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BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church
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Subject: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 20 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM Some highly intelligent thoughts on this subject. This was recorded last year, I believe..before the pope's very recent visit to the UK. Part 1 Part Two |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 20 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM Interesting discussion, when you include the two other folks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: katlaughing Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:10 PM Very interesting. Thanks so much for posting it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM And he's so right, thanks for the post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:11 AM Stephen Fry looked very emotional at the end of the second video. It clearly meant a lot to him to say those things and no doubt a lot also to many other people including me. He has a way of holding an audience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: katlaughing Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM I thought so, too, eanjay and Bonzo3legs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Abdul The Bul Bul Date: 21 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM Wonderful. Thanks for the 'heads up'. Al |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:52 PM I mainly know Stephe Fry through his presence on the BBC's Last Chance to See, during which his co-presenter, Mark Carwardine, came across as a much more polite competent person - even though he is more used to being behind a camera. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM He's a good debater, and a sincere one. But it's important to remember that a debate is a performance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Mrs.Duck Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:10 PM Debate is an art. I was very impressed with his speaking and couldn't help but agree with everything he said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:19 PM That was a brilliant speech. I have seldom heard such a fine piece of oratory, and the man obviously cares deeply about what he is saying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:45 PM He's an 'aggressive secularist' - burn him! Oh no, we can't do that any more - drat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM "He's an 'aggressive secularist' - burn him!" Wring thread....that's pirate talk:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM He's an 'aggressive secularist' . Except that he isn't, as even a superficial skim through his speech indicates. Unlike his fellow debater Christopher Hitchens, who is. Which makes Stephen Fry a much more effective debater. Maybe it might made for a better debate if it had been George Galloway instead of Ann Widdecombe... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:23 PM I was going to start another thread for this one, but thought I'd better put it in here. Took me an age to locate this, as it's been removed from Youtube now, but I thought I'd share this programme. It's Stephen Fry's documentary about depression, following his own diagnosis, where he opens up the whole world of manic depression. The Secret Life of a Manic Depressive |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Martha Burns Date: 21 Sep 10 - 11:44 PM What an impressive man! I've known and loved him as Jeeves, but never knew this other side. Wonderful speech, wonderful mind. Thanks very much for sharing! P.S. Did you happen to notice that he barely looked at his text the whole time he spoke? What a memory, too! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Micca Date: 22 Sep 10 - 03:03 AM For another (and interestingly different) side of Mr Fry try his book on how to write Poetry " The Ode Less travelled" it is quirky, funny, but FULL of useful suggestions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: gnomad Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:05 AM SF is something of a national treasure, and it is no surprise to me that he makes such good sense on this subject. He has written extensively in several forms, but I feel he is best in brief doses, journalism rather than novels. Paperweight is a collection of his short writings over several years for various purposes, which I can recommend with some pleasure. I believe he has more recently produced a further collection, but I have yet to read it. His voice as a recorder of audio books is also well worth seeking out imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:38 AM McGrath, It would be interesting to know if the Catholic Church finds Mr Fry's particular brand of secularism to be 'aggressive' or not. His attack on the CC's attitude towards sex seemed to be pretty aggressive to me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:54 AM He has written extensively in several forms, but I feel he is best in brief doses This brief enough for you? http://twitter.com/STEPHENFRY |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Mrs.Duck Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:56 AM I found no trace of aggression in the speech. Neither did I find it was over biased towards 'secularism', in fact Stephen Fry said he had no issue with Catholics or any other faith and belief systems. He spoke on the motion that the Catholic Church (as an institution) was not a force for good as its dogmas had historically and currently caused harm to individuals or groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:09 AM Interesting. At least at the beginning, there's nothing I can disagree with. I especially liked this: It's also very important to me as it happens that I have my own beliefs. They are a belief in the Enlightenment, a belief in the eternal adventure of trying to discover moral truth in the world. Discover: it's a terribly important word to which we might return. ...but then he goes to extremes, and I can't agree. Fry says the Catholic Church is obsessed with sex, but yet I've rarely heard mention of sex from the pulpit. He talks of selling art and giving the proceeds to the poor, but neglects to say that this is generally religious art. In many ways, I agree with Fry completely, and the issues he addresses have been addressed by intellectuals within the Catholic Church. There is no doubt that there is need for reform within the Catholic Church and that much evil has been wrought by the institutional church. I guess the main flaw that I see in Fry's presentation is his assumption that the "institutional church," the power structure within the Catholic Church, is the essence of the Catholic Church. I disagree. I have found that the essence of any institution is not in its leadership or its organizational structure, which are most often corrupt and confused. The essence of any organization, including the Catholic Church, is the people. I think we put too much faith in leadership and structures, and we place too much blame on leadership and structures. The Catholic faith is in the people. The leadership and structures exist only to serve - not that leaders understand that very often. I've been a Catholic all my life, and the Catholic faith is part of who I am. For most of my life, I have been extremely annoyed (or worse) at the "institutional church" - but for me, that's not the Catholic Church - that's just the authority structure, which has very little relevance to my day-to-day life as a Catholic. To me, what's far more relevant is the nun who gives me a warm, welcoming hug every time I see her. To me, what's far more relevant are the people I see every week at Mass, people who care about me and help make my life rich and full. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:23 AM Mrs. Duck says Fry "spoke on the motion that the Catholic Church (as an institution) was not a force for good as its dogmas had historically and currently caused harm to individuals or groups." I would submit that the dogmas (official teachings of the Catholic Church) are generally benign - and if not, at least they're innocuous. The practices of the power structure of the Catholic Church (and, indeed, of most every organization) are another matter, and seem to be dominated by power issues rather than by what is at the essence of the organization. Take a close look at any organization that has an effect on your life. Is it the leadership and authority structure of the organization that affects you, or is it the people in that organization who have direct contact with you? I submit that for most Catholics, Rome is unimportant. If you want to understand how the Catholic faith affects Catholics, you have to look at the life within individual parishes - not at the power structure. The power structure, for the most part, is barely relevant. It's individuals that count. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 22 Sep 10 - 06:00 AM Catholic apologists are akin to Neo-Nazi apologists, maybe worse given the tenure of the Catholic Reich which ensures the suppression of The Enlightenment will continue unabated for some centuries yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:12 AM If "the Enlightenment" is in trouble I can't really see that that is the doing of us Neo-Nazis (or worse) who collectively make up the Catholic Church... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM I would revise his statements entirely and just do a generic all churches in general. The Catholic church gets all the press because it is the oldest and largest but one only has to look at the others to see the mess is not confined to one flavor. Until Christians get back to God and not churches it will continue even if it didn't exist at all. They all have more then their share because they are run by people and people want power and it all turns ugly. Joe is right, you don't make general statements, there are many good people in the Catholic church. JOE is one of them .. and like most Catholics we could care a hoot about Rome. Well it was a nice place to visit and I liked the art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:33 AM case in point, it ain't limited to the Catholic church church of England |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM One of the points that Stephen Fry was making was about the restrictions put on people by their faith and the impact of those restrictions. Clearly not everyone of that faith adheres to those restrictions but some people feel they must. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: alanabit Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:23 AM As it happens, I agree with Stephen Fry on every point, but I agree with Joe too. However, it is obvious to most people that the management structure of the Catholic church has for far too long been allowed to misrepresent the actual views of most of its community. Most Catholics I know find the idea of taking guidance on sexual ethics from an octaganarian celibate as ridiculous as I do. The hardest criticism I can make of most Catholics is that for centuries they have allowed the management of their church to become seen as a career ladder for the sexually non-functionl or in some cases the sexually disfunctional. In real life, most Catholics, as do Christians in general, try to live a life inspired by the teachings of a Nazarene carpenter. Fry and Hitchen are attacking an absurd institution and set of dogmas. The more absurd pronouncements of that institution are not found in the bible I read. On a personal level, I have found most monks I have met to be helpful, polite and fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: MGM·Lion Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM eanjay's comment two posts back reminds me of a small, but I think relevant, experience of my own, which I found at the time both amusing and thought-provoking. I was teaching in the 1960s in a secondary school. At school lunch one Friday, one of the boys on my table went to the cooks to get his specially provided fish lunch. "You do know, John," I said to him, "that the Pope has said you don't have to eat fish on Friday any more?" "Never mind the Pope, sir," he replied with a grin; "it's my mum!" ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM On the one hand, the Catholic Church (and many of the other Christian churches) have a terrible historical record of oppression and various crimes against humanity. On the other hand, there are many extremely good and sincere people within those churches, people who do help others, and Fry did take notice of that in his excellent speech. He is aware of it, and he is not attacking individual people of faith, nor is he attacking Jesus, nor is he attacking the Bible, he is attacking a dogmatic, corrupt church hierarchy and tradition. It's the power structure and dogma he is criticizing, not the membership. As such, I find his comments on the subject very apt. It was interesting to see that the religious personage on the panel (the black man) did clap his hands at the end of the speech. By gosh, it's good to see someone talk that intelligently for a change, and at length without being interrupted! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM As Iam at present in a God-forsaken land that hasn't yet had the wit to forsake Him in return (Bosnia) I haven't yet seen the debate. But a couple of points have been made here that deserve to be challenged. First olddude in his assertion that the Catholic church gets all the bad press. It doesn't get a fraction of the stick dished out to the Islamic church. Second, Joe's usual defence that a church is not its hierarchy but its people still doesn't work for the Catholic church. The views of its hierarchy (a hierarchy which in my view most certainly HAS been obsessed with sex (or at least pre-occupied) have wrought great harm on many lives, not least in Africa, often through the manipulation and exploitation of the more vulnerable among its people. Those thinkers and intellectuals within the church who know its behaviour is wrong (I would say morally corrupt) can't say "Not me" unless they are openly applying their efforts towards ending the abuses - starting perhaps with the desperately urgent question of the church's attitude to protected sex in Africa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM The human race has "a terrible historical record of oppression and various crimes against humanity." .......................................... The name of "the black man" is John Onaiyekan, and he is Archbishop of Abuja and President of the Christian Association of Nigeria. ...................... Agreed about it being good to see a discussion about an isssue where people have serious disagreements, but they in which they listen to each other and don't insult each other. We should try to do it that way here more often. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:34 AM And I agree with nearly everything he said. His speech was sincere and was accurate IMO. My only comment is it happens everywhere anymore Catholic and non Catholic churches ... and it is sad . One is better off without any leaders and without any buildings .. works for me lately although I freely admit I will attend when the mood hits me but I see God everywhere and not in one building. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM So we'd be better off with just shopping malls in our cities? Though of course if it's a matter of "without any buildings" there wouldn't be any cities either... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:01 AM Right on, olddude. One doesn't need leaders, big buildings, or a set of rules and dogma to find spiritual comfort and inspiration. If you can't find it on your own, how will you ever know it's real? McGrath, you are quite correct about the human race. Not only our religious institutions, but our business institutions and our political institutions and our military institutions have brought great oppression and abuse down on both humanity and Nature. None of them are above criticism. All of them have also done some good. One needs to look at the whole picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:12 AM "on your own" - but we aren't "on our own". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:48 AM McGrath, I think possibly you are misunderstanding me (or maybe I'm misunderstading you?" When I said "find it on your own", I meant to find something by direct experience rather than simply on the word of another human being. What other people say is often worth listening to, but it's not the final authority. You can only know for sure by your own direct experience. In any case, I didn't mean that there's "nothing out there" with which you can make spiritual contact. I have no basis for saying that there is nothing like that out there, and if I did say so, it would be a dogmatic act of faith on my part! ;-) (I actually DO think there is something out there (and in here), but I wouldn't attempt to define it...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: MAG Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:59 AM We've probably beaten this to death for as much as it's worth; I would agree that all rigid top-down organizations which do not allow questioning authority are prone to the types of abuse discussed here and elsewhere. I would also like to point out that the Catholic Workers newsletter brought up the seriousness and prevalence of child sexual abuse decades before it hit the news bigtime, and that it was dealt with by silence, denial, and blaming the victim. I also remember British feminists at a certain border throwing condoms to their sisters jumping for them on the other side. kudos to Mr. Fry for bringing up our right to control our own bodies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM Not really a misunderstanding, Little Hawk - my point was, we aren't just individuals - in a phrase found both in the Epistles of St Paul and in the Koran, we are "members one of another". Collective worship of one sort or another is a natural expression of that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM I agree with you, McGrath. To realize that is to enable both empathy and compassion. I have found the greatest happiness in life through close relationship with others (and also...the greatest challenges). The fact that people need to experience what you term "collective worship" can be seen in their devotion not only to various religious concepts, but also in their devotion to nations, political parties, football teams, etc... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Doug Chadwick Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:50 AM It's interesting to look at the result of the debate. An entry poll gave: 678 for the motion 1102 against 346 undecided Clearly, the Archbishop and Anne Widdecombe had their work cut out as they not only had to win over the "don't know"s but also had to convert some of the unbelievers if they were to win. After the debate, this had changed to: 268 for the motion 11876 against 34 undecided (Some must have arrived late as the totals are not the same) The landslide swing away from the proposal was due, in part, to the lack of credible argument for the motion, particularly from the Archbishop who seemed to take it as a given that they would win and therefore made no real effort. But above all, it was the clear, factual, well argued case put forward by Stephen Fry that won the day. Somewhere up above, McGrath posted: ……… But it's important to remember that a debate is a performance A good singer still needs a good song. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:01 AM In theory at least you should vote on a debate according to the quality of the debating rather than according to your own views about the issue being debated. Rather like being on a jury. 11,876? Rather a lot of late arrivals... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:09 AM "I submit that for most Catholics, Rome is unimportant" Maybe when it comes to matters that effect local followers personal daily lives. But, I submit that on broader RC issues, the Rome based structure gets its power from support of the local church and it's members. If one belongs to an orghanization and do not object, in any meaningful way, to wrongs that are committed,I see these you as being in league with those in positions of power, who do, advocate, allow or encouraging these wrongs. Being appologists for clear wrongs puts one a few steps closer to the bad guys, as it enables additional wrongs (and, most of them, if not all, are guys). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:13 AM I suspect this is a tip of the iceberg when it comes to Vatican loot. Vatican loot |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:22 AM An updated story on the Vatican bank: Should the Vatican bank should be above the laws that govern other banks? Maybe a claim could be made that Peter said it should be so? "The Italian bishops' conference newspaper Avvenire called the probe 'offensive and inexplicable'. The probe risks straining relations between the Vatican and Italian authorities, especially over the issue of sovereignty and jurisdiction" http://sify.com/news/vatican-defends-its-bankers-in-money-laundering-probe-news-international-kjxpOdbhabf.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:23 AM Sorry, the link: http://sify.com/news/vatican-defends-its-bankers-in-money-laundering-probe-news-international-kjxpOdbhabf.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: freda underhill Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM Very interesting. Yes, I agree with everything he says, but I'm sure many Catholics do. and in Australia, I note that Catholics have been at the forefront of helping refugees, prisoners, AIDs survivors and many marginalised people. It's clear that apart from all the institutional problems, Catholics have a sense of compassion that they are willing to put into action, where many others just spout words. While I'm not a Christian, I greatly respect the social justice movements (including unions) that have evolved out of groups of people inspired by Christianity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM The thing that's important for most people who belong to any church is their own personal connection to that church through their own personal history....and that is where their affection for the church stems from. If their own experiences in the church have been, for them, positive ones...then they will see the church in a positive light. When they are defending the church, they are not so much defending its doctrines or its dogma in most cases as they are simply defending their own past. Having said that, many Catholics are kind and compassionate people who DO good in the world...regardless of the abuses that have been committed by the Catholic Church. It works much the same way with patriotism to a nation...even when that nation commits wrongs against other nations. People naturally will defend the various cultural foundations they grew up standing upon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:54 AM "It works much the same way with patriotism to a nation...even when that nation commits wrongs against other nations. People naturally will defend the various cultural foundations they grew up standing upon" No one that I have seen has ever suggested on Mudcat that there are not good people in the RC church, doing good things...so, I don't know why this has to keep coming up in every discussion, as it only diverts one from another discussion...possibly it is like the Seinfield segment on gayism "not that there is anything wrong with that" I disagree that (in the example given by LH) that "people"... which seems to be presented as all people... do not critise their government when wrongs are being done or endorsed. There are many cases, the Vietnam war, for example, where patriotic USA people, who believe in the US government foundations, actively came forward and said that wrongs were being committed and should stop. Yes, a few people (appoligists) tried to say that statistically, USA wrongs were no greater than the agerage wrongs committed by other nations.....as the attempt used by many main stream RCs in the sex abuse cases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:07 AM I agree with everything you say, Ed. ;-) I just didn't type long enough to cover every possible contingency in detail, but was speaking in a sort of general sense about how human nature usually tends to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Doug Chadwick Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:59 PM 11,876? Rather a lot of late arrivals... Oops! 1,876. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:36 PM Fionn continues to insist that
Nonetheless, Joe's "usual defence" is correct. I think that we humans, as a race, put far too much faith in our institutions. I think we need to accept the fact that any organization with more than 2,500 people, is completely ungovernable unless it is ruled by an absolute monarch. Therefore, we should expect any organization of over 2,500 people to be profoundly fucked up. Well, there are a few large cities that seem to work, but they are rare exceptions. For the most part, most cities, states, nations, and large religious denominations and social organizations are profoundly fucked up. That is their nature. But to take the Catholic Church as an example, let me say that I have never belonged to a "bad" Catholic parish. I've thought for years about why this is my experience. The only conclusion I can come to, is that I will not allow my parish to be anything less that wonderful. The fact that I have eight years of seminary education is helpful - I know the game, and I know it very well. When I move into a new parish, I quickly identify talented people of integrity, and I form strong friendships with them. I was in a parish in the Sacramento area for twenty years, and I was Parish Council President within five years. People often said that I "ran the parish," even though I had no official position in the parish after I was there ten years. I moved to a new parish in a semi-rural area outside Sacramento in 2002. By 2004, I was selected to serve as the parish representative at the diocesan synod; and I was hired as an adult education (RCIA) teacher in 2005. A new (alcoholic and paranoid) pastor was appointed in 2005, and he terminated my job under false pretenses, citing budgetary problems. I kept my master key to the parish buildings until he changed all the locks this year, but he still hasn't stopped me. He has referred to the class I teach as "Joe's fucking bible study," and I regularly cause him to have fits of irrational anger - but he can't touch me, because I am surrounded by a good number of intelligent people of integrity. So, despite the fact that the pastor hates me, I'm still very much a center of power in the community - and eventually, I'll win out. And he knows he can't do anything TOO wrong, because he knows that I'll stop him. Now, I'm not the only one responsible for making sure that this parish doesn't go too far wrong - a number of us have joined together, and there's no way that anybody can get any shenanigans past us for very long. And this is a group of people who love each other intensely - and because of that mutual love and respect, we are infinitely powerful. I think that's the basic message of Jesus Christ - that love conquers all. Now, some of you may look to the Pope to clean up the mess that is the Catholic Church, but the fact of the matter is that the Pope is a powerless figurehead who can do very little. Joe Offer is far more powerful in the Catholic Church than the Pope is. And the same goes for all institutions. It's little people in little communities who make a difference - not the heads of huge entities. How much power does Barack Obama have? He's an amazingly talented man of absolute integrity, and Americans should be proud to have him a President - but people have lost faith in him, because they believed he could heal all the nation's ills. Well, it hasn't happened - and it can't happen. If we want to accomplish anything, we have to do it within relatively small communities. More later. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:08 PM "Joe Offer is far more powerful in the Catholic Church than the Pope is". Well, Joe. If you have such power (I suspect also directly from the rock Peter)greater than the pope, can you make some changes in making women RC priests:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: katlaughing Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:40 PM I agree with Little Hawk's postings, esp. the one of 22nd at 1001a and PeterK(Fionn's) of 22nd 1032a. Joe, you know I care about you and respect you, but there is plenty the pope could do for Catholics in South America and other (third world) countries by telling them is it OK to use condoms, practice birth control, and NOT to follow the church and its priests with blind faith IF it goes against their own conscious, BUT you and I know he never will and you, as powerful as you may think you are, cannot effect them either and those are the countries in which there are so many RC members who do not question the church due to poverty, lack of education, lack of basic needs...desperate people who need something to give them hope...yet the very institution in which they place their faith, keeps them in perpetual poverty by restricting birth control, condom use for safety against diseases, etc. I will never forget what I learned when I researched what I could find, pre-internet, about Ratzinger when writing about his refusal to open up records showing how much gold the church received from the Nazis and that he refused to return any of it. He is an odious person and were he head of any org. I belonged to, I would not be able to defend him, pray for his health, send him tithes, or anything else. It still astounds me that people accept him as their "guide" in faith. So, Joe, if you really are that powerful, how about getting the church to change policies on condom and birth control use, for starters? Then, how about some equality in other ways for women AND allow priests to be married, as they were in earlier times? kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Naemanson Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:49 PM "the pastor hates me" Hypocrisy. In a belief system that professes love so many proponents give in to hate. Mind you, this is not a comment aimed not just at the Catholics but at all Christians. It is hypocrisy that keeps me out of churches. For example, God handed down 10 simple laws. There were no sub texts, footnotes, codicils, or anything else. Consider please: Thou shalt not kill. That's pretty straightforward. Four simple little words. Yet that commandment has been regularly and blatantly ignored since Moses climbed down off the mountain. Another point: Love one another. I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say only love those you like. I think He deliberately made the statement all inclusive. If you want any defense for including the undesirables this is it. If you are ugly, I love you; Gay? I love you; Muslim? I love you. Another? Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Next to "Thou shalt not kill" this is the one statement from the Bible that grates most harshly on my sensibilities. I don't think I've EVER met a self professed Christian who complies with this. Until I find a group who practice what they preach I will remain unaligned with any church or church hierarchy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 10 - 01:13 AM Kat, would you listen to anybody who told you either to use or not to use condoms? I think the fact of the matter is, you would not follow that person's advice unless you agreed with that advice. Do you think adult "Catholics in South America and other (third world) countries" are so primitive and so stupid and so inferior to you, that they cannot make their own decisions? Most Catholics don't even know what the Pope says on most issues. In my 2,500-member Catholic parish, it's quite likely that nobody, not even the priest, has read more about what the Pope says than I do. My pastor sometimes tells people, "Ask Joe, he's the theologian." If the Pope practices mind control, he does it very inefficiently. Naemanson, my pastor is an alcoholic and he's paranoid, and he's incompetent in many ways. On the other hand, he does very well at the things you'd expect a priest to do, like showing compassion when visiting the sick or hearing confessions, and putting his heart into celebrating Mass. I show him respect for the things he does well, and I'm very hard on him about the things he doesn't do well. I've known him for thirty years, and I play hardball with priests - I expect them to live up to high standards. And because of that he feels threatened by me, so I suppose he has good reason to hate me. It happens. Priests are human beings. If you expect a church full of human beings not to act like human beings, you are deceived. If you expect an institution with over a billion members to be perfect, you are deceived. There are many groups within the Catholic Church that are extraordinarily good, and many that are extraordinarily bad. But I have found that if I stick with it, I can make a profound difference in my parish community. Oh, and Naemanson, the reality is that some (many) church people are extraordinarily good, and some are a pain in the ass. It's up to them to choose who and what they are, and how they behave. That's real life. And yes, Ed T, it would be very nice if the Pope changed the rules and allowed for married and women priests, and you are right that is something I cannot do. But I know lots of Catholic women who are very effective ministers, who have accomplished remarkable things despite the silly Pope and his silly rules. I know other Catholic women who felt called to ministry, so they left the Catholic Church and sought ordination from another denomination. But every organization has laws that need changing. Intelligent people work to get the laws changed, realizing that they are going to have to negotiate with those who don't want the laws changed. That's life. Once again, I ask you all to think realistically about how organizations work, about how things are accomplished by large numbers of people - when people do good things, they do them on a small scale and generally with a fair amount of autonomy. That makes a significant contribution to the larger organization. HOWEVER, it is almost certain that while some parts of a huge organization are doing good things, other parts aren't. So many of you seem to think that when the Pope barks, people are supposed to mindlessly fall in line and do good works - and if they don't, or if the Pope says something that isn't totally wise, then the whole Catholic Church is evil. That is NOT a realistic view of how any human organization works. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:47 AM Naemanson, is it hypocrisy for my pastor to hate me, or is it honesty? My blunt honesty poses a threat to him, and he doesn't know how to respond. How should he feel? He doesn't hate people because of their religion, sexual orientation, or race - he just hates me because he's scared of me.
Naemanson, do I hear you say that Christians don't follow these commandments, and that you've never met a Christian that follows the Golden Rule? C'mon now! I would venture a guess that most people you know do a pretty good job of following these commandments, whether those people are religious or not. These are basic principles of living, and most civilized people do a pretty good job of following them. Certainly there is hatred in some religious and other groups, and I suppose most people hate somebody sometimes - but I really believe that on the whole, human beings are pretty good folks. Sit down, have a beer with a friend - and when the glass is half empty, fill it up again. Life isn't that bad. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lox Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:03 AM . Could this illustrate Fry's point? .... Star Wars ... A New Pope ... . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM Do you think adult "Catholics in South America and other (third world) countries" are so primitive and so stupid and so inferior to you, that they cannot make their own decisions? Nice wording there, Joe! But hardly surprising given that the RC Church actively promotes such stupidity in its followers, especially those without the benefits of a Western Higher Education (like yourself) who are able to pick & choose which of its absurd doctrines to believe in or not, as is the case with most Roman Catholics of my acquaintance - but they're not the ones dying of AIDS havbing taken the church at its word, or dying in fields having delivered themselves of an unwanted baby, or clamouring around Medjugorge waiting to hear the latest enlightened insights of the BVM, or undergoing a life time of counselling because their priest couldn't keep his hands to himself. These people are in no way inferior, Joe - but they are the unfortunate ones who take the RCC at its literal word and must suffer as a consequence of its rancid promotions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 10 - 08:38 AM The assumption that without "Western Higher Education" people are incapable of thinking for themselves and making judgments and choices for themselves is somewhat questionable. It isn't too far removed from a mindset which thinks in terms of "those poor ignorant savages". Equally questionable is the assumption that people anywhere who are on the point of shagging each other in a situation seen as out of bounds by Catholic teaching are too likely to be thinking along the lines "Here we go - but at least we aren't using a condom, because Catholics aren't supposed to use them, so that's all right". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM Formally educated to a high degree or not, I submit that it is not too difficult to find many people in many parts of the world (but, maybe not in Joe's local parish or world) who are not heavily influenced by teaching of the RC church and proclamations of it's Roman leader(s). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM If most of the people in this life listened to JOE it would be a better place to live I think |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM Some talk the talk, Joe is one person who walks the walk .. I am a fan my only complaint is he does post his music for other to listen to HINT HINT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:04 AM Sorry to disappoint you, olddude, but like the rest of us Joe is only too human. He may have the power of Life & Death on Mudcat, and weilds his sword from on high with terrible consequence, but when he appears in the flesh (in threads such this) his message (and bias) is as subjectively flawed as any other - perhaps a little more so because so many around here believe him to be infallible, himself included at times... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:12 AM Further aggressive Roman Catholic Stupidity in Direct Violation of the First Amendment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z0wezHBvyY&feature=fvw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: katlaughing Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM Kat, would you listen to anybody who told you either to use or not to use condoms? I think the fact of the matter is, you would not follow that person's advice unless you agreed with that advice. Do you think adult "Catholics in South America and other (third world) countries" are so primitive and so stupid and so inferior to you, that they cannot make their own decisions? There is a direct correlation between poverty, lack of education, and population growth, Joe. To compare someone such as myself, or my Catholic sisters-in-law who live in a fairly liberated and educated society to someone who lives in a third world country in extreme poverty and dominated by a patriarchal society is disingenuous. Lack of education does not denote "stupidity" nor does it mean "primitive" as you well know, yet you try to put those words in my mouth. Lack of education may mean a woman does not know about contraception OR does not have access to it or know where to find it, esp. if she is dominated by the men in her life: father, husband, brothers, religious leaders and may have little contact with the outside world, i.e. no internet or other media available which may present information and different views on life. Do the research, Joe. There are plenty of websites which will make the connections for you and, it is not just the RCC, it is also other male-dominated religions...take a look at statistics for countries in the Middle East, for instance. It has been shown that when women are better educated about birth control, economics, etc. the population growth slows and, yes, they say "no," even if it's just silently to themselves, to the Pope, their priest, whomever, when it comes to their rights over their bodies. Remember when the shrub was in office and he and the GOP-dominated congress made it illegal for any agency to send aid to another country which included any information on contraception, including condoms to prevent AIDS? The RCC and other leading religions did nothing to oppose that. As a consequence, in Africa, where condoms were hard to come by, both economically and literally, whole generations of people have died of AIDS, leaving orphans in their wake. Yet, the "official" line from the old men who have no fear of getting someone pregnant, no fear of what they will eat and feed the children each day, no fear of a stronger, bigger person dictating to them what they can and cannot do with their bodies, it is a SIN to use a condom. Yep, members of the RCC like you and my in-laws pick and choose which tenets to follow, but that is a luxury of the country you live in, Joe. I am NOT attacking individuals of the RCC no more than Stephen Fry, except to call you on some of your assertions. BUT, yes, I certainly DO attack and blame the LEADERS of any religion who advocate keeping women in a state of poverty whether it is economic/spiritual/moral/and/or educational. There are no good excuses for such in today's world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Wesley S Date: 24 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM "Further aggressive Roman Catholic Stupidity in Direct Violation of the First Amendment:" Suibhne Astray - Please explain how the First Amendment has been violated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 01:39 PM "If most of the people in this life listened to JOE, it would be a better place to live I think" I will dare to go farther with that thought: If most of the people in this life listened to JOE, and lived in a semi-rural area outside Sacramento, not in conditions in the third world (England excluded), the world would be a better place to live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 24 Sep 10 - 01:52 PM I take it back, Joe just yelled at me for making too many threads. Don't listen to him .. I plead with you .. don't listen to JOE ... LOL teasing |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM I found the material below interesting, the writer came from inside the RC church. I especially found the 1993 lecture interesting, "Sex and the Catholic Church:Where did we go Wrong" by A.W. Richard Sipe. It is in the second link, scroll down to the bottom, and click on the last lecture. It is from a lecture in 1993....maybe little has changed? http://www.richardsipe.com/Media/2010-06-02-ncr.htm Sex and the Catholic Church: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM Please explain how the First Amendment has been violated. Church & state separation; religious freedoms etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:24 PM I'm sorry, but all this crap about the Catholic Church and condoms is a red herring. If you can provide proof that there is a significant transfer of disease between married couples who are faithful to each other, THEN you may have a point. The Catholic Church preaches marital fidelity, and it preaches it very strongly. It also opposes artificial forms of birth control, including the use of condoms. HOWEVER, the birth control issue is secondary to marital fidelity, and it is rarely preached from the pulpit. Some dioceses do require couples to attend "natural family planning" classes before marriage, and they do give a detailed explanation of the Church's position on birth control in those classes. And as I have said before, I disagree with the Catholic Church's position on birth control and several other issues. I do not believe that my membership in the Catholic Church precludes my right to have my own opinions and think my own thoughts. However, as a catechist, I do not teach anything contrary to Catholic teaching in religious education classes - I just don't teach on the subject of family planning, and leave that job to others. I don't teach anything that's contrary to Catholic teaching, and I don't teach anything that is contrary to my own beliefs. I have often expressed my thoughts on this issue to other Catholics, but not when I'm teaching. But yes, I do think the Catholic Church needs to do a lot of re-thinking on its teachings about sexual matters. On the other hand, I fully agree with the idea of marital fidelity, and I think it is essential for a healthy family life. But back to the condom thing. If the primary teaching is marital fidelity and the birth control thing is secondary and subordinate to that, why would people slavishly obey the subordinate teaching on condoms and ignore the primary teaching on marital fidelity? How stupid do you think people are? If you can prove that there is significant transfer of disease between monogamous, faithful married couples, then you may have a point that it would be nice for the Pope to distribute condoms. Otherwise, your ravings about the dire consequences of the Pope's condemnation of condoms, are quite ridiculous. Also, I would suggest that it would be nice if somebody would provide evidence that significant numbers of third-world people are avoiding the use of condoms in extramarital sex because of the Pope's statements. It just doesn't make sense. If you think the Pope's condemnation of condoms makes a difference, prove it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM The Pope tacitly supports Koch brothers tax cuts so that he and his Republican allies can posture and be seen to be doing something about abortion. Apparently it is not enough for him to tell his 1.2 billion that it is wrong. He must enter into Caesar's realm and attempt to impose his values on others. But there is no violation of the second amendment even in that. The prohibition is against state established religion. It is not against religion petitioning the State. Of course the Church has been overly political since it was made state religion of the Roman Empire 1600 years ago. One has to believe that once a bad habit has had even its 100th birthday it is very difficult to break. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:40 PM Wait a minute. What are these "Koch brothers tax cuts," and how does the Pope support them? First time I've ever heard of the Pope taking a position on taxes. That sounds absolutely preposterous. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:57 PM The Catholic Church supports the Republicans nearly across the board because of their posturing on abortion. I think that threats against Catholic candidates was a major reason that Kerry lost in 2004 and are a major cause of the failure of the progressive agenda. Or for that matter abortion is a wedge issue causing millions to vote against their own interests and even against the log term economic health of the country. I don't feel that The Pope or his bishops should be attacking one government evil while remaining silent on others. It seems they have made a deal with the devil. From the point of view of an outsider who knows a little bit about the history of the Church, it looks like the age old pattern of suckling up to wealth and power. The Koch's in may ways ARE the Republican agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Wesley S Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:27 PM "Please explain how the First Amendment has been violated." "Church & state separation; religious freedoms etc." I already know what the first amendment is. What I want to know is how it's been violated. You haven't answered the question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:42 PM Jack, you're really stretching things to bring in the Koch Brothers. It's clear that American Catholics are no longer overwhelmingly Democratic in their voting, but I think that's largely due to the fact that Catholics have moved into higher income brackets and have become more concerned about preserving their personal wealth (not that I agree with that). the "intelligentsia" in the Catholic Church are still solidly liberal, especially those who were educated in Catholic universities. It's interesting to see how many pro-choice, liberal Catholic Democrats hold seats in the House and Senate. Yes, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, but there's a snowball's chance in hell that any bishop or Pope is going to get her to abandon her pro-choice position. Catholic bishops are overwhelmingly opposed to abortion, but most are very liberal on issues such as immigration, opposition to warfare, and services to the poor. But to bring in the Koch Brothers? C'mon!!! Get real. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM March 18, 2009 As Director of Public Information for the World Health Organization, at their headquarters in Geneva, in the 1980's, I sat with our Director General, Halfdan Mahler, a Danish physician with 30 years of experience ministering to the poor in India, as he debated a Catholic theologian on the use of contraceptives to combat sexually-transmitted disease. to Rome's demand for abstinence and monogamy, he asked why poor, uneducated workers, often separated for months from their families, should be expected to observe rules of moral behavior difficult for those of us to attain! The Pope's transfer of the burden of abstinence to the world's poorest citizens is at best foolish. Why should the poor be denied the least gratification? Charles Morrow Director of Public Information (retired) World Health Organization, Geneva, Switzerland (from Ottawa Citizen web comments) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:55 PM Fine, Ed. But if people disobey the Pope and have sex outside of marriage, why should they obey the Pope about the use of condoms? There is no logical connection, none at all. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:00 PM Pelosi visits the Vatican, the Vatican issues a statement saying, in effect that she should be writing laws against abortion. When Bishops were calling for not giving Kerry communion because he was not anti abortion, where was the Pope saying. "Do not get involved in local politics." Where were the Bishops refusing communion to war mongers? Where were Bishops saying, "Kerry, come take communion here. You have a secular job to do. You are fighting for the poor. Your values are no worse than that of the Republicans." You want to know where they were? I would say, "Follow the money." What Pelosi is doing is AGAINST the expressed wishes of the Pope and the Church. Catholics are wonderful people in general. The politics of the upper reaches of the Church, in my opinion, not so pretty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM In Africa the Pope more or less said that Condoms make the AIDS problem worse. That's not true. He knows better. He lied. He bore false witness. If what Joe is saying is true, that people don't actually listen to the Pope, then he bore false witness for no good reason, which is only slightly worse than bearing false witness to protect people from some supposed greater evil. Even the Pope doesn't get to ignore commandments at his whim. If anyone in the Church needs to lead by example, it should be him. There is no moral ethical or other reason why the Pope can't say "The only prevention of AIDS we endorse is Abstinence." But if you fall into temptation, It is better you use a condom and significantly decrease the probability of bringing AIDS home to your family. Likewise he could say. We are against drunkenness. But if you must drink. Don't compound the harm of the sin by driving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:24 PM Oy, Jack. Take a logic class. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:03 PM I doubt if the Pope has ever heard of those Koch blokes, whoever they are. The world is a big place, and the USA is just one country among many. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:18 PM "But if people disobey the Pope and have sex outside of marriage, why should they obey the Pope about the use of condoms? There is no logical connection, none at all" Joe, Yes, you have your local belief that all, or at least most, RC people you know (I suspect USA folks) disobey the Pope, or that he has no or minimal influence on their lives (that you have more). That being well stated, where is the research proof behind your broad conclusion, that you seem to claim to be logic or common knowledge, that people in third world countries, for example RCs in Africa, are not influenced by statements by the head of the RC church, let's say on condom use Provide such research citations please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:21 PM Joe O Please groundtruth your definition of logic when you refer to statements other make with and that what you have stated....you simply cannot have it both ways. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM The evils of condoms...it's like swimming with your socks on. Some RC Bishops on Condoms http://allafrica.com/stories/200903200808.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:09 PM ...statements other make with and that what you have stated. ????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lox Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM Folks, I am not expressing my view here, But I would like to clarify Joes argument as it doesn't seem to be getting through to people. here it is in a nutshell. 1. Pope says no sex outside marriage. 2. catholics do it despite beng told not to. OK - so catholics are disobeying the popes order. then: 1. Pope says no condoms. 2. Catholics all do exactly as they are told and ride bareback. As you can see, there is an inconsistency above. If the reason the third world doesn't use condoms is because the pope told them not to, then how come they don't abstain from sex outside marriage because the pope tld them not to? Joe doesn't ned to provide evidence for pointing out a logical fallacy. His evidence is the logical fallacy. Whether I agree with Joe that the pope does not influence catholics when it comes to the use of condoms is another matter entirely. I will not give my view here as that was not the purpose of my post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:18 PM OK, McGrath of Harlow you are right...this makes more sense: "Please groundtruth your definition of logic, when you refer to statements others make with those you have made....you simply cannot have it both ways". Explanation: Joe O has accused another poster of not making logical statements. Yet, the logic in many of his statements, reasoning and conclusions is often lacking. I was asking Joe O to subject some of his own posts and theories to a logic test. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:40 PM Perhaps this verse from Tom Lehrer's "Irish Ballad" might help Ed T grasp the logic of the point Joe and myself were making in regard to condoms: And when at last the police came by Sing rickety tickety tin And when at last the police came by Her little pranks she did not deny To do so she would have had to lie And lying she knew was a sin, a sin And lying she knew was a sin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:34 PM Joe O, Consider the benefit from considering the benefits of logic, when making a sound case. Here is one site that exposes some of the practices of fallacy...and some can even be found in posts here: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ Notable (and recent) examples include an appeal to authority (I have many USA positions in the RCC, so therefore I am an authority on RC matters, even in the third world). Another example of a potential fallacy (illogical conclusion) is: some RC people, for an example in some areas of the USA, ignore some of the RC leader(s) advice/direction on birth control, thus all people (for example, in Africa, and South America), ignore the same RC leader(s) advice/direction on condom use, to help avoid HIV. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 24 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM Ok, I came from a devout Catholic family. I can tell you with certainty that there are those who will follow the pope's ruling if he told them to jump off a building. I know many fundamentalist denominations that will follow their leaders the same way. So the view of condom use etc ... is destructive IMO ... period .. However, Joe is correct that most Catholic's are less concerned with the churches view of anything and will ignore what he or anyone else says unless it makes sense to them as individuals. Those people I think , like myself are there for God and don't really follow the x's or y's of the church .. or any church for that matter. I do however think that it cannot be understated the hold the Church has on many people ... I am sorry to say that but I have seen it too often .. I will also say that is true for people in other churches Mormon , or Baptist ect .. it is all about the mindset of the person. Some people are more free thinkers than others in regard to church ruling ... what they all have in common however is Christ's teachings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 10 - 08:28 PM The thing is, I can't ever recall any ruling from the pope saying sex outside marriage is just fine, just so long as you don't wear a condom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: frogprince Date: 24 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM If the Pope tells people not to drink water, despite the fact that they are thirsty, not many of them are going to obey him, no matter how indoctrinated they are. If he tells them that their local water is unhealthy, and that they should filter it before drinking it, a fair share of them will probably take his advice. If the local people have very limited education, and the Pope tells them that filtering their water before drinking it will increase their risk of deadly illness, a fair share of them will probably take his advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: katlaughing Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:16 PM Just some information from HERE. Though it is from 1991, there is still validity in its findings, imo: Extramarital relations and perceptions of HIV/AIDS in Nigeria* Uche C. Isiugo-Abanihe Department of Sociology, University of Ibadan, Ibadan, Nigeria The incidence of extramarital relations varies widely with religion, with Roman Catholics, Muslims, and members of indigenous religions being more likely to be unfaithful, and Protestants and Pentecostals being less likely. People with less education are somewhat more prone to having extramarital relations, but the results are not very firm, especially with respect to the most recent extramarital episode. Among men, in contrast, Catholics are about 79 per cent more likely than Muslims to have had an extramarital affair in the previous week, while members of the indigenous religions are about 49 per cent more likely. It is clear from these results that many Christians, especially Catholics, fail to follow the teachings of their religion regarding marital fidelity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Naemanson Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:30 PM Joe, you are right, of course. Religious people are only human and cannot practice what they preach. I just want them to keep their hypocrisy to themselves and not splatter it all over the TV and newspapers. I want to remind you that my comments were non-denominational. They could be seen as applying to all religions as well but Christians make such a big point of worshiping the Prince of Peace. One last comment. I spent the last three years teaching in a Catholic high school. I was reprimanded because I stopped one child from hitting another child. Apparently we were not supposed to teach non-violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM One last comment. I spent the last three years teaching in a Catholic high school. I was reprimanded because I stopped one child from hitting another child. Apparently we were not supposed to teach non-violence. Naemanson, I think there's something more to the story that you did not know yourself. I would think there must have been a misunderstanding in there somewhere. Catholic schools do not reprimand teachers for stopping fights or teaching non-violence. That just wouldn't make sense. Perhaps the person who gave you the reprimand did not fully understand what was going on, or perhaps that person questioned your method of stopping the fight. I'm sorry you've experienced so much hypocrisy lately. I guess it comes in spurts. I don't see much of it myself. I think most people do what they believe is right most of the time, although they may fail every once in a while. If they fail every once in a while, does that necessarily mean that whatever they have to say is invalid? And if they're wrong in some things, does that mean they're wrong in everything? Ed T, take a look at the message from Lox, 24 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM. It's a pretty good explanation of my logic. Keep in mind that marital fidelity is a primary teaching of the Catholic Church, something of far more importance than the teachings on birth control. You will hear marital fidelity preached from the pulpit, quite frequently. The teachings on birth control, while still Catholic teaching, are subordinate to the teaching on marital fidelity. If you do not adhere to the primary teaching, it makes no sense to follow the teaching that is subordinate to it. If you want to understand the Catholic teaching on birth control, you can find it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church at the Vatican Website. Note that the prohibition against birth control is discussed only within the context of marriage, and the Catechism does not even mention condoms by name. It considers all forms of birth control (other than abstinence) to be wrong - but this ruling applies only to married couples, because people are not supposed to be having sex outside marriage. Let's take it a little further. It's clear that the Catholic Church is opposed to homosexual sexual relations. Do you think that gay Catholics feel bound by the Catholic prohibition against condoms? And Jack the Sailor, the Pope did not lie about condoms. He did not bear false witness, because he said what he believed on the matter. Some people feel that the availability of birth control encourages promiscuity because people don't have to be afraid of causing the conception of a child. And promiscuity is obviously a cause of the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases. I disagree, because I believe the lack of birth control has an insignificant effect on the deterrence of promiscuity - but you can't expect crotchety old celibate males to understand that. Pope Benedict made a trip to Africa not too many months ago. I do not believe that he made mention of birth control in any of the many speeches and sermons he gave during his trip. What he said was an answer to a question posed to him by a reporter. It was an honest statement about a longstanding church teaching. It was not any kind of campaign against condoms. In fact, I have never heard of a Catholic campaign against condoms. As for those who question my choice not to follow certain teachings of the Catholic Church, let me ask you this: Do YOU feel bound to obey rules that you sincerely believe are wrong, even if those rules might come from a parent or someone else you love and respect? One of the most basic moral teachings of the Catholic Church is that you have to follow your conscience, that you must do what you sincerely believe is right even if the rule says otherwise. An underlying thought seems to be pervasive in this discussion: since the Catholic Church has an incorrect opinion on the subject of birth control, it is therefore evil and has no right to speak about any issue. I disagree. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Sep 10 - 05:01 AM The Vatican's Official Youtube Channel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: mauvepink Date: 25 Sep 10 - 05:55 AM Could it not also be that the Catholic church is opposed to contraception with the underlying belief then that more babies will inevitably be born into Catholic families? More babies = more people to indocrinate into the Catholic religion. Time was, in much of the world, that the Priest may have been the only person that people could turn to to ask about things and read letters, etc, as he was the only educated person within that community. This is not so much the case now and the church is by no means guaranteed a flow of children that simply follow what went before. They now ask questions, have rights and express curiosity about their world. They also make their own minds up. In the 'Western world' the Priest may not have the controls he used to on his congregation. "Putting the fear of Christ" into young minds used to be a sure way of keeping numbers up in the church. Not no more. I think the Catholic church needs to adapt )evolve) faster than it does if it is to keep up and survive in the modern world. Most of the man made rules are simply that: MAN MADE. One wonders if Christ came today, and was accepted, would he have a "Christmobile" (as in Popemobile) to get around and would he be carried in a chair by others? Christ never had such things. It was all he could do to borrow a donkey. Christ would walk among his followers. Perhaps the Roman Catholic church could do worse than to go back to some basics of their Master's Son? Stop talking down to people and acting as judge and jury on so many things. Most Catholics I know, and Priests for that matter, adapt the Pope's words in order to be able to get through their every day life. Those that don't struggle with so much guilt. I even know one Priest that openly admitted that anyone who would turn their back on someone who was LGB or T, was not being Christian. That was after the Popes attack on gay theory last Christmas. Brave Priest. Most people and Priests have to live in the real world. I respect them for that and I respect their faith, just not their earthly 'masters'. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 25 Sep 10 - 09:02 AM I've asked this before. What is the leadership of the RC church..the leader(s) in Rome, who claim to steer the church (and also Christianity) representing Christ through Peter... Each within the flock who claim to be RC,those with many different RC views (some convenient, others not) dedication and practices around the world..The priests and bishops, who claim to represent the church locally. Joe seems to say it's the individual and the flock, and the rest don't mean much. If so, is that state sustainable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: mauvepink Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:22 AM Ed asks "The priests and bishops, who claim to represent the church locally. Joe seems to say it's the individual and the flock, and the rest don't mean much. If so, is that state sustainable? " Am not sure, but it seems to work that way better. I thik if it was not for those 'on the shop floor', so to speak, adapting and interpreting on an individual level then is could be less sustaianable. They would watch their flock walk away otherwise. Of course not all Priests are flexible but then see what happens to them and their congregation. Whilst some RC people are still in fear of the Priest - more than God themself in some ways - I think it is less prevalent these days. Like other Christian churches, Roman Catholics are no different in individual padres living in the real world and actually being more Christian than the faith itself appears to allow. In other words, just because the Pope is supposedly infallible does not mean all see him like that. What issues from his mouth, if seemingly un-Christian, they work around it to try and keep their congregants on a right path. Some will say this does not happen. I have witnessed, and have some personal experience, that it does. There are some good Priests out there who see beyond the rehetoric and dogma mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: katlaughing Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:44 AM An underlying thought seems to be pervasive in this discussion: since the Catholic Church has an incorrect opinion on the subject of birth control, it is therefore evil and has no right to speak about any issue. I disagree. While I don't remember anyone saying the RCC was "evil" or had no right to speak about "any issue," I disagree also, Joe. The RCC has a right to speak out on any issue. What is damning, imo, is its lack of speaking out on certain issues, esp. a woman's right over her own body. And, for the record, the RCC has spoken out plenty against condoms, actually using *that* word: From HERE in 2009: YAOUNDE, Cameroon — Pope Benedict XVI said condoms are not the answer to the AIDS epidemic in Africa and can make the problem worse, setting off criticism Tuesday as he began a weeklong trip to the continent where some 22 million people are living with HIV. and: The late Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo made headlines in 2003 for saying that condoms may help spread AIDS through a false sense of security, claiming they weren't effective in blocking transmission of the virus. The cardinal, who died last year, headed the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family. I know there are priests and nuns who minister to their parishes and do NOT follow what the Pope has said, but Catholicism is growing the fastest in Africa and there needs to be clear leadership from the Pope on down on the issue of condoms regardless of anything else they may teach. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:52 AM mauvepink It does seem to work now, at least at some level. But, I suspect that (among other issues, like sexual abuse) could have had an impact on fewer RCs in the west? But, will it work with the next generation, and the next....who may not have the same type of "imbedded" RC grounding from the past, when the central RC church dogma seemed more pertinent and followed? What will the impact of a closer association with others be...like the Anglicans, Orthodox cathlic churches and possibly the Lutherans... with different interpretations of the church, faith and issues? This pope seems to lean towards less local freedom to interpret and practice central church dogma and a tightening, rather than a loosening from the center (IMO. except financially, where there is a lawsuit). But, possibly his future successor may swing yet another way, by necessity or conviction (likely the latter)? The local church does good charity work. But, so does other groups, some religiously affiliated, some less so. I suspect that this popes travels, and the spreading of his personal message (on behalf of Peter), those that are at times at odds with the personal beliefs and practices of many in the the congregation does not make for a stronger Global church. But, this is just speculation on my part. But, maybe there is a logical Rome master plan behind it all. I certainly feel that reaching out to a dialogue with other churches is progressive... after centuaries of division. Strategically so, if traditional growth seems to be on the decline. Hopefully, the person he put in charge of that, who seems to be doing a good job, did not discredit himself (internally and externally) with the unfortunate "third world" remark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:02 AM
That's an argument that has been posed many times. I suppose it could be so, but the Catholic Church is not a particularly evangelical religion. It hasn't been interested in aggressive recruiting for at least the last forty years. What it says in the Catechism is that the "marriage act" should be open to the conception of children, because that is an inherent part of the sacredness of the "marriage act." With a billion mermbers, does any church need more? From classes in Church History, it is my understanding that the development of the "cult of the Pope" is relatively new, mostly since the loss of the Papal States when Italy became a nation in the 1870s. Before that, the Pople was looked upon as just another petty European political leader, with some spiritual functions. But since the Pope ceased to be a significant political power (and since the advent of worldwide communications), many Catholics began to look to Rome for leadership, sometimes ignoring their own pastors and bishops and going to the top for direction. And oftentimes, people follow their own interpretation of what Rome has to say, which may or may not have any connection to reality. Most Catholic Church documents are very carefully nuanced and reasoned, and presented with great diplomacy. Right-wing pope-followers tend to dumb down anything said by the Vatican, so it can be contained in sound bites. Mother Angelica's Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN) is a prime offender in the U.S. There is a careful system of division of authority in the Catholic Church. In most situations, the local bishop is the final authority. The Pope, as Bishop of Rome," is "primus inter pares" (first among equals among the bishops. The Pope is also officially "primus inter pares" among the patriarchs. Although the patriarchs of the Orthodox churches are separated from Rome, there is still formal respect among the patriarchs. And in most circumstances, the pastor is the final authority in the local parish, and almost all Catholic functions are centered in the parish, not beyond. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: mauvepink Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM Ed said "What will the impact of a closer association with others be...like the Anglicans, Orthodox cathlic churches and possibly the Lutherans... with different interpretations of the church, faith and issues?" My opinion, for what it is worth, is that for the Christian faith to survive it will need more unification rather than splitting up. They need to combine and literally be "singing off the same hymn sheet" if they are to volve into one body. Christ never spoke of there being many churches: just the one. It is what happened after he died, and was ressurected, that seems to mean more now to those in power. More weight seems to be given to the rest of the new testament over the four Gospels. For me, if I were a Christian, what would be most important, is for me to follow Jesus, not those that came after him. Jesus gave all the rules that needed to be followed. It seems other men - mortals - have added their own bits and bobs over time. I could be very wrong. That is why I am not part of any particular religious group. My agnosticism leans toward Christ's words when I look for something spiritual. I have always had a hard time going along with most the rest of it. I am not an expert. My comments above, and below, are based soley on my own observations and experiences as I have wended my way through the years. The only thing I am certain about is my uncertainty. Nevertheless. I do know there are good men and women out their who try and adhere to Christs teaching, whilst still part of a larger Christian church, and that I have been priveliged to meet many good Roman Catholics of all flavours who have lived by Christ's words rather than the Popes. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:35 AM The trouble with the original proposition that Stephen was debating i.e. "Is the Catholic Church a force for good" is that it is a force for some good. But, of course, Hitler was a force for some good in as much as he rebuilt the German economy in the 30s but... And the "but" factor really kicks in with the Catholic Church. For example, my head was definitely screwed up by a Catholic education and their "hell fire" threats. When I was 11, I was told by a teacher that if a I deliberately missed mass on Sunday, and was then knocked down and killed on Monday, my soul would go straight to hell! Now, I would be interested to know if that would constitute child abuse today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM I have seen a lot of beautiful things in the Catholic Church growing up. And likewise seen some things that could really screw a person up. I could go on an on about my grade school Catholic education but I won't. I can't resist this story however to make you laugh: "In 6th grade the nun came in one morning and said that if us guys ever touched our bodies in the wrong place we would go to hell" .. so at recess (bathroom break) you had 20 6th grade boys standing in line at the urinals trying to pee without touching their 'thingy' cause they didn't want to go to hell .. LOL absolutely true story ... anyway, what both sides are saying is true to an extent and not true to an extent. I don't defend them, I don't throw rocks at them, I accept that they are run by people and they will have what people have. Mainly the good and the bad that is within all .. I want to see problems addressed openly, steps taken to correct the issues. I want to see people jailed who broke the law. I also want to see those that do so much good get the recognition they deserve also. There are a lot more Mother Teresa's out there then we know doing work for God and showing the love and compassion that is expected by such calling. Sadly like anything else, we only hear the bad. In order to be better, to grow, you have to accept the faults and correct them. Not hide and deny .. I see cover ups that took place and only when one accepts the wrong, takes measures to change, can the good come out. Sadly for too many years the sins of the church have been silenced by pay offs to the victims or transfers of priests to other parishes ect .. It is time to change, admit the failing and get back to God's work only. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM Joe, Monsieur La Pope will forevermore be known to me as The Pople. ;0) You know, I really think that all those cardinals should just go and get themselves laid...same with the nuns...then they'd all realise what they'd been missing for so long and have the holy books changed in an instant! I remember a very glamourous woman coming in to my office in Harley St, many moons ago. We're talking Joanna Lumley Gorgeous, here, dripping in elegance and highly expensive clothes. I commented on how lovely she looked and she grinned. Then she told me it was her way of 'getting her own back' on the nuns who'd done so much damage to she and her friends when they were growing up. She told us how the girls hadn't even been able to take a bath without wearing a gown that covered them from shoulders to ankles, because to view your body was bordering on evil. So taking great care of herself, loving her body, loving the way she looked was her 'two fingers' back at 'em... These people are seriously nuts. Sorry, Joe, but someone has to say it. They've all got so many hang ups that they'd keep thousands of psychiatrists busy for eternity... I mean, where the hell did all this weird stuff come from in the first place? The good people in any church are very good...and the bad are more bad than many folks inside our jails, but for some reason they're allowed to be out there in charge of children and adults alike...screwing up their minds and souls, often their whole life long. And tell me, how many Catholics who've left the fold, return to it, shortly before they know death is coming, just 'to be on the safe side'... Terrible terrible things have been told to children in the name of many religions, for no other reason than control, power and absolutely shitty cruelty. What goes in to a young child's mind, repeatedly, at such an early age, stays there. It takes a strong adult to be able to release his/her inner, damaged child from all the crappy things said 'in the name of God'.. If I was Pope-ess, and I was the head of a church run entirely by women who preached to little children that staring, feeling, fondling or simply loving your body, or letting someone else do all of the above, was downright evil, it would be shut down immediately and the majority of men, in particular, would write me, and my fellow religious maidens off..for life. Whoever first decided that nuns and priests should show God how deep their love for him was, by giving up one of the most wondrous and loving things on the planet, was completely off his rocker and had the biggest hang up going..(no jokes, please, boys) I *am* with the pople inasmuch as soooooo do not like all this rampant sex with any Tom, Dick or Harriet that's going on around the planet, with no need for there to be love thrown in there somewhere..and yes, in that respect, condoms, and the Pill, have wrought havoc on what was once regarded as something very special... I strongly think that Love should replace Sex again...Everyone's 'having sex' but so few are 'making love' any longer..and it's desensitising to the point where something so beautiful has become nothing more than a physical act where, hey, you don't even have to ask each other's name when it's all over..just pack up yer condom and go... I mean???????? Anyway, I'll leave the jokes to start flowing now..and go back to my naughty step..Gawd, I get bored sitting on the naughty step.. ;0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:29 PM Bad Lizzie, Bad Bad .. Lizzie ... go to your room LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM ...for the Christian faith to survive it will need more unification rather than splitting up.. The word "Catholic",meaning "universal" reflects the fact that this has always been, and continues to be the aspiration - not too successful much of the time. But the fact remains that the Catholic Church does include by far more of the world's Christians than all other denominations put together. It's mainstream Christianity - warts and all. Like anything human it's imperfect, and needs constant fixing and adjusting. Sometimes the fixing and adjusting isn't done too well, and re-fixing and re-adjusting is needed, time after time. I'm reminded of the stuff Obama said about America aspiring to build "a more perfect union". Same thinking really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:08 PM Right on Mcgrath!! well said |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:59 PM Never trust a man who wears red slippers.. ;0) I think, as well as allowing priests and nuns to fall in love AND be able to do something about it, they should also give all their wealth away to the very poorest of their people. That would be a very Holy thing to do....and...it would make God smile. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM Stephen Fry - Isn't it bad enough, without arse bandits like yourself critising the problems of an age old Christian religion? Stephen Fry should read Lizzie's post. I agree wholehartedly that the Catholic Church should allow Priests and Nuns to have sex, as, the suppression of such human instincts is mentally ,and physically, unhealthy . It is completely unnatural for adults to engage in such denial and abstinence. Nice to see we can all have a view and discussion on this particular religion, no doubt Mr Fry is not going to expound or impart his views on the Jewish or Muslim religion behaviour and their particular peculiarities and suppression of females, - perhaps not ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: mg Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:01 AM I absolutely think that the church's crazy dogma on birth control is a wish to outbreed other religions for one thing, and a response to the potato famine on another, to replace lives that were lost, regardless of the cost to the impoverished living. There was so much cruelty related to that, and not a one, priest or nun, ever said I am sorry it has to be this way, I realize a lot of pain comes from this but after all it is God's will. Not a one I ever heard. I truly think they thought it was God's will though, as come to us through crazy men in the deserts of Palestine..oops holy men but if we saw them now we would hospitalize them and they have run our lives. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:44 AM Well, I spent most of the last 48 hours with my boss, Sister Judy, who has been a nun for 50 years now. She taught math in a Catholic high school for a number of years, and has worked for the poor for about the last 25 years. Her previous job was at the Loaves and Fishes Dining Room in Sacramento, where she supervised a gathering place for homeless people who were waiting to have lunch. She took two years off that job to work with refugees from the conflict in Rwanda. For about the last five years, she's been director of the women's respite and hospitality center where I do volunteer work, and we have become great friends. Judy loves men, and she's a great flirt (and I flirt back, quite outrageously). She once went to Holland for a weekend with a man who needed a "date" at a wedding - I think she likes to tell the story because of the somewhat scandalous implications of the trip.... Her vacation this year was to drive to Massachusetts to attend the wedding of some lesbian friends, one a former nun. There were several nuns in attendance at the wedding - don't tell the Vatican. They went to the wedding because they loved the people who were getting married, not because of any particular agenda. Judy spends her time caring for people. Currently, it's Frances and George, a couple who are seriously ill and unable to care for themselves. Judy has known them for years. Now that they're incapacitated, Judy calls them every day and visits several times a week. Before George and Frances, Judy was watching out for her own sister, who was dying of cancer. A few months ago, Judy gave me a tour of the Loaves and Fishes dining room, where she used to work. The homeless people treated her as a well-loved celebrity. Many homeless men came up and kissed her - on the lips. I'm not sure a woman could have a husband and family, and do what Judy does. Her "family" is her religious order, and she has many close friendships within the order that have lasted fifty years. Her religious community is a true "sisterhood." The other nun on our staff, Sister Jane, entered the order 48 years ago, and Judy was Jane's "big sister" when Jane entered. They've been close friends ever since, and it's lovely to listen to their (somewhat earthy) banter. So, today, Judy and I were painting the interior of the women's center, and we had a wonderful time. I did the planning and prep work for our five volunteers from a labor union, and Judy made them feel important. I had thought it would take fifteen people to do the work we did today, but Judy has a way of making people feel like they can do anything they put their minds to. Jane and Judy chose not to get married - celibacy is an integral part of life in a religious community. There are some religious communities like Taize and I believe the Iona Community that welcome non-celibate persons or couples, but that's a new development. Another new development is the addition of Associate members of religious orders. Associates do not take the usual vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, but they do participate in the ministry and work of the religious orders. In about twelve hours, I will become an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy. My wife teases that I'm becoming a nun, but it's not quite that. Still, it's nice to associate myself with such a wonderful community of women. Spaw has always called me "Fr. Joebro." Maybe that's not the appropriate term anymore.... My experience is that the nuns are the only part of the Catholic Church that aren't screwed up. I've worked with nuns all my life. Generally, I've found them to be extraordinary people. There are a few nuns that are screwed up, but not many. Most are doing exactly what they want to be doing, most often something extraordinary. And they are unbelievably happy doing what they're doing. They serve as centers of joy and wisdom wherever they are. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:59 AM GUEST Betsy ~~ Your use of the vulgar and dismissive phrase "arse bandit" in connection with Stephen Fry ~~ as if his particular, perfectly legal and far from unusual, sexual orientation disqualifies him from holding views on the subject under discussion ~~ is beneath contempt. Why should he be prevented from fulfilling his sexual needs and instincts, whatever they are provided there is no non-consensual element involved, any more than the nuns & priests whose rights in this connection you appear to espouse? You should be ashamed of yourself for such a formulation~ but I don't expect you are. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:25 AM I hear what you're saying, Joe - I too have known some really nice celibate lesbian nuns, uncelibate heterosexual priests, gay monks & trendy laity etc. etc. but then again I dare say Nazis were really nice people too. After all people aren't the issue here, people are people whatever crap they espouse or believe in. Throw as many smokecreens cas you like, but the issue here is the Institutionalised Promotion of Ignorance, Lies, Murder, Paedophilia, Oppression, Superstition, Hocus-Pocus and Assorted Hoo-Hah that is, and always has been, The Very Unholy Roman Catholic Church and its Universal Mission to Repress and Pacify Humanity to its Rancid and Inhuman Cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM Sorry if my post was a little flippant, but I've heard a few stories of the cruelty of some nuns to young girls. I'm sure Sister Judy would be a suporter of this song, Joe...which to me would be a song that I'm sure Jesus would be happy to sing. And I don't think that Jesus's's's' Dad would want folks to be celibate for *his* sake. Fine if that's how they want to live, many choose that path and that's absolutely fine, but I'm sure that God would not demand that of anyone.... Not the God who has stood beside me throughout my life, at least.. Roy Bailey - 'Everything Possible' 'Everything Possible' by Fred Small "We've cleared off the table, the leftovers saved, Washed the dishes and put them away I have told you a story, tucked you in tight At the end of your knockabout day ...As the moon sets its sails to carry you to sleep Over the midnight sea I will sing you a song no one sang to me May it keep you good company. Oh you can be anybody you want to be, You can love whomever you will You can travel any country where your heart leads And know I will love you still You can live by yourself, you can gather friends around, You can choose one special one And the only measure of your words and your deeds Will be the love you leave behind when you're done. There are girls who grow up strong and bold There are boys quiet and kind Some race on ahead, some follow behind Some go in their own way and time Some women love women, some men love men Some raise children, some never do You can dream all the day never reaching the end Of everything possible for you. Don't be rattled by names, by taunts, by games But seek out spirits true If you give your friends the best part of yourself They will give the same back to you." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:16 AM May I politely suggest that 'Betsy' reads the words above as well, and takes them into 'her' heart.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:53 AM Great story Joe and generally true I know. As someone said earlier in the thread "there are more Mother Theresas out there than bad ones". But Nun's have not been without blame entirely and there were several incidents and places in Ireland where young children were terribly mistreated and dealth with cruelly. That aside... good luck on becoming a Nun and maybe you will establish a new order? ;-) Most Nuns I have known have been really nice and had an almost 'devilish' sense of fun and humour. ------ Betsy: Are you not aware that a great many gay men asbstain and never practice anal sex? It is also something that not only gay men do. The term "arse bandit" has no place in decent discussion. I'm quite surprised you used it mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM Seems to me that anal sex is practiced on women by a great many heterosexual men these days, isn't it? It strikes me as a strange and unnatural thing to do, given that Nature did not design the anus for that purpose, but I'm strictly speaking for myself when I say that...it's not my business what other people want to do of their own mutual consent in the privacy of their own bedrooms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:49 AM there are more Mother Theresas out there than bad ones Let's sincerely hope not, eh? See Shattering the Myth of Mother Teresa etc. * It strikes me as a strange and unnatural thing to do The wonderful thing about Humanity is that we are, out of necessesity, both STRANGE and UNNATURAL. Trumpets are both STRANGE & UNNATURAL; steam engines, Large Hadron Colliders and TV sets likewise. Do we find 'em growing on trees? I think not! So all our works are STRANGE and UNNATURAL, which is why we're able to talk to each other across the ether on Mudcat, which is a pretty STRANGE and UNNATURAL thing to do too. We are The Transfiguring Alchemists of Nature - able to tranform the mineral deposits of a billion years into the strings on your guitar or the alloys of your penny whistle; we butcher GOATS and chop down TREES just so you can play your BODHRANS. So, by the same token I'd say ANAL SEX is no more STRANGE or UNNATURAL than any other sort of sex. SEX is primarily about PLEASURE; actual PROCREATION is, at best a RANDOM BY-PRODUCT of a procedure which is, nevertheless, the reason why we're on this planet in the first place. And for all you BIBLE FREAKS out there who feel ANAL SEX in ANY CONTEXT is AN ABOMINATION AGAINST THE LORD, or NATURE, then check out SONG OF SONGS, Chapter 5 Verse 4, King James, in which such an act is desbribed with delicious consequence. How SCAT is that? UNNATURAL? Damn right it's UNNATURAL - everything we are is UNNATURAL and for that fact alone let us be truly thankful. Here endeth the lesson. Connubialis Licentia exsisto vobis! Amen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Sep 10 - 11:33 AM Shouting a bit there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 26 Sep 10 - 11:46 AM Read it as gentle emphasis rather than shouting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:59 PM "So, by the same token I'd say ANAL SEX is no more STRANGE or UNNATURAL than any other sort of sex. SEX is primarily about PLEASURE; actual PROCREATION is, at best a RANDOM BY-PRODUCT of a procedure which is, nevertheless, the reason why we're on this planet in the first place. And for all you BIBLE FREAKS out there who feel ANAL SEX in ANY CONTEXT is AN ABOMINATION AGAINST THE LORD, or NATURE, then check out SONG OF SONGS, Chapter 5 Verse 4, King James, in which such an act is desbribed with delicious consequence. How SCAT is that? UNNATURAL? Damn right it's UNNATURAL - everything we are is UNNATURAL and for that fact alone let us be truly thankful." Hmmmmm...well, you speak for yourself, Sunshine. (stone the crows, smiley!) I'm not strange and I'm most certainly *not* unnatural...whatever that may be. Speaking as a woman, I find the idea of anal sex very peculiar, but heck, I'm an old-fashioned-old-gal and I don't believe in letting those with er..slightly (imo) bonkers dispositions tell me that SEX has replaced LOVE or that I should be Made Love to as if I were er....er...um...er...someone from a dodgy movie who spends their Christmas Holipops in an Anne Summers shop. "I'm sorry, dear, you want to do WHAT?....I really think you should go and get yourself a nice cup of tea and calm down, dear." ;0) But heyho, we're all different, thank heavens...and we all have different outlooks, likes and dislikes. Anyone is, of course, free to do whatever they want behind their closed doors. But, bottom line, if you'll excuse the pun, is that the most important thing in life is to feel loved. But, please don't tell me about the private affairs stuff because it's private, between the 2 people concerned, or the 16, or the pig and the camel and the woman down the road. But folks who want to behave thus in a public manner will get the short end of my fuse...not my arse, or any where near it...Just like that bloke did from the Labour Party when I rang up years back to complain about New Labour relaxing the law on funny folks who want to have 'sex' in public toilets...??????? It went something like this: "Oh, you don't like gay people then, madam?" he snarled at me sarcastically. "No, I merely don't approve in any way, **whatsoever** of folks of any gender, age, size, height, race, religion, or planet, having sex in a public toilet, because quite frankly it's horrible and it's creepy, but more than that it's just plain WRONG, in my opinion. And also, I'm the mother of young children and I should be able to feel that they are safe from weird people, doing weird things should they need to use a public toilet at some time. Thank you very much." That shut him up, I can tell ye.. ;0) I mean WHAT the **** has happened to us as a species??????? Anyway, we seen to have digressed a little from the original theme, but really, Sunshine, you are only speaking for yourself there, not for me. Bring back Love and Making Love, say I. Aye! Yours dearly Lizzie Love (with no lace attached) (as opposed to Lizzie Sex Kitten) Thank ooo :0) And I still like Mother Theresa, by the way. Maybe she stopped believing in God because when she gave the money to The Vatican they merely put it in their Banco de Catholico and watched it earn even *more* money so they could buy La Pople In Waiting decades worth of handmade scarlet slippers? Meanwhile, poor Mother T simply had to get on with things, ad infinitum...And maybe she was hoping to save the souls of all the old sods she had to meet? Maybe she was trying, in her own way to convince herself that *no-one* could be *that* evil in their hearts..? It's very easy to write the most appalling things about someone when they're dead and gone, no longer here to answer the accusations from their perspective...There are always two sides to everything you know...... Why, it was only the other day that I read that the Beefeater in the Tower of London Female Bullying Fiasco, the one who lost his house and job because of accusations made against him by the first lady beefeater, has been given a huge apology and around £50,000 in compensation for the loss of his job and home. Beefeater story in The Independant So, who knows what the truth really is with Mother Theresa... She was most certainly loved by a great many people and seemed very far from the evil dragon she's almost portrayed as in that article you posted. And now, back to Stephen Fry and La Pople di Scarletto :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: mg Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:43 PM Well despite our troubles we can still have pretty songs that are pretty much gone now but here is one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNOsaT0A__Y&feature=related |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM Pretty questionable interpretation of that verse in the Song of Songs. A bit akin to assuming, for example, that if someone is described as "a heartbreaker" they must obvously be involved in open-heart surgery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:24 PM I mean WHAT the **** has happened to us as a species??????? Personally, I find the idea of people making each other happy in public toilets a lot less depraved than the sort of inhumane racket Mother Teresa was operating, much less the cloying for Santification that invariably arises at the mention of her name. The passage that always sticks in my mind: On another occasion, Teresa told a terminal cancer patient, who was dying in extreme pain, that he should consider himself fortunate: "You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you." (She freely related his reply, which she seemed not to realize was meant as a putdown: "Then please tell him to stop kissing me.") More depraved than both, however, is the spectacle of Susan Boyle & Daniel O'Donnel singing Our Lady of Knock. Out of common decency, I beg you, not to post links like that again without giving due warning of the sort of deeply offensive horrors they lead to! If I'm in the mood for a spot of the old Marian Devotion (and why not?) I'll listen to something a little more appropriate, something like THIS maybe, which has nice lyrics too: Mary, asylum for the whole world, protect us. Jesus, refuge all of us, hear us. Indeed you are our place of refuge, truly a refuge for the whole world. Jesus, supreme and truthful good. Mary, sweet and most gracious mercy. In the same way you show your pity to us, we who are strongly oppressed by the vanity of life. Mary was the salvation for all, Jesus the redeem for the damned. Fighting ardently for their followers, bearing hard beatings and blows. Shame Susan Boyle can't sing stuff like that... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM Betsy maybe interested to know that Stephen Fry claims (or did a couple of years ago) to be celibate, his only indulgence being "self-pleasuring" s he likes to call it. Joe, you're in a dream world. It is simply farcical to blather on about life in Sacremento when the Catholic church wreaks most of its havoc in deprived communities. The more primitive the society the greater the abuses. You have a peculiar understanding of your own power within the church. If it were anywhere near what you think it is, you would no doubt have righted many of the wrongs before now. As it is, you are merely a pawn for an institution that you yourself seem to regard as pretty much fucked up. no doubt you intend that to sound rebellious, but fucked-up is too feeble a term, implying little worse than incompetence or innocent muddle. You need to find a term that embraces mendacity and exploitation. That's the kind of rebellion your church is crying out for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM There's a saying about that kind of reform. "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater." (As in the song "My baby has gorn down the plughole"...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:38 PM I became an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy today, and it was a wonderful thing to become part of that community. It seems a shame to come back to this crap today. I've worked in the Catholic Church all my life, but Fionn claims I know nothing about the Catholic Church. You MUST be right, Fionn. I'm sure all the blatherings from you and Suibhne are the absolute truth, and all these wonderful people I've worked with are actually horrible and perverted. If you say so, it must be the truth, and my real-life experience is an absolute falsehood. Say, by the way, has either of you actually ever known a nun or a priest in your entire life? When was the last time you even dared to talk with a nun or a priest? I'm sorry, but after a lifetime of membership and work in the Catholic Church, I think what Fionn and Suibne have to say is sheer bigotry. The incidents they cite may be true; but in an organization with a billion members, there's enough anecdotal evidence to prove anything you want to prove. I've studied the Catholic Church all my life, and with a critical eye - so critical that many extremists claim I'm not really Catholic. There's a lot wrong with the Catholic Church, just as there's a lot wrong with every large organization - and yes, Catholics must continue working to right those wrongs. Then again, there's a lot right with the Catholic Church, especially in Third World countries. The Catholic Church has many problems in third world countries, but the Church is also a source of joy and justice for millions of people in impoverished nations. Agencies such as Catholic Relief Services have worked hard to alleviate poverty in Third World nations, with no attempt to convert the recipients of their aid. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:45 AM I'm sure all the blatherings from you and Suibhne are the absolute truth, and all these wonderful people I've worked with are actually horrible and perverted. This isn't about Roman Catholics, it's about Roman Catholicism - two very different things; the Theology is horrible and perverted and as Fry points out acts very much against human interest. Say, by the way, has either of you actually ever known a nun or a priest in your entire life? When was the last time you even dared to talk with a nun or a priest? As I explained earlier I've known some great Roman Catholics from various points of the hierachy - priest, monks, nuns, sundry laity, ordinary punters - but their greatness was very human and did nothing to convince me of the bullshit they believed in otherwise. I'm sorry, but after a lifetime of membership and work in the Catholic Church, I think what Fionn and Suibne have to say is sheer bigotry. I'm not bigoted in the slightest; I take a keen interest in the culture, history & theology of the RCC and it is from this point I am arguing. I am not suggesting we burn all RCs as evil doers, just be wary that, given half a chance, they might burn us as heretics for not buying into their Universal Truth, as they have been wont to do in the past. Don't worry though, I hold all religions in equal contempt, though I might celebrate their more folkloric aspects in terms of culture and history which I do find fascinating on human terms because, ultimately, it's all a bunch of made up shit no matter when it was written, or by whom. I was talking to an RC friend recently who reckoned the wholesale massacre of (say) the Cathars by the RCC was too long ago to worry about, likewise things like THIS and other related atrocities down the years, but she nevertheless wept at the thought of the shedding of one man's blood on the cross some 2,000 years ago. Personally I would think the amount of blood shed in His Name ever since then has rather diluted not just the sacrifice, but the message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM Yes, Joe, I've known and talked to nums and priests, more so in Belfast than here in Bosnia where,as you know, many priests and bishops were complicit in the forcible conversion to catholicism of some 300,000 Orthodox Christians. I think i may have told you I gave my piano to Fr Des Wilson's People's Theatre group in Ballymurphy. Wilson was as decent a guy as you could shake a stick at, but what does that prove about the Catholic church? Incidentally he was a bit of a rebel too. A bit too nationalist for the prevailing tastes of the day, and lost his parish. If 300,000 sounds a lot in a small population, by the way, that's beause it is. That is the kind of scale on which your beloved church (perhaps no more so than some other religions) has blighted innocent lives all over the world. Can't remember who it was who said that thee are good Unbelievers who do good, and good Believers who do good. But for good people to do bad, that takes religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:59 AM I can think of an awful lot of bad things done in the name of politics of one sort or another by people with the most admirable motives, without religion coming into it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:28 AM Likewise I'm sure - the difference being that whilst Nazis and Stalinist alike are universally reviled for the atrocities committed by their respective regimes, the equally bloody-handed Roman Catholic Church is held up as the paragon of benign human charity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM "An underlying thought seems to be pervasive in this discussion: since the Catholic Church has an incorrect opinion on the subject of birth control, it is therefore evil and has no right to speak about any issue. I disagree." That's way too black and white. The Church not only has (in the view of many) an incorrect view on birth control but, twenty times worse, it fairly forcefully propagates that view, and it does so regardless of the state of education or poverty level of the people in many developing countries with big Catholic populations. I abhor that but it still doesn't mean I think the Church shouldn't be free to speak out on other issues. What it does mean is that the Church itself has made it much more difficult for any of its pronouncements on anything to be taken seriously. Its recent outrageous cover-up behaviour has given it even more of an uphill task. The Church hardly needs us cynical outsiders to bring disrepute raining down on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:59 AM Interesting insight into the history of the clerical child abuse scandal in the Catholic Church from today's Irish Times - note the date of the incident. Jim Carroll SAINTHOOD FOR AUSTRALIAN NUN WHO EXPOSED PAEDOPHILE PRIEST PADRAIG COLLINS In Sydney THE FOUNDER of the Sisters of St Joseph, who will be canonised as Australia's first saint next month, was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1871 after exposing a paedophile Irish priest, it has been revealed. Australian television has reported that Sr Mary MacKillop discovered that children were being abused by Fr Patrick Keating in the Kapunda parish near Adelaide in South Australia. She told Josephites director Fr Julian Tenison-Woods about the abuse. It was then reported to the vicar general and Fr Keating was sent back to Ireland, where he continued to serve as a priest. Fr Charles Horan, a Galway man who was a colleague of Fr Keating, swore revenge on Sr MacKillop and her order. After only four years as a nun, she was excommunicated by Adelaide's bishop Laurence Shiel, who was originally from Wexford. She was turned out on the street with no money and nowhere to go. Five months later, though, on his deathbed, Bishop Shiel instructed that Sr MacKillop be absolved and restored. Fr Paul Gardiner, who has advocated for Sr MacKillop's canonisation for 25 years, said Fr Horan had been working for Bishop Shiel and had urged him to break up the Josephites. When Sr MacKillop, who was then aged 29, refused, she was banished from the church. "She submitted to a farcical ceremony where the bishop had... lost it," Fr Gardiner said. "He was a puppet being manipulated by malicious priests. This sounds terrible, but it's true." In 2009,100 years after Sr MacKillop's death, Archbishop Philip Wilson of Adelaide publicly apologised to the Sisters of St Joseph for her wrongful excommunication. "On behalf of myself and the archdiocese, I apologise to the sisters ... for what happened to them in the context of the excommunication, when their lives and their community life was interrupted and they were virtually thrown out on the streets... This was a terrible thing," he said. After being reinstated by the Catholic Church, Sr MacKillop became known for her work with disadvantaged children, female ex-prisoners and prostitutes. She was beatified by Pope John Paul II in 1995 following a Vatican decree that in 1961, a Sydney woman was cured of leukemia through Sr MacKillop's intercession. The second miracle required for sainthood occurred in the mid-1990s when a woman sent home from hospital to die due to inoperable lung and brain cancer was cured. The family of Cork man David Keohane, who was beaten almost to death in Sydney in 2008, said his waking from a coma in Cork University Hospital in March last year was due to their praying to Sr MacKillop. "All we can really say is that faith in Mary MacKillop helped them to get through this," Steve Carey, a Keohane family friend, said at the time. Sr MacKillop, who was born in Melbourne to Scottish immigrant parents in 1842 and died in Sydney in 1909, will be canonised by Pope Benedict in Rome on October 17th. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: olddude Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:05 AM Joe you are trying to argue the points and good points by the way with folks that don't want to hear what you are saying .. I get it, many others do also. One only has to look at their own town or any collective group of people to see the absolute good and the absolute bad that exists in every organization that has more than a single person in it .. Like I said - sadly only the bad will ever get the press. Like politics, each party has great people and terrible people. It is particularly hard when it is an organization founded to only do good, does some very bad things, then the bad takes on a more odorous form. Although I will go to any church or not go to any church I still call myself Catholic. I like to fix things that are broken, probably why I still carry a watch made in 1905. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:15 PM There were many good folks in Germany, doing many good things during WW2.There was the government organization, the Nazi regime,that was doing very bad things. Does the first group of good citizens, make the second, the Nazi regime, as an organization, any better? This is an extreme case....and yes, maybe too extreme and unfair for this comparison. But, I feel a similar comparison can be considered when assessing the statement put forward in the original debate that Fry participated in. Are local parishoners having bake sales to help refuges in Haiti doing enough to negate the other bad stuff in the RC organization (pope, bishops, cardinals and priests included. and we can even throw in nuns and monks to help it out), past and present? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM "I like to fix things that are broken, probably why I still carry a watch made in 1905." That's your next song, Dan... :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Stringsinger Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM "I already know what the first amendment is. What I want to know is how it's been violated. You haven't answered the question. A National Day of Prayer and a yearly Prayer Breakfast given in Congress is one way. Putting "god" in the pledge of allegiance is another. Funding for religious groups with tax dollars is another. Putting "god" on US currency is another. Leading Christian prayers at congressional sessions is another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM And the pope advising a politician on abortion is another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM None of those is as bad (though they are all pretty bad) as putting religious instruction/worship/observance into schools. That's just wicked. Note that I didn't say "religious education." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM How can anything anybody says to a politician be "a breach of the First Amendment"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM "There were many good folks in Germany, doing many good things during WW2. There was the government organization, the Nazi regime,that was doing very bad things." Do you really believe it to have been as black and white as this? Can't remember who said "All it takes for evil to prevail is for the good to do nothing". And then there were those 'ordinary citizens' in Germany who were quite happy to let the Nazis doo what they did without getting their own hands dirty. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM Godwin's Law: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM "All it takes for evil to prevail is for the good to do nothing". That is very true. Godwin's Law: Well, good for those who raise and adhere to "Goodwin's law". Let them all tune out now, and bury their heads in the RC sand:) Those who constantly talk about the good the RC parish folks do, in a discussion about the overall RC organization, remind me of Mothers who only "see" only the good in their children, even though they may be very bad folks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:44 PM Godwin's Law is not applicable. No-one is comparing anyone here to a Nazi or Hitler. The post on Germany, mentioning Nazis, is appropriate because that is, in fact, where the Nazis operated at the point in history the poster is referring to. To ban any mention of Nazis on the internet on account of a "law" that Godwin is now embarrassed about would be an infringement of the right to free speech. The person who raised this has acted either in ignorance or in mischief. Godwin himself would be ashamed of him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM "There is therefore no function in society which is peculiar to woman as woman or man as man; natural abilities are similarly distributed in each sex and it is natural for woman to share all occupations with men." "The Republic" by Plato (427-347 BC) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:42 AM I've noticed that there are two types of 'bad' people in the world: People who are just bad and people who attempt to justify their badness through religion or political ideology. To my mind adherents of the particular religion or political system are complicit in the wrong-doing if they fail to expose and curb the activities of the wrong-doers. They are even more complicit if they attempt to cover up those activities or to shield the wrong-doers in any way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:38 AM "St. Thomas teaches where there is public scandal that poses a danger to the faith or to the common good of the Church it is an act of charity to rebuke in public, even one's superior, for causing that scandal – including the Pope himself. St. Paul did this with St. Peter when Peter refused to eat with the very Gentiles he was supposed to be converting. (Gal 2:11ff)" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM "St. Thomas teaches where there is public scandal that poses a danger to the faith or to the common good of the Church it is an act of charity to rebuke in public ..." It's a pity that the CC haven't paid much attention to the teachings of St. Thomas, then, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM And you actually think that doesn't happen? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry on The Catholic Church From: Ed T Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:00 PM "And you actually think that doesn't happen?" Yes, I do think that. |