Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


london folk songs

GUEST 23 Sep 10 - 04:15 AM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 04:43 AM
Leadfingers 23 Sep 10 - 04:47 AM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 23 Sep 10 - 05:15 AM
brezhnev 23 Sep 10 - 05:33 AM
Jack Campin 23 Sep 10 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,quokka 23 Sep 10 - 07:58 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 10 - 09:53 AM
Jack Campin 23 Sep 10 - 10:16 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 10 - 10:27 AM
GUEST, Sminky 23 Sep 10 - 10:38 AM
brezhnev 23 Sep 10 - 11:16 AM
greg stephens 23 Sep 10 - 11:19 AM
G-Force 23 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 11:44 AM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 11:48 AM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM
GUEST 23 Sep 10 - 12:14 PM
GUEST 23 Sep 10 - 12:24 PM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 12:28 PM
Jack Campin 23 Sep 10 - 12:28 PM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM
pavane 23 Sep 10 - 12:49 PM
GRex 23 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM
Singing Referee 23 Sep 10 - 01:22 PM
Herga Kitty 23 Sep 10 - 02:22 PM
Herga Kitty 23 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM
Mo the caller 23 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 23 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM
pavane 24 Sep 10 - 04:19 AM
Old Vermin 24 Sep 10 - 05:23 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 10 - 09:00 AM
pavane 24 Sep 10 - 09:30 AM
pavane 24 Sep 10 - 09:35 AM
pavane 24 Sep 10 - 09:45 AM
Alan Day 24 Sep 10 - 09:53 AM
Sailor Ron 24 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 10 - 10:24 AM
Manitas_at_home 24 Sep 10 - 10:28 AM
pavane 24 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM
Sailor Ron 24 Sep 10 - 10:41 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM
Herga Kitty 24 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,MsLiz 24 Sep 10 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,MsLiz 24 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM
GUEST 24 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM
GUEST 24 Sep 10 - 10:13 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Sep 10 - 03:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 10 - 08:56 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM
GUEST 25 Sep 10 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Gealt 25 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM
GUEST 25 Sep 10 - 08:46 PM
Banjovey 26 Sep 10 - 04:55 AM
SPB-Cooperator 26 Sep 10 - 06:11 AM
GUEST 26 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM
GUEST 26 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM
Rafflesbear 26 Sep 10 - 08:26 AM
oldhippie 26 Sep 10 - 09:39 AM
GUEST 26 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM
GUEST 26 Sep 10 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Gealt 26 Sep 10 - 05:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Bert 27 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM
pavane 28 Sep 10 - 04:51 AM
GUEST 29 Sep 10 - 04:44 AM
Brian May 29 Sep 10 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 29 Sep 10 - 08:09 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 31 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM
Herga Kitty 31 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 31 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 31 Mar 11 - 03:13 PM
ElunedAgain 31 Mar 11 - 04:29 PM
Dave Sutherland 31 Mar 11 - 04:55 PM
JohnH 31 Mar 11 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Kildare 31 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,mattkeen 01 Apr 11 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM
Manitas_at_home 01 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM
GUEST 03 Apr 11 - 12:34 PM
GUEST 03 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM
GUEST 03 Apr 11 - 12:49 PM
ChrisJBrady 03 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM
ChrisJBrady 03 Apr 11 - 01:37 PM
ChrisJBrady 04 Apr 11 - 04:02 AM
GUEST 04 Apr 11 - 04:19 AM
ChrisJBrady 04 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM
GUEST 04 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM
Jack Campin 04 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM
GUEST 10 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM
Manitas_at_home 10 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM
The Sandman 10 Apr 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST 11 Apr 11 - 08:00 AM
Jack Campin 11 Apr 11 - 08:41 AM
The Sandman 11 Apr 11 - 11:34 AM
GUEST 13 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM
GUEST 13 Apr 11 - 04:23 PM
GUEST 18 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM
GUEST 03 May 11 - 06:13 AM
GUEST 12 Sep 11 - 08:47 AM
Jack Campin 16 Aug 17 - 12:06 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 17 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,Bobbie Hanvey 15 Feb 18 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Wm 15 Feb 18 - 04:11 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:15 AM

hi
i'm looking for folk songs which would be considered london folk songs.songs like sweet thames,up to the rigs,bows of london,wild and wicked youth.sam hall ,ratcliff highway.polly oliver .ploughboy and the cockney,grey cock, hopping down in kent etc
i've looked at the critics group a progress to london and sam lee's singing london but cannot find many of the songs covered.it may be on a deleted vinyl but thats not much use.
i've found youtube very helpful and i suppose any responses i would immediately check this to see how the song go's.
i moved from london to worcestershire and feel a sentimental need to sing songs related to home.as much as i love shanty and ploughboy songs i've enjoyed singing london songs recently
i'm going to do a home recording of london songs and would be grateful for any suggestions that would fit in with the above


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:43 AM

"All around my hat" originated in London, originally in cockney dialect. In those days, Cockney interchanged v and w, possibly due to German immigrants (see Dickens for examples). There are many others to be found in old songsters.

All around my hat (Bodleian collection) You have to scroll down and right a little


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:47 AM

Check out ANY album of Music Hall songs (Cosmotheka et al ) . A surprising number of music hall songs were derived from Traditional songs .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:04 AM

Sweet Thames isn't really "folk", and was written by a "Salford Scotsman", so I wouldn't myself consider it "London folk" - others have different views, though.

Beaux of London City (the Knowing Maccaroni Outwitted) is a possibility - but not much of a song! Set in St James's Park

Beaux of London City

Carthy sings Three Cripples (in London)

The first known version of Black Velvet Band was set in Barking,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:15 AM

Two crackers spring to mind: Artichokes & Cauliflowers and London Waterman, from the singing of Bob Roberts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: brezhnev
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:33 AM

I'll do you copies of the Critics Group's Merry Progress and Sweet Thames albums if you want them. PM me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:53 AM

There will be thousands of them.   Having found a few hundred items looking for things that related to something specific about Edinburgh, I considered doing London, but realized I'd have to live there ten years to do it.

Try Simpson's "The British Broadside Ballad and its Music" for a start, then look at the Roxburghe ballad collection.

Given current British paranoia about Islam (a re-run of Titus Oates's "Popish Plot" of the 1680s), I reckon "Buggering Oates, Prepare Thy Neck" might be due for a revival. It's got a great tune.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,quokka
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:58 AM

"Streets of London"

*getting coat and sprinting out the door...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:53 AM

thanks for the great info.taking each in turn
1 thanks parvane i had no idea all round my hat was connected to london
2 thaks leadfingers will check cosmotheka out
3thanks parvane i understand the salford scotsman sentiment. i recently heard damien barber and mike wilson sing the joy of living a song by maccoll that i did not know.on the basis of this song alone the man was a genius and therefore sweet thames is in.
not heard of three cripples.would love it if the black velvet band had o london connection.can anyone add anymore info?
4tthanks astray.not heard bob roberts will keep a look out on youtube and ebay
thanks breznev.would love to hear them.what does pm me mean?
6 thanks jack campin.not much luck.i sing and play guitar.i dont read music so i need to hear a version of the broadside ballad to have a go e.g a guy named raymond crooke has put a huge no. of child ballads on youtube. and thats a great help
7thanks quokka.one of my favourite songs but as you say perhaps too contemporary to be thought of as traditional


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:16 AM

The broadsides in Simpson are mostly not Child ballads - a huge number of them are about dramatic events in London's history. Child ballads are not at all what you want.

The tunes from Simpson are in ABC in Bruce Olson's site (archived here, look at the dropdown). Unfortunately Bruce used an archaic ABC program so you'll have to do a lot of editing to make them usable, probably beyond what somebody who can't read music could manage. But it's not that hard to learn - a couple of hours a day for about a month for most people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:27 AM

thanks again pavane.there was a huge thread about the black velvet band and a number of london versions.not wanting to divert from the original thread but although from london my background is irish.i keep finding songs that are celebrated in ireland have an english version or source that i've never heard.the merry ploughboy springs to mind.anyway that is the start of another thread.i wonder if english folk singers are intimidated by songs that have such high irish profile.put black velvet band into youtube and you'll find hundreds of people doing the irish version.
i'm definitely gong to do an english version.anyway bring on the london songs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:38 AM

GUEST - be wary of assuming that a song comes from a particular place simply because that place (or even a feature thereof) happens to be mentioned in the text. Many songs were 'customised' for a particular locality by local singers.

Your original post includes the Grey Cock, presumably because a popular version mentions 'the burning Thames'. However, that version was collected in 1951 - the song itself has a much longer history.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: brezhnev
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:16 AM

re sending you the two Critics albums: just need an email address to send them to. if you don't want to make your address public, register with Mudcat and then you can send me a private message (PM - it's next to the name on each post) with the address enclosed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:19 AM

Villikins and his Dinah is a definitive London song, totally dependent on the dialect. And also the melody of a million other songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: G-Force
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

If you've no rooted objection to them, the occasional non-trad song can improve the mix.

e.g. 'London Pride' by Noel Coward. Or even 'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:44 AM

'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner' by Hubert Greg - he had a program on BBC R2 until he died last year - also wrote "Hitler has only got one Ball" for the war effor.

Other candidates
The Rat Catchers daughter
If it wasn't for the 'ouses in between (Music Hall song)

John Foreman used to do the cockney alphabet

A is for 'orses
B for - and after
C for yourself
d efer
e fer brick ('eave a brick)

and so on

And a joke about sex

"Sex is different in London, you know, not like it is down here..etc..
In London, sex is what your coal comes in


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:48 AM

Three Cripples is a story of three (some versions five) people with various disabilities go to drink in a pub - when the time comes to pay the bill, they start taking off wooden legs, removing glass eyes, until the landlord tells them to go - without paying, of course. Probably scaring off the customers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

"Modern" songs - humorous:

Dahn below (a song of the sewers)
With her head tucked underneath her arm (She walks the bloody tower)
Sweeny Todd


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

Handsome Molly starts

"Oh I wish I was in London, or some other seaport town". Not as overdone as some songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:14 PM

cheers pavane,i googled it and it was on a martin carthy album 'because its there'.i'm somwetimes dubious of songs that are not more widely sung as it can often mean that it may have been unearthed from a traditional source but not particu;arly a good sopng.thanks for the humorous songs but for now i;m concentrating on traditional london folk songs as i hope that may be a big enough task.
i was thimking of perhaps even creating a chart of most popular london songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:24 PM

just googled hansome molly and martin simpson did a version. i wish i was in london or some other seaport town? could this refer to aother london perhaps?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM

"Bright Gold" as sung by Peter Bellamy, was also printed as "The London Merchant"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:28 PM

I'm not sure that is the same Handsome Molly (Carthy etc) I have "Because it's there" and don't recall this song. Was that one Molly on the shore? Different song altogether


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:28 PM

A lot of topical songs fall out of use because people forget what they were about, not because they're bad songs. That can be fixed with a few explanations.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

There is a version of "box on her head" which starts "Tis of a fair yung damsel who in London did dwell" but this is probably one of those cases where it is changed to suit the printer's location.

Geordy (or Georgy) "As I rode over London Bridge, one misty morning early"

There is a London version of the Beggar
"Of all the trades in London, a beggar is the best" which includes a reference to Pimlico

"9 times a night" can be found on a Nic Jones CD. A version starts "A buxom young fellow from London came down". Has a good joke at the end


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:49 PM

"Cam ye o'er frae France" is set in London, too


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GRex
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM

"Eros", words by Sidney Carter to the tune of Yankee Doodle for a little humour.

          Grex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Singing Referee
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:22 PM

Limehouse Reach, Lyrics Cicely Fox-Smith, melody Dave Webber


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:22 PM

Pavane - Dahn Below, like Eros, was penned by Sydney Carter!

Kitty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

Not sure who wrote it, but Max Bygraves sang it - Stanley and Dora were lovers, met down the Tottenham Court Road.

Kitty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM

There's a London version of Jack of all Trades


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

Numerous traditional songs mention London as their locale. Examples:

some versions of Butcher Boy: "In London city I did dwell ..."

some versions of Barbara Allen: "In London city where I was born, there was a fair maid dwellin'"

Blow the Candles Out "When I was apprenticed in London ... "

or

"I was a chambermaid down in Drury Lane" from Bell Bottom Trousers.

These examples might be multiplied many times.

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:19 AM

The Oyster Girl was set in Bishopsgate

Lass of London City (Sung by Nic Jones - version of White Copper Alley)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Old Vermin
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:23 AM

Bailiff's Daughter of Islington

My old man said follow the van


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:00 AM

thanks everybody i don't know where to start
1.thanks greg vilikins and dinah is a great help
2thanks pavane.i checked nics discography and could not find bright gold or 9 times.box on her head i found.the beggar,a song i/ve heard sung, i couldn't find this wversion just lots of versions of the jolly beggasrman.
4 thanks kitty sydney carter is new to me and i will investigate further when i've more time
5 thanks referee i'veheard dave webber sing many times and will look out for this song
6thanks kitty. i do believe i've heard this song but couldn#t find any info on it except max celebrated his 67th wedding anniv in 2009.congrats
7thanks mo.iknow jack of all trades from the singing of the johnstons unable to find a london version.
8 thanks again lavane found lyrics to box on her head,now looking out for the tune.found geordy by another name.couldn.t find a london version of the beggar but know the song and will keep looking
9thanks bob.i love the butcher boy but sing the wild and wicked youth to the same tune.blow the canles out is great.never been a big fan of barbara allen but thats personal taste.found lyrics to bell bottom trousers in mudcat will further investigate a tune for it.
thanks again pavane.could not find the oyster girl but did find the lass of london on the nis jones cd
9thanks vermin found a great version of bailiffs daughter on youtube
thanks to all who have contributed i'm really glad i started this thread.i'm looking forward to putting a list together and recordimg my favourites.other than the criticcs group i'm surprised this has not been done before but maybe it has


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:30 AM

Nine Times a night is track 20 (CD2) on Unearthed (Nic Jones)

Bright Gold (Peter Bellamy, not Nic) - was actually called The Old Miser on "So Cheerfully Round", by Young Tradition . Sorry for the wrong title.

The Beggar (London version) You must scroll right to see it


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:35 AM

Don't know of any recording of the Oyster girl but the tune is well-known.

The Oyster Girl two versions


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:45 AM

9 times a night


Billy don't you cry for me (also Nic Jones) is set in London, too
"I'm going to St James's Park" but that's the only real evidence


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:53 AM

May I suggest "The Rigs of London Town"
Very famous London Folk Song
Al


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM

Nautically "M.V. Hardship" [see MN perm. thread]... from London to Kiwi is a hell of a way", and "...to Charlie Brown's with our pay off we'll flock...."
Charlie Brown'sreal name 'The Railway' is [was?] just outside the West India Dock entrancenear to the Commercial Road Limehouse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:24 AM

1thanks pavane will look out for both the nic jones and young tradition cds.as you say the oyster girl tune is well known i might try to put the words to the tune
2 cheers alan
3thanks ron.got your lyrics from mudcat and certainly is a london song.any versions i could look out for or on any cd's,i;ve found youtube great for accessibility but it will take longer for songs on cds.the hardest are the broadside ballads if i haven't heard them and they wern't recorded the oral tradition is great but quite slow and i'm not a very ptient person


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:28 AM

Ratcliffe Highway?

There's versions of The Sailor Cut Down in His Prime with London docks references.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM

Indeed. The Lock Hospital mentioned in some versions of "The Sailor cut down" was in London.

Ratcliffe Highway already mentioned. (As was the Rigs of London)

There are plenty more broadsides, but I ignored most of them because there is no tune or recording to be found.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:41 AM

M.V. Hardship tune is Villicins & his Dinnah.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM

"Rag Fair" ~~ "Without any expectations I rambled London town ... Cursed... the day that I was born, That ever I saw London or any seaport town."

Learned from Peter Bellamy: on my Youtube channel

http//www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer


Funny to think London till recently, tho an upriver inland town, had the biggest seagoing dockland area in the world. And now all gone ~~ every bit. Docklands, as nostalgic name for that bit of my native Town, always rings sad to me, who used in one job I had to write dozens of delivery orders for goods from ship or wharfside at any one of a dozen Docks around Ratcliffe, Deptford, Wapping, Isle of Dogs, Limehouse...

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM

I learnt Stanley and Dora from Folk School Camps in the 1960s - it was Jerry Jordan who told me, when I was booked at Valmai's Lewes folk club, that Max Bygraves had sung it when he lived in Stanmore and I found out that Valmai, Anthony Bygraves and I had all attended the same primary school.... this would also have been around the time that the Dominion (where Dora worked as an usherette) was showing Cleopatra followed by the Sound of Music!

I don't think Polly Perkins of Paddington Green has been mentioned as a London song yet?

Kitty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,MsLiz
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:14 PM

The Rich Irish Lady "to London came, a beautiful lady, Sar-o by name" (Peggy Seeger recorded this)
And there's also In London So Fair "a lady she lived there/a lady of great honor and great might." (Peta Webb recorded this one. Bohola also.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,MsLiz
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM

I forgot the immortal song, "I'll bet you a Kangaroo" which contains the lines:
Come on boys, give it a chance
London ladies just love to dance

I believe it was sung by Ms. Olivia Neutron Bomb


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

1.thanks manitas lock hospital is definitely in
2.thanks mthegm had a looa your youtube channel.very good.rag fair enters the lon folk song chartsdon
3thanks kitty.polly from paddingto green is a contender but i'm not a great fan of the song which is a pity because i grew up not far from there.
4 thanks ms liz i've not had much success with the peta webb recording but this may surface as she is a folk artist of renown
5 i'm thinking of drawing up a list and dividing it into various categories.the premier league are the greater known songs that are to be found recorded on youtube.next the championship songs .these are the songs recorded on currently available cd format.next the songs that people are aware of that have been recorded on deleted vinyl.next the songs never recorded but sung in folk clubs /pubs etc.
next the ballads that are considered london songs that are on broadside form but nobody sings or know how they go.
i believe there should be relegation and promotion possibilities.for example a song on a vinyl lp could be relegated if it could not be proved that a copy of such vinyl actually exists.
i know youtube is a very crude measure of a songs position in the folk world but its the most accessible media.to those who spent their time in the cecil sharpe library paying their dues digging out the songs we know and love much thanks


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM

If it wasn't for the Houses in Between


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:13 PM

i've found another
the ratcatchers daughter elsa lanchester


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:04 AM

"If it wasn't for the 'ouses in between' is emphatically music hall ~~ Gus Elen, words by Bateman, music LeBrunn. Once we start on music hall songs, no end to it ~~ Knocked 'Em In The Old Kent Road for a start, & then ... Let's stick to 'folk' on this thread or where will it lead?

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:56 AM

Music Hall and folk overlap. If there is a native London folk tradition it is largely/mostly music hall.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM

I indeed take this point, McGrath, and would not disagree; tho I am not too sure of your "mostly". I simply meant to suggest that, if this thread is not to get entirely out of hand, it would be as well perhaps to take the London refs which are purely music hall as perhaps a separate genre, purely for ad hoc purposes. Otherwise we are going to swamp ourselves with Old Kent Roads, Ladders & Glasses & Hackney Marshes, and who knows what-all!

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:38 PM

on trying to find any references to the oystergirl i have heard there is a link to the song quare bungle rye.another source says that qbr is linked to the ploughboy and the cockney


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

I have an LP, 'Tradition Folk Sampler - TSP 1' no date but I'd quess
1962.On it Colyn Davies sings 'The Hearse Song', described as 'a music hall favorite with much morbid detail from his Tradition album "Cockney
Music Hall Songs and Recitations" (TLP1017)'. Sleeve notes also refers to 'a gruesome Cockney song'.
I believe the Tradition label was founded by the Clancy Brothers.

'Radcliffe Highway' is one of my favourite London ballads. First heard
it sung by Ronnie Drew. Found on 'Irish Folk Night' Decca 1964.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:46 PM

just back from te pub and a good friend cannot understand why up the junction by squeeze is not included.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Banjovey
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:55 AM

You might be interested in "The Tea Leaf Song" which appears in a song book edited by Sam Richards and Tish Stubbs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:11 AM

Modern Street Ballads by J Ashton has a large number of London related broadsides. The music hall has a wealth of London Based songs.

From Marble Arch to Leicester Square
I Live in Trafalgar Square
Come With Me Down Regent Street
Lets All Go DOwn The Strand
Lets Go Where All The Crowd Goes
On Mother Kelly's Doorstep
Oh 'Ampstead
Costers Serenade
A Nice Quiet Day
Take Me In A Taxi Joe
Calk Farm to Camberwell Green

and many mnay more


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM

thanks cooperator i was primarily lookin g for what be considered folk song but as you say there is a wealth of music hall material. i love i live in trafalgar square and the famous on mother kellys doorstep, i.ve come across another 'while london sleeps' that i'll try to find


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM

thanks banjovey.googled richards and stubbs and certainly anything thay sang from london would be of interest.would be difficult to hear this particular song


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 08:26 AM

The Loss of the Princess Alice

Tale of a shipwreck near Woolwich, SE London


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: oldhippie
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:39 AM

"Loneliness of London" (John Pittman), recorded by Phyllis Morrissey.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

thanks oldhippy unabnle to find a referebnce to it in google


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:18 PM

found a version of the beggar by martin carthy.will put the words on the broadside provided by pavane


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:58 PM

I did a Google search for Colyn Davies's LP:-

Tradition Records
Colyn Davies: Cockney Music Hall Songs & Recitations
1956 - TLP 1017 LP
image Side One

They're Moving Father's Grave [1]

The Cruel Gamekeeper

The Poor Young Man

The Captain's Apprentice

The Wind was Weirdly Howling

The hog's-eye man

Villikins and his Dinah

Side Two

Botany Bay

The Poor Young Girl

Georgie Barnville

The Pig and the Inebriate

Blow the Candles Out

Tim Turpin

Jack Hall


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM

To stretch the folk genre a little in another direction, there's Kipling's Road to Manadaley:

...Tho' l walks with fifty 'ousemaids outer Chelsea to the Strand An' they talks a lot o' lovin', but wot do they understand?...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM

A lot of Music Hall songs are still sung at parties by Londoners which kinda makes them folk.

While London Sleeps
Nice quiet day
Burlington Bertie
Silk Hat Tony
Never let yer Donah go upon the Stage
Big thick Fog in London
Baby has gorn dahn the plug 'ole


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 04:51 AM

Even Carthy has recorded "Your Baby has gorn dahn the plug 'ole "


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:44 AM

just like to say thanks to everyone who contributed especially pavane.i've got about 15 that i;ve started to play and sing and thats great


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Brian May
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:38 AM

"She fell in love with a Portuguese" - as sung by Derek Brimstone is set in the smoke too.

It's also in English, most London songs now will be in 'anything but' I would imagine . . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:09 AM

thanks brian .found a version by bruce michael baillie on youtube


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

i cant find a previous thread about london folk songs.
in my search i've found another 'the grey cock'
this can be added to
1vilikins and his dinah
2blow the candles out
3ratcatchers daughter
4lord lovel
5ratcliff highway
6sweet thames
7fair maid of islington
8pretty polly perkins
10 atichokes and cauliflowers
11 rosemary lane
13polly oliver
14ploughboy and the cockney
15 hopping down in kent
16lord bateman
17sam/jack hall
18 lock hospital



i'd be very grateful for any more suggestions
    Threads combined. When looking for a thread by name, use the Filter at the top of the list of threads. Also, please note that we require posters to use a consistent name every time they post. Anonymous posts are frowned upon.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM

Get hold of Simpson's "The British Broadside Ballad and its Music" - there are references to thousands of London-related songs there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM

bailiffs daughter of islington


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

London River by Rod Shearman as well as your number 6 (Sweet Thames flow softly by Ewan McColl).

Kitty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM

Just one of the broadsides Simpson lists: "Buggering Oates, Prepare Thy Neck". Gotta go for a title like that - and it's about an issue that's still with us: Titus Oates was one of the first people in British history to whip up a panic about terrorism. 17th century England saw through it a lot quicker than folks in the 21st century have done - Oates got prison and the pillory.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:13 PM

Oranges and lemons
London Bridge is Falling Down


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: ElunedAgain
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:29 PM

I don't suppose Bedlam was anywhere in/near London? That would give you "Tom o' Bedlam".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:55 PM

There are two Critics Group albums out there "A Merry Progress to London" and "Sweet Thames Flow Softly" that are worth tracking down,
However how does Lord Bateman get in there; all the action takes place between Turkey and Northumberland?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: JohnH
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:58 PM

Critics Group L.P. "A Merry Progress To London" and the follow-up "Sweet Thames Flow Softly" The first old and the second new. Don't know about current availability. "Pills To Purge Melancholy" and "The Universal Songster..." have several. Both are available in pdf on-line.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Kildare
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM

Streets of London by Raif McTell
Baker Street by Ged Rafferty
Euston Road Runs by Kings Cross Station
London Is The Place To Be by Mighty Sparrow
Our House by Madness
Old Main Drag by Pogue Mahone


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,mattkeen
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:21 AM

Laurel Swift (Morris Offspring and often does workshops for EFDSS)did a London song and tune performance at Loughborough Festival a couple of years ago. She might be worth contacting?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM

Two excellent early Folkways albums by Ewan MacColl, Broadside Ballads London 1600-1700
I know Terry Yarnell has been planning to publish a collection of London songs for some years now.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM

Bedlam was the Bethleham Hospital formerly on the present site of Liverpool Street Station (no change there!). Maudlin or Maudsley was the female counterpart named after Mary Magdalen. The two were eventually merged and moved out to the countryside (Walworth) in the building that now houses the Imperial War Museum (no change there!).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:34 PM

the grey cock


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM

bailiffs daughter iof islington


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:49 PM

first sparrow of marble arch


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM

URGENTLY see:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/London-Pub-Queen-Victoria-1960s-Sing-song-LP-BBC-RED31M-/270725909610


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:37 PM

Let's Have Another One at 'The Queen Victoria' – a typical sing-song at a London local, c1970 LP, BBC Radio Enterprises RED 31M.

This is a nice example of the LP Let's Have Another One at 'The Queen Victoria' – a typical sing-song at a London local, which contains over 50 minutes of 'sing-song' that was recorded at the Queen Victoria pub, Southwark Park Road, London SE16, some time around the late 1960s. It was released on the BBC Radio Enterprises label in around 1970 – RED 31M. The record is in EX condition. The cover also grades as EX.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/London-Pub-Queen-Victoria-1960s-Sing-song-LP-BBC-RED31M-/270725909610


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 04:02 AM

But what do you mean by 'London' folk songs? Songs about London written by folks living there or by outsiders, e.g. Sweet Thames? Or do you mean general songs written by Londoners (or those living in this great city), including Cockney songs such as Lambeth Walk, or impromptu sing-a-long songs from pubs which could be of WW1 / WW2 songs such as "Show me the Way to go Home" (such sessions now extinct due to the draconian licensing restrictions making same illegal)?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 04:19 AM

thanks to all contributions.
there was a gap between my original thread and my recent addition.
in the meantime the wonders of youtube have meant i have versions of
1.the old miser
2the oyster girl
3london waterman (but with complaetely different lyrics to the bellamy version in mudcat)
4.bedlam boys

from the contributions made some are obviously more helpful than others. i no longer have a record player so all references to song on lp's is redundant for me
i suppose the best reference is anything that can be accessed via the net.youtube is superb in this respect


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM

Also try listening to

http://www.mediafire.com/?5puqedg9m9nevx6


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM

the london prentice

care of islingtonfolk club


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM

All the tunes for the old London broadsides are right here on Mudcat, in the ABCs on Bruce Olson's archived site.

You can convert them using the resources on http://abcnotation.com . Here is an example search for one of the most famous of all London broadside tunes:

http://abcnotation.com/searchTunes?q=packington&f=c&o=a&s=0

That search has found three different versions of Packington's Pound, all from Bruce Olson's work. One the one screen you get staff notation and playable MIDIs for all three. It's a very elegant user interface.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

getting quite a collection but many suggestions lead to more questions than answers

1.are there any versions of artichokes and cauliflowers other than by john kirkpatick and lass of london city by nic jones and ploughboy and the cockney by tim hart
2 any info on the london prentice/apprentice or rag fair
3 any cds by terry yarnell

thanks in advance


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM

http://www.thetraditionbearers.co.uk/htmfiles/welcome.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 01:11 PM

pop goes the weasle, tottie poem .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:00 AM

three jolly sneaksmen?

does any one know of another version other than martin carthys?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:41 AM

Despite the urban legends about it, I don't think there's any evidence to link "Pop Goes the Weasel" to London. It first appeared in America in the mid-19th century.

The Opies' "Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes" doesn't mention it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 11:34 AM

It is probable that the "Eagle" mentioned in the song's third verse refers to The Eagle freehold pub at the corner of Shepherdess Walk and City Road mentioned in the same verse.
I disagree that it first appeared in America can you back up this with substantiated fact
this is my opinion
This song can only be traced back to the mid-nineteenth century, when a music sheet acquired by the British Library in 1853 described a dance, 'Pop! Goes the Weasel', which was, according to the music sheet, 'An Old English Dance, as performed at Her Majesty's & The Nobilities Balls, with the Original Music'. It had a tune very similar to that used today and only the words "Pop! Goes the Weasle".[1] There is evidence that several people tried to add lyrics to the popular tune. The following verse had been written by 1856 when it was quoted in a performance at the Theatre Royal:

    Up and down the City Road
    In and out the Eagle
    That's the way the money goes
    Pop! goes the weasel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM

the london merchant
bedlam boys


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:23 PM

the oak and the ash


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM

the press gang as sung by ewan maccoll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:13 AM

rolling up rolling down the river (tilbury)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 08:47 AM

been a while .came across this one in a book of midlands songs lord marlborough


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 12:06 PM

I'd like the WORDS for "Buggering Oates, Prepare Thy Neck". All I can trace is part of one verse. Anybody got a singably complete version?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 03:36 PM

Even a large number of folk songs that don't mention London were very likely written there, even moreso the further back you go. That's where the majority of printers lived and thus where the ballad writers also lived. The ones we actually know the names of actually all operated in London. And hence the large number of ballads offered here. For instance the ballad, 'The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O', we are given a graphic account of an interview with the author by Henry Mayhew in one of his London Labour books.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Bobbie Hanvey
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:19 PM

I recorded folksinger Tony Mc Auley singing The Enterprise of London Town many years ago and can’t find the tape. First two lines of the song are, ‘The Enterprise of London Town it was that good ship’s name
She was loaded with gold and with indigo and from Peru she came....
Maybe the song has a different title. Tried to find it on line. No luck


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:11 PM

And hence the large number of ballads offered here. For instance the ballad, 'The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O', we are given a graphic account of an interview with the author by Henry Mayhew in one of his London Labour books.
I'd be really interested in reading this. Can you point me to the citation? Thanks!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 18 July 5:28 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.