BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?

Subject: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:55 AM

Which name do you prefer? From an historical, nationalistic and purely personal perspective, I much prefer Great Britain. As a republican, I object to my country being referred to as a kingdom and, with more and more devolution, we are becoming less and less united. Great Britain, on the other hand, encompasses a degree of autonomy and national (and regional) difference and pride, whilst implying that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts – which I believe it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:01 AM

They do not mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:08 AM

Bloody silly to call it a kingdom when we have (unfortunately) a queen. Great Britain somehow still has the ring of Rule Britannia about it (and in any case, strictly speaking, it's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - sheesh). I suppose we could call it Greater Bitain (like Greater London and Greater Manchester) but I don't think it'll catch on. Britain will do me. We'll all be saying geebee soon anyway. Let's get John Humphrys on to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM

Greater bittern? Greater Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:21 AM

Well, as members of the most important nation on earth - Americans - think it's all called 'England', why not stick with that? :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:32 AM

And we'll call you all Yanks, if that's OK :)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:49 AM

Albion.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:07 AM

If I am holidaying in another country and someone asks where I come from I usually say from England really to explain where I am on the map. If I came from Wales, Scotland or Ireland I would say that. At home/work I use UK because that is what I use when answering the telephone in my job at work short and to the point but not the full United Kingdom which is a bit of a mouthful. GB reminds me of GBH.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:23 AM

England is England.
With Scotland & Wales it makes Great Britain.
Add Northern Ireland for the UK.

I was born in Wales, live in England and am a UK citizen. GB has no practical use, except as a geographical description.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:42 AM

Not as great as before? (Runs for cover)

Why not simply break it down to it's parts? England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales?

Here's one Yank who gets peeved to watch old war films in which it would appear that we won the freakin' war!

We all know that England was into it long before we were, but how many know that England invented RADAR? How many know how we managed to develop a fighter that could escort the bombers from England to Germany and back? Maybe it's because we don't give credit where credit is due. Fact is, the old P-51 Mustang couldn't carry enough fuel for the round trip, so the Brits pulled the old engines, replaced them with Rolls Royce Merlin engines and presto, a much better plane.
We are not all uninformed Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:45 AM

neither. I prefer British isles

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM

When people ask where I'm going on my trip I say, "England; and if I have time, maybe Scotland or Wales.
Each country has it's own identity and that should be recognized.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:05 AM

I live in England, born in England and am proud of being English.

I would be proud of being British, but considering how Scotland and Wales want to do their own thing and that people living in those countries get better facilties such as free health/free university etc etc, then I do not want to be classed or be proud of Britain.

So until things get equal, I go for England. I didn't used to feel that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:29 AM

Newport Boy has it right. The United Kingdom is a nation. Great Britain is an island. It's made of rocks and has a geologic history. It would still be an island if all the people on it disappeared.

If the glaciers return and cover it with 2-3 miles of ice, it will still be Great Britain. The United Kingdom, however, will be no more.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:51 AM

The United Kingdom is not a nation - it's a state.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:53 AM

A year or so ago, I was asked by an American to explain the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Having spent about 15 minutes on that, and also the distinctions between them and Britain and the British Isles, he sort of lost interest ...

As I said to him, most people on this side of the pond don't have it quite clear either (Isle of Man, anyone?)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:56 AM

"The United Kingdom is not a nation - it's a state."

Well, it's certainly in a state!

For me Great Britain is a collection of nations - the United Kingdom is a defunct concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:22 AM

"A Rose by any other name...

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:32 AM

Isle of Man? Easy - same as Jersey and Guernsey, its a Crown Dependancy and therefore not part of the United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:35 AM

Exactly, if I say England most people from elsewhere will get the gist that I am from that section roughly not quite in the middle. When I go to Wales which I love I call her Wales and expect to feel the same about Scotland and Ireland when I can get to visit them. It's got nothing to do with whether I am proud or not.

Talking of Islands I lived on the Isle of Wight for a few years and was surprised at the animosity felt for mainland Britain. Most of the islanders I've met consider themselves to be independent from England.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:17 AM

True, Terry. But I didn't want to get into all of the complexity of Crown Dependancies, Crown Protectorates, Principalities and how they relate to countries ...

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:23 AM

You're a wise man, DMcG!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

As we are officially "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" then in one respect, I suppose it isn't a choice as one is part of the other.

I assume theleveller means in terms of which you use. I am comfortable with UK, and when abroad use it on hotel registration cards, potted bio' info at conferences I speak at etc.

Mind you, as it is a free country, it is quite right that you can think of yourself as a republican, but not, I fear, as a practicing one. The thing that makes us free to waffle is in part that we are democracy, and will be a Kingdom until a government has a mandate to give us a referendum on the subject. I don't feel I am being ruled by the Windsor family, (although our new Prime Minister is a distant relative...) but I like the idea of a head of state who didn't actually apply for the job. To promote a republican idea is a good sensible cause for debate, but acknowledging of course that as a democracy, we are not a republic as we haven't yet as a nation been swayed of the argument to the degree of voting it through. (Our Aussie friends thought about it, but at the last try, decided a President could be a bad idea after all.)

Arthur C Clarke wrote as a common thread in many of his novels of a world governed by the person who, by some futuristic brain scan, wanted the power the least. Interesting thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

How about the "Loosely Associated and Sometimes Compatible Semi-Autonomous Culturally Diverse Political Divisions on the Various Islands often called Britain & Ireland"

feel free to edit....

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:04 PM

You'll have to say which parts of Ireland otherwise there will be hell to pay....

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:04 PM

Here I though I was doing a good job (for an American) to carefully distinguish between England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, and now I find Brits themselves can't even agree on the use of those terms!

I must say I find some of the ideas being thrown around here rather silly.

For one thing, I think it is silly, and a bit dishonest, to try to manipulate people's political opinions by the words you use. (Yeah, I know, people do it all the time, even in the US, but that doesn't make it right.) We ought to be able to agree on a common vocabulary even if we differ in our political opinions. How else is communication possible?

It's silly to refuse to use the term "United Kingdom" simply because you disapprove of the monarchy. Like it or not, THERE IS a monarchy. Whether the monarch has any political power or is merely a symbol is beside the point. And the fact that the current incumbent is a queen makes no difference, either. Nobody, not even the staunchest monarchist, wants to call it a "queendom." That's simply a matter of language, not of politics.

And besides, there is no synonym for "United Kingdom."

Does the parliament of the United Kingdom make laws that apply on the Isle of Wight? If so, then the Isle of Wight is part of the United Kingdom. (And you could use the same rule of thumb for the Isle of Man, etc.) Since there is no such thing as an "English" parliament nowadays, it is pointless to argue that the Isle of Wight is (or is not) "independent from" England.

I will leave it to the geologists to decide whether the Isle of Wight is part of Great Britain, since an island is a geological concept. But, off the top of my head, it seems that, if the Isle of Wight is not part of Great Britain, then Manhattan is not part of North America.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:26 PM

"It's silly to refuse to use the term "United Kingdom" simply because you disapprove of the monarchy."

You may think it silly but it's not your country. I refuse to see my self as a 'subject' of anyone as, I believe, did Americans before the War of Independence. That, however, is just a personal opinion and not the main point - which is that, as Scotland and Wales in particular, are demanding, and getting, greater autonomy ( and also bearing in mind historical resentments and nationalistic pride)is there a more acceptable name that we can all be proud of?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

I did point out with the rest of my waffle that it is, strictly speaking, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." To answer Jim Dixon's point, the Isle of Wight is classed as part of Great Britain, (after all, you can walk there at certain low tides...) The Isle of Man is a crown dependency, not subject to Westminster parliament, same as Jersey etc, but running their own parliament. Scotland does now have a parliament, but only legislating for those areas devolved from Westminster. Wales has an assembly which is similar in some ways to Scotland but to set out the differences might just start another debate.. (!)

theleveller does have the right to feel he is not a subject of anyone, and if our monarch did try and push her constitutional rights, somebody may just push Cromwell's.   In any event, our head of state is a titular one. When other countries send their heads of state to discuss things such as at UN or G8, we send the Prime Minister, as he is the elected head of state. the Queen has a part to play hosting dinners, but you never see her debating international politics with other heads of state, as she is not a politician.

That said, theleveller has the right to say he is not a subject in the same way I have the right to say I am a banana. In the final analysis, I am not a banana and theleveller has to abide by the democratic will of the nation which at present is a constitutional monarchy. So, sorry mate, you are a subject. (Don't fret, earlier on the phone I was a cretin, a bastard and the anti christ, if an ex girlfriend who somehow got my number is to be believed....)

Anyway, off to a folk club in a while. I will "subject" Epworth to my proclamations.... Haven't been there for ages.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:45 PM

"people living in those countries get better facilties such as free health/free university etc etc,"

When I was looking at some schools, they had tuition costs displayed on their websites. Who gets free tuition?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:56 PM

Can you really walk to the Isle of Wight at certain low tides? This is news to me. When is the next chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:21 PM

Further to Steamin'Willie's claim that it is posible to walk to the Isle of Wight, I have had a look at a map. It would seem that the Solwent channel is always at least ten metres deep, judging by the colours on the chart; so I think any attempt at walking by a human(unless exceptionally tall) would be ill-advised.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:43 PM

A United Britain would be a Great Kingdom !

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:46 PM

I've always liked the idea of the UK losing Northern Ireland and changing its name to the Kingdom of Great Britain, or KGB for short.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:56 PM

Great Britain, or Grande Bretagne, was, I believe, originally used to distinguish the island of Britain from Brittany.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM

The United Kingdom is a state. Great Britain is an island.

Two possible political eventualities could mean the United Kingdom cease to exist. One would be if Scotland decides to go independent, since even if Northern Ireland or Wales stick around, they aren't kingdoms. The other would be if the monarchy was pensioned off, in which case perhaps the UK would presumably be replaced by the UR.

But in either eventuality the island Great Britain would still be keep its name.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:44 PM

McGrath: Since the name is not "United Kingdoms", I don't see any necessity that it be composed of more than one kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:49 PM

Defunct or not, theleveller, the sovereign state to which you belong is the United Kingdom. The entities of Great Britain, England, Scotland etc have no status at the United Nations or in international law. Sotland has its own legislature, devolved from the UK, but England doesn't even have that. I am not sure that there are ANY laws applicable exclusively to England, though there are may that run in England and Wales combined.

I am by no means a monarchist, but I am perfectly happy with the UK nomenclature since - for the moment - that is what it is, Stev Shaw's point notwithstanding. But then (unlike Steve perhaps) I've never had a problem with women chairmen nor with names like Manchester.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: romanyman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:57 PM

Great Britain it aint any more,
United kingdom it aint,
so i reckon it should be, that little island just off calais

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:08 PM

It's not a little island - it's one of the world's larger islands.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:17 PM

Ninth largest, apparently. It's easily the largest island in Europe, being more than twice the size of Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM

Kendall... ""A Rose by any other name... "

Oooooo. Good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM

The "Great" in Great Britain has nothing to do with global power and so forth, it's just about size, about bigger than Brittany (Bretagne).

"United Kingdoms" was actually the term used at the time James VI of Scotland also became James I of England. I'm not sure when the S was dropped, but the title does seem specifically to refer to the union of the two kingdoms - no one ever talked before that time about the United Kingdom of England and Wales, or of England, Wales and Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:35 PM

Actually the Germans invented radar, they just didn't employ it so well (Kendall's post 29th September).

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:07 PM

Yes, but we "British" invented ways of JAMMING it,which by 1945 was the really important thing !! As to the main point of the thread; well, if asked,for example,to declare or reveal my national identity as part of a form in-filling process, I invariably put "English",even if no such box exists for me to tick ( in which case I write "ENGLISH" in large letters in the "Other" box).I hate "UK" , and resent "Great Britain" as it includes some ethnic groups whose loyalty to Her Majesty is somewhat suspect,to say the least. Better, I say, to secede or devolve from the "Union",and let the Welsh & the Scottish Nations run their own affairs, and pay for their own defence,transport,education,social & medical welfare ,etc., and give us back our National Identity,so that we can tell the French (and some other countries) what they can do with the EU / Common Market (what a joke !) once & for all !
"Perfidious Albion" ?? Bring it on, Monsieurs !!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM

"Great Britain, or Grande Bretagne, was, I believe, originally used to distinguish the island of Britain from Brittany."

It goes back a lot further - the Romans used Brittania Major to differentiate it from the other British Islands, notably Brittania Mino, otherwise known as Ireland.

After 1707, the Scots put a lot of effort into the concept of "Britain" - look at all the variants of North Briton in the late 18th and early 19th century, but getting no response from our Southern neighbours who appeared to think that everybody was now English, went back to Scottish Nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:47 PM

I've never heard of "Britannia Major". My understanding is the Roman's used the term "Britannia" on its own for Great Britain. Ireland was Hibernia.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:41 AM

"So, sorry mate, you are a subject."

Thinking about it, Willie, it's probably the other way around. The monarchy exists by the will of parliament, i.e. the people. Therefore, Liz Windsor is, in fact, the subjects of the British people. This is what Charles l found when he was found guilty of being a "tyrant, traitor, murderer and public enemy", so the precedent is an historical one. Wow, that makes me feel a lot better, LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:56 AM

But, theleveller, those who found Charles guilty of these offences were themselves subsequently convicted, by a properly and legally appointed court, of High Treason and regicide, and executed in their turn. So the status quo was restored whereby the people are 'subjects' of the monarch, and that is the legal situation which persists to this day, howsomever some may endeavour to wriggle out of their [purely notional] 'subjection'.

Sorry if I've messed up your "that feels a lot better"; but there it is.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:04 AM

"It goes back a lot further - the Romans used Brittania Major to differentiate it from the other British Islands"

Britannia is derived from the supposed founder of the country, Brutus or Brute who, according to Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth was the son of the Trojan, Aeneas.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM

>Great Britain it aint any more,
United kingdom it aint,
so i reckon it should be, that little island just off calais <

Actually good point, it seems more and more lately we look to France at what they are going to decide about anything. Where I work we certainly can't make decisions without France's say so first.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:26 AM

Ok, a step at a time;

I was thinking of Lindisfarne when I said Isle of Wight. Still chuckling that some poor sod got the maps out to check depths.. Sorry & all that, but if only people would go to such depths (getting better Willie!) to counter the "this country is crap" comments from the moaners and knockers.

Ok leveller, I did say she is monarch by consent of the people these days and she wouldn't raise an army if we had a referendum, so I reckon the idea of subject is a nice twee historical quirk rather than something to get hung up over. Talking of getting hung, I recall Charles II had Cromwell's body dug up and hung....

before we get too het up over names given, at least we can go back to Roman times for names of our geography. The vast majority of countries have borders and therefore names that are 20th century concoctions, usually imposed by er... we Brits...

United Kingdom does sound a bit grand and contrived, especially as united is a moot point for many and perhaps fans the flame of silly nationalism, leading to bigotry and ultimately gun running and emotive songs being sung in small village pubs. England and English (for me) is technically correct, but I find nationalism repugnant so prefer more inclusive terms, hence the circular argument of UK upsetting dangerous idealists and those who are told by the dangerous idealists to be angry.   

We have a history of not getting excited by such things. Although old pictures from Edwardian times show jingoism on street corners, we have always left it to Johnny Foreigner to stick flags up on lamp posts. The St George flags around football tournament times may be innocuous enough but when they stay up after the event, I get a small feeling that there is something ugly creeping into society.

Wonderful that those who claim they don't want Turkey in The EU at any cost tend to be the same people happy flying the flag of St George? A bit like little England idiots invoking the Churchill spirit. Churchill was a huge advocate of what has now become The EU. In fact, he was the one proposing a United States of Europe.

For our American friends, so you see yourself as American, North American, citizen of Texas etc? Where do loyalty boundaries lie? Here, you can always tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't tell him much.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:32 AM

"If so, then the Isle of Wight is part of the United Kingdom. (And you could use the same rule of thumb for the Isle of Man, etc.)"

The two are completely different Jim. The Isle of Wight is part of England itself just as the Isle of Skye is part of Scotland - so yes the Isle of Wight is part of the UK. The Isle of Man on the other hand as a Crown Dependency is largely left alone to self govern but the UK Govt actually has the ultimate authority on internal matters (though it doesn't for the most part interfere) and acts for the island on day to day international matters etc. The Isle of Man though is not an integral part of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:57 AM

Hibernia Seu Britannia minor. While Hibernia was the more common term, Britannia minor was also used.

Hibernia Seu Britannia minor

As for the origin of "Britannia", I believe it comes from Pretani, "probably a soldier's nickname for the inhabitants of the island. It means 'the people of the designs'" and refers to the widespread habit of either tattooing or skin painting (cf Picti).

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:41 AM

Good grief, Dave - you've just sent my mind scurrying back 45 years to my desparate attempts to translate Caesar's Gallic Wars (please let's no talk about the Aeniad). I'm pretty sure there was something about that in there. Mind you,I did fail Latin 'O' Level - twice!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:49 AM

Hmmm, the Falklands are pretty close too only closer to Argentina.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:28 AM

"United Kingdoms" was actually the term used at the time James VI of Scotland also became James I of England. I'm not sure when the S was dropped,"

During the 17thC the Kingdoms of Scotland and England remained seperate kingdoms united in the sense that they shared a monarch. So in that sense the 's' makes sense. After 1707 the two kingdoms ceased to exist as seperate kingdoms when they united to form one united kingdom called Great Britain. Of course until 1801 Ireland remained as a seperate kingdom. At the time of Scottish/English union Wales was officially classed as part of the Kingdom of England itself hence the lack of Welsh representation on the Union Flag

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:46 AM

"My understanding is the Roman's used the term "Britannia" on its own for Great Britain. Ireland was Hibernia."

Originally the term, or variants of it, was used to describe all of the islands including Ireland. That predates the Roman conquest by a long way. The Romans initially called Ireland by the name Hibernia and GB was named Albion. I think you are right that they would be the first to later specifically call Albion by the name Britain. Probably due to the fact that the bulk of the island (though not all of it) formed the Roman provinces of Britannia. For most of the Roman period Britannia was divided into two provinces. Britannia Superior was centred on London and Britannia Inferior was cented on York

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:51 AM

British Isles sounds lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:38 AM

To paraphrase Alexi Sayle, when did you last hear people talking about Fairly Crap Belgium or Not Bad Italy?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:16 PM

British isles
is a geographical description that the Southern Irish hate. In fact I suspect they hate the Southern description too.

The UK is the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Hence Unionist politics.

And how come we omit Cornwall from this union/great bit. It is as much a principality as Wales, and could have elected it's own parliament long before devolution. The only barrier was expense and maybe the major owner - Prince Charlie. Who confusingly is the Prince of............

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:24 PM

"And how come we omit Cornwall from this union/great bit. It is as much a principality as Wales, and could have elected it's own parliament long before devolution. The only barrier was expense "

Same goes for Yorkshire!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:09 PM

Cornwall is a Duchy, and a County, not a Principality.

There isn't any equivalent term for Northern Ireland - it's not a Kingdom, or a Principality, or a Duchy, just the part of the Province of Ulster which still retains the British connection.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

Many people had a hand in developing RADAR from a Russian to Tesla , a German and an American. However, it was a Brit that first used it as we now use it.
Was it not a Scot who invented the chronometer?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:38 PM

Little Britain.
Disunited Kingdom.
Use either.
They both apply in my seriously dumbed down and fucked up country these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:43 PM

Cornwall is not a Duchy, nor a County, nor a Principality. It is a proud country, crying under the heel of the boot of the Saxon oppressor. But we will rise again! Oggie oggie oggie!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:56 PM

To try and forestall that maybe they should incorporate the Cornish national flag into the Union Jack, thus fortuitously providing it with some much needed black.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:18 PM

Lizzie Cornish reckons the country is dumbed down and fucked up.

Err.. no. Maybe you are judging yourself by your comments but having travelled the world most of my working life and now travelling for pleasure; I can say this.

Everywhere I go I see things I like. In the last few years I have had the opportunity (not taken) to relocate to California, New Zealand and most recently Australia. I like being in all those places, (although funnily enough, when in The USA, I feel more at home in Boston than anywhere, even though I spend as much time as I can in the winery rich areas of Western California as my leisure time permits. In a nutshell, I feel privileged and lucky to be able to go where I like when I like.

But do you know what? Apart from a skiing holiday in France earlier this year, all our holidays this year have been spent here. I bought a caravan and enjoy walking in The North York Moors, Cairngorms and Dorset.

My point? I like going elsewhere and respect the offers of academic posts elsewhere, but I am always glad to be home because for me, the only problem with this country is those who knock it. If they buggered off to find their impossible Utopia, that alone would be an improvement.

We could call it "Great Place the Inhabitants are Proud Of Since the Doom & Gloom Mongerers Buggered Off Land."

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:46 PM

"They both apply in my seriously dumbed down and fucked up country these days."

Well I'm glad that they don't apply to mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:57 PM

Sorry, Willie..and Levels, but I don't live in Ostrich Land...and surely you must know I *love* this country deeply, but hell...what the fuck is going on, eh?

Still, never mind, let's all pretend that everything's fine and dandy, and there's nowt wrong at all..not one little thing..anywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

The country's OK. It's just some of the people... More especially the people in charge. But then that's true most of the time in most places.

The other people make up for it, on the whole. So long as they don't get too discouraged to look out for each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:13 PM

Back in the 60s this country was seriously screwed up so when we grew up we were going to put it right. Half a century later, some things are better, some are worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:00 AM

"Sorry, Willie..and Levels, but I don't live in Ostrich Land"

That's really insulting, Lizzie. I've led a pretty tough life at times, had to work hard for 42 years and will have to continue to work until well into my sixties, at least. Last week my younger son had his nose broken in a completely random attack by a thug. The high school my daughter will attend next year has just been placed under Special Measures because it's been run down by a twat of a Head teacher.

The upside? I'm glad that I still have a job and am able to work. The police were fantastic with my lad and I know that he is going to do well in life whilst the thug who asaulted him (22 and with a string of conviction and two terms in prison) has no future. Mrsleveller will be applying to be a governor of the school.

So, just because I don't descend into a bottomles pit of pessimism and negativity when life isn't all sweetness and light (it never has been) doesn't mean I'm not a realist. Of course there are bad things about Britain. On the other hand, there are plenty of great things and I for one, am grateful that I live here rather than anywhere else. Instead of moaning, why don't you get off your arse and DO something?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:08 AM

I think I'd rather be Her Majesty's subject than Her object.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: allanc
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:39 AM

"British Isles sounds lovely"

And a very ancient term it is too but it is not describing the same thing. British Isles refers to the entire archipelago hence also includes the Republic of Ireland - and of course as another poster pointed out some Irish dislike the said term. Perhaps because they think of it in a political way whereas it is in fact a purely geographic term. The official term for the parts of the British Isles which constitute the UK or are linked to the UK politically is seemingly the "British Islands" though I've never actually heard anyone use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:19 AM

The term 'British Islands' appears on the front cover of Jersey passports, along with 'Bailliwick of Jersey' and (strangely) 'European Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:28 AM

What's strange about 'European Union — apart from the leading single quotation mark, which suggests the elision of something unimaginably strange, that is?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:31 AM

Jersey is not part of the EU............

(sorry about the missing quotation mark!)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

Maybe the UK is fucked up but it's obviously not as fucked up as the rest of the world or we wouldn't have so many people wanting to live here.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:54 AM

I suppose my point is that anywhere is good, anywhere is bad. I don't tend to wear rose tinted spectacles and since selling up my business interests and retiring (ish) I have interfered with health and social care. These days I see many of the failings and failures of society, but remain convinced their harrowing experiences and stories do not make a geographical area any better or worse.

To say that a country is going to the dogs is to see it as a country rather than a convenient border of a set of different communities. if everything within that border, which we call a country, is going to Hell in a hand cart, that means that politicians are more important and affect things more than they actually do.

We, everybody makes a country good bad or indifferent. Knocking a country in general terms is to expose yourself as part of the issue. it isn't a bad country. It is a country. And a hell of a lot safer to walk the streets at night than many.

The world I know is the world I see, not the world The Daily Mail would wish me to see

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:04 AM

Well said, Willie! I would endorse all of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:43 PM

Repeat posting - the computer ate my homework.

The name Pretani is first recorded by a Greek sailor named Pytheas, sailing out of Marseilles and circumnavigating the island (or possibly islands). It seems to be related to the word creta for chalk, but in 'P' Celtic rather than 'Q' Celtic, and describes the view of large parts of south Britain from the sea or the continent, especially Kent (Kantion in Pytheas, meaning edge or rim.) As chalk is not a distinguishing feature of Wales or Scotland (there is a very small outcrop in the centre of the Arran caldera), and only minor in Northern Ireland, it is obviously a misnomer. Especially since a lot of the north of Gaul would also have been pretannic.

The decorated people would have been the Picti. This name was also taken for a late Roman fleet division which aimed to creep up on Batavian pirates in battleship grey ships with painted faces.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 03:42 AM

"Churchill was a huge advocate of what has now become The EU. In fact, he was the one proposing a United States of Europe.

Very true Guest, the only thing that you forgot to mention in coming up with that is that, although what became the EU out of Churchill's original notion, Churchill never intended that the UK be a part of it as Britain's loyalties, interests and trading partners were to be found in her former overseas possessions, "The Commonwealth of Nations" - In the long term history will prove him right.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:23 AM

Churchill did in 1940 propose a union between France and the UK:

"'The two Governments declare that France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations but one Franco-British Union… Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France..."

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:15 PM

'The Age of the Ostrich'

>>>>>>"That's really insulting, Lizzie. I've led a pretty tough life at times, had to work hard for 42 years and will have to continue to work until well into my sixties, at least. Last week my younger son had his nose broken in a completely random attack by a thug. The high school my daughter will attend next year has just been placed under Special Measures because it's been run down by a twat of a Head teacher."<<<<<<<<<<<<

First of all, I'm very sorry to hear about your son. I hope he recovers ASAP, both physically, and emotionally.




Levels, I've been telling you what's been happening in our schools for YEARS and you've just kept telling me how wonderful your experiences have been with the education system.

??????????

NOW, it's become personal, so finally you acknowledge it's happening?

Tavistock College, where my daughter went, had their headmaster towed away to 'the place where bad teachers go' recently, because it failed every single tick box that Ofsted invented for it. It too is under 'Special Measures'.....I presume that means they'll get even tougher with the children, rather than look at the damage they're doing to them all, but ho bloody hum, eh!!

It wasn't the headteacher's fault. He was trying to preside over a Factory Farm filled with young people who are often stressed out to their eyeballs with regulations, examinations, discriminations and condemnations! The teachers had walkie talkies, police patrolled the grounds, as they do here in some schools in Torbay as well...

THIS IS NOT NORMAL, NOR HAS IT 'ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY'

...and the sooner we all stand up together and admit that, the better it will start to be.

I wish your wife well in trying to make the school better. I doubt she'll be able to help *that* much, because the whole Edukashon System is fucked up, from the inside out, top to bottom.

Our children are being Specially Measured to fit the Special Measures, and you know what...they're REBELLING...BIGTIME! Good for them! Young people are angry, fumingly angry, and I can't blame them, to be honest...They have no time to be themselves, they're just fodder on a never-ending Examination Production Line which boosts the egos of the schools and the hopes of the parents, keeping the Corporate Education Bastards rich, whilst stressing so many children to the point where some don't want to live any longer...

What the fuck are we allowing to happen???????

"Ooh, my Little Jimmy's got in to Round The Corner High, and they were FIRST in the Magikal League Tables! He's going to be such a success!"

But Little Jimmy, more often than not, ends up resentful and fooking angry, because he's told over and again that he's not doing things the right way, or not working hard enough, or that he's going to be a complete failure all his life long...All his parents want is for him to do 'as he's told' so that he can get those exams, for after all, THEY are what LIFE is about, right????? That is, if Little Jimmy knows both his parents, of course...because he may not even have a Father around..

If he's lucky, he'll get a teacher who's still an individual, who still cares deeply for the children in his/her care, and who may well make Little Jimmy feel that he can take on the world and succeed. I most certainly hope so.

Chances are though, Little Jimmy will be told off for daring to take his jersey off without asking permission first...He'll lose marks for not having the correct shoes, or for his tie not being straight, or his homework not being done, or his writing being messy..(Yes, this all happens in Sidmouth College, folks)

And who knows, Little Jimmy may also be dyslexic...or autistic...so he won't be able to understand his lessons too well, or he may be shite scared of all the other children around him...His intelligent mind may not be picked up on by a school that lacks wonderful teachers, so they'll only pick up on the fact that he doesn't do the work the 'right' way...he's untidy, disinterested, wriggles and jiggles and giggles..or lashes out for no apparent reason, because no-one understands the terrible fear he may be experiencing...

>>>>"The upside? I'm glad that I still have a job and am able to work.... "<<<<<<<

You shouldn't have to feel 'grateful' for having a job. You should feel bloody angry that so many don't, or that they have slave jobs with no loyalty, no support, just expected to be there as and when, 24/7, for shit wages. People should NOT have to work into their 70s and beyond, unless they choose to. To say otherwise, is brain-washed crap, fed to you from Corporate Mind-Bending Bastards Inc.

>>>>"..The police were fantastic with my lad...."

Excellent.

How lucky he didn't get Officer Bastard who dragged that poor lady across the floor the other day, the officer who is now serving time..or Officer Bubbles, over in Canada at the G20 conference, who yelled and screamed at a defenceless woman who was er....blowing bubbles near him....or the one who hit another innocent lass on the legs with a truncheon..or the ones who charged, on horseback, at innocent people just sitting on the ground singing songs...

There are good and bad police officers. Thank goodness, you were lucky enough to have the good.

>>>>"....and I know that he is going to do well in life..."<<<<

Most of us wish that for our children. We hope for it, with all our hearts..even more so in these tremulous times..


"......whilst the thug who asaulted him (22 and with a string of conviction and two terms in prison) has no future....."

Ah, that'll be Little Jimmy, I expect.



ALL Young People should have a 'Future',

The world is changing. It is changing as never before.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:07 PM

Why not just call yourselves the "United Great Britain Kingdom"...or at present Queendom ?

How about just......      Britain !

From Allen in plain old....   Australia !


Just a thought chaps

AD

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM

Britain is certainly what I think it's best called, but then I'm a Seattle Esperantist (and we definitely say "Britio" more than "Unuiĝinta Reĝlando" or "Granda Britujo" in Esperanto).

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:28 AM

"NOW, it's become personal, so finally you acknowledge it's happening?"

Once again, Lizzie, you#ve got the wrong end of the stick. The education system WORKED. A head teacher who was brought in 3 years ago to replace an excelelnt one, just couldn't do the job. The Ofsted inspectors picked this up, got rid of him and put the school under special measures. That's the way it should work and it did - so now, fortunately, the new head from a beacon school will turn it around. It wasn't the system that failed, it was one individual.

"I wish your wife well in trying to make the school better. I doubt she'll be able to help *that* much,"

Oh, you don't know mrsleveller!

"There are good and bad police officers."

Of course there are because there are good and bad people. It's down to individuals again. Individuals make a difference - for better and for worse.

"ALL Young People should have a 'Future',"

This scrote has had plenty of chances. There comes a time when even I say 'enough is enough'. and drug dealing, burglary, malicious wounding and GBH are more than enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:57 PM

Britain is fine, so long as you recognise that that excludes Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:27 AM

To suddenly change like that would be difficult because of different points of view, people are creatures of habit and call things as they have always called them. We have a concert hall in the Centre of Bristol called the Colston Hall and because of Colston's connection with slavery there was much debate of whether it should be renamed or kept the same. Since then most people decided they would still call it the Colston Hall as it's always been known as, just as my mother calls the area around by the Hippodrome theatre 'the tramway centre' my parent's age group know exactly where it was and know where they are talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:26 PM

In face of global warning, how about switching to "Northtralia"?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:24 PM

Sometimes you get lucky and can change something's name without any change in its name.

I live in King County, Washington. The county logo shows a silhouette of Dr Martin Luther King, Jr, and the county is officially "named for him" or "named after him" (I don't know which preposition the County Council resolution uses). Up until a few years ago, King County was named after William Rufus King, a (now rather obscure) nineteenth-century political figure and 13th Vice President of the United States. Because W. R. King was and is widely believed to have been in a homosexual relationship with James Buchanan, who later became President—they shared a home for 15 years—there were some in the GLBT community who objected to the namesake-change, but aside from that the transition was rather free of difficulties, and no one had to learn the new name of the County.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 01:39 PM

"In the sporting world, an English boy, for example, can hope to play (perhaps managed by a citizen of a nation they may compete against) football for England, rugby-league for England/Great Britain, rugby-union for England/British Isles, athletics for England/U.K., golf for England/Europe, cricket for a combined England and Wales, or tennis for Great Britain - but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships…Anyone for friendly-rival republics?!" (from here).

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:11 PM

McGrath... "Britain is fine, so long as you recognise that that excludes Northern Ireland."

So, if you include Ireland it's becomes Great Britain? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM

" Good" yes

But " Great " ...doubtful

I prefer the affectionate " Albion"

Although " Northtralia" sounds better by the minute

Re: Northern Ireland and Great Britain
If a country controls an island off its coast does that mean the country should have " great" in its name ? If so, we should have Great Norway , Great America, Great Australia etc etc

Great Scott!

Allen in Australia

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:43 AM

The Peoples' Republic of Yorkshire and sundry other bits tagged on.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:00 AM

Hmmm.... I'd prefer The People's Republic of East Yorkshire - not sure about that West Riding lot!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:05 AM

South Yorkshire starts 200 yds from my house. Just enough time to ensure the car doors are locked and in 5th gear to make the journey faster....

West Yorkshire?   Ok to visit, same as Somerset. But a foreign country to me....

Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain or United Kingdom - which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM

I don't think you can have been reading the thread too attentively, gnu. Great Britain is an island, not a country. Not the same island on which Northern Ireland is situated.