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Subject: Lyr Req: young alvin From: GUEST Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:49 AM i heard tim van eyken sing young alvin .is this traditionasl or his own composition? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: GUEST,Ed Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:06 AM Traditional according to the sleevenotes of'Stiffs Lovers Holymen Thieves': "Trad after Packie Manus Byrne" Ed |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Mike Yates Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM Packie can be heard singing this on vol. 17 of Topic's "Voice of the People" set. (TSCD667) - "It Fell on a Day, a Bonny Summer Day". I originally made the recording for Packie's solo Topic LP (now out of print). Packie was the only singer that I came across who knew the piece. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Terry McDonald Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:41 AM If it is traditional, it has to be the only song that features lovers called Alvin and Melanie. Strange.... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Mike Yates Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:52 AM This is what I wrote about the ballad for Musical Traditions: Young Alvin sung by Packie Manus Byrne, London, 1974. Roud 2988. According to both R S Thomson and Frank Purslow (personal correspondence) versions of Young Alvin appeared in late 18th-century chapbooks, although I have not, so far, come across one. Packie learnt the ballad in the early 1930s at Ballysadare horse fair from Kathleen Collins, a tinker whose family travelled around Fermanagh and Tyrone. He could not recall having heard it sung elsewhere - and nor has Roud. Presumably the line 'But ere he came to earl's court' (verse 4) refers to that part of west London that is now called 'Earls Court'. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Willa Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM Here's a link to a sample of Tim's version. Mudcat member James Berriman sings it. If you become a mudcat member (free - no hassle) you could send him a PM (personal message) http://www.last.fm/music/Tim+Van+Eyken/_/Young+Alvin |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: GUEST,Ed Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:48 AM You'll find a far better version of Tim's version here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--y7tOWUR0 |
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Subject: Lyr Add: YOUNG ALVIN (Packie Manus Byrne) From: RTim Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:15 PM As from Packie Manus Byrne - Tim Radford YOUNG ALVIN. From Packie Manus Byrne Young Alvin came from Worcestershire, A man of high renown. He fell in love with the fair Melanie Who dwelled in London town, in London town, Who dwelled in London town. He dreamed of her full many a night And pined full many a day Until his heart and ready hand He could no longer stay, no longer stay, He could no longer stay. Then calling on his stable boy, He this to him did say: "Go saddle to me my jet-black steed And likewise of my grey, my grey, And likewise of my grey." With his broadsword all by his side, He rode to London town, But ere he came to Earl's Court, The sun had long gone down, gone down, The sun had long gone down. He went in haste to her father's house, The place wherein dwelled she, And ask-ed of her chambermaid If he his love might see, might see, If he his love might see. The chambermaid did thus reply: "She rests upon her bed And she is weeping tears of grief For tomorrow she must wed, must wed, Tomorrow she must wed." "Then if tomorrow she must wed, Pray tell to me the man That I may meet him face to face And slay him if I can, if I can, And slay him if I can." "His name it is John Farthington, A rich and cruel lord, And many a brave and gallant man Has fallen by his sword, his sword, Has fallen by his sword. They met within the lord's courtyard. Young Alvin spoke this line: "I have come to wed fair Melanie. I hold that she be mine, be mine, I hold that she be mine." Then spoke the cruel Lord Farthington. "I deem it meet," said he, "That she shall pay her father's debt. I claim her for my fee, my fee, I claim her for my fee." "Then draw your sword, Lord Farthington, For one of us must die. The other shall wed fair Melanie And that one shall be I, be I, And that one shall be I." With force and skill, the duel began All on that summer night, But Young Alvin proved the better man Before the break of light, of light, Before the break of light. Then back in haste to her father's house To tell her she was free: "Arise, arise, fair Melanie. Tomorrow you wed with me, with me, Tomorrow you wed with me." He placed her on the saddled grey Then mounted by her side. He brought her back to Worcestershire And made of her his bride, his bride, And made of her his bride. (From a tinker Margaret or William Collins) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Valmai Goodyear Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:34 PM Hmmm. I strongly suspect Packie made it up. Were Alvin Stardust and Melanie ever in the charts at the same time? Could they have been the inspiration for the preposterous names? Valmai |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Terry McDonald Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:37 PM My thoughts exactly, Valmai. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Richard Mellish Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM Oliver Mulligan sings a version very similar to Packie's, which I believe he learnt in South Armagh, where he grew up. Richard |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Mike Yates Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:33 AM Richard, do you know if there is a recording of the Oliver Mulligan version? I ask because I only know Packie's version & would like to hear any others. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: GUEST,Ed Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:11 AM Valmai asked: Were Alvin Stardust and Melanie ever in the charts at the same time? That would be a yes! The chart of 2nd March 1974 saw Alvin Stardust at No. 2 with 'Jealous Mind' and Melanie at No. 37 with 'Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow' Given that 1974 was the year that Mike Yates recorded the song from Packie, I reckon your on to something, Valmai. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Valmai Goodyear Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:23 AM If Alvin was riding to London from Worcestershire he wouldn't have arrived in Earl's Court. He'd have come down through Harrow, Wembley and Paddington. Oliver may well have learnt the song in South Armagh, where he grew up, but not necessarily while he was growing up, and it's not impossible that Packie taught it to him on a visit. I still think it's a ringer. Valmai |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: young alvin From: Terry McDonald Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:31 AM I also think the lyrics are too complete, full of phrases that sound just a little too 'olde Englishe.' |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: Valmai Goodyear Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:51 AM Thanks for the research, Guest Ed. Agreed, Terry. But it's got a fine tune. Valmai |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: Terry McDonald Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:17 AM Yes,it was the tune that attracted me to it. I learnt it from Tim's version and corresponded with him about its provenance. All he knew about it was what appears on the sleeve notes to his CD. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM I wonder if Bonnie knows....? Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:44 PM So I've sent her a PM... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:00 PM Nope! I've been following this thread but can't add any brilliant pearls of wisdom, I'm afraid. (I didn't meet Packie until 1975 and we didn't start gigging until early '76.) He did write a lot of song words and has a knack for ballad verse, so I think Valmai could well have it pegged. I see what people mean about those names, now you mention it. Reminds me of Cletus & Brandine (The Simpsons) calling their kids things like Tiffany and Amber. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: Mike Yates Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:18 AM Mention of "Young Alvin" brought back many very happy hours spent with Packie Manus Byrne. It also reminded me that I never managed to find out all that much about the ballad, especially where the ballad originally came from. Let me recap. Packie recorded the piece in 1974 in order to put it onto his Topic LP "Songs of a Donegal Man". Having recorded it, I asked Packie where he had learnt it and he told me that he had picked it up in the early 1930s at Ballysadare horse fair from Kathleen Collins, a tinker whose family travelled around Fermanagh and Tyrone. He could not recall having heard it sung elsewhere. I first met Packie in the mid 1960's, when we were both living in Manchester, and we became very good friends. I spent many hours recording Packie's songs and whistle tunes and he would always tell me when he was playing a tune that he had composed himself. I then played the ballad to various people prior to writing the album notes. I happened to be at Topic one day when the Irish collector Hugh Shields showed up. He listened to the ballad and expressed surprise that Packie had got this from a Traveller. He thought that the text was just too complete, unlike most ballad texts that he had recorded from Irish Travellers. I then played it to Bob Thompson, who was in the process of completing his PhD on the subject of broadside ballads, and Bob said that he had seen the words in a late 18th century chapbook, though he could not remember where he had seen it. Finally, I played it to Frank Purslow when I called at his home one day, and Frank said that he too knew the words and had seen them in a chapbook. Like Bob, though, he was unable to remember which chapbook! If Bob and Frank were right, then we know that the ballad must have some age. If their memories were faulty, then we are back at square one. The Mudcat "debate" brought out a couple of points. Valmain Goodyear pointed out that "If Alvin was riding to London from Worcestershire he wouldn't have arrived in Earl's Court. He'd have come down through Harrow, Wembley and Paddington." I did feel like saying that he only had to continue a few miles to get to Earl's Court. (Actually, what I really felt like saying was that there was no problem here. All he had to do was catch the Circle Line from Paddington and he would be at Earl's Court in a few stops. Sadly, though, I suspect that my sense of humour would not be appreciated!) Secondly, the same person, thinking of the names Alvin and Melanie, asked "Were Alvin Stardust and Melanie ever in the charts at the same time?" and we are told that on 2nd March, 1974, both were indeed in the charts! So, using a logic that would not be out of place in a Dan Brown novel, Packie must have made the song up himself, because 1974 was the year that he recorded it. Actually, this is not the case. Someone else pointed out that Oliver Mulligan also sings the ballad, "which I believe he learnt in South Armagh, where he grew up". I contacted Oliver, who told me that he had learnt the ballad from Packie when the two of them were travelling together around the folkclubs. This was in 1969-1970. I then managed to find my diary for 1972, the year when Packie and I first started talking about a possible LP, and "Young Alvin" was one of the pieces that he then suggested he would like to sing. There were then a series of delays – I think that Packie had a fall at one time and cracked a couple of ribs – and it was not until 1974 that we finally managed to get to a studio. I also contacted Jim Carroll, whose knowledge of Irish songs is breathtaking, but Jim had not come across "Young Alvin" from anyone else, apart from Packie. Jim also mentioned that Tom Munnelly had not come across "Young Alvin" either, adding that Tom, "was somewhat suspicious of it." But, Jim did say that the ballad did, "resemble in form some of the recitations you occasionally hear - I wonder if this is how (Packie) got it and put a tune to it. Alternatively, there were hundreds of song and recitation books available throughout the first half of the twentieth century." I did a quick "Google" for the names Alvin and Melanie and it seems that both names are quite old, and go back several hundred years. However, the name Melanie was rather rare until the late 1930's, when it was used for one of the characters in the novel/film "Gone With the Wind". Apparently, quite a number of girls were then named Melanie, after this character. So, could it be that the song dates from the 1930's – remember, Packie said that this was when he learnt it – when the name Melanie was in vogue? Or am I too beginning to be taken over by Dan Brown! I think that we all agree that there is something "odd" about the ballad. It just does not ring true. But, I must say that the opening line, "Young Alvin lived in Worcestershire" does intrigue me. Why Worcestershire? It is surely not the sort of place name that belongs to an Irish ballad. So, after all, could there be an English origin? Let's hope that, someday, somebody will be able to tell us. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: GUEST,schlimmerkerl Date: 20 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM Debate to one side, it's available (as are several of his other songs) on iTunes. 99 cents! And thanks for the lyrics. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: Matthew Edwards Date: 20 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM Thanks to schlimmerkerl for reviving this thread. I've just had a look in Packie's book Recollections of a Donegal Man at the chapter "Droving Days" where he describes learning the song during the war years. He was walking a couple of horses from Ballysadare to Ballybofey when he broke his journey at the camp of the Collins family outside Ballyshannon. The family were horsedealers and Packie joined them to swap tunes and songs. Kathleen, the shy fifteen year-old daughter, sang one song that really got Packie's attention:- "The song was called 'Young Alvin', and I don't know where it came from, but it was one of the best and the most obscure stories that I ever heard. After she sang it I asked her for the words and scribbled them down on a bit of paper. It wasn't so easy trying to get the words down because there were about four of them all singing it at the same time and all talking at once. Mrs Collins could not shut up. She would be telling me one line of the song while I would be writing another, and it was most confusing. Little Kathleen wouldn't say a word at all. I would ask her something and she would look at her mother! They were never in England, the kids, but they could name the places so well that appeared in the song, like 'Woostershire', and 'Airl's Coort'. Probably I didn't pick up the song exactly as Kathleen sang it, but I did pick it up well enough to add in my own bits where I didn't catch it." Matthew |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 20 - 04:22 AM I'm coming very late to this old thread having decided to learn the song. I heard the tune from a friend, although with a minor (and better) variation to the tune. As to the words, I don't think it matters about the route to Earl's Court! Unless we can ascribe the words to one person surely it becomes "traditional"; Packie Byrne did not claim the lyrics as his own so unless we can find the author then that is what it is. If not, is there a term such as "of no provenance" that we can apply? Paul Carey |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 20 - 10:52 PM I think "anonymous" would be the term for lyrics or tune of unknown author. Depending on the definition of "traditional" it may or may not qualify. First, it's not been documented to be transmitted by oral tradition and varied by folk process (though it is entering that tradition now, as some of us have learned it, sing it, vary it, and pass it on to others). Still, the fact that most of us who do sing it all learned it from a single source recording makes it rather different from oral transmission in the case where there is no reference-able single source version. Also by some definitions it wouldn't be traditional because it can't be traced back long enough in history. I usually go by 100 years, and this one is documented only since the 70s and at best to the 1930s if we take Packie's account at face value. (Maybe Kathleen wrote it?). But honestly, who cares how you define the term "traditional"? Personally I just state what I know (and don't know) about its origins, and leave it at that. It's a great song. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Young Alvin (Packie Manus Byrne) From: RTim Date: 19 Apr 20 - 11:02 PM Hey - who cares - it is Damn good song..so sing it! I knew and loved to hear and see Packie perform...let us just remember and respect the man....and his songs. Tim Radford |
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