BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Jan 21 - 06:24 PM

"Militia" used for any group of fruitcakes who buy soldier's garb.

I have a friend who is well-read about history, warfare, weapons, etc. I mentioned that a video on YouTube said that on Jan 6th, rioters were within 60 feet of the Senators and Representatives in hiding. He told me not to worry - that if the "militia" had got too close, the cops in suits with the automatic handguns would have mowed them down, Walmart helmets and all.

See what I mean? The so-called militia was under-armed, had made no plan, didn't know what they were up against, and were risking their lives for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 06:02 PM

Ooh today a NYT headline read Treat yourself to a Parisian apéritif that is easy to make at home.

But it was about an *appetizer* -not an apéritif, which is a before-dinner drink.

The NYT! I expect better from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 05:12 PM

I have a lycée-aged memory of going behind the little kids' classes to sneak cigs, hearing a familiar tune, going over to listen and realizing they were singing the multiplication table.

When I learned that song, I did not yet speak French. I thought I was in music class.

No wonder I still don't know my multiplication table.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 04:25 AM

I seem to recall that we moved to that more economical version as we got a bit older, Jos, eight or nine perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 03:01 AM

When I was at school we didn't clutter up our times tables by saying 'times' every time. It was 'Once two is two, two twos are four, three twos are six ... all the way to 'twelve twelves are a hundred and forty-four'.
No stopping at 'ten times' when you had to learn to calculate in pounds, shillings and pence.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 02:49 AM

I have never heard 'on accident'.
I really dislike 'on the weekend'. It's 'at the weekend', with 'on' being used for a particular day: 'on Friday', 'on Saturday' etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 10:00 PM

I have not heard times used for multiply. Multiplied by, yes, as in six times six. But not Times six by six to get 36.

I get the same Not on your Nelly to the phrase "on accident" (*by* accident!)...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 08:24 PM

I disagree, Nigel. I can't see anything wrong with that. Like you, I imagine, I chanted my times tables in primary school ad nauseam: one times two is two, two times two is four, three times two is six (I'll let you argue the "is/are" there, but I'm sticking with "is")... I'm pretty sure that the expression "times tables" and the verb "to times" are natural derivatives of that. And there isn't much point arguing against them: their usage is so common that you'd really have to admit that they're standard English. I rather like both, actually. I like the informality, and I'm sure that they are friendlier means of expression to small children for teachers to use. If you don't like them, I fear you'll have to consider it another battle lost...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 05:48 PM

At the same time, let's not lose 'multiply'.
Too often I have heard "times it by" rather than "multiply it by".
I thought it was a linguistic aberration by the children until, in a parent/teacher evening (early 1990s) I was told "The test was scored out of fifty, so we had to times it by two to get the percentage"! . . .Cringe!. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 03:02 PM

People now rarely use 'thrice', but lately I often read or hear 'two times'.

Let's not let 'twice' go the way of 'thrice'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 05:49 AM

Yes, I realised that I wasn't happy with my post but I realised it only after I'd sent it.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 05:40 AM

But it is a bit of a rubbishy headline, with which we can probably agree.

No, I can't agree with that headline.
Or did you mean that we can probably agree that it is a rubbishy headline?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 04:40 AM

I see what you mean. But if she'd died on New Year's Eve, and he'd been charged a year before that, the charging would hardly have been "news," would it? I suppose that I subconsciously processed that possibility out of it. But it is a bit of a rubbishy headline, with which we can probably agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 04:14 AM

It is not "New Year's Eve" that causes the ambiguity. Was the soldier charged a year before her death, for a rape that took place earlier, or did the alleged rape take place a year before her death?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 08:10 PM

All that was needed there was to leave "New Year's Eve" out of the headline. I did find one source that actually did just that. A good copy editor would have pointed out that the New Year's Eve bit wasn't at the essential core of the story (which is what headlines are supposed to throw at us) and could easily have been included in the body of the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 11:31 AM

Here is a weirdly ambiguous headline:

Fort Bliss Soldier Charged with Raping Fellow Soldier a Year Before Her New Year's Eve Death

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 09:16 AM

Freshman essays are also full of 'in terms of isms'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 08:18 AM

A phrase I really despise is "in terms of". People seem to use it at random instead of thinking about what they really mean. Usually they just mean "in" or "on".
For example, in an interview on Radio 4 yesterday, discussing American–British relations, Dominic Raab said:
“I think we’ve seen some pretty shocking scenes in terms of Capitol Hill ...”.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 11:46 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 10:29 AM

The spelling might be different outside of the US.

I have heard as part of "totes amaze" for "totally amazing" but I wouldn't expect to hear it used by anyone who consiiders themself to be an adult.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 10:12 AM

It hadn't reached my bit of the UK. I looked it up, and according to the Urban Dictionary website, it is:

"Totz toht-z
–adverb
1. wholly; entirely; completely.
2. Slang for totally

etymology:
Originates out of Reed college in Portland, Oregon."

It isn't a word I am likely to use any time soon. It seems to be a rough equivalant of "defo" - another word I am not in the habit of using.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 09:58 AM

Is totz not a word outside the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 04:49 AM

"oh, totz!" clearly means the same as "glory". If in doubt, refer to Humpty Dumpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:05 PM

"oh, totz."

Translator's note, please...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 07:23 PM

Oh, totz!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 10:59 AM

Yes, and we have English opera singers singing Mozart. We're good internationalists here. By the way, be careful what you see as nitpicking if you ever come over here: never, for example, casually confuse Yorkshiremen with Lancashire lads such as myself. We may sound alike to the uninitiated, but we're chalk and cheese, and getting us mixed up will earn you a sharp, non-socially-distanced rebuke. You can distinguish the Yorkshireman quite easily, by the way, because his wallet pocket is sewn up. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 10:10 AM

I have that song by the Clancy Brothers. Glad to give you a nit to pick!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 07:48 AM

Some years ago, in a lane near Cardiff, there were multiple bends with "SLOW" painted before each bend.
Some wag added "QUICK, QUICK" before the third "SLOW"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 07:31 AM

Of course, we frequently encounter horrors such as "more slower..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:37 AM

The best road sign I have seen was in Ireland. On the approach to a bend, painted in big white letters on the road, was the word SLOW. Further round the long bend was the word SLOWER.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:20 AM

No need. Go slow is perfectly good English, "slow" serving as the adverb.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 02:48 AM

Way back in my student days, we had a big red "GO SLOW" road sign on the wall.
It took a visiting Japanese student to ask whether it should not read "GO SLOWLY".
It took the rest of us a while to come up with a grammatically sensible explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 07:56 PM

"there is a great Irish song about the weather, patchy fog fog fog patchy fog fog fog patchy fog fog foooooog, rise and follow Charlie..."

That's a Scottish song, not Irish. It's called Sound the Pibroch. Do try to get at least something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:38 PM

Fifteen Hundred!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:38 PM

"Apache fog".
Is that a weather condition seen following an "Indian Summer"?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 05:54 PM

Yebbut you get sleet and hail hopelessly mixed up. Do try to learn from your colonial masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 05:32 PM

Hee hee [I proofread!] there is a great Irish song about the weather, patchy fog fog fog patchy fog fog fog patchy fog fog foooooog, rise and follow Charlie...

Here, if it's over water, it is usually called mist, rather than fog.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 01:03 PM

That should have been phrasal. Don't you just love text prediction that knows better than you!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 01:01 PM

We have lots of "patchies" in our weather forecasts. Patchy fog, patchy rain, patchy drizzle, even patchy frost. It's the non-committal way of saying that, in spite of the fact that we have the world's finest computers and the most talented modellers, we can't tell you whether you'll get these types of weather or not where you live. We also have "chance of...", "scattered showers," "sunny spells/periods/intervals/breaks" and "possibly with the odd rumble of thunder."

One dictionary I just consulted referred to ""wrap up" as a phrase verb. That makes a qualifying word following it an adverb, I guess. It may be informal, but "wrap up warm" is clear and effective in its message!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:46 PM

Many years ago, I was listening to late night radio, when the host read the local weather report. It contained a reference to "a patchy fog". (get it? Apache?)

The guy stopped in mid-sentence and mumbled something about.."what happens if there's a 'Navaho fog' or a 'Comanche fog'... and he started giggling at his own joke... then completely lost it and began sputtering and choking in an effort to STOP laughing. It must have taken him several minutes to compose himself and get back to whatever he was supposed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:34 PM

"Wrap up warm" er... are you my mum? And it's 'warmly' - adverb please.


In my post above (15 Jan 21 - 04:25 AM), I wanted to write "wrap up warm" but, knowing this is a thread about language, I thought someone might pick up the need for the adverb. Still, "wrap up warmly" seemed clumsy. In the end, I chickened out and wrote "wrap up in warm clothes".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:30 PM

I think "wrap up warm" is fine, actually. There's no rule that sez that an adverb has to end with -ly, or that one that does end with -ly can't evolve into one that doesn't. I'm only guessing, but I suspect that the injunction "wrap up warm" is commoner than "wrap up warmly." In that context, "warm" is still an adverb. If enough people use a construction for long enough, it becomes standard English whether we like it or not. Another battle lost, I fear!

And I'd far sooner hear a weather presenter advising me to wrap up warm than telling me that "five degrees will feel more like minus one in that breeze" which is just gibberish! How many people have an accurate and objective understanding of what "five degrees" or "minus one" feels like? Is that with your coat on or off? When you're wet or dry? Felt on your hands, your feet or your face? Whether you're fat or thin? With your thermal knickers on or off?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:38 AM

Perhaps Dylan was actually talking to a hen, exhorting it to produce an egg on his bed?
I suppose quite a few people haven't studied languages/grammar at any depth, so the words 'transitive' and 'intransitive' wouldn't mean much to them.
I'm always put on alert when someone says, "I don't mean to be rude but..." or "I'm not going to lie to you but...". The 'but' means they jolly well do and will!
Weather forecasters - oh yes! "Wrap up warm" er... are you my mum? And it's 'warmly' - adverb please.
"The weather out there..." Where else would it be? Inside my house?
The older I get, the more crotchety I become. I should wrap up warm and lay down.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:09 AM

And there is sea fog, of course.
Sometimes the sea fog drifts inland.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:54 AM

Which reminds me of a modern irritant that's spreading like a virus: "I won't lie to you..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:49 AM

I wanted to lay the duvet in the bed.

So I made the duvet lie on the bed.

The duvet lay on the bed.


Dylan wanted the lady to lie across his big brass bed. She was a bit reluctant, so he gently laid her across his big brass bed. And then he... (stoppit, Stephen...)

I hope he'd laid a comfortable mattress on the bed first and made sure it was lying on it properly. I won't lie to you, it isn't my favourite song, so just lay off, will you...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:40 AM

Er, there is such a thing as hill fog.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:36 AM

I once rather fell for a weatherforecaster whose teleprompter said something about "ground fog" and right after saying that he stopped, looked offscreen, and said Ground fog? Of course it's GROUND fog! If it weren't on the ground, it'd be up in the air and be CLOUDS!

(Did you notice how neatly this came back to language peeves?)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:24 AM

I think I may have mentioned it somewhere earlier in the thread - but it is so common it does no harm to bring the subject up at regular intervals.

Maybe it's all Dylan's fault:
"Lay lady, lay ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:16 AM

An advert came on the TV recently for a mattress. I wasn't paying all that much attention until the person talked about 'laying' on it.
I bristled (typical retired teacher).
I've noticed that these days, 'lay' is often misused for 'lie'.
One lays eggs and bricks, or in the past one lay down.
"I was laying there" sounds to me as if a chicken is speaking!
I wonder if people dislike 'lie' because it also means to tell a lie?
Anyone else hate the misuse of 'lay'?