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hark the barque

GUEST,leeneia 01 Oct 10 - 11:49 AM
MGM∑Lion 01 Oct 10 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,leeneia 01 Oct 10 - 12:13 PM
MGM∑Lion 01 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM
greg stephens 01 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM
Matthew Edwards 01 Oct 10 - 02:12 PM
Gibb Sahib 01 Oct 10 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,crazy little woman 01 Oct 10 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,crazy little woman 01 Oct 10 - 02:48 PM
gnomad 01 Oct 10 - 03:54 PM
gnomad 01 Oct 10 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,leeneia 01 Oct 10 - 05:09 PM
gnomad 01 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM
Gibb Sahib 01 Oct 10 - 06:36 PM
Dave Sutherland 02 Oct 10 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,David Robinson 02 Oct 10 - 06:35 AM
Matthew Edwards 02 Oct 10 - 07:09 AM
janemick 02 Oct 10 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,leeneai 02 Oct 10 - 10:18 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Oct 10 - 02:31 PM
gnomad 03 Oct 10 - 06:58 AM
Les from Hull 03 Oct 10 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,leeneia 03 Oct 10 - 09:20 PM
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Subject: hark the barque
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:49 AM

I've been playing the pretty song 'Blow Ye Winds Southerly' on the piano. In it, a woman longs for her lover's barque to return safely to harbor.

1. In the days of sail, did real men consent to associate with barques? Or do barques mostly exist in twee poetry?

2. What if it's spelled with a k - bark?

3. The song originated in northern England. If they blow southerly, they must be coming from even further north, and they'll be strong and cold. What's the deal?


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: MGM∑Lion
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 12:08 PM

>>>southerly - definition of 'southerly' by the Free Online Dictionary ...
Coming or being from the south: southerly winds. n. pl. south∑er∑lies. A storm or wind coming from the south. south er∑ly adv. southerly<<<

No ~~ she wants a warm breeze from the south, blowing 'southerly' [note the *adverbial* usage, which is what occurs in the song "Blow The Wind Southerly.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 12:13 PM

Yes, but a southerly wind is not the same as a wind that's instructed to 'blow southerly.' Get it?


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: MGM∑Lion
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

It is if she is instructing it to blow southerly in the adverbial sense ~~ i.e. from the south ~~ see above clear definition. She is saying "blow the wind from the south", with 'blow' in the subjunctive: i.e. the line means "Let the wind blow from the south".

Get it?

Re 'barque', btw, the first definition in Chambers Dictionary is the tech one of a square-rigged fore-&-aft vessel; but the 2nd definition is "any boat or sailing-ship (poetic)", which I have always taken to be the usage here.

~M~


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM

Captain Jack Aubrey frequently calls his frigate the barky, in a rather ironic way.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 02:12 PM

I can't recall where I've seen the explanation that the plea for a southerly breeze is simply that the huge fleet of Newcastle collier ships on its return from London had to wait at the bar of the Tyne until the wind and the tide was in their favour. Otherwise a northerly breeze could keep the fleet waiting offshore at the bar for several days at a time. See this The Bishoprick Garland:A South Shields Song for a brief mention of the earliest known version of the lyrics.

It might be best if this thread could be combined with this one Lyr Req: Blow Ye Winds Southerly.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 02:25 PM

Barques were a main type of sailing vessel. Not rare.

barque or bark

Wind blows from the South so he can sail back up to England.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 02:38 PM

Actually it's poetry, and a wind that's southerly sounds warmer and fuzzier. It's the opposite of the 'Blow winds, and crack your cheeks!" type thing.

That sounds good about the wind needing to be right for getting into the harbor, though. Just a minute while I go to Google Earth and see where the bar is at Newcastle.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 02:48 PM

Hoo boy. There is a huge sandbar paralleling the shore to the south of the harbor for Newcastle. It occurs to the north as well, but is much narrower.

We need expert advice from somebody who actually operates a boat. Where are the sea chantey guys when you need them?


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:54 PM

This site indicates that the Tyne river approaches are relatively straightforward, with only a strong onshore wind (I would estimate that would mean circa ENE to E being the worst) causing hazardous conditions, especially if in opposition to a strong ebb tide.

However this is a reflection of modern navigational conditions. A substantial breakwater extends from the south bank of the Tyne mouth, and must make a major difference to the passage. If the song predates the breakwater the comments would lose their relevance.

A wish for a southerly wind would indicate that the lover is somewhere to the south, if he is to be blown back to the singer. A southerly would not pose a problem to his entering the Tyne mouth, though it would then hinder passage upriver to Newcastle as the river takes a dogleg round South Shields, then another round Hebburn. See Map

This part of the coast gets its worst sea conditions from winds out of the North to East quadrant, and once set in such conditions can easily last a couple of weeks. Wishing for a southerly wind is pretty common among local seafarers, even today. In the days when a favourable wind was the only way to move ones ship the wishing must have been that much more fervent.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:11 PM

Oh yes, and to answer Leenia's doubt; folk hereabouts do say "It's blowing southerly" meaning that it is coming from the south. It seems to me most unlikely that when wishing for a wind from the north they would reverse the usage and ask/instruct that the wind blow southerly.

Those wanting a northerly could say "blow southwardly" and be grammatically correct, but I haven't encountered such usage. I am involved in a maritime community just a few miles south of the Tyne, and while local dialects and traditions do vary, I doubt that they are so radically different as to reverse the meaning in this case.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:09 PM

Okay.

Now to the big question: did non-quiche-eaters sail in barques? Can I sing a folksong with 'barque' in it and not be embarrassed?

Dictionary entries don't count. A dictionary will say anything.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

Don't know whether a picture might help more than a dictionary quote, this site will give you an idea how substantial a craft is meant by a bark (or barque). They were big if you are used to a dinghy, quite small if your frame of reference is an aircraft carrier.

Not sure where quiche would fit in, I tend to think that the smaller the boat the riskier, but then the longest voyages tended to involve larger craft. I wouldn't particularly care to tangle with any habitual sailor from the square-rig days, I reckon they must all have been pretty hard nuts.

As for being embarrassed to sing a song that includes reference to barques, well it wouldn't bother me, but then an ex morris-dancer has different standards from most where embarrassment is concerned.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:36 PM

<>

No, only gaylords named "Twinkle Toes" sailed.

What is your issue here??? It has not been clear why you have any doubts about barques...or about the answers you've already been given (or why you assume that none of the people who answered were "sea chantey folks"). A barque is a huge vessel (for the time)...comparable to a 'ship'. In fact, ships were sometimes converted into barques, and vice versa. The essential difference between a ship and a barque is that the aft-most mast has a 'fore and aft' sails (on a barque) as opposed to 'square' sails. Why don't you just Google the damn thing if you're so worried?


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 03:49 AM

There isn't a more macho shanty than "Paddy Lay Back" and in the second verse the hero says "I shipped aboard a Limey barque The Hotspur" (or sometimes The London)
Also from my days in South Shields I can think of several bars that might have prevented sailors (and landlubbers) getting to Newcastle:-)


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: GUEST,David Robinson
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:35 AM

sure that wasn't the attraction of the ladies @ The Shoreline Club young David ???


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:09 AM

I don't think it all that wise to question the manliness of the Newcastle sailors; after all the collier fleets were often said to be the nursery for the British Navy.

However Leenia is right to question the language of the song as it exists today. The original fragment published in Sharp's 1834 'Bishoprick Garland', and reprinted in the 'Northumbrian Minstrelsy' in 1882 by Bruce and Stokoe is only one verse.

"Blaw the wind southerly, southerly, southerly,
Blaw the wind southerly, south, or south-west;
My lad's at the bar, at the bar, at the bar,
My lad's at the bar whom I love best."


The first modern appearance of the longer song with additional verses seems to be a 1920 arrangement by William Gillies Whittaker (1876-1944), the Newcastle born musicologist, composer and Bach scholar. He published an SATB arrangement in 1920, and subsequently included it in his 'North Countrie Folk Songs for Schools', Curwen, 1921. Whittaker attributed the words to an old song by John Stobbs.

The only likely John Stobbs I can find wrote a couple of folk legends in verse under the pseudonym of John Š Kemp in the 1850's ('The shadowless man, a legend of the Delaval Family', and 'St Dunstan...a sequel to the shadowless man', 1857). Both of these books were printed in Newcastle upon Tyne by W R Walker.

So it seems likely that the version we are all so familiar with today, whether from our schooldays or from the singing of "Klever Kaff", can be traced back to a mid-nineteenth century poet or versifier. It could be worth trying to find out something more about John Stobbs.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: janemick
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:38 AM

take alook at the site for the three masted barque called the Belem on Wikipaedia.
site for BELEM


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: GUEST,leeneai
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:18 AM

Thanks, Dave S, that's the answer! An old-time usage of the term by an actual sailor.

Janemick, thanks for the link. It's a beautiful ship. Thanks to gnomad, too. I had no idea a barque was so substantial.

Gibb, if you're so dedicated to Google, go google 'badinage.'

New topic - now I'm curious about what looks like a huge sandy shoal off Newcastle. (see it on Google Earth, as mentioned above) What do you sailors say about that? Is it permanent? Did the coal ships have to wait in line to get past it, like airliners stacked up over and airport?

Do you suppose the big one to the south is 'the bar' mentioned in the song? And how did they know where it was when the water was too deep? And so forth.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:31 PM

The four-masted barque John Wright, called Padua during WW2, was constructed in 1926 in Germany, as a training ship.
Its maiden voyage was from Hamburg to Talcahuano, Chile, via Cape Horn; a route taken by many barques in sailing days.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:58 AM

"Lying off" from a port awaiting fair conditions, enough water, permission for entry or some other requirement, is still quite common. Even now when many vessels have sufficient power to overcome most adverse tidal flows a river mouth will often be dotted with craft waiting for something before they enter. Unlike planes which must keep moving or fall, ships will seek sufficient water to be safe but shallow enough to allow them to anchor.

Shields bar is mentioned in Here's the Tender Coming as a place where vessels lie off. I haven't checked on a chart, and don't get into those waters myself, but your sandbar to the south of the Tyne sounds like a good candidate (S. Shields being right on the river mouth, south side)

Knowing where the bar is would be down to a variety of things:
1)Wave motion changes visibly over shallower water, mariners lives depend on noticing such things
2)If conditions are good one may be able to see bottom (not a safe one to rely upon, but a good confirmation)
3)Local knowledge of the skipper and crew, many ships running a habitual if unscheduled route would build an impressive knowledge-base
4)Charts, used in conjunction with compass bearings to triangulate the vessel's position
5)If "feeling" for a particular channel a leadsman in the bows would help
6)Most importantly, pilots with good local knowledge have been a feature of the Tyne for around 500 years UK Pilotage history.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:17 AM

If you want to know about collier barques, the reconstructed Endeavour (Captain James Cook) is a good example.


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Subject: RE: hark the barque
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:20 PM

Thanks for the info, gnomad and Les.

Thanks too for the reference to 'Here's that Tender Coming.' I first heard that song by a young woman, whose almost-childish voice added to the pathos of it.


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