BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 03:24 PM

I outed once too often there. The spuds were done.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 04:00 PM

Yeah it worked for me but my whole life happens out loud in my head...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 11:23 AM

Hee her headline reads Grandparents have been [complaint] my 6-year old behind my back for years!

How long had their kid been 6?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 12:27 PM

Apart from the fact that your sentence doesn't make much sense, I can't see much wrong with the construction you appear to be complaining about.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 04:18 PM

Steve Shaw, I thought my peeves didn't have to be your peeves. Are you starting that up again?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 06:13 PM

I'm suggesting that you state your case with clarity. It's hard to discuss your peeves with you when you type an incomprehensible sentence (and I recall that you regard yourself as a rather good proofreader. It wouldn't have taken much for you to have reviewed that sentence, would it?)

"My 70-year-old aunt has been telling me for years that I can't bake a decent cake." Perfectly good English in m'humble...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 07:40 PM

Mrrzy,
I'm not trying to pick a fight - just pointing out:


Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy - PM
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:12 PM

..................................

I like being corrected. How else can I learn?


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 02:18 AM

If we all learnt from our mistakes, I'd be a genius by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 04:34 AM

Yep, we'd all be genii!

Er...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 09:37 AM

But it *wasn't* MY sentence. It was the headline that peeved me! So it peeved you too! So why, again, exactly, are you picking on my peeves?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:46 AM

"Hee her headline reads Grandparents have been [complaint] my 6-year old behind my back for years!"

1. What does "Hee her" mean?

2. Who is this "her?"

3. What does "[complaint]" in the middle of an alleged headline mean?

4. "have been"??

5. Whose "6-year old [sic]"?

6. Behind WHOSE back?

Tell us where you saw this headline. I'd love to look it up. I have no peeve with the sentence, but, in general, I do have peeves when it comes to obscurantist writing that requires me to do a lot of unnecessary mental processing before I can see the light. It's far more polite to express things in simple, clear language.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 02:18 PM

Ooh typoed hee hee. How rude of me, you are so right. I obviously do these things specifically to upset you.

My use of square brackets to avoid detailing the complaint is standard.

All your other quibbles are with the headline. It did not make sense. That is what peeved me. And you apparently agree with me in that.

You want to see the source, look it up yourself. That is what the google is for.

Again. Why do you quibble with my peeves? And when it is pointed out to you that what you are quibbling with isn't even me, why do you double down instead of apologizing and backing off?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 02:21 PM

But what DOES "hee her" mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 02:44 PM

I did google the headline. I didn't find anything with that exact headline, but I did find a story about a mother being upset because her child's grandparents, who had been looking after the child for the whole of the summer, had taken the child with them to church.
Was that the complaint you were referring to? If so, why the square brackets, which lead the reader to imagine all kinds of appalling behaviour.
I was taken, and later sent, to church as a child. I don't think it did me any harm although I am no longer a believer (if I ever really was). But as so much of our history, music, literature and so on has been influenced by the church and its beliefs, I appreciated having some knowledge of what that basis consists of.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 03:25 PM

My peeve wasn't about the grandparents taking the kid to church, which was indeed the complaint. That is why I didn't specify the complaint. Hee her is a) obviously a typo and b)had been explained already.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 04:52 PM

How long has the kid been 6 years old?

Good question, Mrrzy.

I have my own question. The grandparents probably wanted to go to church themselves. What were they supposed to do with the child during the service, leave it at home to play with matches?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 06:11 PM

Hee hee...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 06:46 PM

That should be "hee HER", Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 07:27 PM

I stand corrected. -)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: mayomick
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 01:35 PM

The word "so" when used needlessly as the first word in reply to a question . As in:
Journalist :"How much longer are we likely to be on lockdown, Dr Holohan"?

De Holohan : "So, it really depends on how we manage to suppress the virus over the coming days"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:05 PM

Or even "So, it really depends on how we manage to suppress the virus over the coming days, going forward". Arrgh!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:30 PM

I seem to be getting used to "So," now, though I hated it at first.

But I am still bewildered by people beginning their answer to a question with "Yes-no".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 03:44 PM

Thanks for the grin, meself/Steve Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 04:50 PM

I seem to be getting used to "So," now, though I hated it at first.

There are some expressions that go the opposite way for me. I don't mind them at first but grow to dislike them.

I realise that it is one of Steve's favourites and I accept that he has every right to use it wherever and whenever he wants but, the more I see "in m'humble", the more I hate it.

Sorry Steve

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:11 PM

I got that from a mate of mine many years ago. You may or may not have noticed that I never use those internet shortenings such as ROTFLMAO, LOL and the like. "In m'humble" avoids my having to type the pretentious IMHO, or, worse, IMNSHO. I suppose that you could accuse "in m'humble" of being pretentious, but it's so daft that I feel that the pretentiousness gets washed away in a tide of self-deprecation. YMMV.


Shit...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:18 PM

We have a new weather lady who is prone to pronouncing temperature "temmricher." And I wish weather presenters wouldn't say daft things such as "the temperature will be below where it should be for the time of year," and "the temperature will reach five degrees today but it will feel more like minus one in that breeze," and "the showers will already be moving their way in." And, being the time of year it is, we're starting to get the usual spate of Febyouerries and Febrys. Why can't people just talk proper!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:25 AM

"the temperature will reach five degrees today but it will feel more like minus one in that breeze,"

I think that is one of the most useful parts of the weather forecast. I don't have to worry about slipping on a frozen puddle right outside my door but I should wrap up in warm clothes if I am going to walk around the playing fields.

I don't mind the chatty form of the weather presenters. Not everything has to be read out in the measured tones of the shipping forecast. I do agree with you, though, on the horrors of "temmricher" and "Febyouerry/Febry".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:36 AM

The occasional slip when speaking is understandable. We can't always think fast enough to get it right. But I hate to see basic errors in writing.

A recent caption on a TV programme talked about 'a vertebrae'!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:51 AM

I don't want to go off at too much of a tangent, but the topic of the public perception of broadcast weather forecasts is quite interesting and has been a matter of concern for forecasters. Here's a link that could be worth a read (you'll have to copy and paste it): https://doi.org/10.1080/00046973.1969.9676566

I'm an amateur member of the Royal Meteorological Society and have been subscribing to their in-house mag for decades. A few years ago there was a discussion of how well the public were able to concentrate on forecasts, and it came up that many people switch on the forecast but have drifted off well before the end. I suppose that we often want to tease out the bits relevant to our own region, but that can seem to be quite an effort when things such as "tomorrow will be dry and bright in the south and east but it will be more unsettled in the north and west." There's a lot to process in that, especially if, like me, you live in the south and west :-) , and by the time the presenter gets to that bit I've probably fallen asleep anyway. I think that the best two communicators on the telly are Susan Powell and Sarah Keith-Lucas, both confident, clear, map-savvy and able to hold the attention for the required two minutes. I struggle with Helen Willetts and body-builder Tomasz Schafernaker. If Mrs Steve asks me what the forecast is if I've listened to either of those two, I realise that I haven't listened properly...

I've posted this before, but my favourite weather forecast ludicrosity was Helen Willetts telling us that "At least last night's rain has washed the humidity out of the air..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:52 AM

That when was meant to be a with.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 07:46 AM

I usually find television weather forecasts easier to concentrate on than radio as they are visual. You can see the weather moving across the country, see which direction it is going in (easier than remembering that an easterly wind is coming from the east, not going in an easterly direction).
The only problem is that you have to remember that the design of the map varies according to which channel you are watching. One will use pale green for clear skies and darker green for overcast, while another uses pale green to suggest a cloudy sky, and darker green to mean the sky will be clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:03 AM

My favourite weather forecast was a few years ago when it was just cloudy for weeks on end, no rain, no sun, no heat, no cold.
For some reason the radio weather forecaster wasn't available one morning, so the presenter just announced that "Today, the weather will be boring."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:13 AM

Reminds me of a week-long biology field course in north Wales I was on when I was at university. I think it was in April 1970. During that whole week there was no sun, no wind, no rain and the temperature hovered within a degree of 7C, day and night. We were supposed to be measuring the effect of the weather on evapotranspiration. We returned to college unenlightened! We did learn quite a bit about mosses and liverworts, however, with the most inspirational teacher I've ever had, so all was not lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:16 AM

An advert came on the TV recently for a mattress. I wasn't paying all that much attention until the person talked about 'laying' on it.
I bristled (typical retired teacher).
I've noticed that these days, 'lay' is often misused for 'lie'.
One lays eggs and bricks, or in the past one lay down.
"I was laying there" sounds to me as if a chicken is speaking!
I wonder if people dislike 'lie' because it also means to tell a lie?
Anyone else hate the misuse of 'lay'?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:24 AM

I think I may have mentioned it somewhere earlier in the thread - but it is so common it does no harm to bring the subject up at regular intervals.

Maybe it's all Dylan's fault:
"Lay lady, lay ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:36 AM

I once rather fell for a weatherforecaster whose teleprompter said something about "ground fog" and right after saying that he stopped, looked offscreen, and said Ground fog? Of course it's GROUND fog! If it weren't on the ground, it'd be up in the air and be CLOUDS!

(Did you notice how neatly this came back to language peeves?)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:40 AM

Er, there is such a thing as hill fog.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:49 AM

I wanted to lay the duvet in the bed.

So I made the duvet lie on the bed.

The duvet lay on the bed.


Dylan wanted the lady to lie across his big brass bed. She was a bit reluctant, so he gently laid her across his big brass bed. And then he... (stoppit, Stephen...)

I hope he'd laid a comfortable mattress on the bed first and made sure it was lying on it properly. I won't lie to you, it isn't my favourite song, so just lay off, will you...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:54 AM

Which reminds me of a modern irritant that's spreading like a virus: "I won't lie to you..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:09 AM

And there is sea fog, of course.
Sometimes the sea fog drifts inland.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:38 AM

Perhaps Dylan was actually talking to a hen, exhorting it to produce an egg on his bed?
I suppose quite a few people haven't studied languages/grammar at any depth, so the words 'transitive' and 'intransitive' wouldn't mean much to them.
I'm always put on alert when someone says, "I don't mean to be rude but..." or "I'm not going to lie to you but...". The 'but' means they jolly well do and will!
Weather forecasters - oh yes! "Wrap up warm" er... are you my mum? And it's 'warmly' - adverb please.
"The weather out there..." Where else would it be? Inside my house?
The older I get, the more crotchety I become. I should wrap up warm and lay down.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:30 PM

I think "wrap up warm" is fine, actually. There's no rule that sez that an adverb has to end with -ly, or that one that does end with -ly can't evolve into one that doesn't. I'm only guessing, but I suspect that the injunction "wrap up warm" is commoner than "wrap up warmly." In that context, "warm" is still an adverb. If enough people use a construction for long enough, it becomes standard English whether we like it or not. Another battle lost, I fear!

And I'd far sooner hear a weather presenter advising me to wrap up warm than telling me that "five degrees will feel more like minus one in that breeze" which is just gibberish! How many people have an accurate and objective understanding of what "five degrees" or "minus one" feels like? Is that with your coat on or off? When you're wet or dry? Felt on your hands, your feet or your face? Whether you're fat or thin? With your thermal knickers on or off?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:34 PM

"Wrap up warm" er... are you my mum? And it's 'warmly' - adverb please.


In my post above (15 Jan 21 - 04:25 AM), I wanted to write "wrap up warm" but, knowing this is a thread about language, I thought someone might pick up the need for the adverb. Still, "wrap up warmly" seemed clumsy. In the end, I chickened out and wrote "wrap up in warm clothes".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:46 PM

Many years ago, I was listening to late night radio, when the host read the local weather report. It contained a reference to "a patchy fog". (get it? Apache?)

The guy stopped in mid-sentence and mumbled something about.."what happens if there's a 'Navaho fog' or a 'Comanche fog'... and he started giggling at his own joke... then completely lost it and began sputtering and choking in an effort to STOP laughing. It must have taken him several minutes to compose himself and get back to whatever he was supposed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 01:01 PM

We have lots of "patchies" in our weather forecasts. Patchy fog, patchy rain, patchy drizzle, even patchy frost. It's the non-committal way of saying that, in spite of the fact that we have the world's finest computers and the most talented modellers, we can't tell you whether you'll get these types of weather or not where you live. We also have "chance of...", "scattered showers," "sunny spells/periods/intervals/breaks" and "possibly with the odd rumble of thunder."

One dictionary I just consulted referred to ""wrap up" as a phrase verb. That makes a qualifying word following it an adverb, I guess. It may be informal, but "wrap up warm" is clear and effective in its message!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 01:03 PM

That should have been phrasal. Don't you just love text prediction that knows better than you!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 05:32 PM

Hee hee [I proofread!] there is a great Irish song about the weather, patchy fog fog fog patchy fog fog fog patchy fog fog foooooog, rise and follow Charlie...

Here, if it's over water, it is usually called mist, rather than fog.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 05:54 PM

Yebbut you get sleet and hail hopelessly mixed up. Do try to learn from your colonial masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:38 PM

"Apache fog".
Is that a weather condition seen following an "Indian Summer"?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:38 PM

Fifteen Hundred!