BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jul 21 - 04:46 PM

George HW Bush publicly used the words kick ass referring to what he would do to Saddam. His son relied on lawyers to make the courts determine his election instead of voters. Trump uses the f word and tried to overthrow Congress via violence to declare election victory. He put well placed loyalists in the Pentagon, FBI and CIA to improve his chances of a coup.

We carp about it now but even the Romans wrote letters of the downhill decorum in the quality of leadership. power corrupts etc.

The main difference between Hitler and Trump is that Hitler ordered mass murders of disloyal dissidents. Trump only instigated riots, assaults and kidnapping. He wanted officers to shoot demonstrators in the legs at the border and on our streets but there was resistence.

Today we are not all using the words treason, sedition and insurrection correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 15 Jul 21 - 03:59 PM

Yesterday I saw a video of a man named Donald Trump at a podium and he spoke of kicking ass against his opponents. He used some other vulgar phrase, but I can't recall it.

It's vulgar.
It's dangerously vague. What's he inspiring this time?
It insults the listener, as if to "You aren't important enough to hear good English."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 05:52 AM

"England football fans have been celebrating the team reaching their first European Championship semifinal for 25 years..." (BBC Radio 4 news this morning).

Cor, just think how long we'll be celebrating for if we get to the final...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 May 21 - 03:48 PM

If that had been the headline I would not have been peeved. I know what they *meant* - I objected to what they actually wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:03 PM

The little boy was a car driven by his mother, the first driver. He was shot by a person driving a different car - another driver.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 May 21 - 04:36 PM

Ok the headline was about the 6yo shot in a road rage incident by "another driver" - was the baby at the wheel?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 03:42 PM

Yes, and know-it-alls are still objecting.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 03:33 PM

It was repurposed thus at least six hundred years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 02:04 PM

That is what They is for... He, She or It, depending on context. Repurposing a plural into a singular. You have seen that before, haha!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 12:38 PM

Not a peeve. I've learned a new word. Those banners that we see at the bottom of newscasts, usually unrelated to the story being discussed, are called chyrons.

Learn all about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKx5TzW0URo

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 11:49 AM

Steve: we are not deceived. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 11:48 AM

A few years ago there was a long and worthy mudcat thread about all the variants we have created of the missing second-person plural. Y'all, you all, youse, all y'all, etc.

In Scotland I encountered something that sounded like "yiz". Is that plural?

Now what we need is a pronoun which means "he, she or it" depending on circumstance.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 12:20 PM

I always do the same deliberate mistake of typing "Viola!" for that exclamation, Nigel. It's a kickback against the pretentiousness of some people for whom using unnecessary foreign phrases is a sine qua non...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 12:15 PM

I believe "y'all" is becoming more popular due to - wait for it ... the internet. Some years back, it would be a clear indication of a Southern American; now, not so much. Where I grew up (Central/Eastern Canada), "you all" was not uncommon, but "y'all" unheard of. "Yous(e)" is common where there was significant Irish settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 11:38 AM

No vaguer than "resist" or "react."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 10:56 AM

From: Steve Shaw
"...but tried it and it was OK, though I haven't bothered since." . . .

. . . to avoid buttery drips on the trousers, and make sure you've had five pints before you eat it. Viola!

Nice try, but mentioning one musical instrument is not enough to make this a music thread ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 10:08 AM

New peeve: push back. A vague phrase used by TV journalists who are too lazy or busy to be specific.

"Today Matt Gaetz pushed back against charges that he had [insert name of criminal or inappropriate thing to do]."
===============
I don't know what a poppadom is, but that would be a cute name for a small, fuzzy dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 09:15 AM

When I were a student, Jos, we thought nothing of downing six pints of Bank's bitter and then going for a biryani with extra fried rice and two poppadoms...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 08:27 AM

I'll leave Y'all to you Yanks (British usage of "Yanks" there...).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 07:56 AM

You used to be plural only when Thee was the singular.

You is now ambiguous, could be plural or singular.

Y'all is plural, leaving You as an unambiguous singular. Useful.

Also Southern US- here is where I am, there is where you are, yonder is somewhere else. Also useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 06:57 AM

"Y'all" means "the two or more of you" or, sometimes, "the one of you as a representative of a group."

Period. And it's useful.

It's used in speech every day by everybody who grew up in the South, regardless of education, class, or ethnicity. Not even the most pedantic Southern English teacher takes notice - because they use it too.

It's definitely not fading out. It might even be spreading northward.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 06:45 AM

1. I don't like vinegar on my chips.
2. I don't like tomato ketchup (it ruins the taste of tomato for no good purpose).

3. Five pints? Yes, especially after a good long walk finishing in a decent pub. But would I want a chip butty afterwards? It probably wouldn't occur to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 05:55 AM

"...but tried it and it was OK, though I haven't bothered since."

You must be doing it wrong. For a start, you need chip shop chips. They must be overloaded with salt 'n' vinegar. Take one slice of terrible white bread. Butter it thickly (when you bite into the butty your teeth should be leaving little cliff edges). Stork will do at a pinch. Load one half with chips then fold it over. Tommy K optional. Two basic rules should be followed: sit over your plate (or newspaper wrapping) to avoid buttery drips on the trousers, and make sure you've had five pints before you eat it. Viola!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 05:10 AM

Y'all. - you all; you people, usage southern US
Perhaps its fading out like 'race creed or color'
I am not sure if can be used both affectionately or aggressively but it is a southern thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 03:55 AM

I thought "sarnie" was probably a scouse thing but its origins are uncertain. Some answers I found point to the OED which apparently indicates that the use of "sarnie" popped up in 1961 and is believed to be from a northern England dialectical pronunciation of "sand" from "sandwich."

I was familiar with both this and "butty" from my years in North Wales, I'm not sure about Norfolk where I've lived my last 20.

I think my choice of word usually depends on the filling, eg. a cheese sandwich but a chip (or bacon) butty.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 03:16 AM

I reached middle age before I even heard of a chip butty. It struck me as a strange idea, but tried it and it was OK, though I haven't bothered since. I have also heard people say 'bacon butty' and maybe 'jam butty' - but never 'egg butty' or any of the others. I think it is a North / South thing, to do with where you grew up, not where you live now.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 06:08 PM

I had one of those cases where my mind is thinking something that 'I' am merely listening to. On awakening. So on this awakening my mind was telling me type:

"I have some issues with a language which occasionally puts a 'p' in front of a word and then fails to pronounce it."

I say 'ptooie' to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 03:00 PM

It could be, if you made a sardine sarnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 02:53 PM

And here I thought a sarnie was something to do with sardines.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 12:19 PM

Twee words get my goat. My two most detested are hubby (Mrs Steve is banned from using that) and sarnie. I'm clenching my buttocks here, even thinking about those two. It's a sandwich if you must. But in reality it's a butty. Egg butty. Bacon butty. Dripping butty. Fish finger butty. Cheese butty. Chip butty. You may call it a sandwich if it's toasted or if you bought it at Marks and Spencer. At a stretch, it can be a ham sandwich. There is no "chip sandwich" and there never has been. And my mum ran a chippy for ten years. Almost as bad as hubby are the related terms "my better half" or "my significant other." "The missus" is just about OK but "the wife" is not. I can just about take "'er indoors."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 11:32 AM

I guess I am old. Or the books I read are...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 04:00 AM

For me, the name Guy would only bring the effigy to mind in the phrase "Penny for the Guy", when kids in the street are trying to extract money from me in the early days of November.

Even if someone was alluding to a person's scruffy appearance, I would never expect "Guy" to be attached to "regular". They would more likely say "He looks a right scarecrow".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 08:56 PM

The use of "already" as a tag at the end of a request, indicating impatience, is indeed a Jewish importation into American English, representing the Yiddish "shoin".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 05:22 PM

Guy Fawkes effigy-looking, quoi.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 02:56 PM

... poorly dressed, hair like straw, and otherwise unpresentable-looking.

Boris the regular Guy?


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 01:41 PM

Hmm ... I always heard 'regular guy' as meaning somebody unremarkable, but dependable, trustworthy, unpretentious, and 'one of the boys'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 12:39 PM

A regular Guy, capital G, (I *did* specify) means -or meant, in my youth and folly- poorly dressed, hair like straw, and otherwise unpresentable-looking. When did that go away?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 12:24 PM

Now that Amazon Prime has put out a new series about Leonardo, here we go again with the "da Vinci" nonsense. It's in the headline of the news item about it on the BBC website and it's repeated throughout the article. "Da Vinci" is not his surname. It refers only to the place he comes from. Calling him "da Vinci" is as daft as calling Henry VIII "the Eighth" or Eric "the Red." Leonardo will do fine...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 10:56 AM

Anyone know how far back we need to go to find the OPs for the 'regular guy' and 'already' contentions?

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 10:47 AM

US: Johnny, will you hurry up and finish your dinner already.

It means the same thing, it's an ironic use of the word, wishing the meal was finished. Already.

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 10:44 AM

Nipping out to roll a fag always causes problems...

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 10:15 AM

Taking off editor hat and calmly leaving to do something else ...

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 09:06 AM

I very seldom have heard 'already' used as a future tense in the U.S. It seems more like a term used by some ethnic group(s) Jewish use? If someone did use to to me, I'd have no problem understanding....but....


It would be far more common to hear "He has already finished...X"

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: G-Force
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 09:03 AM

In the UK, 'he's a regular guy' means he shits every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 08:41 AM

SPB I respect you and your posts, but to me this OP comes off as more pique than pick.

There is no difficulty in understanding the use of the word 'already' in your OP. It may have some immigrant history in the way other languages express when their users switch to English. It may be related to the German 'waiting for the verb' phenomenon.

Whereas, in my experience we have this.

I don't know if UK or Canada or the many English speaking parts of the world have figured out a way to fix this, but it is my constant reminder to not be too proud of my wonderful English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 08:36 AM

I've not heard "regular guy" in the UK either.

I think "quite good" can vary depending on context and tone of voice. "I think I did badly here"/ "no, what you did was quite good" would be complimentary and encouraging".

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 08:36 AM

”I cannot recall hearing "he's a regular guy" ever being used in the UK. I don't think anyone here would imagine it as an insult.”

Me neither, Raggy. It’s simply not a part of the UK lexicon.

The one that grates with me is, “I couldn’t care less” (UK) v. “I could care less” (US). The US version clearly doesn’t mean what they think it means!

And the strangest expression I’ve heard from an American in recent times was ‘deplane’, meaning to disembark from an aircraft.

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 07:45 AM

I cannot recall hearing "he's a regular guy" ever being used in the UK. I don't think anyone here would imagine it as an insult.

I am curious as to why Mrrzy thinks it's an insult here.

The use of "quite good" in my experience means exactly that, it is quite good, not too bad, acceptable.

Again I wonder why Mrrzy thinks otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 07:21 AM

I am expecting the mudelves to add this conversation to the language peeves thread...

---

Good call, Mrrzy! ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Annoying Language Differences
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 07:19 AM

He's a regular guy = US compliment, UK insult [capital G guy]

Quite good = very good US, not very good UK [we had a British biss who wondered why managers kept insulting their own staff]

Interestingly if you are Deaf then referring to someone as "very hard of hearing" means describing them as having better hearing than someone who is only a little hard of hearing...