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Tech: All downloads to cost £1

GUEST,Folk Free Form # 1 19 Oct 10 - 09:32 AM
Tangledwood 19 Oct 10 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 10 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Folk Free Form #1 20 Oct 10 - 07:42 AM
GUEST 20 Oct 10 - 07:47 AM
jacqui.c 20 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM
artbrooks 20 Oct 10 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,999 20 Oct 10 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 20 Oct 10 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 20 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM
Howard Jones 20 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 20 Oct 10 - 01:29 PM
Thompson 20 Oct 10 - 02:29 PM
Crowhugger 20 Oct 10 - 03:07 PM
Young Buchan 20 Oct 10 - 07:05 PM
jacqui.c 20 Oct 10 - 11:12 PM
GUEST 21 Oct 10 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 21 Oct 10 - 03:52 AM
stallion 21 Oct 10 - 05:14 AM
brezhnev 21 Oct 10 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 21 Oct 10 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 11:46 AM
stallion 21 Oct 10 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Ed 21 Oct 10 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 21 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 21 Oct 10 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Ed 21 Oct 10 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 12:47 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 21 Oct 10 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM
GUEST 21 Oct 10 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 21 Oct 10 - 01:30 PM
brezhnev 21 Oct 10 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 21 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM
Howard Jones 21 Oct 10 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 02:21 PM
brezhnev 21 Oct 10 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Ed 21 Oct 10 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,999 21 Oct 10 - 04:19 PM
Howard Jones 21 Oct 10 - 05:53 PM
brezhnev 21 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM
stallion 21 Oct 10 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,999 22 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 22 Oct 10 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,999 22 Oct 10 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 22 Oct 10 - 03:42 PM
Surreysinger 22 Oct 10 - 07:32 PM
Howard Jones 23 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM
Will Fly 23 Oct 10 - 09:32 AM
Tangledwood 23 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM
stallion 24 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM
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Subject: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Folk Free Form # 1
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:32 AM

I have copied and pasted this from a discussion thread on Amazon. What do people here think?

Former music industry boss wants £1 albums.
Source: http://www.thinq.co.uk/2010/10/15/former-music-industry-boss-wants-1-albums/

A former recording industry boss has finally started making sense now that he's not being paid to toe the company line by Big Music.

Rob Dickins, who once ran Warner music in the UK and is a former chairman of the BPI, has severely restricted the number of recording industry Christmas card lists he is on by telling a Manchester music conference that downloaded albums should cost no more than a quid.

His former colleagues might be spitting their lunchtime schooner of Henri IV Dudognon Heritage, but the rest of the music-buying world will be cheering on the forward-thinking ex-exec.

Dickins has broken out of the archaic mind-set of his former colleagues and reckons that the way forward for music lies on the download model pioneered by Apple's iTunes.

Whereas eight million people brought the biggest-selling long player of last year (we're appalled to discover it was Susan Boyle's talent show-fuelled karaoke nightmare), Dickins reckons offerings from popular artists could clock up upwards of 200 million downloads if the price was right.

He has a point. The Internet it democratising the world and even the relatively poor can get Internet access. Mobile phones are everywhere and MP3 players are so close to being given away in cereal boxes that it doesn't bear thinking about.

There are billions of people who would never even consider spending £10 on a U2 album, but price it at £1 and watch the sales figures go through the roof.

To most in the western world ten pounds is a considered purchase. One pound is split second decision. If you like the band, or even know enough people who reckon you'll like it, you'll buy it.

Selling music at a negligible price to the consumer will also put an end to a great deal of casual piracy. If the choice is between coughing up a quid or getting a letter from some bottom-feeding scumbag of a lawyer threatening to take us to court, we know which route we'll be taking.

Of course the pathetic dinosaurs currently running the music industry into the ground with their outdated models and unrealistic expectations will stamp and bellow and make up astronomical figures which prove that selling music at a fair price makes Baby Jesus cry, but the world is moving on.

Music has escaped from the clutches of the profiteers and charlatans. It's time to put the cash back where it should be... in the pockets of the artists, composers and performers who create the art in the first place.

Resistance is inevitable according to the bleatings of some music industry hangers on, but the truth of the matter is that resistance is futile.

Music has found a new home and a new audience on the Internet. A tech-savvy audience which demands instant gratification will follow the path of least resistance, and the biggest cause of friction holding back music sales is the artificially high cost of downloads.

Selling albums for a pound will be a huge gamble for the recording industry, but it could be the final roll of the dice

Do you think the aptly named Rob Dickens is right? Is this the perfect way to get back to shifting units, re-kickstart the music industry and kill off piracy?


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Tangledwood
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:30 PM

Would it kill off piracy or encourage it?
Now - "Could you make a copy of that album for me?"
    - "No. You like the performer, spend $30 and support them"
Proposed - "could you make a copy of that album for me?"
         - "sure, it's only worth a few cents to the performer, they wouldn't care."


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:38 PM

Bingo, imo, Tangledwood.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Folk Free Form #1
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 07:42 AM

No, it is not a few cents. It is a pound. I'm not sure what that converts to in dollars. With downloads, there is no production cost, no transport costs, no warehouse costs, no shop costs, in fact no costs at all. The full £1 goes to the artist. That sounds fair to me. If it doesnt sound fair to you, what price does sound fair? Surely not $30. $30 is a rip-off price.

I am all for considering the artist, but let's hear it for the consumer.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 07:47 AM

It's the Companies that rip the guts out of it, not the artist. . .

It's a bit like - how many poor oil companies do you know? (Read media for 'oil').

It's about a $1.50 (US)

Great idea.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM

The full £1 goes to the artist.

But who is going to be putting all these downloads on line? Who will pay the cost of the original recording, mixing and marketing of the album? Who pays the cost of the website upon which the album is released? Who pays the tax on each sale?

There is a whole lot more involved in production costs than just sitting a performer in front of the mic and letting them sing or play. I can see some merit in this idea - less materiel being used as there is no disc or packaging, no transport costs and no retail markup, but I think that it is naive to think that any music would get onto the system if the artiste was the only person being paid!


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 08:18 AM

I'm afraid that, if you think Amazon or iTunes (or whoever) isn't going to take a very large cut of that small amount off of the top, you are sadly mistaken. Apple hasn't promoted the hell out of iTunes out of concern for the struggling artist.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 08:45 AM

FFF#1,

I certainly hear your concern, but let me suggest a few things.

1) The songwriter(s) have to be paid.

2) The singer/performer has to be paid.

3) The companies making these $2.00 downloads available will take a cut as stated by Art.

4) While you do mention that the consumer is being ripped off, you also suggeat that the consumer is partly responsibe for this "pretty pass" we seem to be at.

Are you really suggesting that some guy driving an SUV and living in a house he owns needs to save $15 at some singer-songwriter's expense? You'll have top do some serious convincing to get most the folks I know to go along with that. Sounds like more "I want your CD for nothing" crap to me. (No offense meant to you.)


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 09:05 AM

Would an album that's a fifth or tenth of the price will sell five or ten times as much? Probably not- for an independent artist almost certainly not. What isn't mentioned here is Dickin's suggestion that major labels make up the shortfall in income with a share of merchandise and touring receipts from successful acts- essentially cheaper albums would be a way of reducing piracy and increasing market share.

While the cost of manufacturing and distributing CDs don't apply to a digital download, the costs of recording, mixing and mastering still apply, as does the cost of marketing it.

And no-one gets 100% of the price of a download- various services distribute digitally, but will either take 10% or charge an annual service charge. That's for independent artists. Those on major labels will make a tiny fraction of the selling price.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

While the cost of manufacturing and distributing CDs don't apply to a digital download, the costs of recording, mixing and mastering still apply, as does the cost of marketing it

Whilst this is true, the reality is that from a lot of download providers, the cost of a download album is almost as much as the cost of a CD. This is despite the fact that in most cases the sound quality of the download is poorer than the sound quality of the CD.

My label has made a number of download reissues available. We charge around £4.00 for these albums (and they are pretty long albums - all clocking in at over an hour). We have made them available as VBR mp3s which is better quality that the 192 kbps downloads you get from many of the big download companies who if they do downloads at higher quality tend to charge a premium. If we were releasing these download albums as CDs, we would have had to charge at least double what the downloads are going for, because we would have had to pay for manufacture and of course distributors and retailers would each take their cut. We use IThinkMusic for digital distribution, who deduct 8% for MCPS and charge us 5% of the retail price as their cut. As the releases we have put out so far have cost us as a label nothing except the time taken to upload them and do the marketing, most of the 87% of the retail price we recieve we will be passing back to the artists.

We also note that services such as Bandcamp enable artists and small labels to make their releases available as high quality downloads and set the price they consider appropriate.

So, to sum up, I don't necessarily agree that charging £1 for a download album is the way forward, as it gives only a nominal value to the music, but neither do I accept that a download is of equal value to a physical release on CD or vinyl. I would also argue that the current model for releasing albums as downloads using services such as iTunes and Amazon overcharges customers and is weighed heavily in favour of digital distributors and major record labels. The artists see very little of any income from such downloads. I think this system is a hangover from outmoded pop/rock/celebrity models of music marketing and has little to do with the needs of independent, niche artists or their fans.   

Here endeth the sermon.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM

It's only a workable model for a very small section of the music business - the very few big-name artists who can afford to give away music for free in order to generate interest in high-grossing live concerts, with the attendant merchandising. I can't see that working for many folk performers, or for most performers in other genres for that matter.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 01:29 PM

Hi Spleen Cringe, just curious from an 'audiophile-ish' end user point of view..

if you were to consider selling lossless flac compressed downloads
instead of lossy mp3,
would it significantly increase cost of server storage
and thus dowloads price ?


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 02:29 PM

This sounds like a great idea to me.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Crowhugger
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 03:07 PM

Another option: As with spaghetti sauce, clothing, quilts, ready-grown plants, and many other things, those who don't like the price of ready-made music can learn to make their own. Like pro musicians DIY-ers will have to suck up the cost of lessons and instruments and put the months and years into developing their skill to where they can stand to hear themselves. At what point might the current sticker prices not look so steep?


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Young Buchan
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 07:05 PM

'There is a whole lot more involved in production costs than just sitting a performer in front of the mic and letting them sing or play.'

No there isn't.

SIGNED
Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Belle Stewart, Jeannie Robertson, John Strachan, Seamus Ennis, Packie Byrne, Billy Bennington, Charlie Wills, Walter Pardon, Jock Duncan,
[That's enough great performers - Ed.]


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 11:12 PM

Fine - but once you've got them recorded who's going to translate that onto a saleable medium, with the resultant costs involved?

If there's no budget for publicity of some sort who's going to know that the music is out there?

Who's going to pay for the website that they will need to be placed on for download?

The list goes on, if you stop to think.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 03:50 AM

Hi Punkfolkrocker... That's one of the reasons I'm looking into Bandcamp - with their service you upload in a lossless format such as WAV or AIFF and they convert it into FLAC, Ogg Vorbis, AAC etc as well as mp3 as part of the service. The artist still gets to set the price as they see fit...


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 03:52 AM

Sorry - me above


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: stallion
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 05:14 AM

If it wasn't such a serious subject i would be rolling about laughing at the predictable polarised opinion on this thread. Downloads, cd's concerts, all ways of selling the music and they are all taking a hit. Very worrying are the NCEM folk concert series that, for the first time, is losing money. It has little to do with the quality of artists and more to do with the economic climate, people cannot afford it and are tightening their belts. So, if one wants to still sell ones music one has to be competetive, it's the market. I am sure that the majority of people downloading music for free do it with a clear conscience because they fully understand how much a cd costs to produce and they know or feel that they are being ripped off, so they feel it is ok to steal from thieves. Curiously the club nights and sessions here in York are thriving and the concerts suffering, that has to be a cost driven thing and a return to Victorian "Self help" maybe! There is also a clue in the term "Music industry", suggests not artistic expression but a manufactured product for sale from which a profit can be made. At the beginning of the twentieth century the Prince of Wales asked a West Riding factory owner how his factory worked, he replied " Coal and Iron go in one end and Champagne and cigars come out of the other", the music industry is no different, he ommitted to point out that an army of people worked to produce it and recieved a pittance for their labour. Has the Penny dropped yet? See the similarities, what really astonishes me is how the fat cats can get so many people on board to defend their profits when their share is so miniscule. I think how much the downloads cost is irelevant, I think it was pitched at £1 because as a music exec he probably knows what an artist recieves from each cd, I think the suggestion is that downloads offer a real chance for a redistrubution of wealth that doesn't harm the performer and hugely benefits the end user, your fans.






+96


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: brezhnev
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 10:04 AM

The music-for-free genie is out of the bottle and isn't going to go back in ever, whatever price the industry or independent labels/artists set their downloads at. So anyone wanting to make money out of recorded music should make hay while the sun...erm... sets.

Personally I couldn't care less what the music industry does. They'll carry on selling physical CDs for a tenner and digital download albums for £7.99 as long as people keep buying them in sufficient numbers to maintain the profits they've grown accustomed to. And if they can't maintain those profits they'll stop doing it. Who cares?

The same rules apply for 'independent' labels and artists. If Navigator Records, for example, are getting enough people to fork out nine quid for a Bellowhead CD, good luck to them. And if at some stage in the future people stop forking out, well...who cares?

And if an excellent, low-budget, 'community-of-enthusiasts' operation like Folk Police can continue to happily survive selling a 22-track album download for £4.39 and tracks at £0.49, then that's great. If they can't (I would sort of care), they and the artists will presumably look for another way of getting the music out there and getting it noticed, or stop asking for money, or stop doing it.

It's ironic that at the same time that the internet led to 'music for free' it also led to musicians in their tens (more likely hundreds) of thousands uploading their bedroom creations and asking for money for them.

There are over 14,000 'folk' albums already on Bandcamp. They could all be brilliant for all I know, and I wish them all the very best of luck. But make money? If you're Sufjan Stevens, maybe. But for the other 999 out of 1,000, the laws of supply and demand and the 'music-for-free' genie suggest 'probably not'.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:19 AM

I kind of agree with you, Brezhnev. But the sort of issues you raise (and which I tend to find myself thinking about far more than is healthy anyway) also depress the hell out of me. I do sometimes wonder why I'm trying to run a record label at a time of increasing economic misery and a time when the way music is consumed is at best in a state of flux.


...it makes me glad I still have the day job (even if we are facing massive cuts in adult social care)!


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:26 AM

Regardless some of the acrimonious posts, I would suspect that people who want the prices reduced are not musicians who depend on their music for at least a portion of their income. That said, I take the remarks with a grain of salt.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:46 AM

The post that says anyone can just sit and record is true for certain performers. However, along with that assumption--which is erroneous imo--session time runs about $50-60 an hour, and few people get the take they want at first crack. If the singer also plays an instrument, I would suggest that an average take would take about 45 minutes per song, with additional time to reset mics, etc. Round a take to an hour and you can see that the recording cost is maybe within most peoples eventual grasp. But that type of simplistic thought doesn`t address mixing and mastering, both of which need to be done even on straight-forward work. However, not all people are as in love with the same kind of music, and extra instruments require extra time, and extra time is extra money.

I have little sympathy for people who bitch about the price of CDs. No one is forcing you to buy them. No one is asking you to steal them either. Fuckin`grow up. I am old enough to recall when jujubes were four for a penny. Now they are about four cents each. Much as I love jujubes, I think the price is outrageous, compared to the old price. Jujubes have gone way up in price. In the 1960s, records went at about $12 US. Today, CDs go at about $15-20. Shit, man, we ain`t even kept up with jujubes.




I trust you`re well, spleencringe. And I wish you every success with the company.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: stallion
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:12 PM

Oh that long to make a cd, wow.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:14 PM

Well, what has your experience been with recording, and where might one listen to some of your work.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:15 PM

No one is asking you to steal them either. Fuckin`grow up

I'm sorry, 999, but if you choose that style of language, then possibly you need to grow up?

The fact is that a lot of people do steal music online. The original post, which you clearly didn't bother to read properly was making just that point...

Cam down, go back to the top and read it properly.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM

I'm on the side of the small guys.
Having just released a solo CD (Multitracked me, and a couple mates).
500 copies (£800) all paid for from my pension.
Recorded and mastered at home.
Which took time.
No record label.
Why should I let someone else download it for 1 pound?
I discovered my last CD was available as an illegal download, for which of course, I don't get a penny.
It might well be a loss leader for U2 and the like. but for me, it's just downright theft.
And, having a limited income, I couldn't possibly sue anyone.
It's just wrong.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:18 PM

Go lecture someone else, ``Ed``. And may one ask what YOUR music background is, and where might one listen to it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:36 PM

Hi Stallion.
Used to do John Peel sessions at the BBC Maida Vale studios.
Mainly rock bands, but we did do folkies too!
Typical session day.
Arrive 1200 Set up..2 Hours ish?
Record until 1800, As live as possible minimum overdubs, replsce Lead Vocals if necessary.
Hour break.
Mix and Master until 2400.
And that was for four tracks. with a lot of chivvying, and remember the engineers knew the studio like the back of their hands.
I call that bloody quick. Yes, of course it was paid for by the great british public through there liscense fees. But, look at the results. A huge number have appeared commercially since.
Yes, recording takes a long time and is very expensive in a (semi) commercial studio.
My little offering took 6 months on and off. In my attic.
And I worked bloody hard on it.
You could say that apart from electricity what did it cost me?
well £800 is what it cost. I'm not ordering the yacht in Barbados just yet!
Any profits will go towards that "difficult" 2nd release, but part of me says, why should I bother if some freeloading download site is just going to rip me off?
It's all very well for consumers to expect free music. (Are you listening Conrad?)
What about the people who play the music?


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:39 PM

Congratulations to you, Ralphie. How may one purchase the CD you made.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:40 PM

It was hardly a lecture, 999. Just making a point.

Ralphie, totally agree that it's theft and wrong, but you'd struggle to stop it. I'm sure you remember the 'Home Taping Is Killing Music' campaign of the early '80s? Did it make a jot of difference?

Rob Dickins' point seems to have been misunderstood here. I think his question is: Would you prefer 10 people to download your CD (illegally) for nothing, or get £1 off each?

There is no suggestion that CDs must be sold for that price. Sell your CD at a gig or online for whatever you choose.

Ed


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:47 PM

I would think, Ed, that people would keep on ripping off people who record. I could be wrong.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

£1? Great idea, as long as nobody has to make a living from it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:02 PM

Hi 999...!
Wasn't attempting to turn this into a marketing excersise honest!
But, since you asked.
E Mail eloisecd@hotmail.co.uk
And I'll get back to you.
Considering I've done no gigs since it came out, I've covered the cost of making it. And thats because I've done it all from home! The Post Office are fed up with me turning up with Jiffy Bags everyday!
It just seems a bit more trad than a download!
And, it's the first time I've ever made a penny from a record in 30 years!


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM

The Post Office are fed up with me turning up with Jiffy Bags everyday!

I know THAT feeling.

I have emailed you, and thanks.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:08 PM

people would keep on ripping off people who record

Of course they will, and always have. It's not just recording, or even confined to the 'Creative Arts' either. I've had ideas ripped off me in an office environment, with someone else taking the credit.

What to do, though?

I'll admit to copying The Beatles mono reissue CDs off a friend, but as I'd bought them all before on vinyl, and Macca having £700 million, I didn't have any moral qualms.

I'd never do that with someone who was struggling, but I know of plenty who would....


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:13 PM

If I knew what to do, I`d do it. I was at a party where someone put on a CD I`d done. It was a ripped copy. I ran a key across it, voiced my displeasure and left. And no, I don`t know what the answer is, but I`ll be damned if I`ll sell any CD at $2.00.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:30 PM

I think it's all about degree.
If it's Paul MacCartney or Rod Stewart, whoever....
It probably makes no difference to them financially if they donate something as a freebie CD to a paper, or even get ripped off.
I understand that if the Beatles various estates got the money that is owed to them by the many companies PRS, MCPS etc, every year. The companies would have nothing left for the rest of us!!!!
But, people at my end of the food chain have to keep a wary eye on rip off merchants.
Where the divide between the two halves occurs is a very blurry place. And if you include agents (who want their cut), Record companies (who want their cut) Distributors (who want their cut) Shops (who want their cut) and now Amazon, et al (who want their cut).....on and on and on and on and on!

Nah! I'll just do Jiffy bags in the post!
Respect to all. Interesting discussion though.
BUY "ELOISE"
GET IT WHILE IT'S HOT Lol!!!!
How do you deal with that?
My CD has covered its costs. Still have a couple of hundred to sell. But it's all mine! And, it will finance the next project. Self fullfilling. With no real profit. Bob Dylan I'm not!


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: brezhnev
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:31 PM

999 - "I would think...people would keep on ripping off people who record"

Quite right. They would. There are loads of people out there who will never pay for music again in their lives. Musicians will just have to learn to live with it as best they can.

Ed - "Sell your CD at a gig or online for whatever you choose"

Exactly. Some might buy it and others will find a copy for free. But neither will give a monkeys how many hours and how much cash has been put into producing it. Why should they? It's not as though they asked you to make it.

Spleen Cringe - "I do sometimes wonder why I'm trying to run a record label"

I thought you ran it because the music gives you a lot of pleasure and fun and because at least 250 other people will get loads of pleasure and fun when, for example, the Bellamy re-worked album comes out.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM

Thanks for reminding me, Brezhnev! You're absolutely right of course...

999 - I'm doing fine thanks - and cheers for the kind words about the label. Glad your jiffy bags are still flying out (and yours, Ralph!).


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 02:11 PM

It's perfectly true that the cost of producing something has no bearing on the price people are willing to pay for it. However, if they are consistently unwilling to pay a figure which comes close to the cost of production, sooner or later people will stop producing.

It's OK for the megastars for whom, even at £1 a time, several million downloads amount to a tidy sum, and who can treat it as marketing for lucrative tours and merchandising. As for the other musicians for whom this is not an option, they will start to wonder whether it's worth investing in a professional recording, especially as most people nowadays listen to poor-quality mp3s over rubbish earphones. They may even decide it's not worth recording at all - if they do it might as well be a low-quality quick-and-dirty recording for YouTube rather than put time money and effort into a proper album.

If people aren't prepared to pay what the music is worth they may find they lose the chance to acquire any.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 02:21 PM

But neither will give a monkeys how many hours and how much cash has been put into producing it. Why should they? It's not as though they asked you to make it.

Well, hanks for that info, Leonid. Let's me know how to get my next car without it costing a bunch of money. Just steal it. Hell, I never asked them to make the car.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: brezhnev
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 03:20 PM

Howard Jones - "other musicians...may even decide it's not worth recording at all"

Spot on. They may well stop recording. So be it. Or they may decide to do it for the love, rather than the money.

Howard - "If people aren't prepared to pay what the music is worth, they may find they lose the chance to acquire any."

Worth to whom? We, the consumers, decide what it's worth. And the way things are going we are only going to get more and more opportunities to acquire and share the music we love at a price WE decide is good value.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 03:41 PM

We, the consumers, decide what it's worth.

Exactly, brezhnev.

The world doesn't owe you a living, 999.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 04:19 PM

I don`t recall ever saying or thinking it did, Ed. Where IS your head.

There are two issues at stake--neither of which you seem to understand.

1) Stealing music is theft. Period.

2) The worth of any product IS eventually decided upon by the consumer, and they do that by purchasing or not.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 05:53 PM

the way things are going we are only going to get more and more opportunities to acquire and share the music we love at a price WE decide is good value.

How do you figure that? You might get more from the megastars, who can afford to give it away and recoup the costs elsewhere. Where folk music is concerned, most musicians don't expect huge sales or to make huge profits from albums, but they do hope to recover their costs. If they can't even do that, for how much longer do you thing they will be prepared to go on making them? Or if they do continue, why should they spend money on a properly engineered recording rather than doing it themselves, without proper recording equipment and more importantly recording expertise?

The way things are going you'll get less music. What you can get may be cheaper, but there will be less of it and it will be of poorer audio quality.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: brezhnev
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM

Howard - I don't think we're in disagreement. If folk musicians want to recover the costs of their 'properly engineered' recordings and find that they can't, of course they should stop doing them.

It won't leave a hole though. For every one that stops there'll be ten enthusiasts having a go in their bedroom on a cracked copy of Cubase and a borrowed mike and posting it up on the internet. Some of it may be of 'poorer audio quality', but a lot of it won't. We'll hardly notice the difference. It's amazing what people can achieve in their bedroom with a bit of love.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: stallion
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:58 PM

Ok Ralphie and guest 999. The guy that records and indeed sings occasionally with us is Rob Van Sante, a very good mate and probably better known as the sound man for the Battlefield Band. He has a remarkable set of ears and is a superb technician. We go into his studio, very small three is definately a crowd, and record the songs one after another.On the last cd most were one takes. some were two and one was three. In three hours we recorded twenty six songs, six of which had flawed arrangements that we hadn't picked up on, six were ok arrangements but had mistakes in them and fourteen were ok. We had a second session for an hour to clean up the six that had mistakes and, because we had time, recorded two more which I think turned out to be the best tracks. Rob charged us three hours for mixing and producing the master, whether it took him longer i don't know. The cd is a snapshot of what we are doing warts and all and is meant to be sung along with and we are under no illusion that it is a money making venture it isn't what we are about. The ethos is WYHIWYG. A really get pissed off with bands that take six weeks in a studio to produce a couple of songs that on cd sound great and are totally crap live!
Oh you can hear a bit of us on here
Peter


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

Great to hear, Stallion. I agree that CDs should contain ``live single performance in them, because we know that often the studio has done more for the material than the singer did, and ya get to a performance and hear shite. I am on a machine with no sound at present, but I`ll bookmark this thread and listen as soon as possible. Thank you for responding.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:11 PM

Hi Stallion. Well done.
That was always the way (and still is) that we recorded sessions at the Beeb.
As much as possible live with maybe a couple of overdubs. Time permitting.
The number of well known bands who actually prefered their session recordings to the eventual album release. (The Smiths to name but one).
And for us engineers the knowledge that however bad the band were, they'd be gone by midnight was brilliant!
Can you imagine spending 6 months with a band that you don't like, either musically or personally! to do a project!
First week....."Lets nail that kick drum sound!"
Second week....."Right on to the snare!" Aaaaargh!

Mine took a long time, because it could, no record company or gigging pressures, and I was doing the overdubs nearly all myself.
So, I didn't have to rush. Luxury!

I don't think that I'd ever get into bed with a record company again, quite honestly. If I was doing a band project then yes, I would use a proper studio, that I trusted, but I'd still go down the "As live as possible" route.
But as has been said many times here, my sales expectations are not in the same league as others, and I don't see why I should just give my recordings away.
Cheers Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:32 PM

``I don't think that I'd ever get into bed with a record company again, quite honestly. If I was doing a band project then yes, I would use a proper studio, that I trusted, but I'd still go down the "As live as possible" route.``

Man, can I hear that. Wish I could have said it half as well.

Stallion nailed it imo when he said he`d heard too much music wherein the recording was really good and the same individual or group live was less than expected. I understand that today there`s some sort of sound machine that can take a singer`s messed up note(s) and get them into key. In the olympics, that`s called use of steroids.

While I do understand the position of people who wish to give their music away gratis, I also understand the indies who will never get rich, but might break even. I guess it depends on what you can afford, whether producer or consumer.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:42 PM

Yes...indeed. I wish I had shares in Antares!
The (probably, but I so want it to be true!) story of the recording of I think Gloria Gaynors "Do you believe in Love?" with the Dalek chorus came about by the No2 tech playing around one evening after the session, and actually put his mucking about on the tape!
He really feared for his job next day when the management heard it...Luckily they loved it and used it!
You're never out of tune with an Antares!


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:32 PM

Oops ... I think you actually mean Cher's "Do you believe in Love?" don't you Ralphie?

Re the matter of putting a naff singer's voice into tune, there is of course the notorious video of Katie Price (AKA Jordan) and Peter Andre singing some little ditty where she is hideously out of tune in one video ... but another video exists on the net where the voices are both miraculously in tune (both to be found on Youtube).


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM

Some of it may be of 'poorer audio quality', but a lot of it won't. We'll hardly notice the difference. It's amazing what people can achieve in their bedroom with a bit of love.

I think the ratios would be the other way around - most would be poorer quality. It's true that a home recording equipment is much closer to a pro studio than it used to be, and for our music it may well be sufficient. However, it takes more than a bit of love, it takes expertise with the recording equipment and software. Some musicians may have that expertise, most don't.

I've recorded in a "proper" studio. I've recorded in a good "home studio" with good mics and equipment. I've recorded with a home digital 8-track using our stage equipment. The reason the first two sound significantly better than the last is due more to the expertise of the sound engineers than the equipment.

Will the audience notice the difference? Perhaps not. I find it ironic that as recording technology becomes better and cheaper, the technology for listening has become progressively worse. Many people nowadays seem content to listen to music in a compressed format which loses audio quality, through low-quality earphones or speakers. If that's what they want, perhaps musicians are wasting their time and money trying to produce something better. Personally, I don't regard that as progress.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 09:32 AM

Interesting discussion, and full of complexities.

There's never been a time like the present last few years for musicians doing their own thing, making it available in their own way, and charging what they want for it - all to standards that would have been impossible years ago without expensive equipment and experienced sound engineers. Consider...

1. Recording. Good quality mic and multi-track digital recorder - all sorts of possibilities... Zoom H2... Zoom H4... Condenser mic into a PC with sound card...

2. Distribution. Burn CDs from PC and take to gigs and/or sell from website... Downloadable mp3 files on MySpace or personal website...

3. Charging and payment. Up to the artist... Cheque... PayPal... all profits to the artist...

And so on and so on. Now, you could argue that there's probably more variance in quality when people do their own thing without the benefit of hi-spec equipment and experienced sound engineers. Be honest though - how many people can really detect a huge difference between full quality sound and a compresses sound these days? I'm not making a case for crap sound - merely saying that a comparative modern indifference to absolute quality is now a fact of life. I can also recall that what were often crappy recordings of early rock'n roll in the 1950s are now regarded as the real thing - no accounting for different tastes, is there? :-)

I happen to have a copy of Ralphie's "Elouise" CD - and consider it to be both excellent in sound quality and musicianship. Long live his attic! I also consider the price I paid for it to be well worth the outlay. I also have an attic - well, the spare bedroom - where, with the aid of a cauldron, smoke and oakum machines and a witch's tit, I occasionally create sounds. Now, whether you consider the following (mp3) sound file to be any great shakes musically or technically is up to you, but I could not have made this double-tracked recording (tenor & 6-string guitars) of The New Century Hornpipe - say 15 years ago? - without going into a recording studio and paying out real money.

So, the point of this rather rambling post is that all the modes of music production have been shaken up, and musicians have to adapt as best they can to go with the shaking.

I don't charge £1 or anything else to download my music, as it happens. I give my music away on CD - to friends, for fun. But that's just my schtick...


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: Tangledwood
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM

"how many people can really detect a huge difference between full quality sound and a compresses sound these days? "

Or even if they can it becomes irrelevant in many listening environments, for example playing CDs in the car or listening to mp3 players on public transport.


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Subject: RE: Tech: All downloads to cost £1
From: stallion
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM

This takes me back to the days of "Practical Wireless" and "Electronics Today", when i was at school I used to build transistor radio's for friends out of bits I scrounged, the plans for a two transistor radio I got from "Practical Wireless", I progressed to pre-amps and then I built a 30 watt valve amp. I gave up after that cos I started work and ended up doing it all day long! I remember reading the mags and how much time and effort the anaraks spent trying to replicate the live performance, I was happy to get a bit of volume for the guitar and spent a lot of time and effort trying to distort it! The poor buggers will be turning in their graves at what has happened to their legacy and their beloved Hi-Fi!


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