How much would you pay for a CD?

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,mattkeen
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 04:04 PM

Are you saying they cant rip you off using the CD they bought from you then Ralphie?

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:47 AM

In terms of cottage-industry sales, the most significant web-based development is in my opinion PayPal.

More so than myspace or facebook or CDbaby.

I think all independant musicians should be as vocal as possible in getting the existence (and URL) of their paypal account across to their audience.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:54 PM

And there Anahata you've got my thoughts in focus.
I much prefer buying from the artist either at a gig, or from their owm website,as often as I can.
It seems to me that downloading tracks is a little soulless to me, and as people have said, how do you know if people aren't ripping you off?
If you have a decent soundcard with a Line Out Jack, or even a Headphone socket. You can record whole swathes of music on an Edirol or Zoom, and then transfer to your iPod...
Cottage Industry? Attic Industry in my case!!

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: treewind
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:54 PM

Thanks - we weren't in there much this year!

I am interested in how cottage industries (like folk performers etc) might better use the net.
It's certainly a cottage industry!

Sites like MySpace and Youtube help a bit - at least you get loads of download bandwidth for free. I see it as a promotional tool, not as a main sales medium.

In the end it doesn't make a huge difference. Live gigs is where the sales happen, and live music is what folk music is all about. It would be very sad if all we did was make downloads for the web.

Anahata

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: mattkeen
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:11 AM

@ Anahata

Didnt get a chance to talk to you but I was absolutely entranced by your lovely playing at a session at the Radway this year

Thanks very much

Mary to

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: mattkeen
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:09 AM

Hi Anahata

Yeah - i doubt rishes to - even though sales are much more likely for somebody with a strong reputation and "track" record like you


Anyway - I have a friend who has set this up for several sites including my own and it works -

I am just putting it forward as another possibility - driving potential buyers to the site is another issue altogether


As it happens I have had previous CD's ditributed physically and digitally through CD Baby but results were so patchy that for me its not worth bothering with
But I am interested in how cottage industries (like folk performers etc)might better use the net. I thought there might be something in that idea of allowing downloads to any physical CD buyer - you could even upload WAV files to somewhere like www.wetransfer.com a free file transfer service

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: treewind
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:04 AM

Putting downloads on your website for paying is not trivial though.
It's easy to provide a file for download, but it's much harder for a site to know who's paid and who hasn't, reliably and without inconvenience for the user or possibility of abuse.

The cheaper web hosting packages don't even let you do server side scripting to start with...

I don't know. Maybe I'll try creating a page with a few songs and tunes at £1.00 a track and see what happens.
I'll let you know if I get rich on it... (don't hold your breath)

Anahata

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: mattkeen
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:41 AM

There are a couple of sites that when you order a physical CD they send you a link so that you can download the tracks straight away and dont have to wait to listen.


I agree that the artists intention when producing a physical CD is often to present the whole package as one - its the way I like to purchase music myself. I am however suggesting that its worth considering alternatives and whether adding downloads as an option for physical CD buyers is worth thinking about.

Money wise you dont have to use CDBaby - and certainly you dont have to use them or similar EXCLUSIVLY. The main reason for using digital distributors like CDBay is that they get into markets we cant (iTunes, Tower Records etc.) May not be relevant to a folk artist - probably isnt. But my main point is that you get 100% of the money (almost!) if you put the downloads on your own website and have a Paypal shop for people to pay.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:19 PM

This might work better

My Myspace site

Chas

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:15 PM

The last CDR I made was a concert that "Halmstråket" had at Dalsland Centre 18th July. Mostly for the band to hear how we sounded.

Came out OK.

Take up was on Mini Disc. Transferred and edited via WAV then converted to MP3.

19 tacks.

Hopefully, when we get our MYspace site up and running there will be a few tracks on that.

I've my own things on my own a href="http://www.myspace.com/clarkchas">Myspace site

that can be downloaded.

Chas

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:54 AM

I have to agree with Ralphie. When I brought out a CD with concertina player Kitty Hayes some years ago I received several angry (yes really) e-mails from people who thought it appropriate to give out to me because I hadn't made the tracks available as downloads. Much more money could be made was the suggestion. Now, that wasn't the objective of the whole operation so that didn't convince me but I looked into it for good measure. A friend had managed to get a CD on iTunes and said it was an unbelievable hassle. I looked at the CDbaby terms and didn't think it was worth the effort.

CD was what we set out to do, the full booklet and all, and that's what we did. An initial run of 1500 and a small extra run of seventy five or so (the printer had printed a surplus of covers/booklets so we used that up, with the master made it was a cheap run). And that was it, it has run it's course.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: mattkeen
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:25 AM

@ Ralphie

"As for downloads, No thanks. Too many people taking their cut. You'd have to have a lot of people downloading a track to make more than a few pence. No point in that."

It was that bit I was trying to get at Ralphie


Agree very interesting thread and great to have the thoughts of people who are actually dling it and some even doing it for a living

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:56 AM

Desi C
Each to their own. Nobody is forcing anybody else to part with hard earned dosh!
As has been said. The market is the market. I've got lucky insofar as my disc was recorded at home, my girlfriend did the artwork, so my only real costs was the pressing and printing (proper glass master btw)
On the website are some examples plus in the future there will be some WIP tracks for fun.
My beef against downloads boring Old Fart that I am is this.
A few years ago with Patterson Jordan Dipper, we produced Flat Earth, (sadly now deleted)
I spent hours planning a running order for the CD that had a beginning, a middle, and an end.
The intention being that it flowed, and took the listener on a journey (Bleedin Hippy!....Tales from Topographic Folkies!)
That's just the way I am, too many years at the Beeb, trying to be artistic I suppose.
The thought of it being sliced up into individual tracks on an i-Player in shuffle mode, makes my skin crawl. But Hey, that's just me.
But, I digress. Back to pricing structures.
I feel that what I charge for my new CD (as a little independent artist) seems to fit with what others are charging.
As I've said, it's still selling, slowly admittedly, but well enough.
That'll do me for the moment. When I get the hit single well....That's another matter. I'll really start ripping you.
bastards off!! LOL!
Cheery thoughts to all, and an interesting thread thanks.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: treewind
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:54 AM

Sorry, anon GUEST 4 posts up was me. Using a different browser and forgot to check.
Anahata

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:09 AM

Yes Ralphie your maths is as good as mine is bad. But I meant a MAX price for any CD of £10 even if over 11 tracks, which let's face it very few are nowadays. You would be giving extra value for money which I hope would mean extra sales for you so you would hopefully only gain by it. Personally, and call me a skinflint, I wait till albums age enough to appear in the bargain bins or crpp up in club raffles and my tastes are very ancient anyway ;)

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:52 AM

Oh and prefer cardboard to jewel cases....jewel cases hate me they break as soon as I touch them.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM

This may sound a bit odd...but I'm far more willing to buy a CD for the 'higher' price of £10-15 if I buy in person if the artist is getting more of a share of the profits.

Plus I like to hear a 'sample' of what on the album before buying. Made the mistake once of buying an album without hearing any of it first coz it had been recommended to me and well...it got played once and then shoved in the back of a cupboard (that was that months frivolity budget wasted).

I get put off with the price of postage on sites like amazon, when a reasonably price cd suddenly goes out of my budget....which is when I start to ponder whether to download it and save the postage. lol!

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:47 AM

I do make CDRs occasionally though, of stuff that's never going to sell in hundreds like the Pig Dyke Molly music. And promo sometimes, but that isn't usually a full jewel cased package.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:30 AM

QUOTE < CDRs are OK to make in small quantities, but I find a batch of 10 is the best part of an evening's work - not just burning CD's but printing on the CD, tray card and 4-page inserts (even if only the 2 outside faces are printed) and cutting, folding and assembling. If I value my time, they aren't cheap.

Anahata > UNUOTE

Still worth doing for promotional eventualities, because the real thing would be thrown away anyway. All they need is a taste.

I do feel though, that you and Mary are already a few worthy rungs higher up the ladder than I and many others.

Chas

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: treewind
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:19 AM

Something that's not been made clear, though Ralphie has hinted at it, is that the production cost of a pressed CD has far more to do with the numbers produced than anything else.

It's true that the cost of pressing another 500 CDs of an album that's already been recorded, designed and mastered is only about £300, and it's even cheaper if you get several thousand done at once. That's one reason why superstars who've already sold a hundred thousand can give them away free with the newspapers.

It's also the reason why the music industry would rather spend million s on heavily promoting their chosen few than giving hundred of prefectly good bands and singers a decent break, each of which wouldn't be nearly so profitable.

But many folk acts never get beyond the first 500 CDs, and the cost of producing the first 500 is more like £2500 if you pay for studio time and artwork. So after a lot of hard work and cash flow deficit you don't even break even until you've sold at least 250 at £10 each.

CDRs are OK to make in small quantities, but I find a batch of 10 is the best part of an evening's work - not just burning CD's but printing on the CD, tray card and 4-page inserts (even if only the 2 outside faces are printed) and cutting, folding and assembling. If I value my time, they aren't cheap.

Anahata

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:43 AM

there's LOADS of old stuff available to download. iTunes and emusic both have a sizeable chunk of the Folkways and Topic catalogues for starters.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:36 AM

"It is interesting about under 25s getting their music online. I don't want to sound like a grumpy old woman but I can't imagine that there is much to download as far as new talent goes. Sorry if I am mistaken. "

As a (just) under 25year old I find pleanty of 'new' music I like to download, which suits my tastes.

Would be nice if some more 'old' stuff was available too.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:33 AM

2 GBP if I have to (rarely)
0.2 GBP in Emmaus (charity shops with worldwide exposure) infrequently.

The only CD's I have bought new were for wedding video music.
All others are review copies or donations.

I prefer to make music or the happenstance of talk radio with occasional music.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:23 AM

At events such as the recent Habourside Festival in Bristol the bands preforming were very good each one a little bit different than the last and it takes an event like this to show what talent there is around, supporting them by buying the CD is a great thing to do especially if the band is local and if a great time was had something to remember it by. I agree that they should keep the cost of the CD low to make up for the expensive beer and cider in the Festival beer tents though!

It is interesting about under 25s getting their music online. I don't want to sound like a grumpy old woman but I can't imagine that there is much to download as far as new talent goes. Sorry if I am mistaken.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:50 AM

In an ideal world £3.50...but I understand there are costs involved so
£6-10 for an album depending on number of tracks.
My problem is I'm running out of room to store CD's I buy and I only put them on my I-pod and file them away anyway. So its more practical sometimes to just download rather than have a physical CD. If I go to a gig and like the artist I'm more likely to buy the CD especially if I can get it signed or the little booklet in it is of interest.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:41 AM

yep, the folk scene seems to be pretty unique in still buying CDs. I don't buy many CDs anymore myself - I have an emusic subscription and a whopping credit card bill to pay off, and I'm a bit sick of owning so much CLUTTER and STUFF.

But I like the fact that folkies will probably still be buying physical products at gigs for a good 20 years or so. (I reckon.)

If you're a working musician and you happen to make folk music, then I say charge as much as you can. That's what everybody else does, with every other product under the sun.

At a gig though, I think it's probably shooting yourself in the foot to charge over a tenner. People need to drink and be merry, after all.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: mattkeen
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 04:47 AM

Yes it is

Its proven over and over that folk music is most succesfully sold at gigs in a CD format.

It will change no doubt as the download generation get older but now its CD and generally at gigs

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,lefthanded guitar
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:47 PM

I would pay 10 -15 for a CD, but when I talk to anyone under the age of 25, they don't buy CD's anymore. They get all their music online. So friends, is it worht our while to make a CD???

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:55 PM

I buy loads of CD's of other people. Source of my song bag.

All part of the expense of making a CD.

Chas

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 10:44 AM

Speaking as one of the hundreds of amateurs, although I wouldn't claim to be "just as good", I would unhesitatingly answer that I would want to support the pros. Most of what I've learned about playing, and most of my repertoire, has come directly or indirectly from professional musicians, and very often via their albums.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Daver
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 10:19 AM

A retired man is wakened one morning by some local boys banging on garbage cans. After three mornings of this he decides to do something about it, so he goes out to the boys and tells them he really appreciates their music and says he'll pay them $1 a day to drum for him.

After a few days of this he tells them he's having financial problems and can't afford $1 a day, but he'll pay them $.25 instead. The boys respond that there's no way they'll play for only $.25 and they never disturb him again.

Most musicians play because they love to play, and money distorts things. You have to support yourself financially, but for every professional musician who depends on selling CDs to eat, there a hundreds of amateurs with day jobs who are just as good but continue to play for enjoyment. What do we want to support?

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:40 AM

some acts... price their CDs at gigs for as high as they can get away with

Doesn't that apply to every trader in any product, whether its CDs or baked beans? Most vendors will charge what they think the market can bear. If they get it wrong, and the buyer can get it cheaper elsewhere, then they won't make many sales.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Uncle Rumpo
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:17 AM

some acts, I will mention Lindisfarne*, price their CDs at gigs
for as high as they can get away with
from an older middle class audience.

[*all CD's layed out on a table at the bottom of the stairs to the concert hall
at a standardised high price well over a tenner,
including a budget lable compilation
on sale in the local shops for about £2.99]

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: olddude
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:05 AM

If it was a new one from Bruce Murdoch I would give a weeks pay ..
:-)   Yea they run usually 15-20 bucks here in the states. Most folk CD's are around 10 with postage

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 08:58 AM

So why is an hour of CD recorded music, often with new tracks you might not like, costing twice as much as the live gig?

Er.. perhaps you might listen to it more than twice. According to your argument, CDs are grossly under-priced, because you're likely to listen to them dozens, if not hundreds, of times. Compared to the cost of a live gig, they offer great value of money. Of course, listening to live and recorded music offers different experiences, but one is not necessarily inferior to the other.

I also don't understand your argument about not liking some tracks. When you go to see an artist perform live you have no idea what they're going to perform, so you have no assurance that they'll be songs you enjoy. At least with an album you can look at the track list before buying it. Besides, if an album is a new release it's probable that the artist will perform much of it during live gigs.

Except for a very few acts at the top of the tree, volume sales are difficult to achieve in the folk world. I also get the impression that folk audiences are quite hard to impress, and that it takes more than a cheap CD to win fans.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM

Thinkng about this again, someone below said '£12 for an hour's music aint bad' Well, is it really? I go to see various folk gigs with guest artists, average ticket price I reckon is about £6. for that you usually get a good hour at least or more and a dozen or more songs/tunes, most if you've bought a ticket you'll want to hear, plus it's 'live' and you'll usually see and hear support acts. All for £6 ish. And a lot of these artistes will have albums for sale at the £12 level. So why is an hour of CD recorded music, often with new tracks you might not like, costing twice as much as the live gig?

Also I think too many big name artistes are too content to flog their wares at over inflated prices, rather than go for volume sales at half the price and probably gain many new fans. I mean on the Pop and Rock scene acts are getting Gold discs for a volume of sales that wouldn't have got them in the top 50 in the 60's

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 04:30 AM

Ralphie - why do you say that downloads are not worth?
Who takes another cut?

You can just set it up with a Paypal account from your own site - you get all the money. If you want some help doing this the guy who did our Collective site is very very reasonable - let me know if yuo want a conatct

Or CDBaby terms are good

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:40 AM

Tootler.
Thats about right!
Mine goes for £12 (plus £1 for the Jiffy bag and postage 96p! so actually the Jiffy bag is free ans re-useable!)
At a gig a Tenner seems fair. Easier to deal with, and the customer has made the effort to come and to pay to get in.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Curtis
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:32 PM

For the guy who asked what economy of scale is, it is basically the greater quantity produced, the lower the per unit cost of production. Basic economics.

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: sharyn
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:08 PM

I regularly pay U.S. $15 for them. I don't download stuff because I want the artwork, lyrics, notes, etc., although I have been tempted because I have a lot of one-hit wonder CDs in my collection.

I made a CD in 2009. It cost me over $9000 U.S. to make it because I made a full-color booklet for it with all of the lyrics to everything, plus a lot of original artwork. I made it the way I wanted to and it is a little jewel. If I had paid for online distribution, it would have cost even more since the royalties for downloading cover songs have to be renewed every year.

I have lots of them to sell and there are sixty days until Christmas and far less before Chanukah...

Sharyn

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:26 PM

I think £10 - £15 for a well produced CD is reasonable. £10 at a gig is good because it makes things simple.

Downloaded tracks should go for substantially less. My reasoning has nothing to do about the argument over costs but because you are buying an inferior product. Converting to mp3 degrades the original, so why should you pay as much as for the CD?

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: Fidjit
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:56 AM

And not to forget the cost of any tracks that are copyrighted. Just filling out the paper work is horrendous.

My CD, "More Scratches", has 15 tracks on it. So that's about right for a Tenner.

I have several other CD's that are Computer made.

Chas Clark, "Just Scratching The Surface"

The Fidjits, "Live at Galleri Texas".
The Fidjits, "Singing in the Spring".
The Fidjits, "Christmas Concert".
For which I charge just FIVE QUID each for. Which is about what they cost to make. I just run them off when I run out of the ones I have,

Chas

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:28 AM

Well Desi C
As my CD is 17 tracks that makes 11 quid!
So, £12 ain't too bad for over an hour of music! Lol!

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:27 AM

The better half's (Wendy Arrowsmith's) CDs are priced (at gigs) at £10 for either one of the 2 released to date.... or both for £15. We can do this as both are very much into the profit zone now.

Amazing how much difference the "bargain" price makes to sales.... it seems to be a no brainer for people to buy the 2..... and much batter that people are listening to them rather than them gathering dust in the garage.

She has just started recording the 3rd. This will be priced at £10 again and we'll probably keep the "any 2 for £15" and probably add a 3 for £20 price.

Paul

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:11 AM

Well, given you like the artist and want it, I would suggest a price based on the number of tracks. Let's face it these days top artists take years (why!) to come up with one album with a paltry few tracks and charge the mandatory £12 or so. So why not £5 for a minimum 5 tracks and 50P for every track after that and a Max £7.50 for a new CD with 10 or nore tracks. And a Max £5 for 'best of' albums which more often than not are hardly worth that, after all if you already had bought a book would you expect to pay full price for a second copy?

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:08 AM

Can't even type!
That should have been "Alexander Prince" and "carbon granule microphone"
Doh!

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:08 AM

If i was a regularly gigging solo performer
I'd consider a 2 tiered sales approach for promotion at gigs..

1. factory pressed & printed CD, [or best quality CDr] at no more than £7 - £10
for anyone in the audience 'impressed' enough to risk purchasing...

2. no frills CDr sampler EP in a simple paper/plastic sleeve
for about 3 or 4 quid [the price of a pint ???],
which includes a reasonable 'discount voucher' redeemable against future purchase
of any proper full CD Album.


might at least cover costs...

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Talphie
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:02 AM

Thanks maeve!
How come some people can do that and I can't?
You're asking how come I got a website at all....Confession time. My girlfriend runs it!
Computer Numpty me.
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:00 AM

andrewe.
The Steeleye Span with the deliberate jump was their accapella version of Rave On. Which they did for a laugh. Saw them doing it live too!
Added crackles? haven't heard Mr Fly's track, but the last track on ELOISE (thats enough plugs ed!) Hopscotch, is a recreation of an Alexander Price tune recorded originally on 78 in 1910 ish. Concertina and Piano.
Using the looped surface noise from the original 78, I recorded the tina and piano accompaniment on a csrbon granule microphone!
I also remember there was a blues song (Stones in my Pathway) on the Young Tradion LP "Galleries" performed by Peter Bellamy using the same technique. i rememeber that he was really thrilled when people got upset about it! No sense of irony some people!

Subject: RE: How much would you pay for a CD?
From: maeve
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 06:51 AM

Guest Ralphie's link: http://www.the-attic-tapes.co.uk/