BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 05:11 PM

It isn't necessarily to highlight and thereby expose someone's error. Were I to quote someone whose words include an error and I corrected that error, that would be patronising in the extreme. If I were to quote someone, knowing that the quote included an egregious error but I didn't point out the error via [sic], it could look like I was condoning the error, or worse, didn't know that the error was there. [sic] is relatively subtle, is time-honoured and is not at all vulgar.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:47 PM

Steve Shaw: The use of [sic] to highlight an error is vulgar. The proper scholarly use is to reassure the reader that you, the writer, have *not* made an error, but have written the preceding intentionally. The usual reason for needing it is that a quotation contains an error that you have quoted faithfully; but quotation need not be involved. For example, I once wrote (describing a dream) "ate some candles [sic]"; without that warning, anyone might reasonably suspect I meant to write "candies".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:31 PM

Caesar adsum iam forte
Pompey aderat
Caesar sic in omnibus
Pompey sic in hat

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:28 PM

I like the distinction between licence and license, but, as most Brits get it wrong whenever they use it as a verb, I've given up on that one. Maybe I'm a secret yank.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:36 PM

Oil on Troubled Waters Dept: I thought "supercede" was the correct spelling too, but Wictionary corrects me (and provides the even more interesting misspelling "superseed" --- definite comic mileage there). I'll need to remember to think of "supersession", using the mental image of Lennon and Hendrix jamming in the recording studio next to the Pearly Gates.

Another that I can only get right by brute force is "desiccate", which still looks wrong to me; mayhap it's the insidious influence of my father's disparaging term "desecrated coconut". At least now I'm not in paid employment which involves distributing software to users, I don't have to worry about distinguishing between "license" (verb) and "licence" (noun), of which the latter spelling seems to not have made it across the Puddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 02:41 PM

Sic transit gloria mundi .... ?

Gloria threw up in the van at the beginning of the week.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 02:39 PM

Exactly. To the point at which it's perverse to spell it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 11:46 AM

From Merriam-Webster:

su·?per·?cede
Definition of supercede
disputed spelling variant of SUPERSEDE

Supercede vs. Supersede: Usage Guide
Supercede has occurred as a spelling variant of supersede since the 17th century, and it is common in current published writing. It continues, however, to be widely regarded as an error.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 11:42 AM

Sic transit gloria mundi .... ?

I'll get mi dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:31 AM

‘Devine’?

Any ideas, anyone? (Other than it being the obvious mis-spelling of ‘divine’?).

”Before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean” - James Marshall Hendrix (allegedly).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:55 AM

This exchange between Donuel and me took place on the Roe v. Wade thread, where it was out of place, so I've edited it extremely heavily in order to remove abrasiveness and moved it over here. It all started when he misused the word "supersedes," compounded by his rather perverse misspelling of it:

ME: "Supercedes" [sic]??

HE: “Sic” is an adverb that means “thus” in Latin, but writers and editors can also use it to highlight grammar errors in quoted text. Learn the proper way to use “sic” and useful alternatives.

It would be better to use "recte" and write the word correctly spelled if you want to correct spelling...

ME: [sic] means that I have quoted your rendering of the word in question exactly, even though I know it to be incorrect. For five hundred years the word has been "supersede," and you won't find many authorities that don't regard "supercede" as either perverse or ignorant.

...And it was the wrong word to use in any case.

HE: Please continue to use [sic] incorrectly, "recte" is more correct for a single word.
A spelling error, horrific, hoisted by ones own petard, devine.

ME: The phrase is from Hamlet, and the correct version is hoist with his own petard. I use it quite a lot, only ever that way, the right way, just as I use [sic].

                                                             .........................

I've never used, let alone heard of, "recte," and the examples of its use that I looked up all look cumbersome and somewhat obscurantist. I think that [sic] is perfectly good for both single words and for phrases and I can find no objection to that anywhere. Feel free to demur!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 04:07 PM

That's a good one, Mrrzy.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 03:13 AM

Then there is the cartoon where Tarzan is saying to Jane "I've got an ape for that..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 02:20 AM

Hahahaaaaagh Mrrzy!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 04:18 PM

I didn't understand the app concept till I saw a New Yorker cartoon with cavemen sitting around a fire, and one is exclaiming I love this stuff! It's got a heating app, a light app, a cooking app...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 02:22 AM

Being completely ignorant of terms connected to technology, I'm often flummoxed by my neighbour's son and daughter (they're in their early twenties) when chatting with them. They usually forget that I don't possess a fobile moan, and have remarked many times, "You need a nap!" I think this means an App (whatever that is). I always reply, "Thanks, but I've already had one today."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 08:07 PM

I've learned something new.

A woman talked to me recently about joining my early-music group, and I was about ready to send out e-mails to the gang. The following came into my Inbox from the new person:

Leeneia, Recorder information? How often? How long do you plan? How many in group?

I was irritated! How rude! I was trying to think of a good lie to make her go away, but then I showed it to the DH, and he said that that is considered normal writing for a person on a phone. Well, okayeee.

I think that is a heck of way to ask a person for a big favor. And it is a big favor - I find and arrange music, I've bought a projector and screen, we have snacks and tea ....

I hope she doesn't keep this up.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 07:40 AM

I'm rather addicted to Dr Pimple Popper on TV, and am amused by some of the words/pronunciations used. For the word 'pouch' she says 'pooch' (which is a pet dog here in UK!) And any tumours, spots etc are referred to as 'bumps'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 06:25 AM

"Influencer." Grr. I know it's an ancient word, but its modern manifestation, mainly it seems in social media contexts, gets right on my nerves, it does. It's become flavour of the month, all over the place like a rash. I'll swear I hardly ever heard it used until six months ago but now I can't avoid it. Daft if you ask me (you won't).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 01:03 PM

Unfortunately, leeneia, many a telly chef over here refers to "Worcester sauce." That's very annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 01:02 PM

Leeneia. The device you describe is a “vice” in British English.

Looking through the Chambers dictionary App on my phone, I find 2 entries for “vice” with different roots.

#1 (which has the Latin “vitis” – "vine" referenced) Has meanings including the tool.
#2 (“vitium” – "defect") has the immoral meanings.

You in the US appear to spell #1 as “vise”.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 12:56 PM

A vice. I'm a big fan of American English, but I can't think that I've ever seen "vise" used in an English-English context.

Cheers, Lighter. I also checked that source. I don't want anyone thinking that I make stuff up... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 12:33 PM

Here's what Merriam-Webster says:

"There is a persistent but unfounded notion that between can be used only of two items and that among must be used for more than two. Between has been used of more than two since Old English...."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/between

Oxford concurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 12:32 PM

Steve, what do you call a device that's clamped to a workbench and has two jaws and a handle? When an item if placed between the jaws and the handle is turned, the item is eventually clamped in place.

Something cute: I was just watching a video on how to cook pork ribs, and the cook said, "Now put on some W sauce. This stuff. (displays a bottle of Worcestershire sauce) Pronounce it however you want."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 12:26 PM

It doesn't matter what you think "tween" means. "Albeit" means "all be it" or "although be it," both of which are absolute nonsense, but even I know that it's a standard English word. The danger with hanging on to things that you haven't noticed have evolved is that you're going to criticise people who have not done anything wrong. They've merely gone with the flow, which Canute demonstrated that we all have to do. Take a tip from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 11:46 AM

'Gazpacho police' is just a polite way of saying, 'Soup Nazi'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 11:01 AM

The Tween of Between means 2.

The misuse of literal to mean figurative does not change the meaning of literal to figurative.

Between you and me. Not between you and I, which also bugs me. Adding the lamppost I will allow, but as literary.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 04:41 AM

I've never seen "vise" outside an American context.

You are wrong about "between" and "among." Again, language is what people use, not what grammarians dictate. It's a distinction that I try to maintain myself, but there's also a distinction to be made between "it's wrong" and " I don't like it."

Ahem: a treaty between western nations, or a treaty among western nations...?

Between you, me and the gatepost, or among you, me and the gatepost?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 03:35 AM

Right now, I can't think of any other word that has the -ear of nuclear.
Quite a few. the SOED CD ROM includes, in the phonetic search, "ere", and "ia". But if "clear" was the arbiter then only "clear" & expansions of "nuclear"

fan bloody tastic
is that anyones' pet peeve? - an example of tmesis I just found out.

Dare we mention Gazpacho police? MTJ's delightful malapropism.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 03:16 AM

SOED CD ROM (20 yrs old) re precarity - not in

precarium /prI"kE:rIm/ n. Pl.
[L, use as n. of neut. of precarius: see PRECARIOUS.] Rom. & Sc. Law. A loan granted on request but revocable whenever the owner may please.

But instantiate is:
Represent by an instance.

though it would seem in code writing the meaning doesn't now imply as an example. ie it was used before (≈ precedent set)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 02:37 AM

It's not a peeve for me, but I too often see authors using "vice" when they mean "vise."

"vise" is a North American spelling of "vice". I (UK) would use and mean "vice".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 01:19 AM

Clear, fear, dear, near, sear, hear..
All quite common words unlike the live the 'ular' list.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 11:38 PM

It's not a peeve for me, but I too often see authors using "vice" when they mean "vise." Example: He could hardly breathe; he felt as if he were being crushed in a vice.

About "nucular." The average person uses patterns and resemblances in language. Think how many words we have with "ular" in them:

regular
molecular
jugular
scapular
macular
spectacular

Right now, I can't think of any other word that has the -ear of nuclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 11:25 PM

However he pronounces it. That one's easy.

Between means there are 2; if there were more, it'd be Among. So between both is redundant, and redundancy is my pet peeve of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 04:07 PM

Coh-lin Powell vs Collin Powell...?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 03:47 PM

Thanks for the explanation, Geoff, but it still doesn’t explain why all N Irish characters, including the actress playing his own sister, called yon man “Donnle” and the England-based detective stuck religiously to Dohnal!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 02:07 PM

I mind the reign/rein confusion too.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 01:50 PM

Howdy, Geoff!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 01:18 PM

'Invite' has been around a long time as a perfectly justifiable noun.

See Words at play.

In Ireland the name Dónal is usually pronounced to rhyme with 'tonal', though parts of Belfast may be an exception.

My personal bugbear is the often inappropriate use of the word 'fury' in newspaper headlines when mere 'anger' or 'concern' may be more appropriate. I'm also not fond of the increasing use 'outlined' in newspaper reports instead of the perfectly adequate and more accurate 'described'.

Ta-ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 11:15 AM

Nucular. I mean, what's so hard about saying "nuclear"??

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 11:10 AM

One mistake I have seen several times recently is “reign(s)” when it should be “rein(s)”, e.g “Joe Bloggs took the reigns”, or “I’ll have to reign him in”.

And a peeve while watching an episode of “Hope Street” last week (BBC TV drama series based in N Ireland) - investigating the death of a person called Donal - which is correctly pronounced like Donald, but without the second D. All characters except one pronounced it that way, but the lovely Leila persistently called him Dohnal. No need, she had a neutral English accent. Why didn’t the producer, continuity person, or even the bluntly-spoken other characters ever correct her? It stuck out like a sore thumb!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 06:53 AM

Reminds me of when I read about some dead bloke in America who'd been funeralised...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 06:45 AM

A young mother in my village told me she'd 'breakfasted the kids a bit earlier than usual.'. That made me smile I must say.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 06:38 AM

I see that the British athletes at the Winter Olympics, at least up to yesterday, had failed to podium... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 06:13 AM

You are an erudite man, Doug, and I take your point, as ever. However, the distinction between the two senses is getting blurred, and therein lies my peeve. But I'm not that bothered. As Eliza says, it's more a source of amusement than irritation, generally earning a smirk and a tapping on the temple with one's index finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 04:56 AM

"Gift" was discussed in November 2020. Your comment at the time, Steve, included:
       .......... people who allegedly misuse "gift" ............
Perhaps you weren't as peeved back then.

A post from Reihard, on the subject, included:
The OED defines gift as a verb too besides the noun and gives as examples:
..............................................
Daily Telegraph: You can be ... gifted up to £90,000 before you become liable to tax.
J.C. Lees: The Regent Murray gifted all the Church Property to Lord Sempill.


"Give" and "gift" are not interchangeable

To "gift", as a short form of to "give as a gift", is a specific form of to "give", meaning "give of your own volition, without expecting recompense".

A sportsman who, for whatever reason, decided not to challenge for first place could be said to have gifted his opponent the win.

To "give", as in the sense of "pass to me" something that I already owned, such as:
      "Could you give me my coat, please"
would not be to "gift".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 03:38 AM

A verb used as a noun is becoming quite popular. For example, 'I got an invite...'.
But as you have said on here in the past Steve, language evolves and new ways of expressing oneself emerge. I agree with you - we no longer speak as we did in medieval times.
Obviously, modern media swiftly disseminates these new language forms.
I waver between being peeved and being entertained and amused. ("Innit?")

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 08:25 PM

To "gift" someone instead of to give them something. It's spreading like a horrible rash...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 07:52 PM

I have complained before about the phrase Stray Bullet.

I write newspapers when I see it.

Reporting that *this* time I heard back from a Washington Post reported that he promises (his word) to avoid it.

Yay, the power of the pen.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 05:39 PM

As someone prone to mania, I try to avoid passions.

That said I am up to 3x mahjongg a week...