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Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat

GUEST,josep 26 Sep 10 - 02:44 PM
Acorn4 26 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM
Jim Dixon 26 Sep 10 - 04:10 PM
Leadfingers 26 Sep 10 - 05:59 PM
Genie 26 Sep 10 - 08:59 PM
GUEST,josep 26 Sep 10 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,josep 26 Sep 10 - 10:01 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM
GUEST 27 Sep 10 - 12:41 AM
Mooh 27 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM
buddhuu 27 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Neil D 27 Sep 10 - 09:09 AM
Will Fly 27 Sep 10 - 09:27 AM
Rafflesbear 27 Sep 10 - 09:49 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Sep 10 - 10:34 AM
fat B****rd 27 Sep 10 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,leeneia 27 Sep 10 - 11:00 AM
Jack Campin 27 Sep 10 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,josep 27 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 10 - 12:23 PM
George Papavgeris 27 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 10 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,Neil D 28 Sep 10 - 08:51 AM
GUEST 28 Sep 10 - 08:55 AM
Darowyn 28 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM
Lox 28 Sep 10 - 09:19 AM
Genie 28 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM
Amergin 28 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM
George Papavgeris 28 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,josep 28 Sep 10 - 07:55 PM
olddude 28 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM
Bill D 28 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Sep 10 - 08:30 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 28 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,josep 28 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,josep 28 Sep 10 - 09:55 PM
Genie 29 Sep 10 - 12:52 AM
Genie 29 Sep 10 - 12:54 AM
Smokey. 30 Sep 10 - 06:42 PM
Little Hawk 30 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM
Lox 30 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 10 - 08:55 AM
Smokey. 01 Oct 10 - 06:42 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM
Smokey. 01 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 10 - 08:13 PM
Artful Codger 01 Oct 10 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Oct 10 - 11:55 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Oct 10 - 06:13 AM
Little Hawk 02 Oct 10 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,josep 02 Oct 10 - 10:37 AM
Little Hawk 02 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM
Smokey. 02 Oct 10 - 02:22 PM
Tootler 02 Oct 10 - 04:54 PM
jeffp 02 Oct 10 - 05:56 PM
Artful Codger 02 Oct 10 - 06:17 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Oct 10 - 03:13 AM
Little Hawk 03 Oct 10 - 04:32 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Oct 10 - 05:01 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Oct 10 - 05:45 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Oct 10 - 08:20 AM
Little Hawk 03 Oct 10 - 08:52 AM
Bat Goddess 04 Oct 10 - 08:28 AM
Little Hawk 04 Oct 10 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting 04 Oct 10 - 10:01 AM
Will Fly 04 Oct 10 - 11:04 AM
Mooh 04 Oct 10 - 12:13 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM
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Tootler 04 Oct 10 - 06:31 PM
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Subject: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 02:44 PM

Who is this guy??? Why do I have to see his face on every goddamn magazine cover?? So I went on youtube figuring maybe he's talented. Christ, he can't even sing--he's terrible. And some awards show or other nominated him for best new artist of the year??? Is this what it's come down to? Some teeny-bopper, whiny-voiced kid is the best new artist of the year? And the saddest thing is, judging from the other acts out there, he probably is the best new artist of the year.

I was also dumbfounded when I read that Kanye West is 14-time Grammy winner. 14 grammys??? This guy sings worse than Justin Bieber!!! He's horrible. Did Simon & Garfunkle ever win 14 grammys? I mean, Isuck as bad as either West or Bieber, where's my fortune?? How do you get in on that. Believe me, I can be just as bad as either of those two.

But then I butcher up blues and folk type stuff. Nobody listens to that anymore. The music both these turds do is just plain stenchy. Mass-produced pop. Utterly devoid of substance. Who's listening to this shit and why haven't they been shot for doing so??

But then, we're living in a society that pays that ugly broad on Jersey Shore (the most popular show for 18-34 year-olds) $25,000 to walk down a carpet. No lie. Each idiot on this program commands huge sums of money for endorsements and appearances and are each launching their own line of cosmetics, perfumes, colognes and clothing. Hey, I can be just as crude, classless, talentless and stupid as any of them, where's my endorsement deal??

What has happened to us?? How much worse is this going to get?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM

Good rant!


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:10 PM

Just curious-- When was the last time a musician you DID like appeared on the cover of one of those magazines?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:59 PM

Come ON Josep ! Dont beat about the bush , tell us what you really think !!


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Subject: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Genie
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 08:59 PM

LOL, Terry.

Actually, I've been thinking the same thing about Justin Bieber ever since I saw him 'perform' on Saturday Night Live a few weeks ago. No, it's not about age (his or mine), as I do appreciate the talents of many of today's pop, rap, r&b, country, etc., stars, including some who are teen idols.   That's because some of them really can dance, sing, and maybe even write songs. But Justin Bieber, from what I've seen, can't do any of the above. Yes, he's cute, but being that cute is not all that rare among teenage boys.   He ain't no Michael Jackson or Justin Timberlake or Leann Rimes (all of whom showed a lot of talent by their early teens.

The entertainment media often 'manufacture' the 'flavor-of-the-month' pop idol, largely by the hype they bestow on the chosen one.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:30 PM

That's what it is--hype. The media tells them, "This is you are going to like" and these sheep just go and do it. And I don't want to hear that they're just teens. So what? When I was 14, I was listening to avant-garde stuff and King Crimson and Indian music. I liked Leo Kottke and Chet Atkins. I didn't go out and buy Donny Osmond, who was the big teen star at the time. I don't want to hear that kind of defense--they're just kids. If a 14-year-old can join a gang and kill cashier in an armed robbery and get pregnant or get someone pregnant and make plans to blow up their school and all that then they can't tell me Kanye West and Justin Bieber are the best they can do for choice of music. I'd execute them just for that alone without mercy or regret.

And the last time I saw a musician I did like on a cover. Hmm, I saw Les Claypool a couple of years ago. I like Les Claypool. That's really about it.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 10:01 PM

But my idea of a talented teen was Laura Nyro. Would you believe she wrote and recorded "And When I Die" "Wedding Blue Blues" and "Stoney End" while still a teen and those were just the big hits that made other bands' careers. And who'd believe that voice was a teenaged girl's? Plus she played guitar and keyboards. In fact, she wrote "And When I Die" when she was 17 and sold it Peter, Paul & Mary for $5000. I can't even beg someone to do one of my songs if I offered them $5000 much less when I was 17. I was happy to make $5 doing anything back then.

To me, that was a talented teen. It must be mind-blowing to be that young and hearing professional groups doing your songs and having big hits with them.

I remember when George Harrison criticized the Spice Girls asking who was going to remember them in 30 years and they got all snooty about it. Last year or maybe the year before they tried to get a reunion tour and it broke up after like 4 shows due to lack of interest. Think maybe George knew what he was talking about, girls? Yeah, let's see the Spice Girls and hear all those great Spice Girl songs we grew up dancing to--NOT!!   

And it will be the same with Justin Bieber, of course. Nobody is going to be claiming him as an influence 20 years from now or even mentioning him at all. In fact, just as soon as his voice cracks and he sprouts a bit of facial hair, it's all over for him. So I guess the labels have to ram him down our throats and make everything they can off him before he flames out. God, I can hardly wait. bu then I said that about Hanson and they found equally annoying dipsticks to take their place so when Bieber's gone it will just be some act that might even be worse. STOP BUYING THIS SHIT, AMERICA!!!!


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM

Yep - it's just a money making 'Industry' nowadays - run by big corporations with big salary executives. They just need 'material' and rather than tolerate dealing with independent thinking people who have actual talent (you see they may object to being told what to sing, wear, and do), they can just manufacture it - you don't even have to sing in TUNE now, there's a gadget to fix that - live.... remember X-factor?

I knew a very good guitarist - classical style - but his 'agent' insisted that he could not get that sort of work and made lots of booking for him to play stuff that he 'could', but didn't like to play....


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM

"big salary executives"

Oops I should have said big salary executives with no actual talent to DO the task themselves, but they 'know better' cause their 'talent' is just 'how to make money'... :-0


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my thro
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:41 AM

You might want to google "Justin Bieber" and "lesbian" for amusement - there's a web page devoted to lesbian JB look alikes maintained by women submitting photos of themselves, partners and friends. *grin*

BUT...While you might not LIKE Kanye West, if you're classing him with Justin Bieber and the Spice Girls you're just ignorant of his music. The man's got talent. And ego - I'm pretty sure his talent and ego are either in a dead heat or the ego's ahead, but we musicians tend to be self absorbed regardless of genre. :)

It's hard not to get impatient with traditional musicians who don't respect living traditions. All artistic preferences are a matter of individual taste and inclination. To my mind it's immature to dismiss artists as sucking when in fact they just don't appeal to your personal taste. I seldom admit to enjoying classical music in public for similar reasons - because lots of classical music fans are pretentious asswipes in this regard. No musical form trumps any other.

Bieber and Spice Girls are formulaic pop - they are the Harlequin Romance of music. West has his own voice and style. I don't like Bob Dylan as a performer, and he's certainly a pop and not a folk musician, but the guy writes brilliant music.


    Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Great thread!

Hey, I heard a kid got mobbed at Canada's Wonderland when he was mistaken for JB. Imagine wanting to look so much like someone else that you get mobbed for it. Now, he might have enjoyed it (attention from young ladies) until the truth came out, but how pathetic is it that people want to look that much like another, especially a talentless hack.

As for genuine young talent, one doesn't have to go far to find it in the YouTube world. The real issue is people don't have the ability to recognize it. Perhaps a lack of music and arts education is responsible, besides the general dumbing down of western culture.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: buddhuu
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM

Josep, you nailed it.

To misquote Sturgeon, 90% of everything certainly seems to be crap these days. Shallow, insubstantial, fatuous, short-attention-span crap.

Jaysus, I'm turning into my dad. Aw, feck... maybe he was right after all...

This thread just elevated my blood pressure.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:09 AM

I have yet to hear Bieber sing. I have heard him mentioned as the latest teen heartthrob and that's about it. I don't listen to pop radio, read Teen Beat or People magazine or watch any of the type of TV shows that would feature him, so it hasn't been difficult to ignore him. The OP on the other hand, actively sought him out on Youtube, didn't like him and now complains of having him shoved down his throat (I personally would not have chosen that wording). Why not take one look , figure he's all fluff and watch some Bellowhead videos instead.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:27 AM

Who is Justin Bieber? I've never heard of him? I've heard of Justin Thyme and Justin Case - but never Justin Bieber...


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:49 AM

This thread just sounds like more publicity through the back door


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:34 AM

Will ~~I have heard of him; but only because I just happen to have recently acquired a 15-year-old stepdaughter. Otherwise I should no doubt have gone uncomplainingly to my grave without his ever having penetrated my consciousness whatever. I did seek him out on YouTube, just to see what he was all about. Perfectly harmless; much like all the others who sing that sort of song, I suppose. Can't see what OP is getting so exercised about: as Neil D says just above, why log on to his YouTubes when that isn't your sort of music, simply for the express purpose of complaining he was being 'shoved down [your] throat'? Why not just live & let my wife's daughter Evie live? Can't see what harm she [or he] is actually doing anybody.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: fat B****rd
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:53 AM

Never heard him or of him. I prefer to devote my energy to the things I do like as opposed to getting f***ed up about the things I don't.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:00 AM

One Justin Bieber wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes when dozens of justins take up all the airwaves, and people with real talent or with something to say can't get a chance.

Example: I belong to a group which support ragtime, which is indigenous to our region. A couple years ago, we brought to town a pianist who had been called one of the greatest pianists in the world by the New York Times. You'd think that such a person would be worth noticing. But no, we couldn't get a word of publicity.

Our media don't want to know about anything but the music which young reporters think is 'cool.' Justin Bieber is cool. Our guy was not.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:05 AM

I can understand people of the appropriate gender having the hots for Justin Bieber.

It's the people who have a thing for Susan Boyle that I find worrying.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM

///The OP on the other hand, actively sought him out on Youtube, didn't like him and now complains of having him shoved down his throat (I personally would not have chosen that wording). Why not take one look , figure he's all fluff and watch some Bellowhead videos instead.///

Probably for the same reason you just HAD to post on this thread instead of finding one about Ewan McColl instead.

///Can't see what OP is getting so exercised about: as Neil D says just above, why log on to his YouTubes when that isn't your sort of music, simply for the express purpose of complaining he was being 'shoved down [your] throat'?///

I'll explain it again so that even you might understand. I can't go by a magazine rack without seeing his face. No, they're not the magazines I would ever buy but how many do I need to see his face on? So, I thought, well maybe he has some talent so I went on youtube to see if this was the case. It wasn't. That's it.

////Why not just live & let my wife's daughter Evie live? Can't see what harm she [or he] is actually doing anybody.///

Don't blame your shortcomings as a stepfather on me.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:23 PM

I can understand people of the appropriate gender having the hots for Justin Bieber

Which one would that be?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM

The generation gap at work, methinks. Frustrating, at times even amusing (when you think that we had hoped to avoid it between us and our kids, after all we would be their "best friends"), but there you have it. And just like any ideological gap, it cannot be bridged by people shouting their preferences or slating each other's preferences across the gap. The fault (if it is indeed a fault) is not JB's of course but his audience's for being sheep and the music corporations for herding them their way. They like what they like, for reasons we will not easily fathom (except some of them - for instance, they like their heroes to be of their generation, now what's wrong with that?).

All we can ever do is find little ways of exposing the following generations to what we think is good, and hope they get some of it. It's like spooning earth into the gap to fill it, and not very likely to make much impact, but now and then we can claim little local "wins". I am proud of my daughter's tastes in music, as a result of such efforts (she is 25 now, but at 17 already she was singing Eric Bogle and Robb Johnson, Dave Webber and Stan Rogers - atta girl!). And outside folk - she is very eclectic - the trend continues towards the better examples of music, in all genres.

Other than that, we have to live with the celebrity culture, the teenage fads and the exploitation. We shouldn't complain, because it was our generation that we started them, in the 60s (read John Marr's History of Modern Britain, he has a few choice words about America's role in this too).

It's the granddaughters of the girls that were crying and shouting in Beatle's concerts that are fawning over JB now. Sure, I'd take the Beatles over JB any day, but that is not the point. These girls, like their grandmothers, don't really care about the music anyway, but about the celebrity effects surrounding it.

Not necessarily that they are the sheep and we are the clever ones. We're just different kind of sheep. Hey, I danced to the Monkees too, and I know all the words to "Daydream Believer"!


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:28 AM

>>>////Why not just live & let my wife's daughter Evie live? Can't see what harm she [or he] is actually doing anybody.///

Don't blame your shortcomings as a stepfather on me.<<<

Sorry, Josep; don't quite follow you here. In what way do you perceive me as 'blaming' you for anything? & how is it any sort of 'shortcoming' to indulge without interference a young person's natural wish to follow the tastes appropriate to her age and sex & peer-group?

Indeed, a remark on your part, as I see it, both confused and impertinent. Kindly attend to your manners when addressing me, if you would be so obliging, my good fellow.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:51 AM

Ewan McColl?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:55 AM

A song that some of my students wrote and recorded a couple of years ago, which seems to sum it all up.

"Pop Music is my Enemy" by Jon Dallard and Del Toro.,

Pop music is my enemy. I don't care what you say to me.
Every time, grooming them for MTV
Boy bands! girl bands! I hate 'em all! Shut 'em down!

(Chorus)
Pop music is my enemy. I don't know why, it drives me crazy.
This is the last thing that I want to hear.
I hate the scene. I hate that sound.


Lately, this stuff is getting everywhere.
Teenyboppers screaming 'cos they're told they care
Money grabbers, doing what they know will pay.
Pop Idol? No chance! Rock Music's here to stay

Chorus
(Bridge)
Now I know, Now I know, I don't care how much I get paid.
Now I know, Now I know,
All I ever want to do is play.
Now I know, Now I know,


Shut up, you're ruining my music, man!
You're sat there, miming with your backing band
Makes me sad the think that you are getting paid,
For doing that, it's bad. Is the world gone insane?

Chorus

Yeah yeah yeah yeah
Yeah yeah yeah yeah
(Fade)


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Darowyn
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

That was me. I wonder where the cookie went?
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Lox
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:19 AM

Count yourselves lucky.

My daughter thinks he's just fab!!

...then again ... she is only 6.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Genie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

George P, for my part it's not a generation gap thing. There are quite a few teen heartthrobs, idols, etc. whose talent I appreciate and whose appeal I fully understand. And I'm including some of the really famous ones like Christina Aguilera, Shakira, Michael Jackson, Ashton Kucher, Davy Jones, Donnie Osmond, The Jonas Brothers, and even Britney Spears [whose singing is mediocre is quite a good dancer and performer].
This has been true for me from my childhood years to my current geezer status, and I'm talking talent/skill, not genre preference.

Justin Bieber just doesn't happen to be one of them, because I think his singing (vocal quality, skill, styling) is very mediocre and non-distinctive and his dancing (or any kind of on-stage showmanship) is basically not there.    When I've seen him perform on TV, his backup dancers and musicians have pretty much been the show.   
He doesn't get "shoved down my throat" much because I don't watch the entertainment news shows or listen to pop radio, but his name and image and even a performance or two have popped up pretty often in the last few months, because he does seem to be the US pop entertainment industry's chosen one at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM

This just in....Apparently Justin Bieber is really a 51-year-old pervert in disguise: For more information click here.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

Genie, your case does not invalidate the main argument, neither does the case of my daughter. After all, quality does indeed "cut through" generations and does get recognised. But such bridges are sparse - by and large, the main generational drivers carry with them the bulk of the people, and the exceptions are the little "wins" I referred to. Some people are able to rise above such generational drivers and recognise quality where it exists, that is all. Like you, I like to think that I recognise *some* quality, when I come across it. Like you, I don't feel that JB is being shoved down my throat, I choose what to swallow. Mostly. But at 57, I also find that I don't always have the time or patience to persevere, and I am sure some talent passes me by.

There's nothing wrong with all that, either. Nothing wrong with showing some human failings such as impatience, preference for the familiar, tendency to look for what reminds us of our youth; after all that's what we are - human. As long as we can occasionally step back and acknowledge such traits for what they are, that is. No need to get too uptight or try to fight back life's waves like Canute. They are too strong, but as long as we try to ride them rather than be swept by them, we're doing fine.

(Well, I am Greek, philosophising is in my genes...)


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:55 PM

///Other than that, we have to live with the celebrity culture, the teenage fads and the exploitation. We shouldn't complain, because it was our generation that we started them, in the 60s (read John Marr's History of Modern Britain, he has a few choice words about America's role in this too).///

It started in the 50s when multiple versions of a song released simultaneously was the norm. Usually, an artist with a different niche audience could count on them to buy his or her version of another artist's popular song. This worked well in a country still in the throes of institutionalized racism. There were white artists who specialized in ripping off black artists in this manner. These included singers as Fabian, Pat Boone, Bunny Paul and Georgia Gibbs—real name Frieda Lipschitz.

Now what is the difference between a white artist as Elvis doing a black man's song as "That's All Right, Mama" (written by Arthur "Big Boy" Crudup and released in 1946) and Pat Boone doing Fats Domino's "Ain't That a Shame"? Shouldn't Elvis also be accused of ripping off black artists and didn't Domino have minor hits in the 60s doing Hank Williams and Beatle numbers and doesn't that make him a black artist ripping-off white artists as well? No.

"That's All Right, Mama" was not a big hit for Crudup. Elvis may have heard it on the King Biscuit Time program some years before. Presley stated in 1956 that Crudup would "bang his box the way I do now, and I said if I ever got to the place where I could feel all old Arthur felt, I'd be a music man like nobody ever saw." His cover did not compete against Crudup's and the Sun label credited Crudup as author, which means he made money with every copy sold, every cover version released. The song became famous due to Elvis and sparked an interest in Crudup's own recording career which would have otherwise been forgotten. Elvis deserves credit for keeping alive the song of a great but underrated bluesman.

What Georgia Gibbs did to La Vern Baker, however, was downright predatory. Whenever Baker released a new single, Gibbs would put her own version of the song out right on top of it. Since Gibbs was white, white listeners felt more comfortable purchasing her cover thereby stealing money that should rightfully have gone to Baker. Had Gibbs waited a year or two before putting out the cover, that would be a different story but her timing was designed to do nothing more than ride on the popularity of Baker's version. Gibbs also pulled the same stunt on Etta James and Ruth Brown but not to the extent that she did with La Vern Baker. There was no other motive than to cash in on the work of these black artists and then use her white privilege to pull the rug out from under them in the white record-buying market. Now, one can blame Gibbs's label rather than Gibbs but it makes no difference. In exasperation, Baker once hauled Gibbs into court claiming Gibbs owed her money for capitalizing off her material but Baker lost. Afterwards, before catching a flight to Australia, Baker bought flight insurance and sent it to Gibbs with a note saying, "You need this more than I do because if anything happens to me, you're out of business."

But how did Gibbs use white privilege? Many radio stations of that time did not want to play race records or even mainstream records if they were by black artists. This left a huge gap for people like Gibbs and Boone to fill with their covers. As a result, both greatly outsold the black artists whose songs they copied but whose airplay was far more restricted. This also cut into the black artists' royalties and fame. Moreover, these practices set integration back. Had there been no white, sanitized covers for these stations to play, they would have been forced to play the black artists' records which would have broken down barriers. Instead, the pale imitators not only allowed the barriers to stay up, they had a vested interested in keeping those barriers up—they were profiting from it, which means the recording industry as a whole was profiting from it. Rocknroll may have originally been breaking down the barriers of society but now was shoring them up.

The sad thing is, these practices were so predatory, so unfair, that after the barriers came down at the start of the 60s, people forgot about Georgia Gibbs and her lightweight renditions. They wanted the real thing. The theft netted Gibbs lots of money at the time but left her really nothing for posterity and served only to obscure Baker's rightful legacy and all in the name of profit.

So rocknroll was no longer serving the function it once did that was setting the nation on fire—smashing barriers, bringing people closer together, overturning the established order. It went into exile across the Atlantic Ocean. America had lost its focus. Suddenly the music didn't matter anymore. The girls wanted either non-threatening, clean-cut boys-next-door types as Pat Boone or pretend bad boys like Fabian (and, needless to say, they had to be white). For those who wanted something in between, there was Frankie Avalon. The music was watered-down R&B and that water was very shallow. And for those who found even this R&B just too raw for their dainty ears, there were also bland love ballads with sugary sweet melodies (Standing on the corner watching all the girls go by). The leather-jacketed, cigarette-smoking, denim- and dirty t-shirt-wearing, beer can-slamming rocknroll shriekers with greased hair combed into complex swirls a la Gene Vincent were gone. Vincent's image wasn't fake and neither was Eddie Cochran's. What you saw was what you got. Unfortunately for them, it wasn't what America wanted anymore. Fortunately for them, Britain did and so to Britain they went.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: olddude
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM

Come on Folks, he is the future of folk music don't ya know. Did you ever hear him sing Wabash cannonball or greensleeves on a banjo... ah yes one of the true folk masters


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM

Well, *I* sure don't support the new, shallow crap...*grin*

I was once told that a certain radio station played 'the oldies'...and I replied that in my circles, that meant 'before 1750'.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM

Actually, Josep,

I miss the wide variety of music styles from that time you mention. Now, if you are not into 'rap', then all you get is deafening crashing, or screaming and wailing from 'artists' (I will not call them 'singers') who cannot actually be heard without amplification, and cannot breathe properly. I once saw a 'pop star' fall apart when singing the Aussie anthem at a big event - she could not even manage a single line without running out of breath! I could see the panic on her face!

The of course there is the 'option' of 'the cheap time machine' - nothing new, just endless recycled 'hits of the past' - some radio stations now play nothing else than a very narrow period of music history!


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:30 PM

Did you see the recent clip - all over the 'news' here - once of our pop divas as she fell off her high heels in live performance, and kept on singing, while her crew tok off her shoes, and she continued unshod.

I can respect the professionalism, even if I may not like the material, the style, or even the artist... :-)

But then again, maybe she did not want to be exposed as just another 'mimer' ... :-)


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

I recall a philosophy course in which Martin Buber was shoved down my throat. That's not the same thing, is it?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM

///I recall a philosophy course in which Martin Buber was shoved down my throat. That's not the same thing, is it?///

No, Martin Buber can probably carry a tune.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:55 PM

The point of that long, rambling post in which I admittedly got lost myself was that the clean-cut teen star image has its roots in racism. It has a dirty history. It's a holdover from a soulless, uncaring recording industry that will do anything for a buck.

It is foul, crass, commercialism and not to be trusted nor encouraged. We deserve the celebs we get just as we deserve the politicians we have. If you don't like it, you have to change it. If you just shrug and say it doesn't bother you then really why are you here? What have you to add that we haven't heard a thousand times a day in every form of newsmedia blaring it in our faces?

If it doesn't bother you, good for you. But it sure as hell bothers me and I'm going to say what I think of it. Remember that old saying that evil triumphs when good folks do nothing. Well, that's happening right now. I'm sick of the apathy. If you're not bothered--go home!


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Genie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:52 AM

Josep, I don't think the phenomenon you're talking about is the same issue that I and others have with Justin Bieber. Whatever you may think of Elvis "ripping off" black artists' music, he was no Justin Bieber. First off, Elvis had an outstanding voice. Second, his musical style derived from his hanging out with black Gospel singers and other black musicians, so it wasn't a cheap and watered-down imitation such as Pat Boone's "take" on the songs of Little Richard and Fats Domino.

My point about Bieber is that, even within the category of teen-age pop artists, he seems to be - so far, at least - a pretty no-talent cute guy whom somebody as managed to catapult into stardom.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Genie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:54 AM

BWL, LOL!


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:42 PM

If it wasn't for this thread shoving Justin Bieber down my throat I'd still be oblivious to him..


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM

I didn't even know there WAS a Justin Bieber until I saw this thread. He obviously isn't very hard to avoid if you simply ignore the mass media, the entertainment magazines, and the marketers, which is exactly what I tend to do. I read books instead. There are a tremendous number of great books out there about all kinds of meaningful things and they don't contain one single advertisement for anything. Look into that, Josep.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Lox
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM

.



       I found this quite amusing ...




            grenade


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:55 AM

LOL!!! So that's Justin Bieber, is it? Or was it? Gosh, I haven't been missing too much, have I?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:42 PM

I can't help but wonder at the wisdom of generating publicity for an artist you don't like. The opening post whiffs strongly of envy to me.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM

It could be envy. Or it could be sheer loathing. ;-D Or a bit of both.

I think it's really ironic that Josep has succeeded in making a number of people here aware of Justin Bieber for the first time in their lives...

On the other hand, I fully understand his disgust with the way ephemeral pop stars are being marketed to the public these days.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM

Oh, I understand it all right, but it's hardly a new phenomenon, and bugger all to do with folk music..


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:13 PM

Yeah...


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Artful Codger
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:23 PM

Actually, it's unfortunate that this thread has "succeeded in making a number of people here aware of Justin Bieber for the first time in their lives", since it demonstrates how compartmentalized we have ALL become. This is sad not because we can avoid having Justin Biebers constantly paraded before us (to rephrase the original sentiment), but because the young folks get so little exposure to the vast cultural ocean which preceded them. If they listened to the best that the past eras have offered--and I don't just mean since the 1940's, which is about as far back as even the niche stations go--they might have a much better idea of what real quality is, and demand it more in their own music of choice. They might also discover that their parents aren't as musically clueless as teens like to pretend (though there is always that need to rebel, rejecting anything one's parents endorse).

I enjoy listening to old radio broadcasts from the 1930's to 1950's (before my time, I hasten to add). The musical shows included a wide variety of genres and periods, even if contemporary music predominated. Thus, it was not odd for a new pop number sung by the latest heartthrob (like Frank Sinatra) to be followed by an operatic aria or a hillbilly song--and people loved it all. You almost never get that kind of diversity nowadays. A Justin Bieber wouldn't have lasted a minute in those days because there were so many other REAL talents getting exposure in the major venues.

So yes, the industry's bieberic treatment of music a relatively new phenomenon, and has a great deal to do with the minimization of folk music.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:55 PM

As far as talent goes from a group who gets NO commercial airplay,
..and have been No.1, Billboard magazine for over two years at the time!

Young talent?
Spits in the milk of Justin Bieber

And there are plenty more!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:13 AM

>>A Justin Bieber wouldn't have lasted a minute in those days because there were so many other REAL talents getting exposure in the major venues<<

Oh yes he would ~ &, of course, did. I remember the period perfectly well, & there were plenty of Bieber-analogues popping up & lasting for their brief fad and then vanishing ~~ just as he will. The only reason AC hasn't found any of them is because they are as forgotten as JB is going to be when his 9-days-wonderdom is over.


It's the *innocence* of this thread, rather than its irrelevance to folk, that bugs me. This recurrent phenomenon just isn't worth all this agonising.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:25 AM

I think you're dead right about that, Michael. There were always such ephemeral stars around, and they rise and then vanish like bubbles on the water.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:37 AM

I hereby end this thread. It wasn't really meant to be serious. Of course, they saw my name on it and immediately went for blood and blew it completely out of proportion. It's not worth the lecturing and the complaining that has resulted. I'm sorry I upset your little worlds. As I said before, go home. Nothing to see here. Thread is over. Thanks.

PS To Genie--I never said Elvis stole anyone's music but, as a typical mudcat poster who has probably been here too long, you read it wrong and then went off half-cocked over nothing. Not that that will help to point it out, it will just make you worse.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

Aww, c'mon! ;-) We're having fun here, Josep...don't you realize that this is how we amuse ourselves?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:22 PM

they saw my name on it and immediately went for blood

They must think you're very important..


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:54 PM

As far as talent goes from a group who gets NO commercial airplay,
..and have been No.1, Billboard magazine for over two years at the time!


Over arranged commercial pap, masquerading as folk. I will agree the girls can sing, though.

Young talent?
Spits in the milk of Justin Bieber


Yuk! Talent? In her own way just as bad as Justin Bieber.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:56 PM

A beaver in the Bronx river was named Justin Beaver after a poll. You can't make this stuff up.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:17 PM

I see that MtheGM has (as usual) chosen to dismiss the entirety of my post by dragging one line out of context. Yes, there have always been one-hit wonders and music publishers overhyping people of marginal talent. But their ability to hype has never been so extensive, nor has the public's taste been so narrowly focused. If what you say was true, the recycled radio shows would reflect it, and they don't (nor do my parents, who were also "there", agree with you). By and large, the people who got consistent air play were people of real talent, who had to work hard mastering their craft to get the privilege. Granted, a lot of the songs were hack and the arrangements often laughably over-the-top or incongruous, but the singing was masterful, even when cheesy. And of course, not every gifted person got the air play they might have deserved. But the public wasn't SO subjected to whatever no-talents the corporations chose to foist on it, nor was the musical vista so narrow in scope. Bieberism on this scale is indeed a modern development, even if it has always been practiced in some limited form.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:13 AM

The plea that a remark has been 'taken out of context' always strikes me as something of a facile get-out when one is disagreed with. It was the climax and gravamen of your argument as I perceived your post, ArtfulCodger ~ the idea that previous generations would never have tolerated even the existence of the likes of Bieber [Oh, come on!] ~ and so that was the one I hi-lited to respond to.

If the 50s, during which I did my National Service, attended university, started work, changed jobs and entered teaching career, and got married, were 'before your time', you 'hasten to add', then your parents were not there in the sense that I was in the period under discussion ~~ they are clearly much younger than me, a whole generation after mine at least, it would appear [I am 78]. And I reiterate that I never recall a time when there was not 'bieberism'. In fact I don't think there has even been one. Little Hawk appears to agree with me, note.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:32 AM

I think there always been a fair bit of Bieberism (AAARGGH! What a vile-sounding term)...it's the price we pay for harbouring the profit motive in regards to art and entertainment...and that leads to all kinds of horrible travesties.

However, I think we are deluged in more of it these days due to the preponderance of broadcast media, namely TV. I adroitly avoid all of it by not watching TV or listening to the radio. ;-) I basically have not watched TV or listened to radio since around the late 80s, and my life has, I feel, benefited considerably thereby, as it has left me a great deal of time to do far more satisfying and enlightening things, such as reading books, playing music, engaging in hobbies, socializing, etc.

I do, however, admit to wasting a great deal of time on the Internet, so I'm not perfect. ;-) For perfection, we must turn to luminaries such as William Shatner, Winona Ryder, and Chongo Chimp.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:01 AM

"the 50s, during which I did my National Service, attended university,"

I'm inclined to trust MtheGM's assessment on this one. I wasn't there but my mother who was, always maintained that the 50's were nauseatingly twee for music. Lots of formulaic 'nice' boys and girls singing bland predictable pop tunes.. (certainly sounds familiar). Luckily for her she had imported Motown to fall back on. She reckoned the 60's were a well needed blast of fresh air and blew all the 50's pap out of the window.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:45 AM

LH ~ sorry you don't like my coinage 'Bieberism';would you prefer 'Biebarity', perhaps?

CS ~ the 50s weren't all twee & horrible, mind. I always warmed to Jo Stafford, Guy Mitchell, et al; whereas I have never greatly taken to the 60s ~~ tho I suppose one must admit that that firm of J Lennon & Co [what were they called, now?] had something going for them!

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:20 AM

Well, I looked at a bit of one clip and was immediately reminded of the whininess of Donny Osmond's cover of "Puppy Love", although Marie Osmond's "Paper Woses" was infinitely worse. However all of the Osmonds could sing a bit even if I didn't like them.

However, if you want real weak wailing whiney crap you need to re-hear anything by Davy Jones of the Monkees (put into the TV series for his cute face) or indeed anything other than "Let's Dance" by Chris Montez.

Rory Storm couldn't sing to save his life, and Marianne Faithful's attractions were not at the vocal end of her digestive tract.   Matt Monroe (whose work I hated) and Clinton Ford (ditto) could sing the arse off Dickie Valentine or Pat Boone.

Probably the last time the music industry gave a stuff for the musical talents of recording stars was the heyday of the "girl groups" from the race music and early soul days. There are indeed a few women from then some of whom looked like the east end of westbound agricultural impliments who were simply fantastic musicians. That's rare today although both Aquilera and Pink are pretty decent singers.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:52 AM

Great post, Richard. ;-) Indeed, whiny crap has been with us for a very loooooong time.

Michael, I didn't say I didn't LIKE the term "Bieberism". I love it! It's just that it summons up such a vile mental image....but it's perfect for that purpose.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:28 AM

I can honestly say I haven't a clue as to who or what he is or think he is. I don't watch television. I don't read People or Us or magazines of that ilk.

He's supposed to sing? Okay. But I've never heard him. Not sure I want to waste the time to find out either. Sometime, I suppose, he'll come across the screen (computer) without me having to make an effort. Then I'll know...and can avoid if that's what needs to be done.

Sorry. I'm totally out of touch with "popular" music. And I don't want to waste the effort caring.

Linn


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:50 AM

You are clearly moving up the ladder of enlightenment, Bat Goddess... ;-) (But what a threat to the ruling $ySStem you are! You're paying no attention to their pandemic marketing schemes, and that makes you dangerously subversive.) Welcome to the club!


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:01 AM

I have heard the name, of course - actually, I have never heard it, never heard his name spoken - but I have seen the name on news online pages. I have never seen his photo or heard his voice; I just accepted the name as the latest in a long, long string of momentary top-of-the-heap fads, so it doesn't bother me.

I suspect that Guest/Josep has simply become sensitized to Bieber's name/face and now he sees it everywhere. We've all had that experience, no doubt: hear of a brand, a person, an event, a word, for the first time and suddenly it seems it is everywhere.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:04 AM

Ah... the decade of the '50s - when will we hear or see its like again!

Yes, there was indeed the tweeness of "How Much Is That Doggie In The Window?" (Pattie Page) and its ilk - anyone remember Pearl Carr & Teddy Johnson, by the way? - but, if you could get to it, there was also the music of Dinah Washington, early Elvis, late Delmore Brothers rockabilly, the last knockings of Django... Kay Starr even. The whole King Records catalogue! Think of that - Tiny Bradshaw, Dave Bartholomew, Wynonie Harris...

All decades produce music from all parts of the spectrum - you just have to decide which colours are yours. What colour is a Bieber, I wonder...


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 12:13 PM

"All decades produce music from all parts of the spectrum - you just have to decide which colours are yours. What colour is a Bieber, I wonder..." (Will Fly)

Agreed. As for the colour of Bieber, whatever it is I hope it's fading fast.

I get almost no requests for JB in my lesson business so he hasn't hit that market in any big way yet. Now, Taylor Swift, that's another story. She's money in the bank. Girls are enrolling like crazy and they all love Swift. She has sold a lot of guitars and bought a lot of lessons and returned a lot of folks back to playing and performing music.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM

Who?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 03:33 PM

Oh My God! I just googled. The repetitive melody lines, the metronomic over poppy undersnappy snare, the focus on cheekbones - I barf! (That's a reference to a demo of Duffy's called "I melt" - which was also dogshit).

Not a patch on (say) "Mr President".

Or even on "Sounds of the Underground".

When if ever again will women singers be judged on something other than looks?


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 03:34 PM

PS - the only good thing there is to be said about Justin Timberlake is that he really cannot be said to succeed on the basis of looks.


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Subject: RE: Stop shoving Justin Bieber down my throat
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:31 PM

They clearly have a Barbie master somewhere which they clone them all from.

When if ever again will women singers be judged on something other than looks?

Or sold on the basis of how much flesh is on display. Celtic woman come out of the same pot.


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