'More pretentious than Bellowhead'

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 11:21 AM

Not quite what I meant, CS. Perhaps I should have used Stanton Drew.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:52 AM

Phew, I risked both those blue clickies with more than a tad of anxiety..

Snail, punishment? I'll say! In fact that's the top secret location where us poor innocent amateur circle-jerkers are ritually sacrificed by the circle-jerk illuminati overlords, it's a bit like the Wicker Man crossed with the Bilderburg Group and Cecil Sharp House.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:10 AM

blue clicky

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:09 AM

The pnishments if you do it on a Sunday are severe.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 09:54 AM

"afore ye drink ye whisky
ye'll eat the cum sodden bisky"

Wow, thanks for that. It's great to see so many variants of these traditional folk customs.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:43 AM

In Scotland, it's called Eat The Biscuit.

There's an old travellers song about it:

Wha's tae finish last?
Ye'll aye hae tae fast
afore ye drink ye whisky
ye'll eat the cum sodden bisky

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:14 AM

I think you are getting your traditions a little mixed up, Crow Sister. The Circle Jerk has a distinctly American sound to it. I think the English (Public School) equivalent is the Daisy Chain.

I wouldn't really know, I didn't go to Public School*.

*For USA readers, a public school in the UK is what you would call a private school. What you call a public school we would call a state school.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:11 AM

Oh! I may have heard it somewhere before but memory fails. I think the melody goes

tum tee tum tee tum tee tum

tum tee tum tee tuuuuummm tee

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 07:42 AM

"I am reasonably sure that a fair few of the celebraty enjoy a circle jerk now and then, themselves."

Good point. I'm sure there's fewer disappointingly mediocre circle-jerks amongst professional circle-jerkers.

Otherwise here's a fragment of a brilliant old ballad I just collected:

A circle-jerk a circle jerk
A fiddley diddley doo
You tickled my fancy mary dear
and I did tickle yours too

Bob and bill and sarah was there
A fiddley diddley dee
And if only there were more ye olde village traditions like this one
then there'd be far fewer folk songs about unwanted pregnancies and suicide oh.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 01:33 PM

I prefer the circle jerk of mediocraty (note spelling) where I have been fortunate to be exposed to some pretty phenomenal talent sans pretentious and precious behaviour. I am reasonably sure that a fair few of the celebraty enjoy a circle jerk now and then, themselves.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 10:20 AM

"Mediocre only counts in the midst of a Circle Jerk!"

Which begs the question of course what makes a really top quality circle jerk as opposed to the more mediocre variety? And is this kind of thing traditional at folk events?

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 10:04 AM

Bellowhead are ok but i really don't like the short one who was standing behind the one with the fiddle last year.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:38 PM

Dick Miles is more pretentious than Bellowhead, and he is old.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:29 PM

Vic Smith, please note the name Joe Townsend,and my nephew, and a fine Fiddle player.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:27 PM

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Dave - PM
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 10:46 AM

Joe Townsend. Now there's a fiddle player/violinist/musician who seems able to transcend styles with ease. One of a very few. The only other player I've ever heard who has been able to do that convincingly is Giles Lewin.

yes you are right, and he is my nephew.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:10 PM

One of the most annoying things about this thread is to have been able to finally expose the mystical "Inner Circle" that Lizzie Cornish is always going on about, because these people apparently get to spout their worthless opinions far more *potently* than the rest of us!
And here they are finally exposed (or not):

GUEST,Catherine Foster
GUEST,Dorothy Peterson
GUEST,Gary Keeper
GUEST,Appleseed
GUEST,Barry Denning
GUEST,D.Brinkman

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:46 PM

Don't get up on your bloody high horse, FFS!

Mediocre only counts in the midst of a Circle Jerk!

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:20 PM

How fortunate we are to have someone to tell us what constitutes "mediocre."

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM

IP addresses are not the answer - but MAC addresses are harder to spoof.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 12:47 PM

Taste is subjective. I prefer Jim Eldon to bellowhead but not on the basis of any attempt to judge musical ability. I will be out singing and playing tonight in my own mediocre way, hopefully with others, who no doubt will be of varying abilities. It will be an enjoyable evening and after all is'nt that the point. It is a social activity not a competion. let us try and lighten up

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:02 AM

I'm not sure what Crow Sister's point was either but mine was that outbursts such as Ruth Archer's at 12 Oct 10 - 05:46 PM are hardly justified when, with one exception, all the nastiness and some of the righteous outrage probably all come from the same person having a larf.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:53 AM

We all have an IP address. Can't multiple GUEST posters be tracked by their IP address and blocked?

I'm no IT expert, but surely there's a way to prevent this kind of puerile behaviour (which is several levels lower than spraying graffiti or proliferating viruses, IMHO)?

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:50 AM

Ed: Pretty obvious, I'd have thought....ie that there's some concrete evidence that the suspicions of some people (that one or two people have been "guesting" under multiple identities and that those people are the ones who've been slagging off Bellowhead) are well-founded.

ie, that it's not a whole tribe of "nasty, vicious, anal...etc...mudcatters" but just a couple of visiting non-mudcatters, whether with Bellowhead connections or not, who are sitting back, watching the fireworks and having a laugh. Little things.........

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:46 AM

Ed, until an unknown person (or perhaps persons plural, but I somehow doubt it) decided to troll the thread under a number of identities, it was actually quite a peaceable well-mannered discussion (as was pointed out by Pip and Raymond). After it turned crap however some Mudcat regulars turned up to say "I told you so, Mudcat's horrible and this thread proves it!"

This trolling and in particular the backlash it caused, made one of our nice guys Will Fly to feel pretty crap about starting this thread, so much so that he felt like buggering off. That's a shame, because it clearly wasn't his fault, or indeed the fault of any genuine Mudcatters (regular GUESTS included).

I guess all I'm getting at is that if you weed out the trolls, Mudcat clearly isn't all that bad, but unfortunately it is easy to turn it into a crap place if you feel like signing in under multiple GUEST identities, as was suspected and indeed has been demonstrated here.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM

I'm sorry, Crow Sister, and perhaps I'm a bit dim, but what is supposed to be gleaned by comparing those lists?

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:21 AM

Those who were really upset by the horridness of this thread and indeed Mudcat in general, might like to compare the first list (posted by Snail) to the second one (as posted by Joe Offer on Will's leaving thread):

"From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:06 AM
At great personal cost, I have gone through this whole thread looking at who said what.
Apart from one bit of gratuitous nastiness from Continuity Jones, all the attacks on Bellowhead and other professional artists came from -
GUEST, Catherine Foster
GUEST,Dorothy Peterson
GUEST,Gary Keeper
GUEST,Appleseed
and
GUEST,Barry Denning"

Joe Offer: "There is evidence of some identity manipulation in the "Bellowhead" thread, but it is a bit difficult at times to tell which is which.
In the "Bellowhead" thread, the following posters are of questionable identity:
      GUEST, Catherine Foster
      GUEST,Dorothy Peterson
      GUEST,Gary Keeper
      GUEST,Appleseed
      GUEST,Barry Denning
      GUEST,D. Brinkman
      and probably a few others..."

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:38 AM

Hannah and Sam were superb at The Unison Club, Lincoln a couple of weeks ago. Nice, talented people...............and 110% UNPRETENTIOUS!

Their CD, 'Catches and Glees' is a treat!

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Julie Hindley
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:04 PM

For those of you who appreciates Sam Sweeney and Hannah James we might squeeze you in to our house concert on saturday night in Doncaster, 01302 854864

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Jerry Simon
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 12:45 PM

Been thinking about some of the stuff here since reading it yesterday. Thought: what's pretentious about Bellowhead? Personally, I don't find BH pretentious in the slightest - what are they pretending to be that they're not?
Thought: I am in absolute awe of the way James Fagan can deliver a song. Maybe that poster has never really listened with due attention. Nancy's fiddling. Sam's fiddling. Mediocre? Really? No way.
Thought: I don't WANT all the performers at folk festivals to be "professional" as opposed to "eager amateurs". I REALLY don't. If e.g. Whitby was all "professional musicians" on big stages, and I was just there to be ticket-fodder, I would hate it, wouldn't bother going.
Thought: Who the hell were "folk-songs " collected from anyway?
Thought: I LOVE it that "folk music" can be performed by far-from-professional musicians & singers, and that the many of the folk professionals value, encourage, and even apparently ENJOY offerings by ordinary people who love this music (and are co-owners of it too).

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Neil
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 10:41 AM

Lol Les! While my wife thinks I'm a real gem I'd better state for the record that I am not the much more famous Neil D that you reference. You never know who might get the wrong idea on this thread.
                                    Neil Devore

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 09:25 AM

Good point Mr Diamond

L in C#

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM

Part of the post that started it all read: "What upsets me so much is that this is music that our entire nation should be celebrating and as long as we present it in this kind of way, Joe Public isn't going to sit up and take notice. No other nation would stand for their traditional music being treated as such."
    Well many other nations treat their traditional music like a museum piece, kept behind glass and dusted off for the occasional history lesson. You Brits are lucky to have a healthy traditional scene that attracts thousands of people to clubs and festivals. I don't think that even the U.S. has as vibrant an atmosphere for trad music. While this discussion has become acrimonious at times, I think all here would find it preferable to no discussion at all for lack of interest.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

*slagging, not flagging

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Irritableguy
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 08:58 AM

Whoah, hang on a minute sunshine! I wasn't flagging Bellowhead off, I was defending them. I love that band and I love Jim Morays music.
I was criticising the people who are saying nasty shit about them.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Jack The Shed
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 08:53 AM

Glad you've learned some manners Ralphie, the F-word is so unnecessary.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 08:30 AM

GUEST Jack the Shed? What???
Sorry. You come on as a GUEST
GUEST=TROLL
Goodbye.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Jack The Shed
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 07:52 AM

I agree Ralphie, we should all follow your wondrous example and tell people we don't agree with to Fuck Off.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 07:46 AM

"For goodness sake people IT'S A WIND UP! "

So now this is officially a WUT?

A Wind Up Thread?

So let's wind it up... :-P

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:38 AM

What a hugely enjoyable thread! Thanks all.
Whether GUESTS are trolls or members of the band having a laugh is really immaterial.
Having known most of the members of the band for many years. I can say that they are dedicated musicians and likeable people, just trying to earn a crust. And they work bloody hard at it.
I suspect that the detractors have no musical ability themselves, and are therefore jealous.
Simple solution.
If you like a particular artist or band...Great. Buy the CDs, go to the gigs, Shout it to the world. Whatever.
If you don't like an artist/band, Great. Don't buy the CDs, don't go to the gigs, and Don't Comment.
As someone above has said. Do all you trolls realise how hateful your personal comments can be?
No...I don't suppose you do.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:06 AM

At great personal cost, I have gone through this whole thread looking at who said what.

Apart from one bit of gratuitous nastiness from Continuity Jones, all the attacks on Bellowhead and other professional artists came from -

GUEST, Catherine Foster
GUEST,Dorothy Peterson
GUEST,Gary Keeper
GUEST,Appleseed
and
GUEST,Barry Denning

further interjections were made by -

GUEST,Bryn Terfel
GUEST,Lakey Hill
GUEST,irritable guy
and
GUEST,Jack The Shed

Apart from Catherine Foster, who posted three times to the Bellamy thread, none of these people has ever posted to another thread.


Even the apparently habitual GUESTs have to be looked at with some suspicion. They may not be who they seem.

For goodness sake people IT'S A WIND UP!

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Lowden J
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:59 AM

I've just bought a Bellowhead CD and on 1st listening have to say I'm disappointed; it's not to my taste. The disappointment is that it's not to my taste. They are obviously a dynamic band and talented musicians who will be very entertaining on stage for sure. I will still take a chance on future folk CD purchases, and aim to broaden my taste in music along the way.
For further entertainment I will continue to smile and giggle at comments like those of Ms Catherine Foster, but at the same time feel a tad sorry for the likes of her and other sad souls...

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:41 AM

"Are you calling Catherine Foster a nasty, vindictive, grumpy git?"
I'd be more inclined to call her/him a WUM who has achieved exactly what they set out to do.

Reverting to my post of 06/10/2010 sadly I rest my case.
For all her indignation at being called a wind up merchant Guest Catherine Foster has not returned to substantiate which aspects of traditional music she is so passionate about although I doubt that anyone who dismisses the performers that she did as mediocre can appreciate much about the music at all.
Unfortunately the thread has decended to such an extent that it has played totally into the hands of the Mudcat detractors (see fRoots posts etc) and I would endorse the feelings of some of the regular contributors regarding guest posters.
The crass comments regarding Sam Sweeney certainly hasn't affected his booking at our place and we'll be pleased to welcome him, along with Hannah James, to Tiger Folk, Long Eaton on 7th November.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: mattkeen
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:29 AM

Anyway...

Whats so special about BH is that they are exciting risk takers and that sometimes means it can fall over into a bit of a mess.

Thats the point - it might be great it might not be. Thats why its exciting.

To think they are not talented musicians is absurd.... and nobodys even mentioned Paul Sartin's playing credentials yet


Finally : Pete Flood is great. So there

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:22 AM

The Luvvies (TV 2003)

An awards show which, instead of giving out awards for achievement, tracks down and awards celebrities who have disgraced themselves in one way or another during the past year.
Director:
Russell Norman
Release Date:
15 February 2003 (UK)


Hmmm lucky we don't get it here in the old penal colony....

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:12 AM

QUOTE
cannot even play any instrument at all!
UNQUOTE

To explain what I meant by that - while it is true that singers do have a powerful natural instrument - their voice - my point is that playing a physical hunk of complex tubing, or mechanical things that can break, or an instrument that needs to be 'blown into tune', etc gives one a different understanding of 'how music is made' than just opening one's mouth.

Thus I do tend, even though I use them myself, to look down a little on the purely electronic boxes if that is the ONLY 'instrument' one ever plays - they are 'too slick' - always in 'tune' - often dully mechanically so, and take no effort to manhandle into playing a tune.

This effort makes one appreciate not only making music oneself, but also appreciate the mastery of another, as well as the whole history of imposing one's will on the physics of nature to make the bastard thing play in tune! :-)

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:00 AM

I'm rather disappointed that Ms Foster hasn't returned to explain her original comment. If it was a troll, it was an unusually articulate and thought-provoking one which could have turned into an interesting debate instead of being side-tracked into name-calling and abuse.

Calling something, or someone, "pretentious" is an easy way of putting down an innovation you don't like. But innovation is how the music moves forwards. Most of the aspects of the music we now take for granted, such as the use of the guitar, were once innovations, but have become so established that we don't think of them in those terms. All innovations will at the time have attracted both praise and criticism, but some come to be generally accepted, while others turn out to be blind alleys.

If you don't like Bellowhead, or Jim Moray, or anyone else, that's a matter of personal choice. There are enough people doing different things that you should be able to find something you do like. However, to criticise them for doing something different is to miss the point.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:44 AM

"Why do people feel the need to slag others off? What can the "decent majority" on this forum do about it?"

I don't know if the 'decent majority' can do anything except remain positive and avoid being dragged into these 'discussions'. The folk fraternity, as one might expect, just seems to reflect society as a whole ('hole?') where some individuals are driven by ideas of self-perfection and delight in the condemnation and criticism of others. This is very sad and may well be a flaw in the human species, or perhaps it is what has driven human life to 'win' in the battle with other species. Sad!

As far as Bellowhead are concerned I like them, and if I didn't then I wouldn't be 'slagging them off' on this forum. It was The Spinners and The Corries who were my introduction to folk music back in the late 60's and they have received a lot of criticism on this forum over the years.

I hope that this forum can overcome the negativity and confrontations that some contributors revel in. If it doesn't, no problem, I'll just stop logging on.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:35 AM

"free-for-all bile-fest...festering turd of a thread..."

Oh really? Why shouldn't it be characterised instead by the warmly glowing vein of sweet reasonableness that has run through it from the start?

Face facts: giving a thread a title like 'More pretentious than Bellowhead' is inevitably going to attract people who like to lob stink bombs over the fence. And if you choose to become a public performer you implicitly accept all the reactions your performances are going to generate, good and bad. Some people deal with this nimbly and with dignity (take a bow Mr J Moray): they should teach this on the Newcastle Folk Degree , perhaps...

People have opinions, and are entitled to express them in language they feel comfortable with. Free speech – one each!, as Roy Harper used to say.

Somebody thinks Sam Sweeney is shit. No problemo, surely, amongst grown ups? I happen to think Sam is a man of awesome gifts, and not only because he lives up the road from me and was polite to me once. He can not only play drums and fiddle at the same time, he can also peel an orange and scratch himself between the shoulder blades, all without recourse to multi-tracking. Hear it all on his new live CD Eight Arms And An Anglepoise Back Scratcher, Mudcat Records CRAP1

And he's still only 12 and a half.

What threads like this also do is attract the likes of The Borchester Echo and Ruth Archer, who pop their heads round the door just to remind us why they don't pop their heads round the door any more. Interesting contrast. Ruth and Echo, as I understand it, are people who have a certain amount of power and influence on the folk scene, and seem to be easily outraged by those whose only power is to shout Yah Boo and run away. They take umbrage when musos they rub along with are criticised, but are happy enough to spray out quips like "acres of self-regarding wank" at people who aren't part of their charmed circle.

Y'know, over on the fROOTS forum posters have to use their real names and submit a bit of biog. Might be a notion that Mudcat could fruitfully adopt. It's hard to have an informed discussion when some posters know who other posters are and some don't. It kind of excludes newcomers, I think. And we might not end up believing every rude anonymous poster is a member of Bellowhead.

By the way, I am Catherine Foster. I'm wearing my arias as I type. Hope that clears everything up.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Banjiman without cookies
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:16 AM

Oh dear.

Well this thread did make me go and watch Bellowhead on YouTube again and try really hard to like them! I still don't get them, but that is hardly the point.

There is however, no doubt that they are excellent musicians and really shouldn't be subject to gratuitous slagging as to their abilities on this or any other forum. It is simply not true to say that they have no technical merit.... they clearly know what they are doing and appeal to a wide range of people.

Why do people feel the need to slag others off? What can the "decent majority" on this forum do about it?

I've no idea.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:05 AM

I had wondered about the same thing that SueGorgeous does. Are we at all confident that the posts taking the piss out of Bellowhead are not in fact Bellowhead having a jolly jape?

But in any event, the thread was not really about that in the beginning, but about a different cruise-by guest on a different thread criticising a folk festival because it was not opera or modern jazz (or something like that). If that cruise-by "Foster" was serious (and I somehow doubt that too then the excellent analysis by Tom Bliss above perfectly demonstrated the ignorance of that Foster.

In fact I am tempted to consider whether that Foster was actually one of our resident horse definitioners or devotees of meretricious technical excellence. The same discounting of derivation (or "roots" if you prefer) and plans to raise barriers to entry seem to be givens in "Foster"s approach.

I suggest that people are getting wound up about all the wrong things.