States from the UK - at great expense.

This is a random example of their 'help'

"Sorry you are having troubles!. I show your PrintMusic registered to you, and only you. Additionally, your PrintMusic shows no registrations, let alone too many."

err, I beg your pardon?

and

"If you still have trouble, [boy did I] ~SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"~ -Try this: When you initially launch PrintMusic, and are prompted to register, choose the 'Phone Method' of registration. Please check that the user code matches the one you are trying to register with (this information can be found in your registration confirmation email ~SPAN class=txt11>)~/SPAN~. Also, make sure that the serial number is entered correctly in the appropriate field. Then, re-type your authorization code ~SPAN class=txt11~ via the phone method method. This should (hopefully!) fix the issue. If the user code does not match, or if you continue to experience problems, please contact us by phone at 800-843-2066."

Clear as mud.

It then emerged that I had to have the same firewire drive connected to my Mac when opening PrintMusic as I did when I had first installed it. That drive gave up the ghost long ago, so I can't do that today. Has anyone else ever heard of such a ridiculous registration system?

They also do stupid things like calling downloads (complete new versions of the software) 'updates' (which normally means just an upgrade).

They have 'fixed' the registration problems for me now, err, five times. It has just failed again - telling me for the umpteenth time that I'm still using the demo version and I have no days credit left.

I honestly believe Make Music to be the worst software organisation I have ever encountered. By quite a long way.

However, all is well, because it now emerges that the new Pro Tools PTLE upgrade has a good score function (much like Cubase Score - which I used for many years). You can input in real time to a click track - tweak using the 'piano roll' system (which makes sense to me and look normal on a screen) and then convert to that old-time manuscript thang (where the lines all curve round and the dots jump about on the stave like swallows on phone lines - if you're a dyslexic like me) at the very last minute.

I quite like Musescore and I like the look of Lilypad, but would only use these for final output once I was 100% sure I'd got it right in a real-time-input system.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM

So many useful & interesting contributions here...turning into something of a composer/tech mini forum! As I said further back in the thread, I have discovered 'hidden score writing depths' to Logic Pro. A 'One to One' session at my local Apple store proving extremely helpful. The bottom line is, ultimately I have to produce my scores in PDF format, paying close attention to the 'house style' of my publisher. 'MuseScore' & 'LilyPond' (thanks for the links Mark) are new to me & I will be giving them a close look. Thanks also to Leeneia (apologies for spelling your name wrongly in all previous posts!)   for your good wishes...your friend with the string orchestra is just the sort of person I'm writing for. My arrangements & original compositions will be available to download sometime in 2011 from a new music website, currently under construction. It's a large project involving individual writers like myself right through to long established, international music publishing companies. The legal/logistical side of all this is somewhat daunting, but the Musician's Union in particular has been personally very supportive. I hope the wider discussions on writing & score production that have been developing in this thread continue on a while. They make for fascinating, informative reading. My thanks once again to everyone who has contributed,
                                                          Nigel Paterson.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:18 AM

Tom, your 'PrintMusic' problems would have left me suicidal! May your 'work flow' go smoothly from now on.
                                        Nigel P.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:46 AM

Had a good look at 'LilyPond' & 'MuseScore'. 'LilyPond' scares me stiff!...it's the word 'code' that worries me the most. Having said that, what one can achieve with it is undeniably impressive. 'MuseScore', on the other hand, looks much more me!
          When I look back over my career in Music, starting with 'The Halliard' (myself, Dave Moran & Nic Jones) back in the mid '60s & consider how music technology, in all it's forms, has developed, 'breathtaking' doesn't come close. Hard to believe now, that all the original Halliard albums were studio based, but recorded 'live', i.e., single, continuous takes until you had something 'in the can' you could live with...no edits, no multi-tracks, no overdubs. A fourteen track album completed in an afternoon session of no more than four hours or so. And when we did need to 'score' anything, a pencil & a few sheets of m/s paper had to suffice. Here I am now discussing the pros & cons of 'Sibelius', 'Finale' et al...a thoroughly 'analogue' musician, dragged kicking & screaming into the digital age (a few years ago now!), still somewhat in awe of what can be achieved with the laptop (MacBook Pro) on which I'm typing this post...truly amazing!
               A rather reflective Nigel Paterson.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 04:52 PM

Noteworthy composer is a Windows program, but it will run on Linux using Wine.

Wine is also available for Macs, but you have to install the source code. There are clear instructions on the Wine website, but it is not for everyone.

http://www.winehq.org/MacOSX/Building

I am a little wary of compiling and building from source code, but I had to do it recently to install a Linux sound driver on my new laptop and it turned out to be quite straightforward. Just a matter of following the instructions given.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:34 PM

Tom Bliss

Have you tried the Finale forum I mentioned before?

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5 PC
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6 Mac


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 07:19 PM

From what the MakeMusic folks told me, the registration problems occur in older versions of Finale because in a Mac OS service update, the Apple folks changed something the old Finale registration process relied upon. They had to do a lot of recoding (so they claim) to implement a new registration process, so they wouldn't provide it as an update (bug fix) to older versions; you have to upgrade ($$) to a recent version. They did release a free utility you could run to clear out the registration, allowing you to reregister, but it doesn't work reliably and the new registration won't stick. Because I normally run using a user account separate from my administrator account (registration must be done as an administrator), whenever I'd restart the program as a user, the registration test would fail again.

Since upgrading, I haven't run into a registration problem. I'm still running Leopard (Mac OS 10.5) and only upgraded to PrintMusic 2010--2011 looks like another upgrade that adds nothing of use to me.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:08 AM

Andrew, yes I'm aware of the forum, and I'll certainly try it again if it looks like I do have to go back to Finale.

Codger - yes, that all sounds familiar. I did all they asked of me, and it's still broken. I'm reluctant to throw good money after bad with another PrintMusic upgrade (if that's what's required - my feeling would be that the fix should really be free) - I'd rather upgrade Pro Tools which I can use for improved audio recording too.

Nigel - good albums those. And some of the best things I'd done recently have been 'as-live.' Just goes to show.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:04 AM

Tootler mentioned Noteworthy, above.

I use Noteworthy Composer to work up music for church and to play with friends, but it doesn't have a way to save to pdf.

A friend of mine has Finale, and her manuscripts are crisper and more professional-looking, somehow.

So, although I am a fan of Noteworthy, I don't think it would serve the needs of a serious composer whose work will be going commercial.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:01 PM

No need to worry about PDF. A Mac always offers the option to print to PDF any time you're printing from any program. It's built into OS X. And there are many free PDF print enhancements for WinTel systems. You can make a PDF from any program that prints these days.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: s&r
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:05 PM

Thanks for that Mark - I use a Mac and hadn't spotted that

Stu


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:32 PM

Mark - how so?

I can do grabs I know, but not, I don't think, PDFs (only with Acrobat and I can't get out of PrintMusic to that.

Is this a Leopard Thing?

(Cos "I'm A Tiger, I'm a Ti Ger..." ©Lulu)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 04:19 PM

Tom,

Go to print. There's a PDF sign down the bottom on the left.

Macs have been able to save as a PDF since 10.3 I think.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:48 PM

Goodness me, so there is. I guess they put it there just for PrintMusic and their strange approach to product delivery (not).

I've had a response.

They say "The good news is that we have re-written large parts of PrintMusic so that the program is compatible with Mac-Intel processors. You can purchase the upgrade from www.finalemusic.com to version 2011"

In other words implying it was never sold as working on Intel Macs, which it most certainly was or I'd not have bought it. Obviously.

Furthermore their Support case web page shows a big bunch of customer posts, then a bunch of responses, then a bunch of customer posts etc. You can't begin to read the actual correspondence in the order that it happened. Not helpful when trying to trace through an old and recurring problem.

And ALL the posts - even the ones from 06 (I've now established I got it in April 06), are now dated 03/22/2007.

Honestly. Some companies really don't deserve to be in business.

Sibelius vs Finale?

My mind is made up.

Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius!

There. Feel better now.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:54 PM

Tom,

Remember that Print Music is the cheap version of "Finale" and does not do everything that Finale can do.
I don't think Sibelius do a scaled down version.
All I know is that from my experience Finale [the full one] is great, and has worked on my intel Mac with no problems.
I corresponded with Finale at first, but the guys on the forum are much better!
So when you finally make up your mind...........!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nick
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:10 PM

RTFM


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM

Most software is written to work on PCs and simply "ported" to Macs; the bits that don't work entirely properly or naturally most vendors don't seem to worry about, and Mac testing is less than rigorous (as if any products are well-tested before release any more). So while products may be "Mac-compatible", they aren't really designed to work on Macs, more's the pity. When you go Mac, you only go back kicking and screaming.

Thus "rewriting to work on Macs" may simply mean that the innards were redesigned to be more fully cross-platform and better integrated with Mac interfaces. It may also have been a euphemistic way of saying "we fixed the registration change which Apple foist upon us without sufficient notice."

Given my experience with PrintMusic, I'm inclined to support your decision: if their mid-range offering--and probably their top-end offering as well--can't even print simple tunes as normally notated, they've seriously missed the boat. As a basic guideline, there shouldn't be anything you can do in Barfly that you can't also do in PrintMusic, regardless of the many things PrintMusic can do that Barfly can't. But I have no experience with Sibelius, and won't shell out $500 for a product I can't get detailed information on prior to purchase--I've been burned too many times. MakeMusic at least lets you download the complete user guides for their products.

So first I'd advise going to Sibelius music repositories, downloading their free reader and sampling scores of similar music to ensure they have ALL the features you need. Of course, this will only tell you definitively about their top-end offering, but if I recall, they don't have a mid-range product or I'd have transitioned when I ran into the Finale registration fiasco. (Anyway, "mid-range" these days tends to mean "bait and switch", with key features even the basic user needs unsupported.) It also won't tell you how easy or difficult the program is to use. Wonder if Consumer Reports has ever done comparison studies...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM

Artful Codger,

Are you saying that you couldn't get your "Print Music" to print?

Ask on the forum.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:20 PM

Insiders familiar with what goes on at Finale HQ told me they saw Finale demonstrated on Steve Jobs' NeXT computer back in 1992. But for some reason, they shelved it.

The NeXT operating system (NeXTSTEP) was actually a precursor of today's OS X. It was based on BSD 4.3 Unix and used PostScript for everything, including manipulating the display. So most of the Mac specific code for Finale has been around for a long time.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM

Well Nick, when I did RTFM it told me what I wanted to hear, so I bought it.

Unfortunately it does not do what it says in the FM. So Ring it again is not likely to help.

PrintMusic prints if your printer supports their fonts. If it doesn't you just get lots of little squares where the notes should be. Other similar (cheap) software offers a spooled graphic option, allowing you to export jpegs or tiffs, and I think that's a basic requirement, really.

Granted that keeping up to date with OSs can be a problem, but Make Music seem to have opted for a convoluted anti-piracy system which traps even honest injuns in its web - plus their support system is, frankly, unhelpful and slightly rude.

The forum would probably provide a work around, but this is a Trades Descriptions matter, so I'm dealing with the people who took me money.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 06:57 AM

I could be wrong but I think Sibelius is the only one that will output vector graphics (ie you could then edit your scores in a graphic-design program like Adobe Illustrator). Maybe one of the Finales does this too, but I'm not sure.

If that's true, Sibelius would rule the roost for me.

I'm using tabledit on a mac and it's doing my head in. It's a waste of money if you're a Mac user. It won't do triplets. So I'm stuffed.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:06 AM

I'm not looking to edit the scores in Illustrator or anything clever, just print them onto paper so that they look like they did on the screen.

Printmusic can't do that talking to my normal Epson. Which makes it, frankly, completely useless.

It also won't let you output in a graphic format, so that you can, say, import the score into a word document, or upload it to your website.

Ignoring the faff of making a PDF (which I didn't know about) the only solution is to make a grabbed image, which is pretty poor, really.

I'd ask for my money back if they'd listen to me.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:19 AM

Matt, You might want to try TuxGuitar. It's free, it's good, it handles triplets nicely, and it imports and exports to other file types including GuitarPro, MusicXML, LilyPond and TablEdit (input only). I think TablEdit will import at least some of those. TuxGuitar printed output isn't the greatest but its ability to export LilyPond and MusicXML means it's easy to use other tools for printing. But the TuxGuitar user interface is very nice.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: pavane
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:09 PM

Artful Codger "If well tested". As a system tester, I can say that to management, testing is an afterthought, and if deadlines are to be met, it is always testing that suffers. Testers are rarely allowed to do a proper job, because it is too expensive. And management usually cut short testing before it is properly signed off. The exceptions are rare.

Clearly, testing code properly takes as much effort as writing it, but is usually seen as an overhead. And a cause of delay.

There was an old Dilbert cartoon "It's your fault the system is late, you found too many bugs"


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: pavane
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:11 PM

My own software HARMONY can do a reasonable job of printing simple scores, but is certainly not in the same league as Sibelius and Finale, as there is not a team working full time on it, just me in the evenings!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 01:41 AM

@ andrew: No, I can print scores fine. I just can't construct the proper notation. See previous messages.

@ pavane: As a developer, I know all about testing and you're right. Testing always gets short-shrifted and management's focus on automation limits what actually gets tested. Reliance on automated tests also allows bugs to pass undetected when the tests improperly pass a faulty condition (as not infrequently happens after a software or data revision). There is no substitute for an experienced developer, tester or user banging on the software directly.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:21 AM

Artful Codger,

It's something to do with the fonts.

These were from a quick search

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=304588

http://www.finalemusic.com/store/search.aspx?p=2


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:32 AM

And this one too.

Not sure if you're mac or not.

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=104389


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:16 AM

That problem with fonts relates to Snow Leopard - but the font handling has always been clumsy.

This from Make Music "It seems as if your printer does not have the memory to handle the multiple fonts, especially the PostScript fonts."

Fair enough, so - I suggested a number of times - as this is a 'cut down' for people who are not wanting to invest in a lot of expensive kit to print out their scores, why not offer a spooled graphic option, to jpeg or tiff or BMP? If Muscescore and the like can do it, surely a mid range package like PrintMusic should?

Silence.

And this bit of nonsense: "The only other factor that I can think of that can affect this registration is the addition or removal of hardware on a frequent basis (such as external storage devices or a wireless network card). Do you have anything like that on your computer?"

This is like Ford telling you that the reason the car won't start is that you have allowed a number of different people to use the rear seats!

Today I've had this from them: "I wish we had a solution for your version of PrintMusic, but when the Mac-Intel came out, we made sure our website and knowledge base pointed out that the current programs were not compatible*. We released a patch for Finale 2006, but not PrintMusic at the time (version 2007 of PrintMusic was the first compatible with Mac-Intel processors)."

*That is completely untrue. I'd only recently got the Intel and knowing there were issues with some softwares, was checking and double-checking every purchase I made.

The man James L there has obviously not read this from previous correspondence on 2006: ""Is your machine a new 'Intel' Mac? If you are running a new 'Intel'
chipset Mac, it is necessary to download and install PrintMusic
update 2006a from our website in order to run PrintMusic on these new
machines. PrintMusic will not allow you to register without this
update installed. In order to do this, go to FinaleMusic.com. Under
the 'Support Menu', choose 'Downloads', and use the pull-down menus
to choose the appropriate platforms and version. Then, select
'Update' from the pull-down menu that denotes 'Type'. This search
will return the update '2006a' for OS x. Download, and run this
update. You should have no trouble registering and using PrintMusic
after this update is performed."

Obviously I did that and still have the 6a in my dock. It did register and work.

For a short while.

Lenny Bruce


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM

Hi, Tom. I don't know anything about Macs, but I am sympathetic to your plight, since I edit and compose music myself (with a PC).

I suggest you get out of this thread, whose title is 'Sibelius vs Finale' and start a new thread tailored to reach Mac users. Call it something like "Tech: Print music MS with a Mac?"

You may get some good advice from Mac users.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 01:15 PM

Thanks Leenia - but I'm not here to get help any more. I now know what the problem is - Finale are a very poor company (dodgy programming, poor market fit and almost criminal customer service). I'm no longer interested in using their products, but I AM interested in warning others currently choosing between Sibelius and Finale to be very wary indeed of the latter (I've heard only praise for the former).

A company that can get things this badly wrong re the Intel Mac (and the many other non-mac specific issues mentioned above) is really not to be trusted - even on PC.

My chosen option has been to start with PTLE 8 (which has a good, if basic score function that swaps with step edit mode), then output at a late stage to some other programme possibly Musescore for lyrics etc.

I found out today (at a demo by top producer Phil Snell) that PTLE has a dedicated 'Export to Sibelius Function."

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:03 PM

I use Finale on a Mac all the time. For me it's a great music notation program. Any questions have been answered promptly on the forum by some very helpful folks, who know heaps about music notation, not just how to work Finale. I look at the forum most days to pick up info.

Andrew


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM

I'm sure that's the case, Andrew, and no doubt some of those people are Finale employees, but bugs in the registration process involving serial numbers and passwords can only be dealt with by the company itself.

Technical problems are forgivable, dishonesty less so.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM

@ andrew: Again, I'm not the one having the print problems. And the notational difficulties I encounter have nothing to do with fonts--I'm still running 10.5 (Leopard) rather than 10.6 (Snow Leopard). They have to do with inadequate design for common cases.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 02:05 PM

Tootler and others interested in WINE.

WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulater) is a set of APIs that support running Windows apps under MAC OS X. This is much better in many respects than actually loading Windows onto your Mac as a dual boot OS.

Until recently, installing WINE required detailed familiarity with Unix, Mac OS X, MacPorts, etc. Now there is a simple and effective way to get WINE onto your Mac.

Check out the YouTube video How To Install Wine On Mac OS X (The Easy Way). The link to the software Web site (also included on the YouTube page) is http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/.

I've used this with great success. If I download a .exe file, I can just double-click it and it installs in WINE. Other operations are as easy. WINE doesn't seem to support USB yet but it's very functional.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:35 AM

I've been working with Musescore for a while now and it was all going well - good little program and good support via the online forum

BUT

Just hit an insurmountable snag.

It can only import dotted notes as ties - which makes lyric input a complete non-starter. As this is the only reason I'm using it (ProTools has no lyric input function) I'm having to look elsewhere.

Has anyone ever tried this one?

MidiIllustrator

(eek - too many i's, Is and l's in a row)

Or have any other suggestions?

Thanks

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:18 AM

One thing that must be stressed. Digital information in notational form when played back, regardless of how sophisticated it is technically, doesn't replace the sound generated by an actual musical instrument.

You can use the "electronics" as an instrument in combination with real musical instruments however the caveat is, how do you make music with it that doesn't sound robotic?

As to the controversy, I have found Sibelius to be quite logical and can generate a lead sheet quickly. I miss the playback features of Encore but the graphics, the presentational clarity, the versatility to adapt to Logic Pro, the organic using which becomes a part of you, and the templates for scoring work for me over the clunky having to do numerous steps of Finale.

A lot of course, depends on the application but for a composer, the most important thing is to get the ideas in notation down quickly and as accurately as what you hear in your head. In this, Sibelius, for me, wins every time.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:35 AM

Indeed - but Sibelius is NOT cheap, and it would also be a steamhammer to crack a peanut. Having been a non-earning student etc. for 18 months I'm finding it hard to justify the cost.

I only need something for this one job, and even that is only to assist the players a little bit. They will mainly be working from audio recordings, and making their own adaptations as they see fit (because this is folk music).

I normally avoid writing music down as a matter of principle.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM

I'm a Linux not a Mac user, but I've been using Wine to run Windows programs for some time now. Wine is definitely better than a dual boot option as the programs run directly in the OS. I would guess this is also true of the Mac.

Wine was originally developed for Linux, but the Wine website sets out all the options for installing on a Mac here.

Noteworthy runs fine in Wine, though I have had problems with the print preview causing a program crash in the past. The problem largely seems to have been resolved in recent versions of Wine. I have been using Noteworthy for over 10 years now (it has been around for 16 years) and I find it meets all my needs. I was attracted to it in the first place because I found it very easy to learn and was able to produce results very quickly. It does have a slightly quirky interface which some do not like but it never gave me any problems and I quickly got used to it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale vs. Musescore
From: GUEST,Slim_Chestnut
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:28 AM

Hi tom,

Musescore is an open source project and you can contribute your ideas and suggestions and bugs for its improvement!

If it will only import dotted values as tied notes then help the code writers fix it by communicating with them!

Just a suggestion.
Slim

Singer/Songwriter with Guitar....of course.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:31 AM

Tootler - thanks but I need to have open a number of Mac-specific programs at the same time as the Score software, so that's not an option.

Slim - Yes, thanks I knew that and have been in discussion with them. This issue's been kicked around for a while, but no-one's found a work-around yet, or looks likely to - soon enough for me anyway.

I'm trying to find something else that won't break the bank and imports midi files on a Mac.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:52 AM

Tom, if you just want a one off, why don't you just find someone who will do it for you.
Even if you buy a program, it can take quite a while to learn how to use it.
Finale Notepad [USA $10]imports midis.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:58 AM

This is not something I can delegate - it's an interactive/virtuous cycle around research, lyric writing/adapting, recording, midi recording, score editing, printing etc.

See above for my opinion of Finale.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 07:36 AM

Oh and in case that sounds even more pompous than I usually am, when I say 'one off,' I don't mean just one song - this is a two hour folk opera/trad musical.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM

Tom,

The whole point of Wine is that you are effectively running your Windows program within your Mac OS, so you can have your Mac specific programs open at the same time. That's its great advantage over dual boot or virtual box. No need to switch OS. In effect, Wine intercepts the Windows calls and implements them within Mac OS or, in my case, Linux. As I write this (Firefox in Linux), I have Noteworthy open and playing back a file through the midi in Linux.

It can only import dotted notes as ties

Are you referring to importing from midi? I find similar things with Noteworthy. A dotted crotchet will be imported as a crotchet tied to a quaver if the note "crosses" the beat. It's a nuisance, but is fairly easily dealt with by deleting the quaver and editing the crotchet to delete the tie and add the dot - assuming that's the problem you are having.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM

Not the feature under discussion, but a few days back I checked MuseScore's web site. There is now a plug-in that will import ABC files. It doesn't do it perfectly. I tried it out with an ABC which had repeat bars. The score produced played all of the tune, but did it as a set of notes written, then written again, rather than with "repeat Section" in standard notation.
Quack!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:07 AM

Season's Greetings to everyone who has & is still contributing to this thread. I wish you all a very Happy New Year. May all your plans come to fruition...may the technology remain benign & fully functional & Tom, please let us know when & where the premiere of your Folk Opera will be.
            Kind Regards to All,
                                              Nigel.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:36 AM

Well, if all goes to plan, Hamptonne Country Life Museumn, South Courtyard, Jersey (Old not New) Aug 26-31

Happy Christmas


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