BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Nov 21 - 01:17 PM

A newspaper article had a language thing I dislike. I've named it 'the noun chain.' The article was about the arrest of two men who were stealing guns out of parked cars and selling the guns on Facebook (thanks, Facebook).

Here's the noun chain:

Authorities allege the men were identified as subjects of interest in
a larger stolen-gun trafficking conspiracy investigation...

"stolen-gun trafficking conspriracy investigation" Now that's too many nouns in a row. Amateur writers think that being concise means using as few words as possible, so they produce these noun chains. But if the reader has to stop and untangle them, it's irritating and bad for circulation.

My husband, a senior geologist, has mentioned how he had to tell younger staff to make explanations longer, to put more words in. He always got a surprised look in return. =

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 11:27 AM

Er, because you bragged about your proofreading prowess! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 09:51 AM

They started calling soldiers peacekeepers back in the 80's, and I remember thinking It isn't even 1984 yet!

And Steve Shaw, you have picked on me for typos, so kettle, pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 08:46 AM

edit
but they are not deliberate.
thats another gripe, those three letters of 'not' can overturn everything and if accidentaly absent it can cause disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 08:30 AM

George Orwell is an excellant example Bob. We are actually living an example of an attempt to follow the Big Trump.
On another note on language as thought tools, you have watched your pets dream which are absract thoughts of things that do not exist but they are deliberate.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 07:44 AM

1984 is the only novel I've ever read end-to-end since I left school (I was forced to read a couple at school in order to pass my Eng Lit 'O' Level). I've started a few others but generally found that once I'd put them down I couldn't pick them up again. 1984 is a good read...very prescient...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 04:19 AM

I thought that language as a tool of thought was pretty well covered by George Orwell in 1984. But that's only a second-hand opinion, I've not read it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 11:47 PM

silence?

The previous rant was a paraphrased Noam Chomsky although he is a bit mechanistic from my POV. The process of the miraculous thought is elegantly derived from the quantum universe as well as the megaverse.
In a sense we are practically halfway between both.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 08:34 PM

"Language as a tool of thought is wasted on many. They focus on the typo and not the thought."

Bullshit. That's just your excuse, and you're attacking people who think that your posts are just bollocks, an entirely respectable point of view. On this forum, very few people focus on typos, and, if you want to be honest with yourself, your "typos" are the result of sheer hurried, careless, unthinking, unreviewed typing. You also hide behind your alleged dyslexia, yet you can post pretty articulately when you want to. Odd, that. What I'd like to suggest to you is that good communication requires that you express yourself in simple, plain English. It's easy if you try. Still, if you'd rather disappear up your own obscurantist arsehole, as you frequently appear to do, don't let us stop you. It's nothing if not entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 08:10 PM

I believe there is even an invisible inner subconscious language that is shared by many and is called ESP because we don't know exactly what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 08:01 PM

My pet peeve is that language itself is a tool of thought. It appeared accidentally around 300,000 years ago. It is more than communication. Even bacteria and insects communicate. We have two voices the inner subconscious voice and the conscious voice. We don't seem to be able to access subconsious thought but it leaves a trace as real as dark matter leaves a gravitational trace. As a tool of thought we can describe things we can not see like the future. With this tool we no longer think by ourselves. We can obviously access knowledge from the living or dead. We can modify language with metaphor, thought and imagination.
Language as a tool of thought is wasted on many. They focus on the typo and not the thought. We may not have non human language concepts that can get us beyond the 2% of the known universe we live inside of. I've tried to demonstrate thinking outside the box which is naturally not understood by people devoted to use language only for communication and not a tool for thought. Perhaps we need another evolutionary accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 02:46 PM

I heard 'puter here in the U.S.A. in the early '80s.

The same doctoral candidate also used to say, "I'm Audi!"

For "Goodbye! I'm outta here!"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 09:59 AM

Tu l'as dit, bouffi!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 06:31 AM

Norfolk-Speak is so full of malapropisms that it's best to enjoy them. But being a retired teacher, I have to bite my tongue before starting to correct them.
Chester drawers. He dew or he dornt. Sustificate. TV Licence defective van. Puter. Git yer winter draws on, cos winter draws on.
I spend most of my time here surreptitiously giggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 09:48 PM

Owned
Example: Patriots owned the libs on Twitter.
Translation: White Nationists harrased and scared off Democrats.
What do you call it when a person litterally owns another person?

Sports example: The Astros owned the Red Sox.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 08:48 PM

Leeneia - Sacramento got more rainfall in one day that it has had in any one-day period in recorded history - it was a three-day storm that is still going on, and Northern California does not have the infrastructure to handle that sort of storm. And before that, Sacramento had more than 200 days without any rainfall at all. There has been localized flooding, but it's certainly not the worst I have experienced - the worst was 1986.


https://www.sacbee.com/news/weather-news/article255268351.html

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 05:42 PM

California got a sizeable storm, and they don't call it a storm, they call it a bomb cyclone. Hearing that on the news will help little children sleep at night - I don't think.

Kids pick up on this stuff. When I was six or seven, I noticed headlines in the newspaper box about the Army. The army, the army. I asked my mother - are we having a war? What a relief- she said no. Much later I realized the headlines were about the Army-McCarthy hearings.

The "bomb cyclone" brought 5.4 inches of rain. In 1977, Kansas City had a storm that brought 16 inches of rain. Twenty-five people died. The weather service refers to it as a rainstorm.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 04:17 PM

Now that is funny ... !

I remembered that the one I'm always hearing in movies is: "I['ll] miss you!" - "Me, too!" ... try to work that one out.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 12:42 PM

Ha! This reminds me of my husband. A couple of nights ago I screamed blue murder at the sight of a huge spider in the bathroom. My hero rushed forward and dispatched it bravely. The following exchange was in French:
Me (sobbing with gratitude): You are the most amazing man!
Him:(grinning broadly) So are you darling!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM

From the movies - and, I suppose, real life:

A: I love you!
B: Me, too!

A: I really want to see you!
B: Me, too!

Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 07:36 AM

Good'n!

I had been dogsitting for 2 weeks and the owners were coming home, and texted me I bet you're looking forward to sleeping in your own bed! I know I am!

Prompting me to ask why they wanted to sleep in my bed...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 02:46 PM

Following on from that, at the end of the match the BBC radio commentator said "In the first half, United had their trousers pulled down by Liverpool. In the second half, they just toyed with 'em..."

Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:43 PM

From the minute-by-minute match report on the BBC website just now:
Man Utd 0-4 Liverpool
I'm looking at a stunned United fan, stroking his chin. He has tears in his eyes.

Well if MY team were losing 4-0 and you came up to me to stroke my chin, I'd be bloody annoyed !

It's 5-0 as I type..:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:56 AM

Also dumb, that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:55 AM

Sign in the gents' toilet in Bude:

DUE TO THE COVID-19 OUTBREAK PLEASE KEEP A 2-METRE DISTANCE WHEN USING THESE TOILETS

Well I tried, dammit, but I couldn't make it go that far...

(And underneath that it said "Sorry for the inconvenience...")

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:56 AM

I bought a gizmo for descaling teeth the other day. It takes a single AAA battery. The "instruction manual" that was in the box (a piece of paper as big as a sheet of toilet paper) warned me that I mustn't mix old and new batteries...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 21 - 06:18 AM

At the foot of the escalator the sign said "Dogs must be carried." So I couldn't use it because I didn't have a dog...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: G-Force
Date: 22 Oct 21 - 06:01 AM

And when I see the instruction 'Keep away from children' I think 'I do, if I can help it'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: G-Force
Date: 22 Oct 21 - 05:54 AM

Every time I see 'This door is alarmed' I think in that case I'm bloody terrified!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 11:07 PM

Reading a fascinating article on dinosaurs with graphics and one said Click here for full-size image, and I was instantly afraid to click it.
Then I realized a) they didn't say *life*sized and b) idiot...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 21 - 02:11 PM

We've just had a correspondent on our regional news programme pronouncing the word "annually" "anyullee" (twice!): aargh!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Aug 21 - 11:40 AM

Thanks, meself.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Aug 21 - 09:00 AM

When watching the UK Channel 4 coverage of the Formula 1 Grand Prix qualifying, I often hear the commentator, when referring to a driver having improved his lap time by 0.15 of a second, say "He's improved by a tenth and a half".

A tenth and a half equals three fifths, not three twentieths. If they must insist on using fractions instead of decimal notation, then it would be better to say fifteen hundredths.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Aug 21 - 07:38 AM

Nice point, Meself.

In U.S. English, the future perfect is even more moribund than the past perfect.

While I recognize "will have got/gotten (U.S.)/reached/arrived at," etc.," as absolutely correct, I honestly doubt that I've ever used that tense, even in writing - at least not since translating Vergil/ Virgil in high school.

Steve, "five" and "ten" used this way have been ridiculously (viz., "extremely") common in America for many decades (though I assume you've guessed that).

Adverbial "with" ("go with," "come with") is, I believe, mainly a Midwestern habit but must be spreading.

Have we mentioned positive, utterance-initial "anymore"?:

"Anymore, social media is [sic] a menace."

See https://ygdp.yale.edu/phenomena/positive-anymore

I feel sure you will want to start using this as well. ASAP.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 21 - 05:44 AM

Absolutely with you there, Lighter.

Here's a couple that are so awful that I've decided to use them all the time from now on:

"I'm not quite ready yet: just bear with..."

"I'm a bit busy just now: can I call you back in ten?"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 25 Aug 21 - 04:32 PM

Then again, it can be used to a speculative future, as in, "By the time I get to Phoenix, she'll be rising", which technically should be, "By the time I will have got[ten] to Pheonix, she will have arisen".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 25 Aug 21 - 03:16 PM

And the idea of "by the time" having to do with a completed event or change would explain the "rule" regarding its necessitating the past perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 25 Aug 21 - 03:12 PM

Well, in matters of the English language, grammar and usage thereof, the distinctions between "right" and "wrong" are malleable - but the term "awkward" often applies in doubtful cases - as in this one. The expression "by the time" conventionally signals allusion to an event that has occurred or conditions that have changed or reached some point of finality between a previously referenced time and the time in question. If not "wrong", it can be "awkward" to use "by the time" to signal allusion to stasis. No doubt there are exceptions, and the context may make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Aug 21 - 01:06 PM

> you just can't use By the time this way

I worked like hell to get a doctorate in English decades ago, and this usage seems absolutely normal to me.

In "theory" (which I've only just now discovered online - or, I should say, "on line"), "by the time" should only be used with a past perfect verb.

But the sad, or totally innocuous, fact (depending on one's prejudices) is that the simple past often - very, very often - replaces the past perfect in other than very formal usage, especially when context makes the distinction immaterial. The meaning in the given example couldn't be clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Aug 21 - 11:31 AM

People using black lingo then forgetting about it. For example, they make a video and give it a title like this:

New Yorkers be makin' fake pizza

Then they forget all about talking that way in the rest of the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 08:18 AM

'Through put' sounds odd to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 07:34 AM

I am not sure why this is so wrong but you just can't use By the time this way:

He was a baby when his dad died in Afghanistan. By the time he turned 18, the war still wasn’t over.

When would be ok, but this is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 21 - 04:18 AM

I thought Mangania was now known as Personland?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Aug 21 - 03:55 AM

Oh, I speak fluent Manganese. Lovely people, the Mangans.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 21 Aug 21 - 02:41 AM

I don't know even 4 syllables of Manganese.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 12:44 PM

In a TV commercial, I heard a young woman get 4 syllables into "manganese".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 05:33 PM

Ahhhhh. Got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 09:23 AM

No, they are like mice. You see them out of the corner of you eye when you are doing something else, and they're irritating. In the case of language, the "something else" is reading or talking.

If I haven't said it already, a peeve of mine is "pushback." As in
"Rep. Max Gaetz pushes back on sex charges." Meaning what?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 07:39 AM

I want a pet peeve! Where do you get them? Are they like cats?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 08:02 PM

From buzzfeed:

People Are Spilling The Secrets They'll Take To Their Grave