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Tune Req: Brave Catholics, We Lament Thee

GUEST,steves 17 Oct 10 - 09:30 PM
Joe Offer 18 Oct 10 - 01:02 AM
GUEST,^&* 18 Oct 10 - 04:36 PM
Matthew Edwards 18 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,steves 18 Oct 10 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,steves 18 Oct 10 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,^&* 18 Oct 10 - 06:45 PM
Matthew Edwards 18 Oct 10 - 06:52 PM
Matthew Edwards 18 Oct 10 - 06:59 PM
GUEST,^&* 18 Oct 10 - 07:07 PM
Joe Offer 19 Oct 10 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,steves 19 Oct 10 - 07:46 PM
Matthew Edwards 20 Oct 10 - 03:00 AM
GUEST,John Moulden 22 Oct 10 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,^&* 22 Oct 10 - 09:48 AM
Jim Dixon 26 Oct 10 - 11:04 PM
Joe Offer 27 Oct 10 - 02:41 AM
Matthew Edwards 27 Oct 10 - 02:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Oct 10 - 03:39 AM
Joe Offer 27 Oct 10 - 06:15 AM
GUEST,^&* 27 Oct 10 - 07:26 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Oct 10 - 09:26 AM
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Subject: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,steves
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 09:30 PM

I was wondering if anyone is familiar with a tune or song entitled "Brave Catholics, We Commend Thee". I don't know if it is an oroginal song air or if it is a common air with different lyrics. I assume it dates before the mid nineteenth century. My guess is that it is of Irish origin. If there are any archivists or anyone else who has heard of this song, I would very much like to learn of it.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 01:02 AM

Hi, Steves-
I looked through the old Catholic hymnals I have, and didn't find it. Couldn't find it with my usual Google techniques, either.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:36 PM

Yeah - I'm drawing a blank too. Any more detail - when and where heard, context etc.?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM

Zimmermann's 'Songs of Irish Rebellion' quotes these verses from a broadside "Ireland Emancipated" celebrating the Emancipation Act of 1829:-

"Six millions of brave Catholics
Will support great George's crown...
"

According to the Roud Broadside Index this comes from a broadside in the Madden collection printed in Dublin and beginning "Rejoice you sons of freedom of each religious creed".

Another song in Zimmermann is 'The Banished Defender', sometimes also known as 'The Brave Defender', which begins "Poor Catholics of Erin give ear unto these lines I write". I've never heard anyone sing this, and the fifth verse seems to me to be the nearest I've ever seen to being completely unsingable (now there's a challenge!!!)

"Transubstantiation is the faith that we depend upon;
Look and you will find it in the sixth chapter of St John,
When Moses and Elias they told us of our Heavenly Church,
That we in future ages should suffer persecution much."

I think steves is probably right to locate the song or tune 'Brave Catholics, We Commend Thee' in early 19th century Ireland, and I think there is probably a connection to Daniel O'Connell and Emancipation, but I can't trace anything closer than the above examples.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,steves
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:30 PM

Thank you both for trying to help me find this song or tune. Unfortunately, I have no information on this. I am uncertain whether it is an air or a song. This was the indicated tune listed on a broadside ballad dating from, if I remember correctly, the 1850s. The song describes issues involving Irish Catholics in America. Because the ballad was intended for an Irish audience I assume that it would have been somewhat common in Ireland at that time, possibly dating from 1798 or before. It is possible that it is a political song that was set to a common air of the time. It could possibly be a religious song. However, I am only interested in the tune. I've seached online and in various sheet music libraries without any luck. Does anyone know of an expert in nineteenth century sheet music and broadsides? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,steves
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:34 PM

Matthew Edwards, thank you very much. I was still writing my post before I saw yours.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:45 PM

It may be worth asking John Moulden about this one. He turns up here as GUEST fairly often - otherwise I'll drop him a line.

- and I think I have heard at least one verse with "transubstantiation" in it! A corner of my mind's ear hears Paddy Tunney's voice...


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:52 PM

If anyone could get away with singing a verse including the word "transubstantiation" I'd put money on Paddy Tunney to have done it!

I'm quite curious now, steves, can you add bit more about the American song to which this air belongs?

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:59 PM

"Banks of Dunmore"!!! Paddy learned it from Pat Meehan; see The Stone Fiddle pp.43-44.

"Kind sir, it is an easy matter
To prove to you that you are wrong
Transubstantiation we believe in
You'll find it in the Book of John
And if you want to go further
Sure God he made Peter his own
The keys of his treasure he gave him
To govern the true Church of Rome."

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:07 PM

That's it!


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 02:16 AM

All this time, I was thinking it was a sappy hymn. "Issues involving Irish Catholics in America" sounds far more interesting. If somebody finds the tune, I'll find a way for it to be posted - but please also post the lyrics if you find them.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,steves
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:46 PM

I am very sorry. I made an error concerning the name of the tune itself. The correct tune or song is titled "Brave Catholics, We Lament Thee." That is a very big mistake.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 03:00 AM

Thanks for the correction steves; it has been said that "I was mistaken" are three of the hardest words to write. However already the search for the 'wrong' song has uncovered a couple of interesting songs we didn't know we were looking for, so finding them has a kind of serendipity about it.

Even when engaged on a wild goose hunt, there is still a thrill to the chase. You may now need to be very patient until one of our more persistent song-hunters like Jim Dixon or Q reports back in 5 or 10 years time!

That said I can't find anything to suggest where or when the original air of "Brave Catholics, We Lament Thee" belongs, although an Irish origin still seems the most probable.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:31 AM

Following a request from GUEST,^&* in another thread, that I should try to trace this one, I'm sorry but I've tried various methods over this, and have drawn a blank. No song with those words is in the almost complete Poet's Box collection at the Mitchell Library, Glasgow and my listings of Irish printed ballad sheets gives nothing either.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 09:48 AM

Thank you for that, John.


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Subject: Lyr Add: BATTLE OF PHILADELPHIA (from Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:04 PM

This must be the song that inspired GUEST,steves to search for a tune.

From the Bodleian Library broadside collection, 2806 b.10(67).


Battle of Philedelphia. [sic]
Second Issue of 10,000 copies since March 3, 1855.
PRICE ONE PENNY

This splendid and exquisite piece of poetical composition is just added to the Poet's grand collection, and he hopes to be able to supply the many thousands of his Catholic friends who have of late been inquiring for it. The melancholy event on which this song is written shows that deep and virulent fanaticism which ought properly to belong to another class of persons than the enlightened (?) Protestants of America is not yet eradicated from the hearts of men, and says a great deal for their love and admiration of the virtuous and charitable principles which the great Founder of Christianity inculcated and taught while on earth. Altogether, it was one of the most heartless and brutal onslaughts made on a virtuous Catholic body these many years, and shows to what extent they would go if their power was as strong as their inclination. It can only be had in the Poet's Box, [Glasgow.]


TO ALL.
LETTERS and PEITITIONS written by the POET on the shortest notice and most reasonable terms. All parties may rely with confidence on the strictest secrecy being observed.


Air—Brave Catholics, we lament thee.

Come all you Roman Catholics whilst in your native home,
Oh, think on what we suffered for the Holy Church of Rome;
In the town of Philadelphia I mean to let you hear,
We fought our way right manfully when danger did appear.

It was in the year of eighteen hundred and forty-four,
Our enemies assembled us Catholics to devour;
But we being loyal Irishmen assembled as we should,
In a few moments after the streets were filled with blood.

The holy temple of the Lord they levelled to the ground,
Away with Pope and Popery was the word went round:
They pull'd the dead out of the graves most dismal for to see,
They swore they would banish Catholics out of that country.

The first attack they made on us our number was but few,
But out of that small number they killed twenty-two;
The next attack they made on us as you may understand,
We fought our way right manfully to eat up forty-one.

To protect our property, our children and our wives,
We assembled altogether to save their precious lives;
Though we are Roman Catholics and far away from home,
We'll let them know what we can do for the holy Church of Rome.

The sun being set, the day being spent and night fast coming on,
We assembled altogether along with Father John;
We gathered the dead bodies as you may all perceive,
May the Lord have mercy on their souls we laid them in their graves.

The loyal Irish was proved at Waterloo,
If not for us in battle what would the English do;
Though we are in America our friendship will not fail,
We'll still support the Irish cause—the Union and Repeal.

This wake and funeral does grieve my heart full sore,
There were two-and-twenty Irishmen that loved the Shamrock shore;
Now my pen I will lay down I hope their souls are happy,
And their bodies in the grave.


Saturday Morning, April 3, 1858.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:41 AM

There's quite a story behind all this - the Philadelphia Nativist Riots of 1844.
Thanks for finding the lyrics, Jim. I don't know how you do it...
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:50 AM

Well done indeed Jim! - I thought you might discover it eventually, but not so soon as this. Thanks to Joe too for the link to the story.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 03:39 AM

Impressive. But we still haven't got the tune.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:15 AM

Nope. No tune. I've had trouble finding notation for U.S. songs published prior to 1850. You can find broadsides, but musical notation is rare.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:26 AM

Joe

We may, of course, be back to hunting the "sappy hymn" you dreaded! Mind you, if it was a sufficiently well-known hymn to have this tale attached to it, one might expect to come across other references to it.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Brave Catholics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:26 AM

That last verse looks as if somehing has gone wrong in getting it doown on paper.

Incidentally, from the lines

The loyal Irish was proved at Waterloo,
If not for us in battle what would the English do


I'd be inclined to think this might possibly have been penned in England rather America. So far I haven't been able to come upon a tune that fits it comfortably.


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