BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 20 - 05:23 AM

I suppose that "ugh" is an attempt to render a common interjection in writing, a bit like "arrgh." I'd say that's unobjectionable. As for "aunt," just do what we northerners do and say "auntie" every time. Viola!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 20 - 05:35 AM

George Formby used to sing about "Auntie Maggie's Homemade Remedy", pronounced 'anti'.
I've heard 'antie' but never 'ant' opp north. People would think one was referring to an insect!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 06:40 AM

Sen, here in the North Lincolnshire Backwoods, ‘Aunt’ is pronounced ‘Ant’, and ‘Auntie’ is ‘Anti’. Also ‘Bath’ and ‘Path’ have no ‘r’, we use the flat ‘a’.

We also pronounce ‘up’ as ‘up’, we don’t say either the Satherner’s ‘app’, or the non-existent (except in the minds of Satherners) ‘oop’! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 30 May 20 - 10:34 AM

Manitas: the "ask/ax" business was just another annoyance from that John T. Reed person - the fool clearly knows nothing about the language he is bloviating on, and is displaying his ignorance in the furtherance of some kind of racist agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 30 May 20 - 03:48 PM

My sister-in-law said "ax," and she was a white person from Tennessee. It's strange how self-appointed language experts haven't traveled enough, and haven't listened enough notice that Southern speech and black speech might sometimes be the same, sometimes be different.

And they don't touch the issue that many people are partly white, partly black.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 May 20 - 10:34 PM

Upon which he is bloviating? Bwahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:13 AM

Yes, you could put it that way, I suppose ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:01 PM

Also, remember the vulva. People frequently say vagina when they mean vulva. That bugs me. Many people don't even know the word vulva.
Vulva vulva vulva it is such a great word, too.
What's worse is vagina means "sheath" - androcentric, eh.

Yes, 'Vulva' is a good word. I like the term 'pudenda'.
And if you think 'vagina' is androcentric, there's always 'cervix'. I've never worked out why 'cervical cancer' seems to be pronounced 'cervical' ('vic' as in 'victor') when related to the entrance to the womb, but 'cerv-eye-cal' when referring to the vertebrae at the top of the spine.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:04 PM

I suppose that "ugh" is an attempt to render a common interjection in writing, a bit like "arrgh." I'd say that's unobjectionable. As for "aunt," just do what we northerners do and say "auntie" every time. Viola!

Ah, trying to bring music back in ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:08 AM

I was not taught to pronounce the word cervical differently for the two ends. Have never heard it with the Eye pronunciation, and I have seen a *lot* of spinal professiinals over the years. Could that be British?

Also, cervix means Neck. Hardly androcentric.

On the other hand you have the mammilary bodies in the brain. They looked like tits to the guy who named'm. Nothing to do with mammilary function.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

No, 'cervix' is not androcentric. I was pointing it out as a suitable, 'non-androcentric' replacement for 'vagina'.

Seeing Mrrzy was unaware of the different pronunciations , I thought I'd dig a little deeper. Pronunciation here . Admittedly, that page does not seem to show that either pronunciation is associated with a particular variant meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:57 AM

Wow! Thanks! Great link!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:17 AM

The only trouble with all this is that the vulva is not the vagina is not the cervix. They just happen to be next to each other. Ish.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 01:53 PM

I've never worked out why 'cervical cancer' seems to be pronounced 'cervical' ('vic' as in 'victor') when related to the entrance to the womb, but 'cerv-eye-cal' when referring to the vertebrae at the top of the spine.
I think you'll find that most medics in the UK pronounce both the same way: cerv-eye-cal. it's just TV news journalists who don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 03:02 PM

Nope. See my comment above. I have seen chiropractors, physical therapists, orthopedists, neurosurgeons, general practitioners, and others for my vertebral issues, as well as gotten a doctorate in physiological psych, and nobody, no medical or professorial professional, has ever in my hearing pronounced cervical (referring to neck vertebrae) with an Eye in the middle. I think that is likely British... All my English-language studies and medical confabs have been in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 05:37 PM

Ah yes, creeping pronunciations. To "proTEST" has become to "PROtest", the verb pronounced the same as the noun, and in various other words I can't now place but which make my flesh creep when I hear them, the emphasis has sneaked back to the first syllable.
Then there's all the pronunciations where people have seen the word written but have never heard it used - albeit "Al Bate"; segue rhyming with vague, etc.
And place names: when they're pronounced wrong once, that's it, the pronunciation changes forever. Hubert Butler has a wonderful article where he's raging about Dublin placenames like those correctly pronounced DorSETT Street and WESTmoreland Street being pronounced DORset and WestMOREland nowadays. And of course Louth in Ireland - always correctly pronounced with a hard 'th' like 'the' - is more and more horribly often pronounced like the English town of Louth, which has a soft 'th' like 'commonwealth'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 06:17 PM

Thompson: comPACT (adj) vs COMpact (n) is anther pair that has been leveled by the vulgar. By now, "a comPACT car" (or "disc") would sound hopelessly la-di-da.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:00 PM

"a hard 'th' like 'the' - is more and more horribly often pronounced like the English town of Louth, which has a soft 'th' like 'commonwealth'."

When you get into pronunciation, bear in mind that this is an international forum. As a Canadian, I have no idea how the 'th' in 'the' could be any different from that in 'commonwealth' ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:01 PM

Grr. You said albeit, Thomson. Grr. Another changed stress that's creeping in is REsearch. It was always reSEARCH when I was at university. And for donkey's yonks I've railed at Mrs Steve saying ICE cream. It's bloody ice CREAM! It will never be a divorce issue, however, as we both happen to love the frozen article in question...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:07 PM

Mrrzy, the first part of my last post (re pronunciation of cervical) was quoting what Nigel said, only I forgot to put in quote marks.
The second part, "I think you'll find....." was me, and I DID specifically say "in the UK". I respect your multiple qualifications and painful experiences, but I spent a lot of my working life looking at cervices as well as dealing with pains in the neck and have a long string of hard-earned letters after my name, including FFFPRCOG (I know we all love acronyms here!) To me and my UK medical colleagues it is Cerv-eye-cal, whether "down below" or "up above" the waistline.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:11 PM

I have never said "Cerv-eye-cal." I don't say "Eye-ran" or "Eye-talians" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 12:10 AM

New word: antiquainted. Outmoded, but still cute.

Today's oxymoron: a fixed glance. I had to put the book down and untangle my mind (ooh it's a music thread now).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:29 AM

New word: antiquainted.

It has been round a long time for a new word. Anyway, what makes "outmoded" a better alternative. I would choose "dated" or "outdated" over "outmoded".

My mother and her friends, born in Liverpool before World War One, would describe unfashionable clothes using the made-up word "antwacky". This managed convey a real distaste for anything antiquated.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:26 AM

Eye-dyllic. Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:34 AM

Mrrzy, I have just seen this on another thread.

Antiquated is the old word. No second "i" in it.
The new one I am stealing is antiQUAINTed.


Not having read the most recent posts to the other thread, I just assumed you had made a spelling mistake here and let that pass.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 09:24 AM

Yes, yes, reSEARCH, and for that matter, fih (not fie) NANCE. Not sure if it's actually correct, the latter, but it's how it was said.
I like antiquainted. Old friends are always the best, they say, new friends you can find every day…

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 12:24 PM

Now that you point it out, Thompson, both of those words may be pronounced either way, even by the same person (me).

He's a REsearch specialist at Marquette University.
He's the head of virus reSEARCH at Marquette University.

She's the FInance officer at Security Bank.
She's the chief officer for fiNANCE at International Widget Corporation.

============
I never noticed that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 12:28 PM

And words in other languages that acquire weird versions in English: what the Japanese call meezoona, in the west becomes mizzOOna; encente for pregnant becomes oncynte in English…

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 12:46 PM

Maybe you haven't Steve, but, then as far as I know, you're not a doctor. (Cerv-eye-cal)
Just telling you how it is among doctors in the UK: not saying either is right or wrong, just happens to be what we say.
Oh, and there's another one...is it eether or eye-ther, neether or neye-there?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 03:14 PM

I think I always say eye-ther or neye-ther but I'm not that bothered. I may not be a medic but I am a biologist, which qualifies me to pontificate about pronunciation of body parts to the extent of zilch...

As for the plural of cervix, now I know that there are two alternatives. But if you insist on saying cervices, which sounds the same as services and which will sow nothing but confusion as a result, it marks you out as a bit of a clot. Only my opinion, of course. Thank goodness that that particular plural will be called for only rarely. Unlike kidneys, ovaries and testicles, for example. Cervixes does it for me every time, which isn't many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:35 PM

Spelling mistake? Mmmoi?

Today I read that a cop was punched in the scuffle. Bet that hurt...!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 11:24 AM

Linguisticians are intrigued by "backshift", which is what they call a change of emphasis in a multi-syllable or compound word. It often indicates that a two-word phrase is becoming a one-word noun modifier (e.g., ICEcream cone, BACKseat driver). Hence Mrs Steve's pernicious habit.

But sometimes it indicates that the word you thought was a adjective or a noun is actually a verb in this context (e.g., COMpact, n. an agreement or cabal; COMpact, adj., small; comPACT, v., pack together). English has quite a few of these, and I'm pretty sure they all come from Latin/Old French roots. Think of COMbat and comBAT, where the Anglo-Saxon word "battle" always has the stress on the first syllable although it can be either a noun or a verb.

As for REsearch and FEYEnance, they are but more examples of American v. British usage. Put them on the list with LABratory (labORAtory) and CONtroversy (conTROversy).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 12:02 PM

Breaking news! I just came across a YouTube video with 4 items of new slang:

Entitled millennial snowflake gets owned by hotel owner

The only new insult the poster left out is "a Karen," but that's understandable. One can't be a millennial and a Karen at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 01:24 PM

They are opening pools for lap swimming.

Lap dancing next!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 07:18 AM

Clot I am not, thanks for nothing for being your usual arrogant and insulting self, Steve.
Cervices is correct Latin plural as in indices.
I'm outa here.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:17 AM

Cor, that's a tad touchy considering what I actually said in my post. Lots of foreign words now in common use as adopted English words can take either an anglicised plural (hippopotamuses, rhinoceroses, forums) OR it's original-language plural. We should be guided by convention, as in those three, or by practicality. "Cervices" isn't incorrect, but, as it sounds like a word it could be confused with, it's far better to say cervixes. English with all its irregularities and anomalies is complicated enough without adding unnecessary layers of confusion. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:42 AM

Cervices, indices, etc. are right. Cervixes, indexes are common, but so is using literally to mean figuratively. Doesn't make it right, just common.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 09:03 AM

It's not a matter of what's right or wrong. When it comes to English I've always held that it's wot people say wot's the clincher, even when it grates. Or peeves us.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 09:06 AM

The BBC Radio 4 newsreader has just said that the beaches in Portugal are once again reopening. No they're not. They are either once again opening or they're reopening.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 11:09 AM

Beaches in Portugal may be closed for reasons other than Coronavirus. If so, it is possible for them to re-open. If they are then closed for Coronavirus then it is possible for them to be re-opened again.
38 beaches closed to the public

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:13 PM

Yes I know that, Nigel, but did you actually hear that 2 PM news bulletin? The context of the item was the pandemic and the lifting of the lockdown. Had there been additional reasons for opening and closing beaches, that would have been stated. I'm not aware that beaches in Portugal are routinely closed and opened on a whim. And you know how much I like whimsy...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:31 PM

Meant to mention that it didn't escape my attention that your item is two years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:46 PM

Here's a pet peeve of mine: literate authors who forget what tense they started in. Like this:

"Martha had gone to the supermarket for a few items, then she went to the pharmacy for aspirin, then she got gas."

Doggone it, if you're going to start in the past perfect, stay in the past perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:38 PM

Sounds like she should have gone back to the pharmacy to get something for that gas...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:23 PM

Doggone it, if you're going to start in the past perfect, stay in the past perfect.
Not necessary. The sentence seems to be progressing through tenses. It isn't a problem to say: "I had been to the doctors in the morning. I had faggots and mash for lunch. In the afternoon I went for a walk, and now I'm sitting down to enjoy a glass of beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:30 PM

Those are all separate sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:52 PM

I had been to the doctor in the morning, when he found that a Stetson hat was growing in my abdomen, which he would remove, he promised, the next day.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:58 PM

I must say, I have to agree with Nigel here. I read it a couple of times and couldn't see much to quibble about.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:48 PM

No: if you start in the past perfect, you would typically, and correctly, NOT stay in the past perfect. The reason you would start in the past perfect is because you are going to go on to talk about something in the more recent past, for which you use the simple past to clarify that it IS the more recent past. "Martha had gone to the supermarket for a few items, then she went to the pharmacy for aspirin .... " is correct, if that is the order in which the events occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 07:29 PM

Just read it, and if it makes sense to you it's fine.