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BS: Language Pet Peeves

Donuel 01 Jul 20 - 02:32 PM
Donuel 01 Jul 20 - 02:27 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Jul 20 - 02:22 PM
leeneia 01 Jul 20 - 01:10 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 20 - 01:27 PM
Mrrzy 30 Jun 20 - 11:59 AM
meself 30 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 20 - 06:35 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 20 - 10:29 AM
PHJim 29 Jun 20 - 09:29 AM
Mrrzy 27 Jun 20 - 06:26 PM
leeneia 27 Jun 20 - 02:39 PM
Mrrzy 26 Jun 20 - 06:51 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 20 - 04:40 PM
Mrrzy 26 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM
leeneia 24 Jun 20 - 06:01 PM
Donuel 24 Jun 20 - 04:28 PM
Lighter 24 Jun 20 - 04:21 PM
Mrrzy 24 Jun 20 - 04:12 PM
leeneia 24 Jun 20 - 01:02 PM
leeneia 24 Jun 20 - 12:59 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 20 - 04:34 AM
BobL 23 Jun 20 - 02:32 AM
Mrrzy 22 Jun 20 - 10:29 PM
Charmion 22 Jun 20 - 10:18 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 20 - 09:59 AM
BobL 22 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM
Mrrzy 21 Jun 20 - 01:12 PM
Mrrzy 21 Jun 20 - 12:35 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 20 - 05:40 PM
Doug Chadwick 19 Jun 20 - 04:18 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM
Lighter 19 Jun 20 - 03:49 PM
Doug Chadwick 19 Jun 20 - 02:52 PM
leeneia 19 Jun 20 - 01:09 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 20 - 12:03 PM
Mrrzy 19 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM
PHJim 19 Jun 20 - 08:23 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 20 - 08:19 AM
FreddyHeadey 19 Jun 20 - 07:56 AM
leeneia 19 Jun 20 - 12:53 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 20 - 01:18 PM
Donuel 18 Jun 20 - 12:59 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM
PHJim 18 Jun 20 - 10:41 AM
Mrrzy 16 Jun 20 - 12:23 PM
Nigel Parsons 16 Jun 20 - 06:53 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 20 - 06:41 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 02:32 PM

You can do better than dirty words


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 02:27 PM

Chitten the chat shootin the breeze
ticklin the ribs inventin degrees
piled higher and deeper BS is cheaper
Than Harvard, Wheaton or Yale

Learning to cook by hook or by crook
is like stealing from out of print books
The art of cuisine is almost obscene
in textures tastes and smells

Who puts the shish on your kabob
or relish on your hot dog
Who puts a pinch of salt on your egg
or sauce on your gonzofazoul

The Randy man can
he has a secret rhthym
that you can't understand
but the randy man knows

Who shaves so close his cheeks glow
it almost feels like peachy fuzz
What the randy man does with a can of
whipped cream very few have known

Who uses all the ice cream
to turn to steam when its on you
if he spills chocolate syrup
you can be sure he'll clean it all up

The randy man knows
all the perfect ways
to cure your weary woes
with hot buttered rolls


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 02:22 PM

For once I seem to be in agreement with The Guardian (albeit from 10 years ago).
First, remember the reader, and respect demands that we should not casually use words that are likely to offend.
Second, use such words only when absolutely necessary to the facts of a piece, or to portray a character in an article; there is almost never a case in which we need to use a swearword outside direct quotes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 01:10 PM

Most of the time when a person uses a foul word s/he's just being lazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 01:27 PM

Interesting piece in the Guardian from ten years ago, making some apposite points, and including an extract from their style guide:

"We are more liberal than any other newspapers, using language that our competitors would not. But even some readers who agree with Lenny Bruce that "take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government" might feel that we sometimes use such words unnecessarily.

The editor's guidelines are as follows:

First, remember the reader, and respect demands that we should not casually use words that are likely to offend.

Second, use such words only when absolutely necessary to the facts of a piece, or to portray a character in an article; there is almost never a case in which we need to use a swearword outside direct quotes.

Third, the stronger the swearword, the harder we ought to think about using it.

Finally, never use asterisks, which are just a cop-out.


As Charlotte Brontë put it: "The practice of hinting by single letters those expletives with which profane and violent people are wont to garnish their discourse, strikes me as a proceeding which, however well meant, is weak and futile. I cannot tell what good it does – what feeling it spares – what horror it conceals."

If the author of Jane Eyre had been a tabloid reader, she might also have observed that asterisks actually draw attention to swearwords, as well as offering readers the challenge of working out the difference between, say, ****s and ******s."


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 11:59 AM

I'm with Steve Shaw, or he's with me, on this one.

I had to watch a CNN clip just to find out what the "m-word" was.

Spoiler alert:






It was Mask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

"Using initials as in The w-word when avoiding saying Walk in front of your dog is fine, but doing that with any human over the age of spelling is infantilizing, condescending, and patronizing/ paternalistic. Either use the word or don't."

In Canada, we just had a popular, respected TV journalist have to abase herself before the nation, apologize, and present a Red-China-style self-criticism for having, within a planning meeting with her fellow journalists, uttered the title of an important book in Quebec politics that has the notorious, um, "n-word", in its title. So ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 06:35 PM

I note that Jay Rayner, my very favourite restaurant critic, is trying to be kind to restaurants during their troubled times in the pandemic, because, as he says, only an ars*ehole would give a bad review at the moment.

"ars*ehole." Ideal!


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 10:29 AM

If you're quoting someone who said "nigger" or "fuck," your choice should be either to not quote them at all or to say/type exactly what they said/typed. Putting in asterisks or saying things like "the n-word" is both pusillanimous and not quoting accurately. You can have fun with asterisks, on the other hand, as in "...and then I told the b*ast*ard to f*uck off..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: PHJim
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 09:29 AM

From: Mrrzy- PM
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:35 PM

Using definitions instead of the word so defined.

Using initials as in The w-word when avoiding saying Walk in front of your dog is fine, but doing that with any human over the age of spelling is infantilizing, condescending, and patronizing/ paternalistic. Either use the word or don't.
***************************************************************

Mrrzy - There are words that I don't feel comfortable saying, like "the N word". In that case, I will use the initial.

While that's the only one that comes to mind right now, I know that my dear departed grandmother would say "the F word" rather than "fuck" when she was quoting someone and I'm glad she did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 06:26 PM

Oh, sooo true!


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 02:39 PM

Mrrzy, I think it's past your bedtime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:51 PM

Hah!

This should be sad but it's tragic: 16-year-old TikTok star dead at 16.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:40 PM

Charlottesville now has a free bike rental program.
Well, you wouldn't want to keep it in a cage. ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM

Charlottesville now has a free bike rental program.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 06:01 PM

Lighter, I agree that advertisement is ignorant.
===========
I just saw a video that reminded me of two peeves:

crime spree: a spree is fun. Calling a series of crimes a spree minimizes the suffering of the victims, for whom it was not fun at all.

triggerman: Yuck. Instead of saying "Jones was the triggerman," say "Jones murdered Smith." Make the killer face what he did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:28 PM

I shouldn'ta oughta've told'ya'll but iffin I've said it once...


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:21 PM

Let's get serious, people.    (Note necessary comma.)

From a current, evidently expensive, American TV commercial. And yes, I   listened carefully several times:

"Including a full-size leave-in elixir which nine out of ten women said their hair appeared thicker and fuller in just one week!"

"Elixir" (hair goo) isn't the only problem here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:12 PM

Great line! Love English sometimes.

I like being corrected. How else can I learn?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 01:02 PM

I wonder what the critics would make of these apostrophes from lyrics by Peter Berryman:

'cause the girl you been cheatin' with's ridin' in the guy I been cheatin' with's truck.

I love this line, myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 12:59 PM

I just watched a YouTube video about language things narcissicists do. Now, I'm not sure 'narcissists' is the word they want, but whatever term you wish to employ for a verbo-jerk, the list is helpful:

Corrects others' grammar (includes apostrophes, I'm sure.)

Borrows technical jargon, often incorrectly

Directs conversation to a topic known to himself and no one else present

Makes it seem that others lose all credibility because of small mistakes.

Pretends to understand everything.

Claims to be logical without actually using logic.

Commits to ideas and will not change despite evidence.
==========
There were other points, but they didn't strike home with me the way some of those above have.

Unless in a parental or classroom situation, a normal person does not correct another's usage or apostrophes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM

I shouldn'ta oughta posted that?

I might could say something about living in Dixie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:34 AM

I seem to remember a conversation on the Quora website about these multiple contractions. Someone posting an innocent question about them received a bollocking for putting an apostrophe in the wrong place.... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 02:32 AM

Are you now telling me that I shouldn't've done it? No Steve, just being imprecise as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:29 PM

Fascinating. Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothing new to say... [And now it's a music thread.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:18 AM

Egregious -- ex gregis, or out of the flock. Latin. Now a secret code for Catholics, linguists and over-educated Olde Phartes.

Mrrzy, "bad rap" is not necessarily a corruption because it is also a colloquial phrase from the mid-60s, when the word "rap" acquired a whole host of odd extra meanings. (Remember :rap session"?) Among other things, it meant an accusation, so a criminal record became a "rap sheet". Thus, one might say that the "Access Hollywood" tape was a bad rap against Donald Trump, but unfortunately not bad enough.

But that usage of "rap" seems to exist now only in the phrase "rap sheet", so you're probably right that most people using it nowadays are confusing it with "bad rep".


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 09:59 AM

I must've typed that lots of times here. Are you now telling me that I shouldn't've done it? You haven't picked me up on it so I assume you can't've noticed... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM

"Must of" for "must have". Spoken as "must've" I can accept, but written?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:12 PM

Also bad rap when what is meant is bad rep[utation].


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:35 PM

Using definitions instead of the word so defined.

Using initials as in The w-word when avoiding saying Walk in front of your dog is fine, but doing that with any human over the age of spelling is infantilizing, condescending, and patronizing/ paternalistic. Either use the word or don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:40 PM

I think I've used it a number of times before on Mudcat, Doug. I've known that word for many years. I hope that I'm generally seen as trying to express myself clearly. I don't mind being pulled up if my verbiage looks a bit too fancy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:18 PM

Yes, that's it. You learn something every day!

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM

I tend to use it in the sense of outstandingly bad, Doug. I hope your dictionary agrees!


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:49 PM

> in clear, simple English.

Somewhere online (should be "on line," obviously), a filmgoer lamented that she couldn't fully enjoy the recent remake of "Emma" because it was too hard to "understand the old English dialogue."


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:52 PM

.... you might wish to consider whether there's anything wrong with saying things in clear, simple English.

I am not trying to be funny, Steve, but I had to look up "egregious" in a dictionary.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:09 PM

Yesterday I listened to a YouTube on 10 Things Narcissicists Do. One thing was correct others' grammar and usage. (This would be in personal settings such as conversation or social media.)

However, I think that when a person writes a book, he ought to maintain a higher standard. For example, know the difference between "definite" and "definitive." Also, give enough thought so that he isn't parroting weasel words.
==================
I find that I, too, have to be care about their, there, and they're. For some reason, 'their' is the one that wants to come out first, and that's odd, because 'there' must be more common.

And why do we so often use 'it's'
where 'its' should be
when 'it's', with its apostrophe,
is harder to type?


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:03 PM

I wasn't referring to you, but you might wish to consider whether there's anything wrong with saying things in clear, simple English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM

Eschew obfuscation!


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: PHJim
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:23 AM

My sister bought me a lovely coffee mug with "Grammar Police - Don't make me use my red pencil!"
She says, "Jim, You'll have to decide between correcting grammar and having friends."


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM

And I made two errors in that post. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:19 AM

Well, you could always stop reading Facebook... ;-)

I guess some people post quickly and don't review enough before posting. That never really bothers me. Unless the poster has set out to deliberately obfuscate, by trying to be too clever and tortuous with his words, (we have one egregious culprit here), the meaning is nearly always easy enough to glean. What peeves me is when mean-spirited people try to make hay over others' deficiencies (such as typos, spelling mistakes or punctuation errors). Invariably, the attacker makes plenty of errors themselves, and that's when I feel that it's legit to go to town on him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 07:56 AM

”dont overanalyze" you say,
"you really can't fight this stuff."

Yes, but

it really slows down my reading. I don't know how to skate over it.
On Facebook I'm getting so used to having to decide between there\their\they're ; your\you're ; to\too\two that when I read a perfectly well written piece I even find myself stopping to check - did they really mean 'their' or is there a different meaning to the sentence if they meant 'there' ?

I never(not for the last fifty years) used to think about it but now I even find myself writing a 'their', then stopping to check that I really did mean 'their'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:53 AM

It's easy to make fun of the language of people without much education. Yes, there are high-school dropouts who haven't thought through "I could care less." or "between you and I." Criticism of them is boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 01:18 PM

Anyway, people will continue to use very dodgy words irregardless of what we literate types might think... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:59 PM

Caring less is less caring than carelessly ignoring the whole damn thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM

Just take the expression as a single entity and don't over-analyse by breaking it into its individual words. We know that "well I'll go to the foot of our stair" hasn't got anything to do with stairs, or going anywhere at all. Just think of it as one big word that expresses utter gobsmackedness. I could care less, when you hear someone saying it, doesn't convey that they care quite a lot but that their caring might conceivably drop off, not to me anyway. I don't like it but there it is. Honestly, you really can't fight this stuff. If lots of people say it over a long period of time, then it's standard English. It's fine to say that you don't like it but there's not much point. I mention my hatred of albeit, prior to and on a daily basis only in these threads. They're all standard English and I use them excessively in knowing company with as much sarcasm as a I can muster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: PHJim
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 10:41 AM

Steve,
If we preface anything with "it isn't possible that...." it could also care less.will change the meaning to the opposite, but we can't just assume that everything we say is understood to be prefaced by "it isn't possible that..." or what we say would have no meaning.

You know that literally, "could care less" tells us nothing about how much you care except that you do care. A person who cares deeply about something could care a bit or a lot less, but a person who cares just a little bit could also care less.
Someone who doesn't care at all, couldn't care less.

Many folks say, "I haven't got no bananas" when they mean, "I haven't got any bananas." It's in common usage and I know what they mean, but it still makes me cringe.
Many also say, "Give your report to John or I when it's finished," when they mean, "Give your report to John or me when it's finished."
I know what they mean, but it still doesn't sound right.

I guess what I'm saying is that although I know I'll never be able to change the way people misuse the language, it can still be a "BS:Language Pet Peeve"


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 12:23 PM

They used to hang sheep, too.

I like (unpeeve, if you will), that people are hanged while pictures are hung.

And I don't mean During the time that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 06:53 AM

"They gone done in Caesar, albeit he was getting to big for his boots".

Nah, doesn't have the same ring to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 06:41 AM

I don't see snobbery of any kind in preferring plainer alternatives. Albeit stretches out to "athough be it," which we then have to rejig as "although it be," which isn't English at all. Whilst I acknowledge its antiquity (and regret that it didn't die out in Victorian times, as it threatened to), I can't excuse it on those grounds from being plain daft. They used to hang little boys for stealing sheep in those days too.


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