new orleans and dixieland jazz

Subject: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:24 AM

this all seems to be lumped together as dixieland, as I understand it, NEW Orleans jazz as played by king oliver, had an emphasis on first and third beats, as it was marching music.
Dixieland had an emphasis on 2 and 4 beats as played by the ODJB, THE ODJB were a white band, and New orleans was primarily black or creole musicians.
have I got these facts correct? were the roots of dixie and new orleans different?

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:14 AM

Rex Harris, in his influential but now dated book 'Jazz' (1952) says that '[Dixieland] has no precise meaning but is generally used for jazz which is played in a quasi-New Orleans style by white musicians.' He credits the first Dixieland musician as being Jack Laine (b.1873) who loved the brass bands of New Orleans and formed one of his own, along with a rag-time band. Harris says of Laine's ensembles that 'two Creoles were included in a band from which most "white" jazz stemmed.

He takes the story a little further by mentioning 'Tom Brown's Band from Dixieland' which was heard in New orleans by talent scouts in 1913 and then went north to Chicago in the summer of 1915.


As a jazz fan in the 1950s I can remember how 'New Orleans' jazz became the accepted 'proper' form of traditional jazz (a la Ken Colyer etc)although the term Dixieland was used by bands like Alex Walsh who played in a looser, less formulaic style.

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:57 AM

It always seemed to me , as a not vry good Reed Man , that Dixieland was the more commercial (And American) aspect of the format , while New Orleans was the LESS commercial British treatment

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:06 AM

And then we had what we called "mainstream' - which is also difficult to define. As I recall, there was always an undercurrent of argument when people like Ken Colyer held very firmly to the Bunk Johnson style of playing, where continuous lines from different instruments wove endlessly around each other. Players like Barber preferred a more arranged style.

I personally have always preferred the partially-arranged jazz of Jelly Roll Morton and the Red Hot Peppers, where his carefully prepared scores left spaces for his sidesmen to do their thing - and what scores! And what sidesmen! New Orleans feeling with a high musical intelligence behind it.

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:20 AM

I always associated 'mainstream' with the likes of Ruby Braff.

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:31 AM

I'm reading a fascinating book right now, Bix: The Definitive Biograph of a Jazz Legend by Jean Pierre Lion. Bix and his Wolverines were not New Orleans Jazz. Bix was from Iowa. While the book primariily chronicles Bix's life, Louis Armstrong is interwoven, as they just a couple of years difference in age and great admirers of each other. They were certainly the two most charismatic trumpet players of the twenties. Bix never lived to see the thirties. Bin Crosby was just a couple of months different in age to Bix, and he was very much a jazz singer before he veleoped his crooner style.

I am anxiously awaiting a CD the the Jean Goldkette orchestra which has the prime cuts while Bix and Tram (Frankie Trumbauer) were with the orchesgtra.

I liked Dixeland as a teenager until I heard the old jazz from New Orleans, and bought my first Bix album. Not to knock it excessively, but Dixieland as played by the likes of Pete Fountain was lime green polyester.

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: TinDor
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:01 AM

Dixieland Jazz and New Orleans Jazz is the same thing. The New orleans style of Jazz goes back to Buddy Bolden, the man credited by many Jazz musicians in New Orleans back in those times as "starting it all". "Dixieland" was just the commercial name that it got when white Jazz musicians played "New Orleans Jazz".

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:39 AM

They're similar but they are not identical.

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:12 AM

They are not Identical.
listen to king oliver, OR EARLY LOUIS ARMSTRONG then listen to the ODJB

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Flash Company
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:31 AM

Suggest reading 'Visions of Jazz, The First Century' by Gary Giddins,
Here is a man with no axes to grind in the 'Trad, Mainstream, Modern Feud', he just tells it as he sees it.

FC

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:13 AM

There's an interesting series on BBC Radio 2 just now, "Jazz Junctions". The first was on the ODJB (mainly) and the second on Armstrong. It seems that Jazz as we know it started because the ODJB went to Chicago and started having to play foxtrots in 4/4. Prior to that, everybody in New Orleans, including Bolden, was playing ragtime in 2/4. Armstrong's role, a few years later, was in the development of the improvising soloist.

Subject: RE: new orleans and dixieland jazz
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

Unfortunately the ODJB programmme's gone from the iPlayer, and the Armstrong one's got one day left, but here's the program description:

"Guy Barker continues to explore the history of jazz, focusing on the turning points and pivotal events that have shaped the genre, and discovering some great stories and larger-than-life characters along the way.

In its 100-year history, jazz has seen many changes and developments but, unlike other genres, jazz's direction has frequently changed due to a specific event: a momentary decision, an invention, one performance, or one person's idea. Each episode focuses on what jazz was like directly before this junction, the junction itself, and how things subsequently changed.

Part two, The Birth Of The Solo, considers the legacy of Louis Armstrong. The real soul of all jazz is improvisation, but early jazz musicians were more inclined to extemporise collectively around the melody rather than to perform fully improvised solos. All that changed with the advent of early jazz's greatest improviser and pioneer, Louis Armstrong.

Recordings such as West End Blues, Cornet Chop Suey and Potato Head Blues led the way in a whole new direction for jazz musicians. But where did Louis get his inspiration from? Were his solos purely improvised or had he prepared whole sections in advance? What is it about his music that was so revolutionary and continues to inspire musicians of all styles even today? And was it all about Louis, or were there other great early improvisers who deserve some of the credit?

Fellow trumpeter Guy Barker looks at the birth of the jazz solo with new and archive contributions from Gunther Schuller, 'Wild' Bill Davison, Ted Gioia, Hoagy Carmichael, Budd Johnson, Lewis Porter, Earl 'Fatha' Hines, Dan Morgenstern, Dick Hyman, Artie Shaw and, of course, Louis Armstrong himself."