BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 05:31 AM

I particularly hate people who shout "Come on!" like a bullying PE teacher faced with reluctant children who have no interest in getting a ball into whatever variety of hole or goal the game requires.

Jamie Oliver does it in nearly all his cookery programmes (at which point I switch off).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 05:43 AM

Use of the word "chair" for chairman and chairwoman or chairlady - hideous unnecessary neuterisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 07:22 AM

Calling them 'chairholders' would solve that problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 07:31 AM

I have just heard someone on BBC Radio 4 describing financial problems resulting from Covid 19 as "the biggest cause of mental health ...".
Not "mental illness", or even "mental problems".

Shouldn't we be encouraging anything that is a cause of mental health?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM

Ooh, I *like* chair and such as gender-neutral titles. Necessary, I would say. Silly to have to specify genitalia, and hyphen-person is awkward.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 09:38 AM

If I'm in a meeting and the person chairing it is a woman, I'm perfectly fine with Chairwoman. Likewise, Chairman if it's a bloke. I'm fine with Chairperson or just Chair in either case. But if we're just talking about meetings in general, we may need something generic. In that circumstance I'm fine with Chair or Chairperson. Shouldn't be saying Chairman if I don't know the gender of the person in the chair or if I know it's a woman. It isn't hard, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 11:52 AM

Not a pet peeve, but I heard this on the radio this morning: "If we do that now, it will come back and bite us in the end."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 01:55 PM

Lol!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 22 Nov 20 - 03:46 AM

I'm happy with "lady chairman" (and so is the lady chairman of our local Country Dance club).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 20 - 04:50 AM

Here in Bude we have a lady policeman and a lady postman. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Nov 20 - 07:20 AM

If 'chair' is considered preferable to 'chairman', shouldn't we be using the term 'hu beings' ?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Nov 20 - 10:20 AM

I have been stymied by humanity in my endeavor to use neutral terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 22 Nov 20 - 11:46 AM

"hupersonity", obviously!

Back when women in hitherto 'men's jobs' was new, my father referred to their female letter-carrier as 'the femailman' - or 'femaleman' - not sure of the spelling ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 22 Nov 20 - 11:57 AM

In England (probably in other parts of the UK as well) the person who delivers the post isn't called the 'mailman' (or 'mailwoman'). Some people try to call them 'posties' but that sounds Australian.
If calling the chairman (or woman) the chair is now widely regarded as normal, why not call him/her 'the post'? We do say 'Has the post come yet?'

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Nov 20 - 01:22 PM

Another peeve of mine: "categorically" as in "It is categorically untrue that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves in 1832."

Apparently the word is substituted for "absolutely" or "completely", but every time I hear it, I wonder what unstated category the speaker has in mind. It doesn't help that those who use it often sound like they are trying to put over a snowjob.
==============
Re: the mail. In the U.S. we call them letter carriers.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 20 - 05:57 PM

It's VACCine fer chrissake. Not vaccINE!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Nov 20 - 10:06 PM

Jos: When I was in Scotland in 1959, I received an anonymous valentine whose envelope was inscribed

Postie, postie, dinna falter.
This may take me to the altar.

So "postie" must be Scottish as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 06:20 AM

Elvis's 'Return to Sender' begins 'I gave a letter to the postman ...'.

So at one time in America the person who both collected and delivered letters was called the 'postman'.

'Letter carriers' sounds like the homing pigeons that carried messages in wartime.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 06:44 AM

We give letters to our postman. It's like that round here.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 06:54 AM

"The Postman Always Rings Twice" is a 1946 American film noir based on a 1934 novel of the same name, by an American author James M Cain.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 10:55 AM

VaccINE.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 11:49 AM

VACCine - Edward Jenner was English. He invented it, so the English pronunciation is correct.
Here's a little BBC film about it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p015gmdn


And while we're about it, it's conTRIBute, not CONtribUTE, and disTRIBute, not DIStribUTE.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 12:46 PM

Well I'm pretty tolerant when it comes to variations in pronunciation, but vaccINE seems to have caught on like an infection. Until the last couple of weeks I have never heard that pronunciation in this country (and I am 69...). A few of our telly commentators, after hearing reports from the US, have slipped into saying it then corrected themselves. I regard vaccINE as a horror no less vile than albeit, prior to and on a daily basis. It's just wrong. It comes from the Latin word for cow, vacca, fer chrissake.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 12:47 PM

"He invented it, so the English pronunciation is correct." Thanks for my morning chuckle.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 12:54 PM

Yeah, and the French invented champagne, and we in Europe respect that and refrain from calling our sparkling wines champagne. Not so in America, eh? If vaccination was invented here and we've been saying VACCine for 200 years, well just behave yourselves and talk proper!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 05:00 PM

Ford has ordered freezers to vaccinate their employees. Took me a while to place that missing comma!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 06:29 PM

Would that be vaccINate? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 11:57 PM

about six months ago, the DH and I got interested in a British TV show about archeology. The name of the show is Time Team, and although it's been off the air a long time, we still enjoy it.

Watching the show has cause me to hear many different pronunciations between English English and American English. It's a funny thing, because the books I read about English don't mention them.

It's late at night and I'm tired, so I'm not going to try to list them. Nonetheless, there are so many of them that railing against them is like telling the waves not to come in.

We do smile at all the extra r's in the British speech:

arear
Carenzer (Carenza)
dramer (drama)

We think they're cute.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 04:19 AM

Leeneia, you'll find many (slightly) different pronunciations across England, mainly between North & South although there are other regional accents. There are also local dialects like Geordie or Black Country, quite unintelligible to an outsider if the speaker so chooses.

Steve, I seem to remember that "champagne" was once a generic term for sparkling wine. However, that changed when we joined the Common Market.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 06:01 AM

Champagne is not a generic term for sparkling wine. Champagne is a fairly small region of France north-east of Paris. It has a particular climate and terroir and there are strict regulations as to its sparkling wine production methods. The wine we call champagne has been produced there for centuries (for long before there was a USA). The Champagne region has long battled to preserve its name for its sparkling wine, and most countries in the world, including China, Brazil and the EU countries, all abide by the legal requirement to not call any wine not from that region champagne. Some winemakers in the US persist, via a loophole in the law, to dishonestly use the word champagne on their labels. If you call a wine Rioja, it has to come from that part of north-east Spain. Likewise, Napa Valley, Porto, Chianti Classico, among many others. We can't call a cheese Stilton unless it comes from a very restricted area of the English Midlands, and it has to be made a certain way. You can't call a pork pie a Melton Mowbray pie unless that's where it comes from. Prosecco has to come from the Veneto in northern Italy, from nowhere else. Routinely, these are not just place names but also reflect strict rules with regard to local and often highly traditional production methods. By any measure you look at this, the regulations are entirely moral. Of course, we've lost a few battles, Cheddar for example, though some of us, me included, will not buy any cheese calling itself "Cheddar" unless it comes from that small part of the Westcountry (wot pfr calls Scrumpyshire). I've just sampled a superb cheese from south-east England called Sussex Charmer, in every regard very like a superior cheddar, but it refrains from using that word on its label. Let's hang on to and celebrate regionality, say I!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 06:20 AM

Democrats are rhetorical wimps. Republicans can demonize the conceptual name ANTIFA but Democrats can not bring themselves to call the gun toting white supremacists PRO FASCISTS.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 06:23 AM

As for Cheddar, we have at least got legal protection for the term West Country Farmhouse Cheddar, thus:

"Cheese can only be called ‘West Country Farmhouse Cheddar’ if:

It is made using milk from local herds reared and milked in the counties of Somerset, Dorset, Devon or Cornwall. This ensures that the cheese has a particular texture and flavour.

It contains no colouring, no flavouring and no preservatives.

It is made in these four counties to traditional methods. These methods include the cheese being made by hand and the unique process known as ‘cheddaring’.

It is made and matured on the farm and aged for at least 9 months. Authentic Farmhouse Cheddar doesn’t leave the farm from the moment the milk arrives from the parlour until it’s ready to cut and pack. This means the Cheddar remains in the care of the farmer who can ensure that it is produced and stored to the very highest standards required of a premium cheese."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 08:33 AM

There were objections some years back concerning 'elderflower champagne', which is usually made by people in their own homes for their own use, using bunches of elderflowers, water, sugar and lemon juice. Problems arose when someone produced it commercially and in 1993 large champagne houses took the case to court, but failed. This report is from The Independent:

"Although a product sold as 'elderflower champagne' constitutes a misrepresentation in that it indicates that it contains 'champagne' and is likely to deceive a small section of the public, it is unlikely that the champagne houses' reputation and valuable goodwill in the name champagne will be substantially affected by the small-scale sale of elderflower champagne. Since there was no likelihood of substantial damage to the champagne houses' business, reputation or goodwill, the champagne houses' passing off claim failed.

Sir Mervyn Davies dismissed the plaintiffs' passing off claim for damages and an injunction to restrain the defendants from selling elderflower champagne."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 09:21 AM

Well I take the point about its not being especially harmful to Champagne's reputation, and I admit to having made it meself and called it elderflower champagne, I do have to ask meself though why that company decided to be so provocative. Sparkling elderflower wine does it for me.

One elderflower bush in eight produces flowers that smell of cat's piss, so beware...

I'd generally rather drink a sparkler that's cheaper than champagne myself (something very nice with Parma ham, a little drizzle of aceto balsamico di Modena and a nibble of parmigiana reggiano - there I go again!). Some are a third the price and much better value. There are some lovely vintage cavas around, and we've been enjoying a bottle or two of the new-fangled rosé Prosecco from the Cantine Maschio (£6.50 at Morrison's). Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. It's a lovely drop!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 09:45 AM

Even the French winemakers outside the Champagne region don't call their fizz champagne. They make wines they call "crémants," made in exactly the same way and with similar strict regulation. They are much cheaper and some can be pretty good, as good as champers in m'humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 10:12 AM

I thought the commercial elderflower champagne makers could have simply called it 'Elderflower Shampagne', and the rest of us usually don't have a reason to write it down anyway so everybody would have been happy.

PS If you look for recipes on the internet you will find some that tell you to add yeast. You don't need to - there are natural yeasts on the flowers.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 05:25 PM

I was watching a documentary on the horrors of some island during some war where one side had prisoners-of-war whom they hunted, for sport and for dinner. I kept cracking up because the British [English?] narrator pronounced CANnibalism caNIBBLEism.
Like, they ate them daintily, with pinkies sticking out. And tea and crumpets.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 07:13 PM

You will never hear that pronunciation here.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 08:09 PM

Or here.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 08:41 PM

My clients often talk about their "baby daddy."

It. Makes. Me. CRAZY.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 05:31 AM

And that reminds me of that inane bit in She's Leaving Home:

"She breaks down and cries to her husband
Daddy our baby's gone..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 06:08 AM

I don't think I have EVER heard "caNIBBLEism". It's the sort of thing you sometimes hear from people whose first language isn't English.

Leeneia, have you ever heard a Bristol accent - I think you'd love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 06:20 AM

I think "baby daddy" is really a pronunciation of "baby's daddy". It doesn't bother me.

What I really hate is cat or dog owners being referred to as the animal's mummy or daddy - yuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 06:42 AM

Doesn't baby daddy suggest a father who's absent and flaky?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 07:21 AM

"Doesn't baby daddy suggest a father who's absent and flaky?"

Not necessarily. It's just that that is often the case.
But he could just be living elsewhere but keeping in touch and being supportive.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM

Jos, I'm with you on the pets. I am my cat's owner, not her mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jos
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 01:06 PM

When I had cats I thought of them as friends, rather than possessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 03:02 PM

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 03:26 PM

Fur-weather friends, Jos? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM

Ok, this from Newsweek:

Child Dragged From House As California Highway Patrol Evicts Families From Vacant Homes

Um, if they are vacant, nobody can be dragged out of them, child or no, as nobody is *in* them.