BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 07:38 PM

I still fight that one, Jos. Not because I think I can win it back, but because the people who use it when they mean "raise the question" are just pretentious and pig ignorant! !

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 05:17 PM

I'm still a lone voice fighting the 'begging the question' battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 04:08 PM

"Meself, whatever people are saying, "on behalf of" means for the benefit of, or in the place of." ... um .... Why are you telling me that? Was there something I said that led you to believe I was unaware of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 03:59 PM

Begging the question in its original meaning refers to a circular argument, one in which the conclusion is assumed to be true even before the question is asked, thus: "God exists because it says so in the Bible. And the Bible is the word of God." Petitio principii, an informal logical fallacy. Unfortunately, you'll raise an eyebrow these days if you use the expression in that way. Today, most people use it pretentiously to mean raising the question, to the extent that this degraded usage is now standard English. A battle lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 01:56 PM

Doug Chadwick no, it was just a movie. Weird, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 01:26 PM

"Begs the question." I looked it up.
==========
Begging the question means "to elicit a specific question as a reaction or response," and can often be replaced with "a question that begs to be answered." However, a lesser used and more formal definition is "to ignore a question under the assumption it has already been answered." The phrase itself comes from a translation of an Aristotelian phrase rendered as "beg the question" but meaning "assume the conclusion."
===========
Hmm. All this time I thought "beg the question" meant "ignore the question." Now I see that the phrase means so many different things that from now on I intend not to use it.


Meself, whatever people are saying, "on behalf of" means for the benefit of, or in the place of.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 11:50 AM

One that's become prevalent, in North America, at least: "on behalf of" meaning "on the part of"; e.g., "there was a great deal of nonsense on behalf of Giuliani" meaning "there was a great of nonsense on the part of Giuliani [on behalf of someone else]".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 10:22 AM

Good idea, but I gave up Tesco a while ago. They kept overcharging me and refusing to honour their policy of refunding double when a customer is overcharged.

But I have an Aldi on one side of the road and a Lidl just opposite it on the other side. Maybe I'll pick one of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 09:38 AM

If they say "whereby" just butt in quickly and say "Tesco..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 09:26 AM

I keep coming across people using 'whereby' when they mean 'where'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 04:20 AM

......how can a *movie* have a guest star?

Perhaps when it is part of a series - "The Movie"; "Return of the Movie"; "Movie III, the Next Generation" - with a regular cast. The guest star would be someone well known, but not for that genre, who joins them for one film.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Dec 20 - 10:37 PM

Not a *pet* peeve as I never saw it before, but how can a *movie* have a guest star?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Dec 20 - 01:41 PM

Foe, snicker...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 20 - 01:38 PM

Its the difference between being on the A list or the B list on the talk circuit. When the highest executive in the world is incapable of formal speech it is pathetic. Trump jibberish proved untranslatable into Japanese. Japan has a fairly formal culture.

My Asian friend makes himslf understood despite some very strong accents. But I know I am missing up to half of what he is saying. I think it is likely he's missing half what I say.
1/2+1/2=1 understanding

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM

"Let's celebrate colour in the way people express themselves informally."

That's a beautiful thought, Steve. Good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 20 - 06:46 AM

People who write ex cathedra don't have to be careful. Bragging that I take some care isn't bragging at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 20 - 06:31 AM

Steve writes from the throne, Trump talks from a barstool and can't write.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 20 - 06:12 AM

I try to TYPE decent English on this board. I review what I've typed in the hope that any errors or absurdities that get through are solely down to the fact that I mislaid my reading specs or down to an undetected bit of "assistance" from predictive text or spellchecker. I'm not bothered about anyone else's foe passes :-) as long as they don't challenge mine. Spoken word is not the same. We shouldn't be quick to pick up on what people say off the cuff. Let's celebrate colour in the way people express themselves informally. Let's cringe and delight in equal measure, preferably silently...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 20 - 11:32 PM

Alot of people are saying they are peeved bout the way I talk I talk lika stable gene yus I talk like bing bing bong bong and they complain they complain about cohesion coherent sea and comprehenchmen but you understand zackly what I'm sayin I tell ya it drives them crazy cuz you unerstand what I'm sayin. See you get it. Those fake news light wait journalists don't getit but you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Dec 20 - 07:06 PM

In my day, you "played" specific sports, like baseball, but you "participated" or "took part in" sports generally.

I first noticed teens talking about "playing sports" in the late '70s.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Dec 20 - 04:22 PM

What does one do with sports if not play them? Or is it ok in plural?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: ripov
Date: 03 Dec 20 - 09:01 AM

"play sport"
play football, yes
play baseball, yes,
but play sport, no,
you can sport(and play)on Flora's holiday
historically sport refers to amusement, or entertainment in the song            Wednesbury Cocking (I think Wednesbury is correct,it's in th right area but I've never heard of Wedgebury)in th DT)it refers to placing bets, a very healthy pastime

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 11:05 AM

Ooh unpeeve... NPR just said And Trump lied and said x instead of Trump claimed x without evidence. Good on NPR.

Meanwhile WashPo is touting recipes for potato latkes. How about fried potato latkes, eh.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 09:07 AM

"set to"

It's everywhere:

Debenhams stores are set to close ...
The covid19 vaccine is set to be rolled out ...
The queen is set to spend Christmas at Windsor ...

It makes me think of a long row of up-ended dominoes, all set up and waiting for somebody to give the one at the end a push.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM

INCREDIBLE
It means impossible to believe.
I have always felt the word is mostly misused.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 03:16 PM

It shouldn'ta oughto've...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 02:11 PM

The problem isn't whether he said "If we had taken precautions" or "If we had been a bit more careful" - it's whether he said "If we had taken precautions ..." (I'm happy with that), or "If we'd've taken precautions ..." (which is not the English I learned many years ago).

Strangely, that construction sounds OK to me in French or Spanish.
English: "If I had done ..." (good), "If I would have done ..." (not so good), but it seems OK translated as: "Si j'aurais fait ..." and "Si hubiera hecho ...".

Did it come in with the Common Market, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 01:30 PM

If the professor has been researching Covid, he may be absolutely exhausted and can be forgiven a lapse in diction, perhaps a reversion to his childhood speech. There's no reason to accuse him of not thinking.

I believe a simple "If we had taken precautions in December..." would convey what he meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 12:08 PM

The 'proper' phrasing would be, I suppose, "if we were to have done ... ", but "if we'd've done" ("if we had have done ... " or "if we would have done ... ") strikes me as acceptable colloquial English, even for academics. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 10:19 AM

I keep hearing, for example, "If I [or you, they, etc.] had done something ..." replaced by "If I'd 've done something ...", "If you'd 've done something ...".
It was used on the radio this lunchtime when a professor, who was talking about how the virus would look in a few months' time, included the phrase "if we'd 've been a bit more careful in December ...".
Did he think he was saying "if we had have been ..." (or "if we had of been", even)?
Or was he saying "if we would have been ..." (or "if we would of been")?

Or do the people who use this expression not think at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 27 Nov 20 - 04:33 AM

I've heard of 'krill' but I don't suppose you mean you are a tiny sea creature.
Maybe 'crill' should be added to the 'New words / usage' thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Nov 20 - 04:12 AM

"Hailed" used without "as", for instance "He was hailed a hero". Makes me crill.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 05:08 PM

Boy trapped in refrigerator eats own foot

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM

Ok, this from Newsweek:

Child Dragged From House As California Highway Patrol Evicts Families From Vacant Homes

Um, if they are vacant, nobody can be dragged out of them, child or no, as nobody is *in* them.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 03:26 PM

Fur-weather friends, Jos? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 03:02 PM

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 01:06 PM

When I had cats I thought of them as friends, rather than possessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM

Jos, I'm with you on the pets. I am my cat's owner, not her mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 07:21 AM

"Doesn't baby daddy suggest a father who's absent and flaky?"

Not necessarily. It's just that that is often the case.
But he could just be living elsewhere but keeping in touch and being supportive.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 06:42 AM

Doesn't baby daddy suggest a father who's absent and flaky?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 06:20 AM

I think "baby daddy" is really a pronunciation of "baby's daddy". It doesn't bother me.

What I really hate is cat or dog owners being referred to as the animal's mummy or daddy - yuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 06:08 AM

I don't think I have EVER heard "caNIBBLEism". It's the sort of thing you sometimes hear from people whose first language isn't English.

Leeneia, have you ever heard a Bristol accent - I think you'd love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 05:31 AM

And that reminds me of that inane bit in She's Leaving Home:

"She breaks down and cries to her husband
Daddy our baby's gone..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 08:41 PM

My clients often talk about their "baby daddy."

It. Makes. Me. CRAZY.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 08:09 PM

Or here.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 07:13 PM

You will never hear that pronunciation here.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 05:25 PM

I was watching a documentary on the horrors of some island during some war where one side had prisoners-of-war whom they hunted, for sport and for dinner. I kept cracking up because the British [English?] narrator pronounced CANnibalism caNIBBLEism.
Like, they ate them daintily, with pinkies sticking out. And tea and crumpets.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 10:12 AM

I thought the commercial elderflower champagne makers could have simply called it 'Elderflower Shampagne', and the rest of us usually don't have a reason to write it down anyway so everybody would have been happy.

PS If you look for recipes on the internet you will find some that tell you to add yeast. You don't need to - there are natural yeasts on the flowers.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 09:45 AM

Even the French winemakers outside the Champagne region don't call their fizz champagne. They make wines they call "crémants," made in exactly the same way and with similar strict regulation. They are much cheaper and some can be pretty good, as good as champers in m'humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 09:21 AM

Well I take the point about its not being especially harmful to Champagne's reputation, and I admit to having made it meself and called it elderflower champagne, I do have to ask meself though why that company decided to be so provocative. Sparkling elderflower wine does it for me.

One elderflower bush in eight produces flowers that smell of cat's piss, so beware...

I'd generally rather drink a sparkler that's cheaper than champagne myself (something very nice with Parma ham, a little drizzle of aceto balsamico di Modena and a nibble of parmigiana reggiano - there I go again!). Some are a third the price and much better value. There are some lovely vintage cavas around, and we've been enjoying a bottle or two of the new-fangled rosé Prosecco from the Cantine Maschio (£6.50 at Morrison's). Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. It's a lovely drop!