BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK

Subject: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

We're now allowing animals to be killed in the halal way in the UK. I think this is very, very wrong. The RSPCA allow this to happen because they have now insisted all animals killed in this way are 'stunned' first.

This is not good enough! HOW dare we allow this to happen in a country that is renowned worldwide for its Animal Welfare! I think the RSPCA have lost the plot on this one, I really do..and I wrote to them this afternoon to tell them so...

Also, many food outlets are now serving halal meat without their customers being aware. Kentucky Fried Chicken, all Whitbread restaurants, including Beefeater and Costa Coffee (in their chicken sandwiches)...and TESCO and ASDA now have halal meat counters in some of their stores.

This article explains all about it, and the vet always says how this barbaric practice has been outlawed in other countries.

It should be outlawed in the UK as well.

A Vet speaks out about this

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

Apologies...I forgot the 'BS' bit. Could this be moved down, please. Thanks

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:21 PM

Halal meat has been on sale in the UK for long time, so it's not exactly news.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:22 PM

There are shops serving kosher meat, too.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

Tell me you are vegan, Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM

Cutting an animal's throat in the name of religion is moronic. You don't have to be a vegan to understand that.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM

Pretty much all meat in NZ is Halal slaughtered, the departure from that tradition being that the animals are electrically stunned first. Much to the objections of the Muslim traditionalists, I might add. We have a large export market in meat, much to the Middle East countries.

I can't see any objection personally, all slaughter is barbaric in nature, the best that can be achieved is to minimise terror and suffering. The traditional Halal way seems to be that the animal is faced towards Mecca, its throat is cut and it bleeds to death while the slaughterman prays.

Pigs, of course, are not Kosher or Halal, and they slide squealing down a metal shute and are electrocuted automatically.
Not a sight you ever forget.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

Taken from here...


"What is the RSPCA doing about religious slaughter?

We recognise that religious beliefs and practices should be respected. We also believe that it is important to ensure that animals are slaughtered under the most humane conditions possible.

Scientific research has clearly shown that slaughter of an animal without stunning can cause unnecessary suffering, and so we are opposed to the slaughter of any animal without first making it insensible to pain and distress.

We continue to press for changes in the law that would improve the welfare of all animals at the time of slaughter. Until this occurs, we propose the following.


•The Jewish and Muslim communities in the UK should review their slaughter practices.

In New Zealand, for example, all animals slaughtered by the Halal method are stunned before slaughter, and all animals slaughtered by the Kosher method are stunned shortly after the cut is made in the animal's neck. Similar progress has already been made in some abattoirs in the UK and this should be extended to cover all animals slaughtered by religious methods.

•All meat produced from animals that have not been stunned before slaughter should be clearly labelled, so that consumers can choose whether or not to eat / buy it.

If you share our concerns about animal welfare at slaughter, you may be interested to know more about how you can help."

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:15 PM

"We recognise that religious beliefs and practices should be respected."

I refuse to recognise that barbaric rituals of any description should EVER be respected!


Taken from here:

"How can you help?

We believe that UK and EU laws must be improved and properly enforced to ensure that all farmed animals have a quiet, painless and humane end to their lives. You can help this cause in the following ways:

Put pen to paper...

..If you, like the RSPCA, are concerned about the welfare of animals at slaughter/killing, please write to your local MP and to:

The Rt. Hon. Caroline Spelman MP
Secretary of State for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Department of Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Nobel House
17 Smith Square
LONDON SW1P 3JR.

Please write concisely in your own words, and mention some of the key animal welfare issues at slaughter/killing and some of the ways in which improvements could be made.

Ask your retailer...

...about their policies regarding animal welfare at slaughter/killing and the sale and labelling of meat from animals that were not pre-stunned before slaughter.

If you are concerned about farm animal welfare, you might be interested to learn about some more farm animal welfare issues."

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM

Sorry, Gary, that has NOTHING to do with the 'argument'. If you eat meat, you are complicit in it's slaughter. Period.

If Lizzie wants to whine about 'inhumane methods' show me one that IS. It sure isn't going to be 'better' than halal or kosher slaughter.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:25 PM

Sorcha... cruelty is cruelty. As far as educating you... I shant be bothered. Look it up yourself.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM

Already have, and frankly, halal/kosher killing is among the MORE humane practises. Period. I'm outta here. Can't win with closed minds.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:32 PM

Typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM

Was it John Seymour who said "If you're not prepared to kill it yourself, you shouldn't eat it?"

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 08:27 PM

Well,you could always wait for the animals to die of old age,although they'd probably be a bit tough and stringy by then,and obviously there would be no veal---or lamb--or sucking-pig--calves'liver---ducklings-----etc.
          The reason behind the Halal / Kosher methods,as I understand it,is that the blood will all be pumped out of the creature's body before it actually passes away,so to speak. From that point of view,it is a "good thing" ,otherwise you'd have to hang it up and let the blood slowly seep out,so why not get the animal's own heart to pump away 'til it's empty ?? Providing,of course,that the creature is not over-stressed or terrified by all this.
      The Jews and Muslims seem to have been doing their own thing for millenia when it comes to animal slaughter,so why all the fuss all of a sudden ?? I believe that the Jews at Masada even used similar methods on each rather than surrender to the Romans ; now there's dedication for you .
Anyway,from a cow's or sheep's point of view,it must be preferable to having a great metal bolt fired into your brain,leaving your incontinent body twitching and thrashing around in pools of your own urine & faeces (assuming that's still the abbatoir way in the UK ??).By comparison,the Halal method seems quite gentle.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 08:31 PM

I have worked in a state-of-the-art slaughterhouse (one of the largest in the world), working to the standards set by the US, UK and New Zealand simultaneously. That is, hygiene was awesomely thorough, but there was no attempt to meet kosher or halal standards. I have also watched a cow being slaughtered in the traditional way at a village festival in north-east Turkey, with nothing more high-tech than a rope and a sharp knife.

In the slaughterhouse we got through about half a million sheep while I was there. Each one of them was driven up a ramp with prods into the killing area at the end of the factory, which was maybe fifty feet wide, twenty feet high, thirty feet long, and by lunchtime was covered inches thick in congealed blood almost to the ceiling. Killing was done in an elevated pen, at the start of the conveyor chain, about 12 feet above floor level. The last sight each sheep saw was six lines of twitching corpses hanging on hooks through their rear ankles moving away towards the processing areas. (They were skinned first, then the arsehole was removed, then they started the rest of the gutting. My main job was emptying the arsehole buckets and picking up stray guts that fell off the conveyor). At that point, even if your brain is the size of a golfball you probably have a pretty good idea what's about to happen to you. Which was an electric shock to the head, enough to disorient and incapacitate the sheep (the same as ECT or an epileptic seizure) and then a series of knife cuts that slashed through the arteries of the neck and sometimes the spinal cord. The slaughtermen were highly skilled, efficient, and in no way cruel, but with that volume of animals to process (about one every ten seconds) there were regular accidents, like a half-electrocuted sheep falling off the killing pen to smash into the floor and wallow around in the pool of blood before they could get it back.

The calf in Turkey knew exactly nothing until the blood supply to its brain failed. Consciousness is lost within 20 seconds when that occurs. Kosher and halal requirements (they are the same apart from the prayers) prescribe that the animal should not know what's going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 09:52 PM

I was a bit surprised by this post as, as one person commented,
"Halal meat has been on sale in the UK for long time, so it's not exactly news."

So why post this now when there have been various 'campaigns' and controversies for several years?

It seems there is a new 'shock horror campaign' by the Mail which announced on Sunday

" hundreds of pubs and restaurants in Britain, as well as top racecourses, schools and hospitals, now only serve chicken that has been ritually slaughtered according to Sharia Law."

As Paul Burke pointed out
"There are shops serving kosher meat, too."
In fact the original article link reports
"a concession has been made allowing slaughter of animals in the traditional way, whether Halal or Kosher"

Describing Kosher slaughter in "ETHICAL CONUNDRUMS"

" I can't speak for Halal slaughter, but I do know about Kosher slaughter of animals. The "Shochet" - slaughterer - uses a special knife which has to be incredibly sharp and completely smooth (any nicks in the blade might tear the animal's flesh on the way down and cause pain). The knife should be able to cut smoothly and cleanly through the neck. The cut is made in a specific place in the neck, and although death isn't instantaneous (NO METHOD OF SLAUGHTER IS), the animal loses consciousness immediately due to the sudden drop of blood pressure in the head. Complete death results shortly after.
As a comparison, let's look at some other methods of slaughter which are used. The "Captive Bolt Gun". Imagine a normal gun, but the bullet has a string attached to it so it flies out of the barrel, but can be reset and re-loaded again leaving nothing behind. Now take an animal, press this up against its skull and fire. Bolt goes into skull and pulled out again. Requires 4-5 shots normally to cause complete death, during which animal is in agony

And…. according to the OP's link
"some studies in the past claiming to show that when it's well done, there's minimal pain felt"

So let's spell this out…..

This is not 'news' in any normal use of the word

Islamophobia and Anti-Muslim Hate Crime: a London Case Study reveals

"how perpetrators of hate-crimes against Muslims are invariably motivated by a negative view of Muslims acquired from mainstream or extremist nationalist media reports or commentaries."

(Using "empirical evidence that demonstrates tangible links between Islamophobia or anti-Muslim bigotry in both
(i) mainstream political and media discourse and
(ii) extremist nationalist discourse and anti-Muslim hate crimes.")

The 'mainstream' constant negative 'drip drip' stories about Islam in publications like The Mail are even more disturbing as they subtly conceal the more obvious blatant racism of the publications of extremist groups.

'Facts' such as those stated by Gurney are irrelevant in such articles instead we are informed that the practice is banned altogether in New Zealand!

I have been to abattoirs in the UK and I can only agree there is no truly humane method of slaughter - if you eat meat and are not prepared to kill your own then be prepared to accept this.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:47 AM

The BBC reported it yesterday. The focus was on the fact that so many food outlets are now selling halal meat to their customers without those customers knowing about it. That is wrong, imo...and in the opinion of others also.

As ever, The Daily Mail is accused of stirring up racism, but this matter needed to be brought out into the open. And it is not racist to voice concerns over animals, surely.

I only believe in 'religious tolerance' up to a point. If *any* religion has things inside it which are fundamentally cruel, sick or plain wrong, then my tolerance ends, there and then...which is why I've been ranting and raging about the pope's visit recently.

This is nothing to do with racism. It is purely about right and wrong, imo.


I believe that Kentucky Fried Chicken (who'd eat that anyway?) came 'clean' about it recently, but other folks, so it seems, have stayed utterly silent.

What I find so strange is *why* many food outlets in the UK are now using halal meat in the first place. As far as I'm aware, kosher meat is not used in the main food chains in the same way,(I don't agree with those religious beliefs either.) so I guess that'd be the reason why the media did not pick up on the kosher side of things in the same way.

If folks eat meat then it is surely only right that as little suffering as possible takes place and I cannot comprehend that this form of killing is *more* kind and compassionate. Rather, it seems to me, thaat it's done because 'someone' wrote it down in a book at some point in time, and since that time the masses have lived their lives according to those words.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:42 AM

Considering the utterly inhumane way much of the meat available in our supermarkets is raised then worrying about Halal seems a little odd. Of course, the fact the Daily Mail is banging on about the fact it's a Muslim tradition is probably not a coincidence.

The day the Daily Mail starts a campaign regarding the inherent cruelness we westerners visit on millions of hapless, suffering chickens every day for cheap eggs I'd be more inclined to take it seriously.

"Rather, it seems to me, thaat it's done because 'someone' wrote it down in a book at some point in time, and since that time the masses have lived their lives according to those words."

No different to what happens in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM

There are a lot of things you can't comprehend.

The sheep die in exactly the same way in halal/kosher slaughter or as despatched in the abattoir I worked in - in both cases, by loss of blood from severed vessels in the neck. The only difference is that the abattoir was a far more terrifying place to be in the last hours of their lives. The animals were delivered to holding pens right next to the slaughter end of the plant. The smell of blood and guts was overpowering, accompanied by clattering and banging of machinery and the screams of livestock.

Halal and kosher rules forbid treating animals like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 05:14 AM

Here is an example from a different area which shows exactly how little the Mail cares about getting basic facts right:

The London Earthquake Panic

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 06:33 AM

I am in agreement with Sugarfoot Jack that the treatment of intensively farmed animals throughout their whole life is something worthy of a shock horror article

But wait! -

On 15 July 2007 The Mail reported that
'Battery hens 'as happy as birds that can roam outside'

Factory farming means that large numbers of animals, typically cows, pigs, turkeys, or chickens are held, often indoors, typically at high densities the aim of which is to produce as much meat, eggs, or milk at the lowest possible cost.
Food is supplied in situ, and a wide variety of artificial methods are employed to maintain animal health and improve production, such as the use of antimicrobial agents, vitamin supplements, and growth hormones.
Physical restraints and or cages are used to control movement or actions regarded as "undesirable"

For egg production, battery farms consist of huge, windowless sheds housing thousands of hens who are crammed four or five at a time into small wire cages stacked on top of each other in rows.
The hens are put in to the cages at around 18 weeks old and will not come out again until they go for slaughter (around 72 weeks of age).

Each hen has 450cm² of space - the equivalent of an A4 sheet of paper.
The average wing span of a hen is 76cm

Most intensive egg farms are fully automated - everything from the lighting to the feeding, watering and egg collection is controlled automatically. The cage floors slope forward so that eggs roll on to a conveyor belt and are taken away to be boxed. In order to promote egg-laying, the sheds are artificially lit for approximately 17 hours each day, with the lights coming on at around 3am.

Unable to perform their natural behaviours, the bodies of battery hens degenerate through lack of exercise.
Unable to scratch at the ground, their claws overgrow and may curl round the wire mesh of the cage.

The decaying corpses of dead birds are not always removed immediately The top and bottom rows of cages, potentially housing thousands of birds, are particularly difficult to view simply because they are not at eye level
Battery farms being very automated are frequently staffed by only a few people. If enough staff were employed to enable each cage to be inspected each properly, the battery system would no longer be financially-viable.

"Only the least-cost producer survives in agriculture"
CEO of the second-largest pig producer in the U.S.

(Information on egg production from The Vegan Society and
Farm Animal Welfare Network)

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:22 AM

" As far as I'm aware, kosher meat is not used in the main food chains in the same way,(I don't agree with those religious beliefs either) so I guess that'd be the reason why the media did not pick up on the kosher side of things in the same way."

Really?

- A 1985 study,(Farm Animal Welfare Council Report on The Welfare of Lifestock When slaughtered by Religious Methods HMSO) showed that only one-third of meat produced by Jewish kosher slaughterhouses was consumed by Jews.

'A high proportion of Shecita meat is therefore distributed to the open market
Proposals for labelling requirements have tentatively appeared in EC documents, but have always been fiercely resisted'
ibid

Shechita UK, the lobby organisation which defends religious slaughter, campaigned against the proposals on the grounds that change in European law on labelling food would mean the "end of shechitah".
It is maintained that the mandatory labelling amendment would have the unintended consequence of making shechitah economically unviable, presumably because the market for the parts unacceptable for Kosher consumption would be less valuable.

Nevertheless earlier this year, the European Parliament has approved proposals to introduce mandatory labelling of ritually slaughtered meat; an amendment covering labelling of ritually slaughtered meat was adopted with 326 votes in favour, 270 against and 68 abstentions

The proposals will now move to the Council of Ministers for ratification, but this is likely to take around a year.
Member states would be given several years to implement such a change.

If ratified the proposals for labelling would still not extend to food served in restaurants and canteens.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:41 AM

There are much bigger issues here than focussing on one method of slaughter, and to concentrate on this is simply a red herring. You either agree with the killing of animals for food or you don't.

Unless you completely reject the use of any animal product or by-product in your life, you are complicit in animal slaughter. I would even include in this the eating of vegetables produced using animal manure – which, of course, organic vegetable growing relies heavily upon. If you reject the use of animal products, you also have to consider what the countryside would be like without livestock – bearing in mind that much of the British landscape has evolved to accommodate livestock production.

For many years I have been a member of the Rare Breeds Survival Trust, which seeks to encourage the breeding of many wonderful species of livestock that are under threat. This recognises that few people are going to keep endangered farm animals as pets and, therefore, to save a breed it has to be commercially viable – which means that, at some stage, it has to be slaughtered for consumption.

Personally, I try to eat as much locally-produced food as possible but one of the problems has been the closure of so many small local slaughter houses. Here the animals were less stressed from being transported long distances, less aware of what was happening, and despatched in a faster, more humane way. Ironically, it's the enforcement of more stringent welfare regulations that has caused the closures.

So, before you decide whether one method of slaughter is more humane than another – you have a far more fundamental decision to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:53 AM

As Show of Hands put it so succinctly in Country Life:

Out to graze they look so sweet
We hate the blood, we want the meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 08:10 AM

I would assume too that you would have to do some research before going out to eat if you feel very strongly about it. Some people might not realise the differences in Asian cooking until actually in the establishment. For instance I went for a meal with some work colleagues living here in the UK from Bombay who were mostly vegetarian, not all, but they could make a suitable suggestion where to go. Not everyone is able to do that. Is it law for an establishment to say it serves only Halal meat or do you just have to assume it does and avoid it if you feel that strongly?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:18 AM

I would tend to agree with Sugarfoot and those posters who feel that Halal method of ritual slaughter is in fact more humane than Western style production lines. Leveller also echoes some of my own thoughts concerning locally produced meat especially the rare traditional regional breeds and the smaller abattoirs that serve local communities. However that said, I still think Lizzie is correct in arguing that we the consumer have the right to know how the meat we eat was reared and slaughtered, so that we are able to make an informed personal choice about what we buy. When the Daily Mail wades in any any subject however, a genuinely "informed" choice is not necessarily the thing that their hysterical exposes promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:31 PM

You're not even allowed to know which country meat comes from, let alone how it was slaughtered, or how it was treated when alive. If the seller doesn't make special claims about it, all they have to put on the packet is the last country in which a "significant process" was carried out. That could be just putting plastic wrapping on it. We are also likely to be deprived of the right to that it hasn't been pumped up with hormones, or genetically modified, all in the name of free trade.

As Leveller pointed out, if you use any animal product, eggs, milk, cheese, leather, wool, and so on, apart from naturally moulted wild wool perhaps, animals have to die. Not least because 50% of their offspring are male and therefore useless unless killed young. Agriculture would quickly become impossible if the surplus males were allowed to roam about, fighting for leadership and disrupting the herds, and selective breeding would be undone within a very few generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:03 PM

As I posted above 21 Sep 10 - 07:22 AM new regulations voted by the European Parliament in June could mean that animals slaughtered in compliance with either Islamic or Jewish regulations would receive distinct labelling from animals not killed through 'religious' slaughter.

Whilst Shechitah – animals killed according to Jewish law – are not pre-stunned, there IS variation within the Islamic community, with several abattoirs pre-stunning animals, albeit using a significantly lower voltage to that of non religious slaughter - (this is sometimes referred to as 'reversible' stunning as the animal could recover consciousness if not killed.)

The Halal Food Authority, who pre-stun animals before slaughter, supported the amendment but the Halal Monitoring Committee believes that proposed labels, which would read, "meat from slaughter without stunning", would help perpetrate incorrect notions about non-stunned meat.
The chairman of the company, Mawlana Hanif Dudhwala, argues, "Non-stunned slaughter of animals is not cruel when done properly and we believe this method produces the safest halal option and a better quality of meat."

The proposed measures can only be implemented if supported by all 27 EU Agricultural Ministers, later this year.

Meanwhile an article in The Jewish Chronicle warned that 'the Jewish community must organise to defend the practice'

Jacky Lipowicz, chair of the Licensed Kosher Meat Traders' Association, said that the community needed to speak out to protect religious freedom

The laws of kashrut can appear quite arbitrary to the outsider,

For example certain parts of kosher animals are non-kosher.
One such part is the sciatic nerve in the hindquarters, which is extremely difficult to remove.
Thus some of the choicest cuts of meat - like filet mignon and sirloin steak - are forbidden or 'trayf'
It is possible that if these high value cuts were to be labelled as 'religiously slaughtered' or non-stunned (and currently something like two thirds of such meat enters the mainstream market) the financial viability of kosher meat production could be in doubt


If you feel strongly about supporting the current European proposals I suggest lobbying your MEP would be a more productive course of action than harrasing the RSPCA but it wouldn't answer the OP's complaint that
'TESCO and ASDA now have halal meat counters in some of their stores'
Or apparently even satisfy the opinion that it is 'very, very wrong' and the RSPCA have 'lost the plot' by accepting 'reversible' stunning practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:26 AM

In the past I have bought Halal or Kosher meat by choice as it often seemed better quality. From all I have read I find myself feeling that the religious slaughter is no more and possibly less stressful to an animal. I like meat too much to be put off by thinking of the animals demise but would like to think that their lives have been spent well and know that happy animals taste better. Killing animals is never going to be pretty but eating them while they're alive isn't really an option!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:51 AM

When I visited England a few years ago, I spent several days at the home of IanC and his love family. One evening, we had an especially delicious lamb dinner. Halfway through the meal, I learned that the lamb had a name and had been a family pet.
I have a lot of respect and affection for that lamb, but I still have to say that she was delicious.

My point? Eating, as with most human actions, is a moral dilemma. It's never a good thing to kill a living thing - but yet it's something we have to do to survive. There's very little we can do that doesn't have some bad side effects. I think that means we have to weigh each decision carefully and realize that whatever we decide to do, somebody might get hurt. And we must have respect for the affected creatures, even if we must kill them to survive.

I suppose it might seem nicer to eat carrots rather than lamb, but even eating carrots is destroying another living being.

-Joe-

And I'm not convinced that halal or kosher slaughter is inherently worse or better than any other kind of slaughter. It's still slaughter, and it's something we humans have to do to survive - but we should do our best to make the slaughter humane.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:00 AM

A non-issue, and part and parcel of the anti-Muslim hysteria now sweeping the globe.

For shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

I don't know about the UK but in the local Shoppers Food Warehouse here in the US they sell Halal goatmeat from Australia, frozen in chunks in a plastic bag.

The frozen pork chitterlings are in the bin to the right and frozen calves liver occupies the front half of the bin.

A scant few mills of PVC packaging separates the clean from the unclean.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:18 AM

I have my own reservations about being a meat eater and I am not often pleased with myself that I like meat. Slaughter is always a concern.

But then think too of the millions of fish and crustacea that are cought each year, who all die without stunning at all, choking on fresh air, being smothered by the weight of all the others above them

What humane practice is afforded fish and such?

Eat meat, whatever the kind of meat, and something has suffered for it

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

There are two entirely separate issues here.

The first one is that of animal welfare. In the UK the law requires pre-stunning, and ritual slaughter on religious grounds is only permitted as an exception. Most people assume this is because pre-stunning is considered to be more humane - whether or not this is actually the case (and the debate seems unresolved on this), this is the widespread perception, reinforced by the views of organisations such as the RSPCA.

If I visit an Asian restaurant then I might expect it to serve halal meat, but that is something I can choose to take into consideration. What is upsetting people is the revelation that meat slaughtered in a way which they consider to be less humane is being served without their knowledge and in situations where they wouldn't necessarily expect it, simply because those organisations cannot be bothered to go to the effort of providing separate menus for Muslims.

I choose to eat meat. I would prefer that the animals have been reared in decent conditions and slaughtered in a humane way. If I go to an Asian restaurant I have to consider the possibility (even if it isn't announced) that they may use halal meat but I can decide for myself. If non-Muslim organisations are also serving it in circumstances where I wouldn't expect to find it, I cannot make that choice.

That is quite different from the other, less acceptable point of view, (which I suspect underlies the Daily Mail's message even if it isn't explicit) which is that this is another example of the feelings of the Muslim minority taking priority over those of the rest of us. It is deplorable that an issue of animal welfare should be used to whip up anti-Muslim feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:05 PM

another example of the feelings of the Muslim minority taking priority over those of the rest of us.

Oh, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM

Halal or not ? it´s just meat ? who cares , not me I just eat it .

The halal is used here as well so we can sell the meat to our friends
in Islam country´s .

the other way is used , for the meat that we send to USA and Europe
.

so " verði ykkur að góðu "

all the best skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:56 PM

This issue has a history.

It's not so many years that the only organizations campaigning against halal and kosher slaughter were parties of the Fascist right. Even the Daily Mail wouldn't jump on their bandwagon..

Now they do. So, it seems, does quite a bit of the media, including the "liberal" papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:57 AM

Greg F, to be clear, I was deploring that interpretation of the story. However it does seem to underlie the Daily Mail's reporting, if only by implication.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM

Meat is murder ... or it isn't.

You can't have your cake and eat it.


Lizzie either believes that we should be vegetarian or that its ok to kill animals.


The rest is anti moslem bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:32 AM

Howard, I was reacting to the Daily Mail's interpretation, not to your post.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

There is a theory that an animal that is more relaxed at point of death has more tender meat.

I started using a halal butcher when, as we often hold parties, BBQs etc, and many of our friends are Muslim, it became a good idea even when it is just my wife and I. I now use a halal butcher in the nearest large town if I happen to go there for any other reason. If it just normal meat purchases, I use a butcher in the nearby village. After all, supporting local trades is something we try to make a point of.

I must admit, halal meat, especially lamb, seems in many cases to need less cooking down if I make a curry, stew etc. This could lead to the mental leap that the animal was less tense at time of death, but having been taught the value of thorough testing, I don't have enough data to say this is exactly the case.

Interesting to read that the RSPCA reckon all meat is stunned before slitting. Interesting... A good friend of mine used to go to Nandos when in a city, as some (their website says which) of their places use only halal meat. (I have been with him to Liverpool Lime St, and that is, for instance.) He now has a worry as to whether he can go any more. Stunning and then slitting is not perceived by many as being true halal and he is true to his faith so is in a bit of a quandary. of course, me being irreligious, I can't understand and have problems even empathising, but I do see his problem.

It also shows that the stunning before slitting is only in the larger factory environment meat preparation places. The smaller Asian community butchers will not be stunning, as they feel it lowers the quality of the meat.

I am perhaps purposely missing the point of the thread. I am of the opinion that religion in general has a lot to answer for and in an ideal world, no religion would have influence over reality. However, to stop halal is a pipe dream. it just ain't going to happen. There are more mosque going Muslims than there are church going Christians in this country, (source - MORI) and stopping Halal stands about as much chance as swapping Xmas for Ramadan as the national main holiday.

Live and let live, and stop trying to alienate sections of the community. I don't have a problem with halal. Many Muslims I know, work with and count as friends have no problem with my liking for beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:36 AM

I'm looking forward to Argentine steak tomorrow evening - lots of it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:41 AM

Whilst I am aware that there are claims that the halal method is more humane than pre-stunning, I am not convinced, and neither it seems are animal welfare groups.

Jack Campin's comparison of a large commercial abattoir and a single animal being slaughtered in a Turkish village is hardly comparing like with like. To supply meat in the quantities suggested by these latest stories means commercial-scale slaughterhouses using halal methods. Regardless of the method of slaughter, the better abattoirs try to minimise stress to the animal, no only on welfare grounds but because it affects the quality of the product.

The law specifies a particular method of slaughter. I am prepared to accept, with some reluctance, a relaxation on religious grounds. However this practice seems to draw a coach and horses through the legislation, to the extent that I wonder whether it is in fact legal to use halal or kosher methods when the meat is not intended specifically for those markets. It is surely contrary to the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

Let's face it, these organisations are serving halal meat to everyone because it is cheaper for them to do this rather than make separate provision for Muslim customers. They've kept quiet about it because they knew it would be unacceptable to many of their other customers if they knew.

It does raise the question, if Muslims and Jews want special treatment to meet their religious requirements, should they be prepared to pay extra for halal or kosher meat?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM

if Muslims and Jews want special treatment to meet their religious requirements, should they be prepared to pay extra for halal or kosher meat?

They always have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:53 AM

"I'm looking forward to Argentine steak tomorrow evening - lots of it!!! "

I certainly wouldn't eat that shite, stuffed full of growth hormones - it's local, grass-fed British meat for me. During the autumn/winter months, we also tend to eat a lot of game. The advantages are that it's cheap (or often free), it's delicious, it's free-range, and it's the by-product of other activities and might otherwise go to waste (pheasant/grouse shoots, wood pigeon/rabbit control, roadkill and ferreting). Of course, I would never, ever resort to poaching, which is illegal (LOL).

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM

Note Lizzie - as usual, leveller doesn't know what he is talking about. Have you seen the quality of grazing in Argentina, and the amount of space. Don't even begin to think that you know any thing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:01 PM

"as usual, leveller doesn't know what he is talking about"

Why would I want to eat meat that's been imported from half-way round the world when I can eat the meat of lovely slowly raised Dexters from a farmer that I know just down the road, and that I know has been humanely slaughtered and properly matured? The taste is just incomparable, it supports the local enconomy, it dramatically reduces food miles - in fact, it's a no-brainer. Really Boko, you do talk complete bollocks.

Ah, sorry, forgot - you live in a concrete jungle where real food is unavailable.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM

Ah, apologies Boko, I've just realised what you meant - you're having a corned beef sandwich for your tea! Enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:37 PM

In our local butcher there's a sign telling customers the provenance of their beef and lamb; the farms are invariably only a few miles from the shop and you can drive past and see how they're getting on any time.

And he sells a full range of offal too, which I love.

Mmmmmm!