12 String Guitars - why?

Subject: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:26 AM

What are 12 string guitars all about? I hate 'em.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:33 AM

More noise, more internal harmonies on each chord (well, repeats of existing harmonies). It's important to me that the bass strings are not overwhelmed by the octaves and trebles, but happily that is the case on my Mugen THE78-12. If you are playing internal melodies within the chords, they have the double-stopped quality of Noel Redding's bass work on the Hagstrom 8-string bass with Hendrix - or if you prefer, of an octave mandola although the chord inversions are different.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:44 AM

Pete Seeger ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:48 AM

Pete who?

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:54 AM

Are you extracting the urine?

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:10 AM

nah.

The fact that Pete Seeger may play one does not make it right! Bill Caddick also plays one, I just don't see the point.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:15 AM

Try Leadbelly.

Who?

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:33 AM

1) They are sexy
2) Leadbelly

How many reasons do you need?

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:34 AM

Leadbelly - 12 string?

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Suffet
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:15 AM

Greeings:

Like other instruments in the guitar family, the 12-string guitar can be used for several purposes.

• Leadbelly used it as a loud rhythm instrument to accompany his loud tenor voice. He also used it for thumb leads to repeat the melody in caller-response fashion between vocal phrases.

• Jesse Fuller was essentially a one-man band, and he used the 12-string guitar because its full bodied sound gave the feeling that it was more than a single instrument.

• Mark Spoelstra used it to play complicated rhythmic and melodic conversations between the bass and the treble.

• Pete Seeger does all of the above, but he also uses it for soft accompaniments, where its array of overtones provides a richness than neither his banjo nor a 6-string guitar can supply.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: banjoman
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:16 AM

I have owned and played lots of 12 stringers and should make the point that if you just want something a bit louder than your 6 string then suggest you get an amplifier, as the 12 string is, in my opinion, a completely different instrument which shares the same chord structure as the 6 string. I use mine for specific pieces.

Incidentally Silas - Leadbelly played a Stella 12 string and is regarded as a virtuoso on the instrument. I was fortunate enough to own a Stella until some traveller pinched it and then lost it in a fire.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:20 AM

Whatever, as they say, turns you on! ~~ but what, precisely, is "sexy" about a 12-string guitar? [I have no particular axe to grind {no pun intended} in this controversy, as I think the world is quite wide enough to accommodate both 6- and 12-string guitars, and it is a pure matter of taste as to whether one prefers to play one or the other or both ~~ but I am just curious as to what Greg finds 'sexy' about them.]

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:30 AM

12-strings are not always noiser. My EKO 12 Ranger (1968) is quieter okayed hard than my Aria and Takamine 6's. My Takamine 12 throws a lot of sound out.

I think 12's suit different types of song at different times. The harmonics are truly wonderful and some songs seem to be lifted by them that little bit more. They are quite good when part of a band too and not just played alone.

Versatility is increased with a 12 I think because you always get more harmony by it's nature.

I love most stringed instruments. 12's are just a different tool in the whole musical armoury

mp

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:41 AM

Terrible typo! okayed (ist line) was meant to be played

Sorry

mp

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:48 AM

Well, the 12-string has its good points and bad points, right? Good point is that it has a unique sound which is very rich and melodious.

Bad point is that you have 12 strings to change and to keep in tune! And it can feel a bit cumbersome compared to a 6-string, specially if it's not set up quite right.

But some people love them, and for some it is their primary instrument. I think that's the case for Gordon Bok, who plays an Apollonio 12-string. Gordon Lightfoot has used a 12-string on a fair number of his songs.

There's a woman in my local area who plays nothing but the 12-string. She has an utterly superb Taylor 12-string that plays like a dream, being perfectly set up, and she plays it very well. I owned a Guild 12-string for a while, a great big heavy jumbo guitar, and I found it interesting, but never got too good at playing it. Eventually I took the octave strings off, and played it as a 6-string instead. ;-) Then I finally sold it to someone.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:00 AM

Guitars with double strings are the older type of instrument - even though it was difficult to get good strings for them way back, and someone had to devise better ways to make them too - devising frets and fan struts.

The four and five course guitars evolved into the modern six stringed ones, then technology did a double take and turned up the 12 string - with strings which match.

The guitar seems to have been an instrument in need of better technology for a long time before it got it.

Anne

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:08 AM

One might ask the same of any instrument. No end to stupid questions.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:11 AM

In case anyone still doesn't know why 12-strings are sexy, have a listen to this: Leadbelly sings the Midnight Special

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM

Silas,Listen to Blind Willie McTell.

I can't be arsed to say why.The music speakes for itself!

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:52 AM

Nice job there by Leadbelly! What brand of guitar was he playing?

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:57 AM

12-strings: they came about so The Rooftop Singers could do `Walk Right In`.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:05 AM

Leadbelly was reputed to play a ladder-framed Stella tuned 4 semitones down from concert to C. I think it is still in his museum.

Space Oddity would not be the same without David Bowie's Hagstrom BJ12E on it.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:07 AM

Down to "C"! Well, that would really strengthen the bass end, wouldn't it? Nick Apollonio specializes in building 12-strings, and he recommends tuning them down to "D".

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:25 AM

It wouldn't necessarily make it louder down at the deep end. That is largely a matter of resonance, mostly of the top, and ladder frames behave very differently from X-braced guitars. I keep all of my 12s up at concert, but only use light (10-47) strings.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:28 AM

I see. I thought it might produce a louder bass, because when I tune a 6-string down to dropped D, for example, that low bass end seems to have a lot of authority.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM

Hmmm this brings back guilty memories of the twelve string I got a couple of years back and still needs its first new set of strings putting on.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:58 AM

Richard Bridge suggests that Leadbelly tuned down two tones(bottom string to C). I have also seen other suggestions, that he commonly tuned down to D. Maybe he varied. What I am certain of is that in the Midnight Special clip I linked to earlier he is playing in A-shapes, and it is coming out in the key of A.You can be sure of this from the distictive sound of the open E A and D strings. ie he is either playing on a conventionally tuned guitar in A, or in a down tuned guitar capoed up as many frets as he tuned down in semitones. The latter is quite likely I would think.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:06 PM

I have also seen suggestions that Leadbelly tuned down to B - in fact I think there was a thread on here about it a year or so ago.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:06 PM

Lead Belly tuned down to B(sometimes Bflat). I think that Blind Willie McTell tuned down to A.
Think of it as a baritone guitar.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:14 PM

Ah - here is more info: -

thread.cfm?threadid=4600

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:11 PM

well errrm... 12 string acoustics can sound a bit effete
and encourage the playing of all sorts
of girly MOR [ahem...] wine bar 'acoustic soft rock'...


..but a 12 string solid body Shergold electric in the hands of a real manly rough cidered up guitar thug
overdriving a class A valve amp...

proper job beat music!!!!!!


http://www.shergold.co.uk/imgviewer.html?class=shergoldinfo&name=leaflet1-2.jpg&returnto=originfo.html

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM

. . . and there ya have it, folks.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM

Gave my mid 60's Martin 12 string to my brother. Even perfectly setup it was hard to play for me, and I finger pick so that killed that, and then I just didn't like the sound ... I guess it is all a matter of taste. My brother now plays it as a 6 string ... hmmm didn't think of that LOL .. I should have kept it

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:35 PM

Space Oddity would not be the same without David Bowie's Hagstrom BJ12E on it.

It's debatable whether Bowie played that instrument on the actual recording of 'Space Oddity'. The main guitarist, doing most of the guitar work on that single, was the late (and very great) Mick Wayne, who was paid a flat rate of £10 for his work on the record.

For those who don't know Mick, he led a fairly underground group in the '60s called "Juniors Eyes", did a spell with the Pink Fairies and toured with Joe Cocker - principally on the US tour of "Mad Dogs and Englishmen". I knew him and his bass-playing brother Rob (still my solicitor and best friend!) in the late '60s and early '70s, before his very untimely death in an apartment fire in the US. He was one of the very best of musicians.

Apologies for the thread-jacking - 'twas the mention of 'Space Oddity' that triggered it...

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM

hi Dan

I had a Yamaha 12 string and like you at the time I finger-picked mostly.I suppose that I really didn't try too hard so I sold it on to my brother-in-law who still plays it but he just strums it as a rhythm guitar.

I am not sure how it would have sounded with only six strings ????

Never tried that.

I just never managed to get the sound I wanted out of it. Maybe I wasn't holding my mouth right...lol

Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:08 PM

Okay, so they work far better for solid strumming or carter picking than for fingerpicking, correct?

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:13 PM

Historically, many hand-plucked stringed instruments have been double strung. The lute in its many permutations (including the mandolin, which is actually a small lute that people still play, not knowing that it is, historically, a small lute), the Spanish vihuela, the early guitars.

The granddaddy of most of these instruments was the Moorish oud, which was introduced into Spain in the seventh century (I believe, but I wasn't actually there). The word oud (actually "al oud") morphed linguistically into "lute." The doubled strings were called "courses." The fairly standard, basic lute (CLICKY) had five courses, and a top single string called a "chanterelle."

Then, there is the direct ancestor of the modern guitar and the 12-string guitar:   the baroque guitar (CLICKY), which had five courses (five doubled strings).

Here is a sample of a local Seattle girl (Elizabeth CD Brown, who teaches guitar and lute locally) playing a baroque guitar:   (TWANG!!)

So the 12-string guitar is sort of a modern version of the vihuela.

I've heard a twelve string guitar played like a classic guitar, and it sounds like a harpsichord with an excess of testosterone.

Don Firth

P. S. Why a 12-string guitar? Might as well ask, "Why a big grand piano?" when there are much smaller spinets that take up less space.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM

primer lesson in electric 12 string..

enjoy vintage Seachers, Byrds, Beatles LPs..


pick out the chiming riffs and lead lines..

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,Ian Gill
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:16 PM

May as well hate oboes or dulcimers or ... I used to play in a band with someone who opined [tongue in cheek ?] that Blowzabella would have been a great band if they'd got rid of those infernal kazoo players...
    12 string guitars - why not !

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Brian May
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:38 PM

What a bloody stupid question . . .

I don't like Rap music, so I just don't listen to it.

There are some patient answers above. Personally, I love them and have just bought a D12-28 Martin and it's a beaut.

Like a respondent above, I use it only for specific numbers where it can be played very softly to give a deep background accompaniment, or pick out certain strings to underline the melody - that all with a soft flatpick.

Also, it can be finger-picked. Mine is tuned two semi-tones down, although it doesn't need to be.

Lovely instrument. So, if you don't like them, exercise your democratic right to ignore them.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:03 PM

As Pete Seeger once said, "You don't have to play a lot of notes. But just be sure that the notes you do play are important."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Cretzon
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:27 PM

Someone else's views on the 12 stringer, following a similar question. Difference is, though - his views are worth listening to. Matter of opinion, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ0nPBRbXLM

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:09 PM

My 12's are ordinary concert pitch and I can pick easy enough with a capo up to 5th fret

mp

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:19 PM

Thanks for all the good info, folks.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: s&r
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

I always think it's like playing a tremolo tuned mouth organ vs a blues harp. The tremolo is the beat betwee two notes that are nearly the same (or nearly an octave apart)

Stu

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: maeve
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:38 PM

Gordon Bok "A Rogue's Gallery of Songs for the 12 String"
http://www.timberheadmusic.com/audio/McKeonsComing_clip.mp3

http://www.timberheadmusic.com/audio/Belamena_clip.mp3

http://www.timberheadmusic.com/audio/Blackbird_clip.mp3

These are enough reasons for me.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:04 PM

In the hands of the masters of the instrument, the sounds created to enhance a given song will create a final production that makes the term "gestalt" a profundity devoutly to be wished.

Listen to what the master of various individual stylistic perfections can do with a 12-string guitar----and you will understand.

Leadbelly--if only for his song "Fannin Street" he is number one in my estimation.

Bob Gibson -- dozens of great uses of the instrument on many records and hundreds of songs.

Gordon Bok--similar results

Michael Cooney--to my ears he is the only one to perform "Fannin Street" close to what Leadbelly did on it.

Pete Seeger--Pete's version of "Bells of Rhymney" was truly a tour deforce.

There are others, but these come to me tonight right off the top.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:32 PM

Leo Kottke was the reason I was attracted to the 12 string. I have a good one, use it a lot. Sometimes it's the jingle jangle, sometimes the harmonic structure of chords, sometimes just because the tonal texture is different than the over-used 6 string.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:01 PM

Don't forget "The Seekers" who had a wizard 12-string player that always sounds great

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: 12 String Guitars - why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:10 AM

I'm convinced that the appeal of early Beatles music was that they simulated the sound of the 12-string with their electric instruments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_6b4-N9Uo

What do you think?

Keep in mind that it's one thing to have a sound like that on your stereo, where you can just turn it down if it bugs you. It's something else to be in a live situation (session, church) where somebody might be whacking away right into a sensitive ear.