Pay to Play what is that about?

Subject: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: olddude
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 03:37 PM

I keep getting these stupid emails from Reverbnation ... "want to play at the Austin TX whatever for new singer/songwriters ... yada yada the application fee is 20 dollars"

What the heck is that about anyway. When does one have to pay an application fee so they can play ... anyone else get this stuff ...

seems like crazy to me ... ahhh I could be wrong and I know that music ain't what it once was ... so now they charge you to play for them ...

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 05:27 PM

I found this and also this.

Pay to play sounds a little fishy...I didn't read through the web site yet, though I expect someone is making money I'm not convinced it will be the musicians.

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 07:56 PM

I had a closer look and found a lot under Folk genre including many in my area whom I patronize by attending concerts and/or buying music. From Gordon Lightfoot to less well known but still wonderful acts including The Blackest Crow, The Undesirables, Rosemary Phelan, Evalyn Parry, Jason LaPrade and many, many more. These are dedicated music makers all of them. I checked the "local" option when I searched on the Folk genre. There are users world wide.

The question I have is, why would ReverbNation have your e-mail address and why do you suppose they are spamming you?

All the same it's an interesting site with some tools that may be worth it for some musicians to buy--they offer co-ordinated web, social net & e-mail services that many would use sooner or later if they're more than a casual performer.

Thanks for bringing it up. I got to listen to some good music as well as check out some interesting stuff that isn't so much to my taste!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:37 PM

Pay to play is quite common in UK for Unknown Bands - They pay to do a support and hopefully sell enough CDs and Product to make a small profit
Also , bands pay to use a Venue , and put someone on the door to collect admission coin - Again , in MY opinion its a Rip off for a venue to get a live Act and NOT pay anything !!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 09:07 PM

Pay to play maybe common but it cannot be tolerated and is a hot issue for the musicians union.

If bands agree to pay to play they are being taken for a ride.

If promoters are putting on a night it is becaue there is money to be made.

That money is made from selling the band to the public - the band does the worl and the promoters take the cash.

For a band to play for the privilege of being sold is complete lunacy and pay to play venues should be boycotted at all costs.

Never pay to play.

Why would a venue pay musicians if it can get musicians to pay instead?

What happens to the live music industry if this continues?

This is why many musicians I know don't bother playing in the UK but instead enjoy lucrative tours in Europe.

It isn't just wierd it is an insult to musicians.

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 09:25 PM

At least in UK its NOT something that happens to Folkies - We just do Free Floor Spots in the hope of getting a booking !

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: DebC
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 11:11 PM

I wrote about it in my blog last March.

I hate it. I am on Reverbnation but I refuse to pay to submit to a gig opportunity. I also find the Sonicbids business not my liking either. The only time I have spent money to play is in formal showcases at Folk Alliance. For that organization, I realise that they have costs in getting the demos and applications to the individual jury members and besides, the fee isn't huge.

But this other stuff...I really don't like it and I refuse to participate.

As for Reverbnation, they are trying to compete with Sonicbids (I think) and offer a free service (which i take advantage of) and a paid service. You do have to upgrade to the paid service to submit to the gig opportunities.

But I ain't gonna do it.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 07:03 AM

There are some Uk Musos who are so desperate to be in front of an audience that they would consider paying for a spot.
I met a few.
It seems to me that there are enough spaces in pubs, clubs,colledge bars and theaters that three or four acts could rent the room and take the money on the door themselves. Its works for charity gigs...
and there are already a few in this area doing it.
Good luck to them eh?

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:36 AM

I couldn't afford to pay enough to persuade people to let me perform!

RtS

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:41 AM

...but you could try this:
Jagz Jam

New monthly open to all musicians, bands and solo artists, covering all styles of music.Either jam with the house band*, perform with your own band or do an open mic slot. To book a slot e-mail [e-mail] or just turn up on the night. Admission Free!!!!

I may be in the audience but promise not to join in.

RtS
*included John Rees-Jones on bass, ex-Humphrey Lyttelton band

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:49 AM

Hey, if I charged the acts to play at our folk club and let the audience in for free I might actually make a profit.......

Now there's a thought!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:53 AM

Doh!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:57 AM

..... or I could pay the audience to come out of what the band paid, we'd get more in that way.

I'm liking this more & more.

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:22 AM

Well a banjoist has some excuse for "wrong thinking " I suppose.

I just get confused when surrounded by people that love music and at the same time don't wanna pay for it in one way or another.
Its like one of those polite arguments the middle classes have when they are dividing up the restaurant bill.
performers love to play ,but only if they get payed for it.
audiences love to listen but " isn't it so expensive"
The venue, we want to get more customers in those soft musos are desperate for attention easy money.
the organizer ........ LOL
Were are you retiring to on your folk club earnings you organizers?

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:51 AM

I agree with DEB C,
furthermore it is exploitation and is[imo] another phenomenon that has arrived on the folk scene via the rock scene, it belongs with people like Simon Boak Entrepreneur of the defunct Pickering festival, and all those people who enter the folk scene intent on promoting and commercialising folk music with the intention of making piles of money , every man/woman of them should go where they belong.... the rock scene

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: doc.tom
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:17 AM

I agree with Deb & Dick. Mostly over here (UK) it's young rock/pop bands whopay to play and have to sell so many tickets to their own crowd. The M.U. is dead against it, but there are so many wannabes out there thatthe entrepreneurs (for which read 'rip-off merchants') still make their wad!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:43 AM

doc.tom is absolutely right in every respect.

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: DebC
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:43 AM

Even though I spend a lot of time in the UK, I have not seen the pay-to-play phenomenon as much over there as here in the USA, but then again it might be the circles I travel in.

doc.tom has also described a method that some places use as well over here in the USA and I have encountered it mostly in nightclub settings, not in folk music concert settings and series.

But the above is pay-to-play all the same.

And Dick is correct; it IS exploitation of the musician and it blows my mind how many of us actually do it.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:44 AM

You have to pay to play at most UK folk clubs. At my local club it's £2 for two songs on a PA night and £1 to join in the sing-aroumd! Oh and you are expected to buy a £1 raffle ticket as well!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: DebC
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:00 AM

I realise that you are making a point, Woodsie :-) But I have never had to submit 5-10 quid with my application to play at a folk club or festival in the UK which is what some USA venues are doing via websites such as Sonicbids and the pay version of Reverbnation (I use the free version
).

There is a festival here in the Northeast USA, the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival that will ONLY accept applications through Sonicbids and the artists have to pay a submission fee to submit. I realise it makes the promoter's work a lot easier, but it also eliminates many artists who do not have Sonicbids accounts.

These websites have every right to run their businesses the way they want. I have the right to not participate. It may mean I lose out on performance opportunities, but I am quite okay with that.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: mattkeen
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:24 AM

Pay to play was a huge issue for bands in the 80's - its not a new thing

London top club type gigs (I remember having to pay to play at Marquee and Dingwalls)- fortunately we got rebooked for money! Hoorah!

In London the first lot to come out with a better deal and conditions for bands were the Mean Fiddler venues and for 10 years became very popular with bands and audiences

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: doc.tom
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:31 AM

And just for the record, Woodsie, we also pay to organise our singarounds and concerts!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM

"You have to pay to play at most UK folk clubs. At my local club it's £2 for two songs on a PA night and £1 to join in the sing-aroumd! Oh and you are expected to buy a £1 raffle ticket as well!"

I would guess the folk club organisers also probably pay their fees on these nights as well?

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM

35 years ago at one UK gig, our band got payed not to play..


.. after the first few songs of our set
the organiser realised he'd made a dreadful mistake booking us for his regular audience;
so he give us the agreed cash to quickly eff off back where we came from...

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

What really annoys me about the Reverbnation/Sonicbids submissions and any other number of similar services is it isn't even pay to play. It's "pay to be considered for a slot". It wouldn't surprise me if they select a winner from a hat, anyone'll do as long as they come up with the entry fee.

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: DebC
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:03 AM

You are absolutely correct, Jonny.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:49 AM

plenty of open mics round my way.no fee-just buy your own drink.most of them are paying the organiser too.dont think i would want to pay to play till the free ones all go under ,though i usially buy a raffle ticket at folk club-just out of frienship

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: autoharpbob
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:03 AM

At some clubs I go to you pay less if you play - £1 for singers, £2 if you don't! Seems reasonable to me. One club is totally free, with a great free supper thrown in - not literally!

Subject: RE: Pay to Play what is that about?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

The Greyhound, Wheeler Street, Maidstone was like that. Totally free, nice nibbles.