counterpoint in traditional music

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:08 AM

dOC tom.
Sheffield Carollers, I think they are claasified as tradtional singers, its along time since iheard them ,but I think they use counterpoint

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:44 AM

Quite.

Though not ceili bands for me, thanks.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:39 AM

I live in Ireland, country music is not far more popular, it depends what area you are in, down the west coast traditional music appreciation is strong,areas such as and Kerry, Clare, Sliabh Luchra, Cork City and to a lesser extent West Cork, Traditional music is popular in these parts.
Of course country music is popular in fact quite a LOT of people like both .
I happen to like Irish traditional music, and old timey music and even some country artists like The Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers and Hank Williams, I know I am not unusual in having a broad taste in music.
neither does everyone in IRELAND like just single line tradtional irish music, many of us appreciate good guitarists, pianists bodhran players, harpists, accompanying the music, what many appreciate, particularly when it comes to playing for dancing, is the piano played in the style of Josephine Keegan or Reg Hall, or the guitar of Paul deGrae, or the bodhran of Colm Murphy.
listen to all the good Irish ceili bands, most of them have a good piano player accompanying the melody line

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:23 AM

And to say that the true beauty of Irish music lies in the melody lines is not to say that that's the only legitimate way it can be heard! Reaching for my Bothy Band CD...

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:20 AM

I can assure you that not everybody in Ireland likes the music we're talking about. I hear that country music is far more popular.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:09 AM

I can appreciate that some people like a single line of melody, I just do not believe that everyone in an entire country does, not now nor at any time in the past.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:22 PM

We have no idea how Carolan used harmony as little (none?) of it has survived. Whilst I love Irish harp music and agree about its antiquity, I think antiquity is what it basically is. I still maintain that the true beauty of Irish music lies in the melody line of each tune. I went to a lovely session at Hughes' at which at least a dozen players were playing nothing but the melody. Not a guitar or other plucked stringy thingie in sight, and no boxes either. It was wonderful.

And stop going on at every opportunity about my getting banned from another forum.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

A tongue-in-cheek suggestion: perhaps Irish music is played so fast so often in an attempt to hold the interest of those of us who get bored waiting for the next note in a single line melody:)

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM

Steve, you are only partly right.
let us take the harp[not the sort that you gob into, or suck blow]but the stringed harp.
the harp is one of the oldest instruments used in the playing of traditional irish music,it provided Carolan with the means to communicate his talent and channelled his inspiration for all his compostions.
The harp is an instrument that is used almost entirely for playing melody and harmony[ when used in irish music].
it is also one of the oldest irish instruments it predates the concertina, the uileean pipes,the banjo, the penny whistle,the accordion, and it is one of the instruments people associate with ireland and irish traditional music.
Steve,sorry, to hear about you getting banned from the chip and fipple forum.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

"throughout history a single line of melody is surely not what music is"

In traditional Irish music the single line of melody is the whole essence of the music, whatever that line suggests harmonically inside your head (which can be wonderful of course). And I don't think that too many people who know and love Bach's suites for unaccompanied cello would agree either. Yes there's a lot of double stopping but there is also a lot of not-double stopping too.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:42 PM

In churches, it was single-line plainsong until the 11th century, then came polyphony, that peaked in the 16th century - in England, with the likes of Tallis, Byrd, and Shepherd. For what it's worth, I like it, but I also like hearing a competent tradie play, sing, or play and sing just the tune.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:03 PM

Surely musicians from all of those countries used instruments that were capable of producing chords?
Once you have the capability why not use it?

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 02:56 PM

throughout history a single line of melody is surely not what music is

Traditional musicians from, say, Turkey, India and Ireland may disagree with you there.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 02:36 PM

I cannot believe that I am merely a product of living in the modern world.

I cannot listen to a melody without hearing the chord structure and understanding the possible harmony lines that could accompany it. I usually cannot sing in unison as my voice range is not capable of singing the melody line at most people's pitch so I sing a harmony.

Leaving aside the impact of the lyrics, a single line of melody is very rarely of sufficient interest in itself, the interplay of harmonies is what captures the ear in most cases.

To me this is intrinsic in music and throughout history a single line of melody is surely not what music is.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:50 PM

You can call it folk and good quality folk, but it isn't traditional - as I've said on Mudcat and here, English folk music, at least, for centuries was mostly the relatively simple repetition of tunes.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK6kN5e0hzE&feature=relatedthis is better[imo]orys style was known as tailgate trombone, this phrase[tailgate] relates to marching bands.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:20 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quTyEm7Da28
kid ory was creole, and played in new orleans style not dixieland, dixieland was originally the style of the ODJB ORIGINAL DIXLAND JAZZ BAND and quite different from louis armstrong hot five with whom kid ory played.
however i accept it all gets referred to as dixieland these days, anyway i think it is appropriate to post it here.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:11 PM

I come across it[dixieland] in pubs from time to time ,it seems like everyone[musicians and audience] is enjoying themselves.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:13 AM

Dixieland is usually described as "heterophony", meaning the voices don't have to sync precisely.

I don't know why a genre that was so much fun to play, listen to or dance to died out so completely - it's now only preserved by antiquarians, there's nothing new in the idiom being produced. Why did that happen? (Jazz took over and went off in directions as far away from its folk roots as it could possibly get - you'd think there ought to have been a continuing role for the older idiom).

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:53 AM

I've thought of a place where counterpoint is common in traditional music. Dixieland. Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syng46t9YDo&feature=PlayList&p=DF0BAC568FE7371E&index=0&playnext=1

Listen to all the different parts, using different timings, in that song.

==========
Schweik, I agree with you about the imporantance of a tune being up to the individual composer.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:02 AM

The Snail,
I am referring to traditional music, furthermore I am only stating my preference .
I would have thought that in classical music, that it would really be down to each individual composer as to how he wished counterpoint to be used, but I do not claim to be an expert on the subject of early music or classical music.
I enjoy listening to classical music, but I do not claim to be an authority.
neither would i say that if someone wished to use counterpoint differently from the way I like that they were wrong, but it would be more a case of it not being to my taste.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM

In support of which: the examples I gave from the Mediterranean and Eastern Europe are music where the whole piece is conceived as polyphonic from the get-go. In some cases they don't even have the idea of a solo song, so they didn't arrive at those results by starting with a tune and "arranging" it.

Even in the Sacred Harp stuff, it can be difficult for a listener to pick out one line and say "that's the tune", although it may have started out as tune arrangements. (And traditionally there were no non-singing listeners anyway).

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:04 AM

TheSnail: Equality is an ideal of the Gradus and of 16th century European church music, but even there, some parts are more equal than others. Schweik's objection was commonplace in those times already; legend says it was being discussed in the Council of Trent. (They were mainly concerned about a comprehensible text.)

We have seen that there are many other styles of counterpoint, if we use the present-day notion (as I wrote above). Communication between church and folk music has always been more vivid than their exponents would admit, in Georgia (Caucasus) as much as in Georgia (USA).

I would like to modify Schweik's point: Don't apply excessive artistry to simple melodies, if you want to conserve its character. A well-conducted bass line and ditto harmony parts, however, rarely go amiss.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:24 AM

Good Soldier Schweik

[imo] the whole point of counterpoint in traditional music, is that it should accompany the melody, not overwhelm it.

As I understand it (which may not be very well, Gradus ad Parnassum is not an easy read), the whole point of counterpoint is that each part is of equal status. It is not melody with accompaniment.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 08:29 PM

Sorry, I got that slightly wrong.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM

the other thread[the one on the session] has also had one post deleted the first insulting post that was aimed at me.
I did not start the other thread., it was started by [random humour]
I started this thread on here because I wanted to be able to discuss the subject amicably,without being insulted.
and so far we have, so lets try and keep it that way.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:17 PM

I went back and had another look and the OP on TheSession thread is not the same poster as the one who linked to Dick Miles's You Tube clips so I think the thread was not started by Dick, though he was contributing quite regularly at one point. I do agree that the discussion has drifted somewhat away from the original topic.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:47 PM

It's actually "degenerated" into a discussion of classical music, way past the insults stage. The bloke who started that thread is the same bloke who started it here.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:33 PM

A useful definition of counterpoint here with a brief explanation of the main types of counterpoint and a glossary of terms.

I think what we mostly get in folk music is counter-melody. That is, an independent melody which is part of an accompaniment to a song or tune and is in a subordinate role to the main melody.

This seems to be more or less what Dick was hinting at in his last post and, IMHO, fits the example he linked to in his original post.

TheSession discussion which Jack Campin linked to above was originally based on this article and raised some quite interesting points before it degenerated into a trading of insults.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

Note there is a discussion on this on TheSession at present:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25572

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:47 AM

[imo] the whole point of counterpoint in traditional music, is that it should accompany the melody, not overwhelm it.
if it is a song, my most important consideration is that what ever is happening musically is not distracting from the listener, listening to the words.
the song[imo] should at no point be just a vehicle for the musician to show off how clever he is

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

Thanks for the link, Sian. If you can find it easily, I would like to have a link to the song about the budgie.

And thanks, Jack, for the harmonica link. My husband's grandfather played harmonica that way.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:20 AM

First a disclaimer: I'm very weak on music theory but, if you're referring to what I think you're referring, it strikes me that Cerdd Dant in Wales is all about counterpoint. Here are examples of Arfon Gwilym - one of our great 'tradition bearers (tho I think he'd cringe at the title) - on Sain's site . Listen to tracks 3 or 5 for cerdd dant.

I think the comment, "Clearly there isn't much counterpoint in traditional music" (crazy little woman, above) is the sort of sweeping statement that leads to trouble.

leeneia, funny you should mention parakeets. When I was searching youtube for examples the best one I could find was a satire on 'formal' cerdd dant where the singer is singing about his budgie!

sian

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 08:01 AM

I agree very good harmonica playing.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,cboody
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:52 PM

Not only three tongues but he must have sold his soul to the devil. That is amazing.

Thanks Jack.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:10 PM

From an instrument where you REALLY wouldn't expect it:

Sam Hinton, solo harmonica

I think he must have at least three tongues.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM

In at least some presentations of counterpoint (those deriving from Fux's "Gradus ad Parnassum") there is a recognized variety that doesn't have rhythmically independent voices - "first species" counterpoint.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:29 PM

leenia says "Greg, when one line goes up and one goes down, that's 'contrary motion.' ". "Contrary motion" normally refers to parts moving in opposite direction, but in the same rhythm (eg in four part harmony, when the bass often moves up when the tune goes down. The example I quoted was counterpoint, when the part moving up was in a completely different rhythm to the part going down, so the notes change at different times. That's counterpoint

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:26 PM

excellent, treewind ,thanks

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: treewind
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:53 PM

Well, (shameless self-promo warning) if you want another example from Britain here's A Northern Lass and A Northern Frisk on YouTube.
The first is more of a tune with harmony, but the second tune is certainly what I'd call counterpoint, with two parts moving quite independently but in imitation of each other.
My arrangement of Northern Frisk was inspired by Alistair Anderson's 2 part arrangement of Geld Him Lasses which we also play, but haven't done on YouTube. (yet...)

Anahata

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM

JACK, the recording featuring Sue Miles is from 1981.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:01 PM

Is a fugue counterpoint? This is fun.

sacred harp fugue songs

Thanks for the links, Jack.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:20 PM

And another one, a style of music found in northwest Greece and southern Albania:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusicOfEpirus

music from Vlore (the user "Kenge Labe" has a lot of this)

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:41 AM

This isn't exactly Palestrina:

Tenores de Orosei

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:37 AM

The fourth (above the bass) only came to be considered a discord in the Baroque period. It's very common in mediaeval music, as it is in folk polyphony all over the world. (I think the first explicit statement that you shouldn't generally use it is in Rameau's harmony treatise of the early 18th century).

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:37 AM

iancarterb suggested shape note songs, above. I've listened to a few, then found this modern hymn that resembles the old tradition (video). It's enjoyable to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCdagH_htQA&NR=1
----------
There is also a video of people doing shape note singing at Plum Creek Church in Dodgeville, wisconsin. There may be more counterpoint going on, but the media person started it by combining the sound of the singing with the sound of everybody conversing before the singing started. It is an aural assault, and I decided I just couldn't wait it out.



Greg, when one line goes up and one goes down, that's 'contrary motion.'

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:17 AM

sfmans is quite right about perfect fourths, by the way. The fourth (C-F) was considered a discord in a lot of early music. It is difficult to sing in tune, whereas fifths and octaves tune themselves in very easily because their harmonics fit together better. Try it and see.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:12 AM

Two part harmony is not counterpoint in the normally accepted usage, or not necessarily so.Things have got to go against each to make it counterpoint. Parallel thirds is harmony, but it assuredly isn't counterpoint. Pity you can't include music examples in the text on Mudcat, but try this. Sing Frere Jacques mentally(or with someone else), as a round in the usual way.
Now, when you get to the second line, one person will be singing Frere Jacques and the other witll be singing Dormez vous. These harmonise perfectly, but it's not counterpoint. But when you get to the next line, voice 1 is singing Sonnez les matines while voice 2 is doing Dormez Vous. Now, that is counterpoint: one voice coming down, the other one going up in a completely different rhythm.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:08 AM

jack unadventurous in your opinion,thats ok, no offence taken, but in my opinion, they are tasteful and fitting and help to produce a sound i find pleasing, and that in my opinion is what music is about.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:41 AM

Two part harmony is part of the Northumbrian piping tradition so you quite commonly find it here in North East England.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM

The Church never had a problem with the tritone, despite the urban legend. It had limited use in church music because it was hard to sing, and that was it.

Dick's YouTube example is pretty unadventurous - I invent alto lines like what Sue Miles was doing all the time without dignifying them with the name "counterpoint". There is much more ingenious stuff from outside the British Isles - the "tenores" or Sardinia, the choral traditions of Georgia. These are almost certainly much older than Western art music counterpoint and have developed rather independently with their own rules.

One odd practice that you don't get in post-mediaeval music, but do get in Georgian folk and in the early Western Middle Ages: three-part textures where the middle part harmonizes with both outer parts, but the outer parts don't harmonize with each other - there isn't necessarily any way to analyze the music as a sequence of "chords". You might get two stacked fourths, and an unresolved minor seventh between the outer voices. This sort of thing is why it is sometimes thought that Western counterpoint derives from Caucasian folk tradition - the West lost that sort of effect, Georgia kept it.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM

doc.tom: who is traditional? If they are alive now, they must have come in contact with "untraditional" music. Ditto if they are dead and wrote down their tunes, with or without additional parts. See all those threads about WhatIsFolk.

Would Oswald von Wolkenstein qualify, a genuine counterpointist and certainly neither a man of the Church nor an academic?

Anyway: if you choose to write new music other than in unison, you should try to do it in a way that satisfies today's ears. On the other hand, be careful when changing live traditions.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:36 AM

are you sure you're not confusing it [Perfect 4th] with the tritone?

Oops, yes, guilty as charged on that one.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: doc.tom
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:21 AM

To be counterpoint, the two (or more) parts have to move contrapunctally - i.e. in opposite directions. Can anyone point me in the direction of counterpoint used by traditional singers (as opposed to revival)?

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:19 AM

There is no difference between 2-part harmony and 2-part counterpoint; counterpoint may be regarded as the melodic aspect of it, or the degree of independence in movement and rhythm.

Let me take the opportunity to mention that in our kind of music, the bass line is the first "counterpoint" (Latin: contrapunctus bassus), therefore it should be treated with more care than most folkies do. Make it a good melody whenever possible, even if you only have a guitar for accompaniment. Afterwards you may proceed to higher voices.

To be sure: Counterpoint, like most music, was invented by folk musicians, the academics only gave it some polish specific to educated occasions. Make sure you know the most important rules, and if you break them in your writing, do so by artistic choice.

sfmans: witness the medieval church's abhorrence of the perfect 4th for example - are you sure you're not confusing it with the tritone?

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM

And how do we define the difference between 2-part harmony and 2-part counterpoint?

The entry on Weakepedia puts it pretty well:
[C]ounterpoint involves the writing of musical lines that sound very different and move independently from each other but sound harmonious when played simultaneously. In each era, contrapuntally organized music writing has been subject to rules, sometimes strict. By definition, chords occur when multiple notes sound simultaneously; however, harmonic, "vertical" features are considered secondary and almost incidental when counterpoint is the predominant textural element. Counterpoint focuses on melodic interaction—only secondarily on the harmonies produced by that interaction.

So 2-part harmony is driven by the individual chords formed by the interaction between the two lines, whereas 2-part counterpoint is driven by the integrity of the individual melodic lines.

A grey area to be sure: the precise point [on the scale of complete consonance to complete dissonance] at which two lines move from harmony, to counterpoint, to chaos, is partly a cultural judgement as well as a technical one (witness the medieval church's abhorrence of the perfect 4th for example).

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: Anglo
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:44 AM

And how do we define the difference between 2-part harmony and 2-part counterpoint?

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: iancarterb
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:13 AM

Shape Note hymns from the 19th and 18th century!

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:05 AM

Clearly there isn't much counterpoint in traditional music - except for rounds. Surely rounds are the first counterpoint anyone learns, and for some people that's as far as it goes.

Ah, well.

Subject: RE: counterpoint in traditional music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY6uwVbC944&feature=related

YOu have to wait for the chorus to get the counterpoint.

I was once at a session where there was a parkeet in the room. We decided to do this one, and I decided to whistle an extemporized descant. That excited the parakeet, who began to whistle and chirp like anything.

Everybody thought the parakeet had mastered the I-IV-V chord progression, and I decided to keep mum about my role.

(We know this song as 'Set Your Fields on Fire,' not 'Set the World on Fire.')

Subject: counterpoint in traditional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:08 PM

here are a couple of examples of counterpoint used in traditional music.
http://www.last.fm/music/Dick+Miles/_/The+Cott
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcBocS_x_M
anyone got any other tracks that illustrate it well .