BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK

Subject: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

We're now allowing animals to be killed in the halal way in the UK. I think this is very, very wrong. The RSPCA allow this to happen because they have now insisted all animals killed in this way are 'stunned' first.

This is not good enough! HOW dare we allow this to happen in a country that is renowned worldwide for its Animal Welfare! I think the RSPCA have lost the plot on this one, I really do..and I wrote to them this afternoon to tell them so...

Also, many food outlets are now serving halal meat without their customers being aware. Kentucky Fried Chicken, all Whitbread restaurants, including Beefeater and Costa Coffee (in their chicken sandwiches)...and TESCO and ASDA now have halal meat counters in some of their stores.

This article explains all about it, and the vet always says how this barbaric practice has been outlawed in other countries.

It should be outlawed in the UK as well.

A Vet speaks out about this

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

Apologies...I forgot the 'BS' bit. Could this be moved down, please. Thanks

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:21 PM

Halal meat has been on sale in the UK for long time, so it's not exactly news.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:22 PM

There are shops serving kosher meat, too.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

Tell me you are vegan, Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM

Cutting an animal's throat in the name of religion is moronic. You don't have to be a vegan to understand that.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM

Pretty much all meat in NZ is Halal slaughtered, the departure from that tradition being that the animals are electrically stunned first. Much to the objections of the Muslim traditionalists, I might add. We have a large export market in meat, much to the Middle East countries.

I can't see any objection personally, all slaughter is barbaric in nature, the best that can be achieved is to minimise terror and suffering. The traditional Halal way seems to be that the animal is faced towards Mecca, its throat is cut and it bleeds to death while the slaughterman prays.

Pigs, of course, are not Kosher or Halal, and they slide squealing down a metal shute and are electrocuted automatically.
Not a sight you ever forget.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

Taken from here...


"What is the RSPCA doing about religious slaughter?

We recognise that religious beliefs and practices should be respected. We also believe that it is important to ensure that animals are slaughtered under the most humane conditions possible.

Scientific research has clearly shown that slaughter of an animal without stunning can cause unnecessary suffering, and so we are opposed to the slaughter of any animal without first making it insensible to pain and distress.

We continue to press for changes in the law that would improve the welfare of all animals at the time of slaughter. Until this occurs, we propose the following.


•The Jewish and Muslim communities in the UK should review their slaughter practices.

In New Zealand, for example, all animals slaughtered by the Halal method are stunned before slaughter, and all animals slaughtered by the Kosher method are stunned shortly after the cut is made in the animal's neck. Similar progress has already been made in some abattoirs in the UK and this should be extended to cover all animals slaughtered by religious methods.

•All meat produced from animals that have not been stunned before slaughter should be clearly labelled, so that consumers can choose whether or not to eat / buy it.

If you share our concerns about animal welfare at slaughter, you may be interested to know more about how you can help."

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:15 PM

"We recognise that religious beliefs and practices should be respected."

I refuse to recognise that barbaric rituals of any description should EVER be respected!


Taken from here:

"How can you help?

We believe that UK and EU laws must be improved and properly enforced to ensure that all farmed animals have a quiet, painless and humane end to their lives. You can help this cause in the following ways:

Put pen to paper...

..If you, like the RSPCA, are concerned about the welfare of animals at slaughter/killing, please write to your local MP and to:

The Rt. Hon. Caroline Spelman MP
Secretary of State for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Department of Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Nobel House
17 Smith Square
LONDON SW1P 3JR.

Please write concisely in your own words, and mention some of the key animal welfare issues at slaughter/killing and some of the ways in which improvements could be made.

Ask your retailer...

...about their policies regarding animal welfare at slaughter/killing and the sale and labelling of meat from animals that were not pre-stunned before slaughter.

If you are concerned about farm animal welfare, you might be interested to learn about some more farm animal welfare issues."

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM

Sorry, Gary, that has NOTHING to do with the 'argument'. If you eat meat, you are complicit in it's slaughter. Period.

If Lizzie wants to whine about 'inhumane methods' show me one that IS. It sure isn't going to be 'better' than halal or kosher slaughter.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:25 PM

Sorcha... cruelty is cruelty. As far as educating you... I shant be bothered. Look it up yourself.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM

Already have, and frankly, halal/kosher killing is among the MORE humane practises. Period. I'm outta here. Can't win with closed minds.

Subject: RE: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:32 PM

Typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM

Was it John Seymour who said "If you're not prepared to kill it yourself, you shouldn't eat it?"

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 08:27 PM

Well,you could always wait for the animals to die of old age,although they'd probably be a bit tough and stringy by then,and obviously there would be no veal---or lamb--or sucking-pig--calves'liver---ducklings-----etc.
          The reason behind the Halal / Kosher methods,as I understand it,is that the blood will all be pumped out of the creature's body before it actually passes away,so to speak. From that point of view,it is a "good thing" ,otherwise you'd have to hang it up and let the blood slowly seep out,so why not get the animal's own heart to pump away 'til it's empty ?? Providing,of course,that the creature is not over-stressed or terrified by all this.
      The Jews and Muslims seem to have been doing their own thing for millenia when it comes to animal slaughter,so why all the fuss all of a sudden ?? I believe that the Jews at Masada even used similar methods on each rather than surrender to the Romans ; now there's dedication for you .
Anyway,from a cow's or sheep's point of view,it must be preferable to having a great metal bolt fired into your brain,leaving your incontinent body twitching and thrashing around in pools of your own urine & faeces (assuming that's still the abbatoir way in the UK ??).By comparison,the Halal method seems quite gentle.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 08:31 PM

I have worked in a state-of-the-art slaughterhouse (one of the largest in the world), working to the standards set by the US, UK and New Zealand simultaneously. That is, hygiene was awesomely thorough, but there was no attempt to meet kosher or halal standards. I have also watched a cow being slaughtered in the traditional way at a village festival in north-east Turkey, with nothing more high-tech than a rope and a sharp knife.

In the slaughterhouse we got through about half a million sheep while I was there. Each one of them was driven up a ramp with prods into the killing area at the end of the factory, which was maybe fifty feet wide, twenty feet high, thirty feet long, and by lunchtime was covered inches thick in congealed blood almost to the ceiling. Killing was done in an elevated pen, at the start of the conveyor chain, about 12 feet above floor level. The last sight each sheep saw was six lines of twitching corpses hanging on hooks through their rear ankles moving away towards the processing areas. (They were skinned first, then the arsehole was removed, then they started the rest of the gutting. My main job was emptying the arsehole buckets and picking up stray guts that fell off the conveyor). At that point, even if your brain is the size of a golfball you probably have a pretty good idea what's about to happen to you. Which was an electric shock to the head, enough to disorient and incapacitate the sheep (the same as ECT or an epileptic seizure) and then a series of knife cuts that slashed through the arteries of the neck and sometimes the spinal cord. The slaughtermen were highly skilled, efficient, and in no way cruel, but with that volume of animals to process (about one every ten seconds) there were regular accidents, like a half-electrocuted sheep falling off the killing pen to smash into the floor and wallow around in the pool of blood before they could get it back.

The calf in Turkey knew exactly nothing until the blood supply to its brain failed. Consciousness is lost within 20 seconds when that occurs. Kosher and halal requirements (they are the same apart from the prayers) prescribe that the animal should not know what's going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 09:52 PM

I was a bit surprised by this post as, as one person commented,
"Halal meat has been on sale in the UK for long time, so it's not exactly news."

So why post this now when there have been various 'campaigns' and controversies for several years?

It seems there is a new 'shock horror campaign' by the Mail which announced on Sunday

" hundreds of pubs and restaurants in Britain, as well as top racecourses, schools and hospitals, now only serve chicken that has been ritually slaughtered according to Sharia Law."

As Paul Burke pointed out
"There are shops serving kosher meat, too."
In fact the original article link reports
"a concession has been made allowing slaughter of animals in the traditional way, whether Halal or Kosher"

Describing Kosher slaughter in "ETHICAL CONUNDRUMS"

" I can't speak for Halal slaughter, but I do know about Kosher slaughter of animals. The "Shochet" - slaughterer - uses a special knife which has to be incredibly sharp and completely smooth (any nicks in the blade might tear the animal's flesh on the way down and cause pain). The knife should be able to cut smoothly and cleanly through the neck. The cut is made in a specific place in the neck, and although death isn't instantaneous (NO METHOD OF SLAUGHTER IS), the animal loses consciousness immediately due to the sudden drop of blood pressure in the head. Complete death results shortly after.
As a comparison, let's look at some other methods of slaughter which are used. The "Captive Bolt Gun". Imagine a normal gun, but the bullet has a string attached to it so it flies out of the barrel, but can be reset and re-loaded again leaving nothing behind. Now take an animal, press this up against its skull and fire. Bolt goes into skull and pulled out again. Requires 4-5 shots normally to cause complete death, during which animal is in agony

And…. according to the OP's link
"some studies in the past claiming to show that when it's well done, there's minimal pain felt"

So let's spell this out…..

This is not 'news' in any normal use of the word

Islamophobia and Anti-Muslim Hate Crime: a London Case Study reveals

"how perpetrators of hate-crimes against Muslims are invariably motivated by a negative view of Muslims acquired from mainstream or extremist nationalist media reports or commentaries."

(Using "empirical evidence that demonstrates tangible links between Islamophobia or anti-Muslim bigotry in both
(i) mainstream political and media discourse and
(ii) extremist nationalist discourse and anti-Muslim hate crimes.")

The 'mainstream' constant negative 'drip drip' stories about Islam in publications like The Mail are even more disturbing as they subtly conceal the more obvious blatant racism of the publications of extremist groups.

'Facts' such as those stated by Gurney are irrelevant in such articles instead we are informed that the practice is banned altogether in New Zealand!

I have been to abattoirs in the UK and I can only agree there is no truly humane method of slaughter - if you eat meat and are not prepared to kill your own then be prepared to accept this.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:47 AM

The BBC reported it yesterday. The focus was on the fact that so many food outlets are now selling halal meat to their customers without those customers knowing about it. That is wrong, imo...and in the opinion of others also.

As ever, The Daily Mail is accused of stirring up racism, but this matter needed to be brought out into the open. And it is not racist to voice concerns over animals, surely.

I only believe in 'religious tolerance' up to a point. If *any* religion has things inside it which are fundamentally cruel, sick or plain wrong, then my tolerance ends, there and then...which is why I've been ranting and raging about the pope's visit recently.

This is nothing to do with racism. It is purely about right and wrong, imo.


I believe that Kentucky Fried Chicken (who'd eat that anyway?) came 'clean' about it recently, but other folks, so it seems, have stayed utterly silent.

What I find so strange is *why* many food outlets in the UK are now using halal meat in the first place. As far as I'm aware, kosher meat is not used in the main food chains in the same way,(I don't agree with those religious beliefs either.) so I guess that'd be the reason why the media did not pick up on the kosher side of things in the same way.

If folks eat meat then it is surely only right that as little suffering as possible takes place and I cannot comprehend that this form of killing is *more* kind and compassionate. Rather, it seems to me, thaat it's done because 'someone' wrote it down in a book at some point in time, and since that time the masses have lived their lives according to those words.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:42 AM

Considering the utterly inhumane way much of the meat available in our supermarkets is raised then worrying about Halal seems a little odd. Of course, the fact the Daily Mail is banging on about the fact it's a Muslim tradition is probably not a coincidence.

The day the Daily Mail starts a campaign regarding the inherent cruelness we westerners visit on millions of hapless, suffering chickens every day for cheap eggs I'd be more inclined to take it seriously.

"Rather, it seems to me, thaat it's done because 'someone' wrote it down in a book at some point in time, and since that time the masses have lived their lives according to those words."

No different to what happens in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM

There are a lot of things you can't comprehend.

The sheep die in exactly the same way in halal/kosher slaughter or as despatched in the abattoir I worked in - in both cases, by loss of blood from severed vessels in the neck. The only difference is that the abattoir was a far more terrifying place to be in the last hours of their lives. The animals were delivered to holding pens right next to the slaughter end of the plant. The smell of blood and guts was overpowering, accompanied by clattering and banging of machinery and the screams of livestock.

Halal and kosher rules forbid treating animals like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 05:14 AM

Here is an example from a different area which shows exactly how little the Mail cares about getting basic facts right:

The London Earthquake Panic

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 06:33 AM

I am in agreement with Sugarfoot Jack that the treatment of intensively farmed animals throughout their whole life is something worthy of a shock horror article

But wait! -

On 15 July 2007 The Mail reported that
'Battery hens 'as happy as birds that can roam outside'

Factory farming means that large numbers of animals, typically cows, pigs, turkeys, or chickens are held, often indoors, typically at high densities the aim of which is to produce as much meat, eggs, or milk at the lowest possible cost.
Food is supplied in situ, and a wide variety of artificial methods are employed to maintain animal health and improve production, such as the use of antimicrobial agents, vitamin supplements, and growth hormones.
Physical restraints and or cages are used to control movement or actions regarded as "undesirable"

For egg production, battery farms consist of huge, windowless sheds housing thousands of hens who are crammed four or five at a time into small wire cages stacked on top of each other in rows.
The hens are put in to the cages at around 18 weeks old and will not come out again until they go for slaughter (around 72 weeks of age).

Each hen has 450cm² of space - the equivalent of an A4 sheet of paper.
The average wing span of a hen is 76cm

Most intensive egg farms are fully automated - everything from the lighting to the feeding, watering and egg collection is controlled automatically. The cage floors slope forward so that eggs roll on to a conveyor belt and are taken away to be boxed. In order to promote egg-laying, the sheds are artificially lit for approximately 17 hours each day, with the lights coming on at around 3am.

Unable to perform their natural behaviours, the bodies of battery hens degenerate through lack of exercise.
Unable to scratch at the ground, their claws overgrow and may curl round the wire mesh of the cage.

The decaying corpses of dead birds are not always removed immediately The top and bottom rows of cages, potentially housing thousands of birds, are particularly difficult to view simply because they are not at eye level
Battery farms being very automated are frequently staffed by only a few people. If enough staff were employed to enable each cage to be inspected each properly, the battery system would no longer be financially-viable.

"Only the least-cost producer survives in agriculture"
CEO of the second-largest pig producer in the U.S.

(Information on egg production from The Vegan Society and
Farm Animal Welfare Network)

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:22 AM

" As far as I'm aware, kosher meat is not used in the main food chains in the same way,(I don't agree with those religious beliefs either) so I guess that'd be the reason why the media did not pick up on the kosher side of things in the same way."

Really?

- A 1985 study,(Farm Animal Welfare Council Report on The Welfare of Lifestock When slaughtered by Religious Methods HMSO) showed that only one-third of meat produced by Jewish kosher slaughterhouses was consumed by Jews.

'A high proportion of Shecita meat is therefore distributed to the open market
Proposals for labelling requirements have tentatively appeared in EC documents, but have always been fiercely resisted'
ibid

Shechita UK, the lobby organisation which defends religious slaughter, campaigned against the proposals on the grounds that change in European law on labelling food would mean the "end of shechitah".
It is maintained that the mandatory labelling amendment would have the unintended consequence of making shechitah economically unviable, presumably because the market for the parts unacceptable for Kosher consumption would be less valuable.

Nevertheless earlier this year, the European Parliament has approved proposals to introduce mandatory labelling of ritually slaughtered meat; an amendment covering labelling of ritually slaughtered meat was adopted with 326 votes in favour, 270 against and 68 abstentions

The proposals will now move to the Council of Ministers for ratification, but this is likely to take around a year.
Member states would be given several years to implement such a change.

If ratified the proposals for labelling would still not extend to food served in restaurants and canteens.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:41 AM

There are much bigger issues here than focussing on one method of slaughter, and to concentrate on this is simply a red herring. You either agree with the killing of animals for food or you don't.

Unless you completely reject the use of any animal product or by-product in your life, you are complicit in animal slaughter. I would even include in this the eating of vegetables produced using animal manure – which, of course, organic vegetable growing relies heavily upon. If you reject the use of animal products, you also have to consider what the countryside would be like without livestock – bearing in mind that much of the British landscape has evolved to accommodate livestock production.

For many years I have been a member of the Rare Breeds Survival Trust, which seeks to encourage the breeding of many wonderful species of livestock that are under threat. This recognises that few people are going to keep endangered farm animals as pets and, therefore, to save a breed it has to be commercially viable – which means that, at some stage, it has to be slaughtered for consumption.

Personally, I try to eat as much locally-produced food as possible but one of the problems has been the closure of so many small local slaughter houses. Here the animals were less stressed from being transported long distances, less aware of what was happening, and despatched in a faster, more humane way. Ironically, it's the enforcement of more stringent welfare regulations that has caused the closures.

So, before you decide whether one method of slaughter is more humane than another – you have a far more fundamental decision to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:53 AM

As Show of Hands put it so succinctly in Country Life:

Out to graze they look so sweet
We hate the blood, we want the meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 08:10 AM

I would assume too that you would have to do some research before going out to eat if you feel very strongly about it. Some people might not realise the differences in Asian cooking until actually in the establishment. For instance I went for a meal with some work colleagues living here in the UK from Bombay who were mostly vegetarian, not all, but they could make a suitable suggestion where to go. Not everyone is able to do that. Is it law for an establishment to say it serves only Halal meat or do you just have to assume it does and avoid it if you feel that strongly?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:18 AM

I would tend to agree with Sugarfoot and those posters who feel that Halal method of ritual slaughter is in fact more humane than Western style production lines. Leveller also echoes some of my own thoughts concerning locally produced meat especially the rare traditional regional breeds and the smaller abattoirs that serve local communities. However that said, I still think Lizzie is correct in arguing that we the consumer have the right to know how the meat we eat was reared and slaughtered, so that we are able to make an informed personal choice about what we buy. When the Daily Mail wades in any any subject however, a genuinely "informed" choice is not necessarily the thing that their hysterical exposes promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:31 PM

You're not even allowed to know which country meat comes from, let alone how it was slaughtered, or how it was treated when alive. If the seller doesn't make special claims about it, all they have to put on the packet is the last country in which a "significant process" was carried out. That could be just putting plastic wrapping on it. We are also likely to be deprived of the right to that it hasn't been pumped up with hormones, or genetically modified, all in the name of free trade.

As Leveller pointed out, if you use any animal product, eggs, milk, cheese, leather, wool, and so on, apart from naturally moulted wild wool perhaps, animals have to die. Not least because 50% of their offspring are male and therefore useless unless killed young. Agriculture would quickly become impossible if the surplus males were allowed to roam about, fighting for leadership and disrupting the herds, and selective breeding would be undone within a very few generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:03 PM

As I posted above 21 Sep 10 - 07:22 AM new regulations voted by the European Parliament in June could mean that animals slaughtered in compliance with either Islamic or Jewish regulations would receive distinct labelling from animals not killed through 'religious' slaughter.

Whilst Shechitah – animals killed according to Jewish law – are not pre-stunned, there IS variation within the Islamic community, with several abattoirs pre-stunning animals, albeit using a significantly lower voltage to that of non religious slaughter - (this is sometimes referred to as 'reversible' stunning as the animal could recover consciousness if not killed.)

The Halal Food Authority, who pre-stun animals before slaughter, supported the amendment but the Halal Monitoring Committee believes that proposed labels, which would read, "meat from slaughter without stunning", would help perpetrate incorrect notions about non-stunned meat.
The chairman of the company, Mawlana Hanif Dudhwala, argues, "Non-stunned slaughter of animals is not cruel when done properly and we believe this method produces the safest halal option and a better quality of meat."

The proposed measures can only be implemented if supported by all 27 EU Agricultural Ministers, later this year.

Meanwhile an article in The Jewish Chronicle warned that 'the Jewish community must organise to defend the practice'

Jacky Lipowicz, chair of the Licensed Kosher Meat Traders' Association, said that the community needed to speak out to protect religious freedom

The laws of kashrut can appear quite arbitrary to the outsider,

For example certain parts of kosher animals are non-kosher.
One such part is the sciatic nerve in the hindquarters, which is extremely difficult to remove.
Thus some of the choicest cuts of meat - like filet mignon and sirloin steak - are forbidden or 'trayf'
It is possible that if these high value cuts were to be labelled as 'religiously slaughtered' or non-stunned (and currently something like two thirds of such meat enters the mainstream market) the financial viability of kosher meat production could be in doubt


If you feel strongly about supporting the current European proposals I suggest lobbying your MEP would be a more productive course of action than harrasing the RSPCA but it wouldn't answer the OP's complaint that
'TESCO and ASDA now have halal meat counters in some of their stores'
Or apparently even satisfy the opinion that it is 'very, very wrong' and the RSPCA have 'lost the plot' by accepting 'reversible' stunning practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:26 AM

In the past I have bought Halal or Kosher meat by choice as it often seemed better quality. From all I have read I find myself feeling that the religious slaughter is no more and possibly less stressful to an animal. I like meat too much to be put off by thinking of the animals demise but would like to think that their lives have been spent well and know that happy animals taste better. Killing animals is never going to be pretty but eating them while they're alive isn't really an option!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:51 AM

When I visited England a few years ago, I spent several days at the home of IanC and his love family. One evening, we had an especially delicious lamb dinner. Halfway through the meal, I learned that the lamb had a name and had been a family pet.
I have a lot of respect and affection for that lamb, but I still have to say that she was delicious.

My point? Eating, as with most human actions, is a moral dilemma. It's never a good thing to kill a living thing - but yet it's something we have to do to survive. There's very little we can do that doesn't have some bad side effects. I think that means we have to weigh each decision carefully and realize that whatever we decide to do, somebody might get hurt. And we must have respect for the affected creatures, even if we must kill them to survive.

I suppose it might seem nicer to eat carrots rather than lamb, but even eating carrots is destroying another living being.

-Joe-

And I'm not convinced that halal or kosher slaughter is inherently worse or better than any other kind of slaughter. It's still slaughter, and it's something we humans have to do to survive - but we should do our best to make the slaughter humane.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:00 AM

A non-issue, and part and parcel of the anti-Muslim hysteria now sweeping the globe.

For shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

I don't know about the UK but in the local Shoppers Food Warehouse here in the US they sell Halal goatmeat from Australia, frozen in chunks in a plastic bag.

The frozen pork chitterlings are in the bin to the right and frozen calves liver occupies the front half of the bin.

A scant few mills of PVC packaging separates the clean from the unclean.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:18 AM

I have my own reservations about being a meat eater and I am not often pleased with myself that I like meat. Slaughter is always a concern.

But then think too of the millions of fish and crustacea that are cought each year, who all die without stunning at all, choking on fresh air, being smothered by the weight of all the others above them

What humane practice is afforded fish and such?

Eat meat, whatever the kind of meat, and something has suffered for it

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

There are two entirely separate issues here.

The first one is that of animal welfare. In the UK the law requires pre-stunning, and ritual slaughter on religious grounds is only permitted as an exception. Most people assume this is because pre-stunning is considered to be more humane - whether or not this is actually the case (and the debate seems unresolved on this), this is the widespread perception, reinforced by the views of organisations such as the RSPCA.

If I visit an Asian restaurant then I might expect it to serve halal meat, but that is something I can choose to take into consideration. What is upsetting people is the revelation that meat slaughtered in a way which they consider to be less humane is being served without their knowledge and in situations where they wouldn't necessarily expect it, simply because those organisations cannot be bothered to go to the effort of providing separate menus for Muslims.

I choose to eat meat. I would prefer that the animals have been reared in decent conditions and slaughtered in a humane way. If I go to an Asian restaurant I have to consider the possibility (even if it isn't announced) that they may use halal meat but I can decide for myself. If non-Muslim organisations are also serving it in circumstances where I wouldn't expect to find it, I cannot make that choice.

That is quite different from the other, less acceptable point of view, (which I suspect underlies the Daily Mail's message even if it isn't explicit) which is that this is another example of the feelings of the Muslim minority taking priority over those of the rest of us. It is deplorable that an issue of animal welfare should be used to whip up anti-Muslim feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:05 PM

another example of the feelings of the Muslim minority taking priority over those of the rest of us.

Oh, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM

Halal or not ? it´s just meat ? who cares , not me I just eat it .

The halal is used here as well so we can sell the meat to our friends
in Islam country´s .

the other way is used , for the meat that we send to USA and Europe
.

so " verði ykkur að góðu "

all the best skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:56 PM

This issue has a history.

It's not so many years that the only organizations campaigning against halal and kosher slaughter were parties of the Fascist right. Even the Daily Mail wouldn't jump on their bandwagon..

Now they do. So, it seems, does quite a bit of the media, including the "liberal" papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:57 AM

Greg F, to be clear, I was deploring that interpretation of the story. However it does seem to underlie the Daily Mail's reporting, if only by implication.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM

Meat is murder ... or it isn't.

You can't have your cake and eat it.


Lizzie either believes that we should be vegetarian or that its ok to kill animals.


The rest is anti moslem bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:32 AM

Howard, I was reacting to the Daily Mail's interpretation, not to your post.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

There is a theory that an animal that is more relaxed at point of death has more tender meat.

I started using a halal butcher when, as we often hold parties, BBQs etc, and many of our friends are Muslim, it became a good idea even when it is just my wife and I. I now use a halal butcher in the nearest large town if I happen to go there for any other reason. If it just normal meat purchases, I use a butcher in the nearby village. After all, supporting local trades is something we try to make a point of.

I must admit, halal meat, especially lamb, seems in many cases to need less cooking down if I make a curry, stew etc. This could lead to the mental leap that the animal was less tense at time of death, but having been taught the value of thorough testing, I don't have enough data to say this is exactly the case.

Interesting to read that the RSPCA reckon all meat is stunned before slitting. Interesting... A good friend of mine used to go to Nandos when in a city, as some (their website says which) of their places use only halal meat. (I have been with him to Liverpool Lime St, and that is, for instance.) He now has a worry as to whether he can go any more. Stunning and then slitting is not perceived by many as being true halal and he is true to his faith so is in a bit of a quandary. of course, me being irreligious, I can't understand and have problems even empathising, but I do see his problem.

It also shows that the stunning before slitting is only in the larger factory environment meat preparation places. The smaller Asian community butchers will not be stunning, as they feel it lowers the quality of the meat.

I am perhaps purposely missing the point of the thread. I am of the opinion that religion in general has a lot to answer for and in an ideal world, no religion would have influence over reality. However, to stop halal is a pipe dream. it just ain't going to happen. There are more mosque going Muslims than there are church going Christians in this country, (source - MORI) and stopping Halal stands about as much chance as swapping Xmas for Ramadan as the national main holiday.

Live and let live, and stop trying to alienate sections of the community. I don't have a problem with halal. Many Muslims I know, work with and count as friends have no problem with my liking for beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:36 AM

I'm looking forward to Argentine steak tomorrow evening - lots of it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:41 AM

Whilst I am aware that there are claims that the halal method is more humane than pre-stunning, I am not convinced, and neither it seems are animal welfare groups.

Jack Campin's comparison of a large commercial abattoir and a single animal being slaughtered in a Turkish village is hardly comparing like with like. To supply meat in the quantities suggested by these latest stories means commercial-scale slaughterhouses using halal methods. Regardless of the method of slaughter, the better abattoirs try to minimise stress to the animal, no only on welfare grounds but because it affects the quality of the product.

The law specifies a particular method of slaughter. I am prepared to accept, with some reluctance, a relaxation on religious grounds. However this practice seems to draw a coach and horses through the legislation, to the extent that I wonder whether it is in fact legal to use halal or kosher methods when the meat is not intended specifically for those markets. It is surely contrary to the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

Let's face it, these organisations are serving halal meat to everyone because it is cheaper for them to do this rather than make separate provision for Muslim customers. They've kept quiet about it because they knew it would be unacceptable to many of their other customers if they knew.

It does raise the question, if Muslims and Jews want special treatment to meet their religious requirements, should they be prepared to pay extra for halal or kosher meat?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM

if Muslims and Jews want special treatment to meet their religious requirements, should they be prepared to pay extra for halal or kosher meat?

They always have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:53 AM

"I'm looking forward to Argentine steak tomorrow evening - lots of it!!! "

I certainly wouldn't eat that shite, stuffed full of growth hormones - it's local, grass-fed British meat for me. During the autumn/winter months, we also tend to eat a lot of game. The advantages are that it's cheap (or often free), it's delicious, it's free-range, and it's the by-product of other activities and might otherwise go to waste (pheasant/grouse shoots, wood pigeon/rabbit control, roadkill and ferreting). Of course, I would never, ever resort to poaching, which is illegal (LOL).

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM

Note Lizzie - as usual, leveller doesn't know what he is talking about. Have you seen the quality of grazing in Argentina, and the amount of space. Don't even begin to think that you know any thing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:01 PM

"as usual, leveller doesn't know what he is talking about"

Why would I want to eat meat that's been imported from half-way round the world when I can eat the meat of lovely slowly raised Dexters from a farmer that I know just down the road, and that I know has been humanely slaughtered and properly matured? The taste is just incomparable, it supports the local enconomy, it dramatically reduces food miles - in fact, it's a no-brainer. Really Boko, you do talk complete bollocks.

Ah, sorry, forgot - you live in a concrete jungle where real food is unavailable.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM

Ah, apologies Boko, I've just realised what you meant - you're having a corned beef sandwich for your tea! Enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:37 PM

In our local butcher there's a sign telling customers the provenance of their beef and lamb; the farms are invariably only a few miles from the shop and you can drive past and see how they're getting on any time.

And he sells a full range of offal too, which I love.

Mmmmmm!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:20 PM

where I live there are no Halal butchers, there are plenty of butchers who use local grown produce.
the best meat in my opinion is that that is grown and fed only on grass or hay or silage during the winter, hay is preferable to silage.
of course for those lucky enough to live in new zealand south island beef can be reared outside all the year round.
that would be possible here in ireland if farmers went back to KERRY COWS [OR THE RELATED DEXTER]because they are hardier and can cope with being outside in ireland all the year round.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:45 PM

Most New Zealand cows are in the North Island. I grew up in Hamilton, NZ - we were told at school that the countryside immediately around us had the highest density of cattle in the world. I can well believe it, though probably the battery farms for cattle they have in the Czech Republic have beaten the record now. NZ had huge problems with land erosion due to overstocking, whole hillsides slipping away.

One of the most repulsive things I've ever seen done to an animal was at the agricultural research institute at Massey University (Palmerston North, NZ). It was a cow with a foot-wide rubber bung surgically implanted in its side. This connected to its stomach. The idea was that it made it easier for the researchers to analyze the stomach contents. Yes, it was free-range, but.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

Any half decent chef will tell you that local produce is aways best.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:26 PM

You are forgetting leveller that we have tea at 4pm in the south, and dinner in the evening!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:29 AM

Turkey is a very popular place for the UK traveller to visit for holidays and you would expect food to be prepared in the traditional way without question the same as in Morrocco, Tunisia and Egypt. I can't imagine every single traveller is going to think about how the food was prepared come lunchtime. As for the non-Halal countries there is no guarantee that they are going to be any more humane. Spain has little regard for the suffering of bulls for sport let alone anything else. As long as an establishment has a notice to inform what is Halal and what is not I can't see a problem I suppose it could be set out far apart from non-Halal instead of next to or in a completely different area for somewhere like Tesco like they do in a Turkish food store. I don't like the thought of suffering either but even if I stick to veggie meals and vegetarian cheeses it isn't going to make a difference to the practises of how animals are treated it's only going to make me sleep better at night. Not so long ago there was footage of workers in a well known turkey farm in UK being captured on film using turkeys as cricket bats by swinging them by their necks causing a great deal of suffering to the poor things so you can't always guarantee cruelty free meat production.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:24 AM

The main problem with Halal is it doesn't allow pork sausages!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:55 AM

"Ah, apologies Boko, I've just realised what you meant - you're having a corned beef sandwich for your tea! Enjoy!"

You are thinking of the Vesteys of course, my wife's grandfather did business with Blue Star Line, owned by the Vesteys. In fact one of my mother in law's stories was about when the Vesteys visited their house.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:44 AM

I suppose the only good thing is that pigs can breath a sigh of relief for once!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM

manitas at home says Halal doesn't allow pork sausages.

Yeah, in theory...

I was in Azerbaijan a few years ago, which portrays itself as a Shia Muslim state. Albeit a Muslim state with a state owned brewery, but there you go.

Having been a Soviet state all those years, Soviet traditions are somewhat strong, and this includes eating pork. Ironically, it translates from Azeri into both Russian and English as "white beef."

I was in a huge market in Baku and asked about the pork a guy was selling, and how he squared it with his beliefs. before my mate could translate for me, the guy guessed what I was rattling on about, put his arm around me and said in halting english. "It's OK my friend, it is all halal." (!)

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:04 AM

I would ask those who are concerned about 'proper' slaughter of livestock, or about eating meat at all...at what point in our history did these concerns become relevant?
Human beings are omnivores and this is a major factor in our survival. We are here partly because we are, and have been, able to eat almost anything handy. We and our ancestors have eaten meat for ...what?...5 million years? Ideas about 'humane' killing are fairly recent on that scale. As we have learned about disease, and had the luxury of taking the time to adapt, cleanliness has become important, but concern over whether a cow or sheep is 'stunned' or not is a subjective attitude. I have no problem with making the process as clean, quick and 'easy' as possible, but I submit that extreme concern for the animal's mental state in the last minutes of its life is simply a personal projection of various other beliefs.
   The "law of the jungle" means that some animals are hunted, killed and consumed by other animals, and on the whole a bird or deer..or cow... slaughtered by humans for human consumption suffers far less than one killed by a natural predator.

(It is also the case that total 'vegans' must be very careful to get proper nourishment, as meat provides us with necessary parts of our requirements, and abstaining requires study)

I once knew two young women who announced they were going to become vegetarians. A friend of mine asked them if this decision was based on health, on religious principle...or on "BBES". They looked puzzled and asked, "What do you mean, "BBES"?. He replied, "That is "Big Brown Eyes Syndrome".... well, a few days later they came in and agreed that it WAS BBES, and that they really had no particular religious or medical reason to refrain from eating some meat, though they would try to temper their diet with study or alternatives.
   I like that attitude, and I support fully the idea of KNOWING as much as possible about the sources of one's food and its preparation, while also gaining some real perspective about our history AS omnivores and the place of various rituals.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:05 AM

"That is "Big Brown Eyes Syndrome"

I love the Big Brown Eyes Sysndrome in that I love seeing farm animals, especially rare breed pigs. I realise, however, that for them to exist they have to be bred for a purpose - and that purpose is for food.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:08 AM

"You are thinking of the Vesteys"

I have no idea who or what Vesteys is (don't they make curries in a box?). I was thinking Fray Bentos.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:11 PM

BBES is hard to combat. I almost forgot another woman I knew many years ago who told of her family buying a very young pig for the purpose of raising it to be 'holiday dinner'. They kept it in a pen behind a shed, and on its side they painted the word FOOD, just to keep things straight and head off undue familiarity with it.
   She related that a common remark during those months was "Who's going to go out and 'feed' FOOD?"

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:56 PM

Personally, I love to go and say hello to my (water) buffalo steaks every now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:46 AM

A few days ago I decided to take breakfast at Subway and asked for the mega-breakfast. I was told there were no sausages so I left, muttering that they never seemed to have sausages. The server called out after me that they were Halal. At the time I wondered why they didn't just serve beef sausages but it occured to me since that a) the shop had no declaration of a Halal policy and b) they were still serving bacon!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:54 AM

I must admit I have a bit of the 'Big Brown Eyes Syndrome'myself, yes I go gooey over baby lambs and calves, foals, puppies, kittens you name it. All the way through growing up I have always maintained that I would never eat Thumper, Bambi or Daffy ever - until the I went to a popular Chinese Restaurant in the city here and they served some delicious crispy duck as part of the suggested menu and I am ashamed to say that it was delicious.

As a matter of interest has anyone tried any Halal meat to comment on how it tastes, does it make any difference to the quality of the meat? I thought I heard once that the process of how cattle are slaughtered in standard abbetoirs here in the UK made a difference to how tough the meat was because of the sudden jolt. (Sorry to be graphic!).

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:27 AM

It is common knowledge to hunters..(those who hunt for food and not just for 'sport')..that an animal which runs a lot, either before or after being shot, tastes more 'gamey' and tough because of the buildup of certain chemicals in the muscles. The quieter one has been, the more tender the meat. The famous (but very expensive) Kobe beef of Japan is bred for tenderness and processed carefully, sometimes being actually 'massaged' to improved quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: romanyman
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:48 AM

halal meat has been sold here for over twenty years quite openly, where the hell have you been lizzie

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:14 AM

"The server"

Waiter or waitress please!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM

They were not a waiter or waitress. They did not wait on tables. They stood behind the counter and served. Server is the correct word.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,carnivore
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:45 AM

Discussing the aesthetic quality of the meat is rather missing the point of the op.
In UK we have regulations to make meat production more humane.
Methods regarded as inhumane have been permitted, but only on religious grounds, otherwise it was and is illegal.
It used to be the case that we could assume humane slaughter unless we chose otherwise for religious reasons.
That choice has been denied us, and we now have no way of knowing.
The law of the land has been changed without any democratic procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:14 AM

I've not been in here for weeks. It did not take me too long to remember why...

Same old Islamaphobia. Same old arguments. Same old idiots.

See you in another couple of months.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

This has nothing to do with Islamaphobia, actually.

It's about the animals suffering in the least possible way.
It's about the public's right to know, and their right to choose. It's about what is right and what is wrong.

And...it's about WHY this has been allowed to happen without anyone having to tell anyone else.

Just the other day a lady in Devon found out that her local abbatoire killed according to the rules of halal.

Why?   I'm sorry, but....WHY? It is NOT racist to ask that question, not in the slightest. And those who state that it is are merely trying to stifle the debate of why this is being allowed in our country. It has been banned in many others. It should be banned in ours too.

The RSPCA are very unhappy about it, but seem to have caved in, for some inexplicable reason.

Animals and their welfare come before religion in my book, no matter what that religion may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:39 AM

I do not think it is Islamophobic, not more than it is anti-semetic to talk of how Jews kill their food. It is an animal welfare issue and about being humane. The 'experts' need to do more research - good research - and get the actual facts of which is the most humane because they all seem split on it too.

It seems to me that the time when they could rod the brain immediately after captive bolt stuns that the chance of pain or the animal walking was so much lessened. I believe they are not now allowed to rod the brain because of thing's like BSE (though I see no reason why a fresh rod could not be used each time).

Electrocution cannot be so nice either. See how many humans have suffered greatly in the electric chair before dying. I have often wondered on sheep because wool is a good insulator so does all the charge always arrive?

What we really need are facts based on solid research so that we can make an informed choice in the end

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:36 AM

Shechita and Halal slaughter has been an emotional issue in Europe for some time

In the UK
"The requirement in British legislation for the pre stunning of animals in slaughterhouses has ALWAYS provided exemptions for the Jewish and Muslim methods of slaughter"
From the House of Commons Library - last updated 23 September 2010

In Germany post 1880 the Tierschutz ('animal welfare') movement protested shechita and although this met with little support it was subsequently embraced by the Nazis; laws established after 1933 put substantial restrictions on the practice
The Nazi conquests of Poland and other regions and countries saw the extension of their ban on Jewish and Islam methods of slaughter Benito Mussolini likewise forbade it in Italy.
The Allied governments lifted these bans, together with other race laws, after the liberation of Europe in 1945.

In the UK the far-right National Front party campaigned against religious slaughter

"All the Jews have to do is stop this barbaric and torturous murder of defenceless animals. When they cease the slaughter the NF will cease its campaign. Until then the NF campaign for animal welfare will continue"

Its successor the BNP renewed its opposition to Jewish and Islamic ritual slaughter by publishing
"Halal and kosher ritual slaughter of fully conscious animals is a barbaric affront to the British tradition of livestock"

Currently shecita and Halal slaughter is prohibited in Switzerland, Sweden, Iceland, and Norway


mauvepink posts
"The 'experts' need to do more research - good research - and get the actual facts of which is the most humane because they all seem split on it too."

In fact this is exactly what is happening


The DIALREL (Dialogue on Religious Slaughter)
project was set up from October 2006 until Summer 2010

Its full title is -
Religious slaughter, improving knowledge and expertise through dialogue and debate on issues of welfare, legislation and socio-economic aspects

Dr Joe. Regenstein is a Professor of Food Science in the Department of Food Science and Institute of Food Science at Cornell University and head of the Cornell Kosher and Halal Food Initiative. He also serves as an Adjunct Professor in the Department of Population Medicine and Diagnostic Sciences in the College of Veterinary Medicine.

There is an informative interview with him for the (Association de Sensibilisation, d'Information et de Défense de Consommateurs Musulmans) in which he suggests some organizations are

" using the inherent Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia of Europe as a way to get support for their agenda"

While
"Ironically, throughout history Europe had some of the highest levels of cruelty to animals and misuse of animals, including fox hunting and bullfighting"

He refers to the US position
"At the state level we are seeing a move to religious supervision requirements that meet « truth in labeling » and « consumer right-to-know » approach."

From "A life worth living"

In April 2008, the Food and Farming minister in the United Kingdom, Lord Rooker, stated that halal and kosher meat should be labeled when it is put on sale, so that members of the public can decide whether or not they want to buy food from animals slaughtered by this method which he personally objected to

However the original post complained that
"TESCO and ASDA now have halal meat counters in some of their stores"
- So, presumably the initial complaint was about the actual production and sale of halal meat rather than labelling?

i.e. "We're now allowing animals to be killed in the halal way in the UK. I think this is very, very wrong"

"The RSPCA allow this to happen because they have now insisted all animals killed in this way are 'stunned' first."

As regards the RSPCA position on current legislation (they are not actually the legislators!) this is clearly explained in detail on their fact sheet "Religious slaughter" which points out that about 90% of Halal slaughter involved pre stunning and reinforces its view that pre stunning is essential to humane slaughter

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM

I'm well aware the RSPCA do not make the legislation.   If you took the trouble to read posts through you'd find I put a link into the RSPCA page from where this is taken..

"..If you, like the RSPCA, are concerned about the welfare of animals at slaughter/killing, please write to your local MP and to:

The Rt. Hon. Caroline Spelman MP
Secretary of State for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Department of Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Nobel House
17 Smith Square
LONDON SW1P 3JR.

Please write concisely in your own words, and mention some of the key animal welfare issues at slaughter/killing and some of the ways in which improvements could be made..."

This is nothing to do with the National Front, or the BNP. The fact that many people may agree with their sentiments about the *animals* is neither here nor there. As the BNP have had followers who quite happily lash out at others, regardless of colour or creed, I find it hard to think they'd be worried about animals, to be honest.

Neither is it to do with the Daily Mail...yawn...or the Far Left, or the Far Right or the Far Middle. It is purely about animal welfare and the shocking decision that this kind of slaughter is not only happening in this country now, en masse, as Tesco's and Asda aren't just buying the odd one or two animals, let's be serious here....but it's also now out there in the main food chain, without the public being aware of this. THAT is my bugbear..

I'm sorry, but I'm also brave enough to stand up and say that there is much, in many religions, that is horribly wrong, sometimes bordering on evil.

In this day and age, SURELY we have moved forward enough to know what is right and wrong, and there is no need to live our lives to the rigid and cruel conformity of ancient books written in ancient times, by ancient people.....when life was tough and hard and so often barbaric.

Tell me, if the Koran, the Torah, or the Bible stated that all children under 5, born on a Wednesday, at full moon, should have their throats cut, then be left to die, slowly and in dire pain until all blood has dripped out of them, as a sacrifice to the Gods, purely because some weird bloke, or bunch of weird people decided that's what turned him/them on at the time, would you be telling me that it was right?

Or how about if a Holy Book decreed that those children, after death, should be eaten....?

Yeah, it's a shocking and an horrific thought, right?

The hugely worrying thing is that *some* would do exactly that, only because in their narrow, brainwashed minds, it would be a 'Holy' request/rule/regulation/requirement, and therefore, it would be law and it would have to be done.

It's crazy. It's madness. It's insanity.

Halal slaughter, in my opinion, and in that of many others it would seem...is barbaric.

And I say again, it is banned in many countries, and it should be banned here too.   

The Jewish and Muslim religions should also look deep inside their souls about this matter, and others...as much as the Catholic religion should look deep inside its soul over various matters within its' religion.

A Holy Book does not make this 'right'.
Not in my Book, at least.

And to get the British public to be a party to this, by NOT telling people what's going on is disgusting, deceitful and deranged.

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:55 AM

as much as the Catholic religion should look deep inside its soul over various matters within its' religion.

Now far be it from me to defend a religion, but I know of nothing in the Catholic religion which in any way worse than others.

Tell me, if the Koran, the Torah, or the Bible stated that all children under 5, born on a Wednesday, at full moon, should have their throats cut, then be left to die, slowly and in dire pain until all blood has dripped out of them, as a sacrifice to the Gods,

I doubt if it would make much difference if they stunned them first either; the argument is not about killing all animals, it's about how you kill them. And I think that's been comprehensively answered- both halal and kosher rules accept the stunning of animals before they are killed.

If you want pain and fear free food, with dignity, stop eating meat, and accept the other consequences of that decision.

If it's merely about information, talk about all the other things we aren't allowed to know about meat, and food in general. Where it's from, how it was treated from birth to death, what it was fed on, what medication it has received, its genetic lineage, how its relationship with its parent and/ or offspring was respected, its shelter, freedom to roam, how far it had to travel from its familiar environment to its place of slaughter, what the travelling conditions were, its treatment around the time of slaughter, the hygienic conditions in the abattoir, the conditions under which the meat was kept and for how long. The list can easily go on, but we are not allowed to know many of these things, and we have virtually no way of knowing if the information given is accurate.

Merely to concentrate on one, divisive, aspect of animal welfare reeks of special pleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:40 AM

"Or how about if a Holy Book decreed that those children, after death, should be eaten....?

Yeah, it's a shocking and an horrific thought, right?

The hugely worrying thing is that *some* would do exactly that, only because in their narrow, brainwashed minds, it would be a 'Holy' request/rule/regulation/requirement, and therefore, it would be law and it would have to be done.

It's crazy. It's madness. It's insanity."

It's also a completely ludicrous analogy as no religion does - of course!

My argument remains that anyone who genuinely cares about animal welfare but who eats meat or fish or uses the products of animal husbandry in any way should primarily concern themselves with the treatment of animals throughout their whole life rather than use emotive statements about Jewish and Islamic pracices such as "bordering on evil" which feed into both anti semitic and anti muslim sentiments

Hens - crammed sometimes as many as 5 to a small cage piled uopn thousands of others - through selection, lighting and feed produce an egg almost every day of their short lives, when their ancestors lay just 20 a year.
This leaching of calcium results in severe osteoporosis but an even sadder by product are the day-old male chicks (forty million of them every year) incapable of laying eggs - who are often simply crushed to death.

Chickens raised for meat fare little better For large scale slaughter they are lifted by their legs when they are fully conscious. Their heads are immersed in water to make electrical contact, but some flutter and are not stunned

Female breeding pigs, despite some improvements by campaigners, can still be confined in metal farrowing crates while they deliver and suckle their annual 2.5 litters.

Even the lambs who grace our landscape are transported from market place to holding pen, from livestock dealer to exporter often an average of eight times each
Many are subjected to days of road transport, not only within the UK, crammed with others in unventilated, unheated transporters;
whole consignments have died of stress, thirst and heat stroke.

I will not make any riduculous comparisons about what would anyone feel if we treated our children in this way.

The name of the 'religion' in which we subject farmed animals to this cruelty is the provision of daily cheap affordable meat - is it less barbaric than 'ancient' practices or progress in the name of nutrition?

I also believe we should indeed have "moved forward enough to know what is right and wrong" but understand that 'rights and wrongs' are not the simplistic issues 'some' vociferate

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM

I believe that Lizzie is correct in asserting that we consumers have a right to be informed of the conditions in which our meat was reared and slaughtered.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:05 PM

I do not care if someone sacrificed their goat to frigging Kali. But as a humanitiarian consumer I care if the meat I eat was killed in a barbaric manner or not. If you *need* religious sadism, please do it on your own island.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:02 PM

Of course meat should be labelled - although this was not the point of the original post and neither has anyone argued against it.

BUT the consumer should also have the right to a truly informed decision about
(as Paul Burke argued in his post of 03 Oct 10 - 10:55 AM)

"Where it's from, how it was treated from birth to death, what it was fed on, what medication it has received, its genetic lineage, how its relationship with its parent and/ or offspring was respected, its shelter, freedom to roam, how far it had to travel from its familiar environment to its place of slaughter, what the travelling conditions were, its treatment around the time of slaughter, the hygienic conditions in the abattoir, the conditions under which the meat was kept and for how long"

Additionally an informed decision about the 'barbarity' of any method of slaughter should be based upon factual information and research - there seems to be little or no evidence that a lower voltage of stunning as used in the production of the vast majority of Halal meat is any less or more humane than that used in other abattoirs.

As an omnivore who also cares about animal welfare I do not eat meat imported from countries where the conditions in which animals are reared do not comply with higher standards in the UK even if it may be cheaper - I would opt for a vegetarian alternative if cost was the issue
For example sow stalls have been banned in the UK since 1999, but will not be banned across the EU until 2013.

There is still plenty of animal 'sadism' on this small island however and, as I posted, it is in the name of the barbaric 'religion' of cheap food and profit at the expense of animal welfare.

Get to understand and know your labels

Like many other people I have no doubt that the reason the EDL the BNP and some right wing papers are raising this story at the present time has nothing atall to do with animal welfare but is an abuse and simplification of those concerns to protest the introduction of different cultural migrants into the UK

I have weighed up my 'compassion' for the identity and religious beliefs of both Muslims and Jews against my compassion for animals

On all the evidence I have read, plus my own direct observations of abbatoirs, I am not suffciently convinced to condemn the use of lower voltages and a method which seems to have evolved with some welfare of the animal in mind - for example the animal can't be allowed to see another animal being slaughtered - as barbaric and 'bordering on evil'

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM

"If you want pain and fear free food, with dignity, stop eating meat, and accept the other consequences of that decision"

That is not strictly true unless you can guarantee there have been no chemicals used in vegetable production. Death on a massive scale happens in farmer's fields all over the world with the use of pesticides/insecticides and such like. If you are vegitarian do not think animals do not die because of it. If we are to respect life then we also have to think about all those insects too )many that are not pests included(. Any less and we enter into speceism and so ad infinitum.

As a species we have to survive... but as the species that can think and use logic coupled with emotion, we perhaps owe more to animals than they ever do us.

Fact is, as humans, it is hard for us to eat without impacting on other animals lives. What we, therefore. owe to those animals is the best welfare, care and humaneness we can. But that costs money and people want cheap food.... even cheap vegetables.

Vegan and Vegetarian lifestyle is not death free in the main

No-one has the moral high ground on this and all we can do is so our bit to try and make things better

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

I `ad this Animal Welfare mush in my cab the other day.I could tell `e was one of `em by the tyre marks all over `is trousers. `parently `ed layed down in front of a lorry load of `orses bound for France but the driver never saw `im.
`e said, "Jim can you take me to the RSPCA headquarters please? I want to get a hexpert opinion on the most `umane way of doing for the creatures."
I said, " Wouldn`t you be better off asking the animals??"

Whaddam I Like??

Anyway, does `alal to shecita apply to `orses?
Do dogs get special treatment in Korea?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 04:16 PM

Of course they do. A dog is for lunch, not just for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:28 PM

Been away from this thread for a while... and I haven't read all the posts...

If you had to choose between being ``stunned`` with an electric powered bolt gun putting a three inch deep hole in your forehead before having your throat slit or just having your throat slit, what would you opt for?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:38 PM

PPaul,

Or indeed - a dog isn't just for christmas lunch ... the left overs are good for bubble and squeak and packed lunches for months to come ...

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:15 PM

"If you had to choose between being ``stunned`` with an electric powered bolt gun putting a three inch deep hole in your forehead before having your throat slit or just having your throat slit, what would you opt for?"

There has been some discussion about scientific evidence of both forms of slaughter although the RSPCA acknowledges that the majority (at least 90%) of Halal slaughtered animals are stunned in the UK prior to slaughter.

This is a link to a website that also claims some experimental comparisons between different forms of slaughter - I contribute it for information only - I can neither confirm or dispute the results.

My concern is that, given as one poster pointed out, this method of slaughter has been carried out legally by both Jewish and Muslim communities in the UK for many years it is 'suspect' why a specificaly anti Halal/Muslim campaign has currently been generated by the press and extreme right wing organizations in the UK and reproduced here - if there is an animal welfare issue at stake it has been around for a long time without previous commebt!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:34 PM

EB... why quote my question if you don`t answer itÉ

É = question mark... my keyboard is messed up.

In any case, I likely won`t be back here for a while simlpy because that`s the kind of stuff I can`t understand or abide.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:03 PM

"EB... why quote my question if you don`t answer itÉ"

It's a bit difficult to answer a question about how you would personally prefer to be killed, but I sincerely attempted to repsond to what I assumed was the underlying question about methods of animal slaughter by making a link to one experiment that claimed to measure levals of pain of both methods quoted in the question.

I'm sorry if that is "the kind of stuff" you "can`t understand or abide." perhaps it would help if you could explain what you can understand/abide.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:32 PM

Personally, I like the Normandy France method for Duck.

Strangle the Duck....let the blood cool into the meat (making it iron rich, healthy and a dark ... almost purple in roasted color)

However, being a boiled goat-meat connosuier....Let the GOAT Meat BLEED...and Bleed...and bleed some more...too much blood makes the meat taste nasty.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Never a Vegan ... born a carnivor.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:23 AM

Emma, I think there has been a change.
To get halal and kosher here you used to have to go to a specialist supplier.
Now it is becoming ubiquitous.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 04:09 AM

Keith A - I reckon supply and demand is behind the explosion of outlets. Not only with those communities for whom Halal / kosher is important, but also to many others. I said above that slaughter of a relaxed animal does, just like the experts say, make the meat less tense, and this is important for such as lamb, making the stewing down time less important.

Regarding some of the posts here, including the original discussion, veiled bigotry using animal welfare as a convenient cover is rather distasteful if you ask me.

In terms of the more general issue here, I'm with Homer Simpson. Can't remember the exact quote but it is something like "If God wanted us to be vegetarians, why are animals made from meat?"

Quite..

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM

"To get halal and kosher here you used to have to go to a specialist supplier."

Indeed!
There was an interview with Josceline Dimbleby the well known food writer on the radio a couple of days ago in which she remembered that when she wrote her first recipes for 'a well known supermarket' they stocked only one drum of 'mixed herbs' and another of 'mixed spices' To get any of the wonderful range of ingredients we take for granted these days you would have had to go to a specialist supplier
Times have changed

"Now it is becoming ubiquitous."

I understand the definition of ubiquitous as being or 'seeming to be' everywhere at the same time;

The recent manufactured outrage by the Mail on Sunday to the serving of halal meat continued in The Sun, The Express and the Mail Online used such scare headlines as, "Outrage over secret halal"; "Millions being served secretly with halal meat" and "Halal Britain." so indeed, to readers of these publications, Halal meat would indeed seem to be omnipresent

One website claiming to be 'watching the (left wing) enablers of Islamisation' carries the typical headline " 'Hidden Halal' Meat is Flooding Britain "

The article is an interesting combination of contradictions

"Most lamb imported from New Zealand by British supermarkets has been slaughtered according to Muslim law, but this is not mentioned on packaging"

{As long ago as April 2004 the BBC news site was reporting that
"New Zealand's method of slaughtering lamb could satisfy both religious practices and welfare concerns in Britain" and "nearly all New Zealand lamb imported by Britain is stunned and then slaughtered observing halal principles."}

Or, as the site says later
"The supermarkets and fast-food outlets said they did not feel the need to tell customers that meat is halal because the slaughter conformed to Western standards, with animals stunned before being killed."
But continuing…
"More than 70% of New Zealand lamb imports to Britain are halal… but you wouldn't know it from the label."
And
"All Islamically slaughtered lamb and chicken sold in British supermarkets is stunned before being killed, but is not labelled as halal."

In other words the only 'difference' that requires a specidic label on the package is that a prayer has been said at the point of slaughter!

The article end with the emotive appeal

"Where is the due care paid to people who do not wish to eat ritually-slaughtered meat, or, more particularly, meat ritually-slaughtered for the Muslim market?
What about the people who object on compassionate grounds?

This is a particularly nasty practice and it should be stopped in its tracks. But the only way is by direct action and wider exposure.
If people do not put pressure on their MPs or representatives, organise local action and lobby local media; nothing will happen."


A site that looks at the vilification of Muslims in some of the UK tabloid press comments

"Each article uses words to depict a covert operation of halal by stealth, pushed on to "unsuspecting diners". Put together, these conjure up images of the myth that there is a creeping Islamification of Britain, further stoking the manufactured fear of a Muslim takeover

The debate is framed around the issue of animal welfare and customers not being informed of how their meat is slaughtered. Why would it be an issue whether the meat is halal or not?

The issue certainly isn't about animal welfare.

If it was, why do we not find campaigns against battery farming practices in Britain?

Why no moral outrage there by the public?
Let's also not forget, Kosher, like halal meat, is prepared by draining the blood from the animal before being prepared so why is the focus of this attack exclusively on the Muslim community?

It is naïve to assume that the issue is one of animal rights or customer choice. Halal meat has been served in "Indian" restaurants, run by Muslims, for decades and yet the moral outrage only finds expression now"

Steaming Willie said "veiled bigotry using animal welfare as a convenient cover is rather distasteful if you ask me."

hear hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:33 AM

Please do not be so quick to shout bigot.
This is only an issue for me if more animals are slaughtered in an unnecessarily cruel way, and particularly if the meat I eat has not been slaughtered as humanely as possible.
If there is no extra cruelty I have no problem with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:37 AM

When it comes to cruelty Lobsters don't fare any better. I'm not convinced that killing them that way in boiling water is painfree but people still select them from a tank in a restaurant without batting an eyelid.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

A good chef keeps lobsters in a chiller for several hours before cooking them. This 'numbs' the lobster's central nervous system so that it is effectively 'stunned' before cooking.

Taking them straight from the tank to boiling water is cruel and unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:05 PM

Personally, I like to get my critter crocked before slaughter.

Kobe Beef - an extra large portion of Kirin Beer - does just fine.

Lobster - a bottle of white wine added to the lower "hydrator" twelve hours before.

Abalone - same as above.

Pig - a half bushel of appeles the the day before - intoxicated and they blow a blue wind....under a night sky as the viseral drops to the ground.

Goat - just slit the troat - and boil and rinse... boil and rinse again. (Same as racoon, possem, and squirrel.)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 07:49 AM

Some non-halal abattoir practices. In Today's Guardian.