Folklore: The English Apple

Subject: BS: The English Apple
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:09 PM

Yesterday I went for a walk through some beautiful orchards close to my home (permission was not required,the owners are friends of mine). Autumn is such a beautiful time of year and it's apple season.

English apples have a rich history extending back through many centuries. Indeed, it was the Romans who first introduced varieties with sweeter and greater taste. The improvements continued in monasteries following the Norman Conquest while further advances occurred after Henry VIII instructed his fruiterer Richard Harris to identify and introduce new varieties from the continent, which were planted in his orchard in Kent.

a local grower informed me that there are over 2,300 varieties of dessert and cooking apples and over 100 cider apples. My favourite apple has to be the Egremont Russet.

The humble English apple also features in a few folk songs.

A beautiful song by Debbie McClatchy has been in my head all day, it's called "Apples in Winter"


His love for me then
Like apples in winter
So sweet to my lips
Yet hard to find

We walked down the beach
Towards the lights of the city
Leaving the rest so far behind
We stopped at the cove
We had once found together
It was ours, for ourselves,
With none to see

And his love for me then
Like apples in winter
So sweet to my lips
Yet hard to find

The mists of the night
They covered the coastline
The sound of the surf pounding below
And out in the dark
The big lights of the city
Giving the night a reddish glow
And I held him then
And I know in that moment
That this was the way it all should be

For his love for me then
Like apples in winter
So sweet to my lips
Yet hard to find

His love for me now
Like peaches in autumn
Full, soft and warm
And heavy sweet
I lay on the beach
And I bathe in the sunlight
My mind at ease, my comfort complete
And I now watch that man
Who once was that boy
And I know I have done the right thing

For his love for me then
Like apples in winter
So sweet to my lips
Yet hard to find
To my lips.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:14 PM

This belongs above the line... Not a BS subject because it has a song in it (add more - a list of songs about apples and cider) and the history of apple growing in England. Add in the folk lore and it will be a right fine thread.

---

The mere inclusion of a song doth not a music thread make. I'll watch and see what direction the thread takes - "folklore" might be a better category. There's a thread on the song here (click). For "borderline" cases, we leave the thread where the thread originator put it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:39 PM

But what is .this Makes a pink juice that is wonderful and sweet. Is UK (Norfolk).

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:04 PM

Not English but my guess is the apple collection/ seedbank of The Irish seedsavers is of interest on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:17 PM

Government cuts have greatly imperilled the apple gene banks.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:46 AM

EU agriculture policies destroyed whole orchards of British Isles "native" varieties, I am told.

So should we start a thread of English songs and stories about apples and cider or start posting here? Come back and direct us Mr. Black.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:57 AM

This is a song i wrote which Thatchers cider put on their website. Called Katy Rose. Nice story with that song as well.

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id45.html

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:55 AM

Excellent idea VT. I would be most grateful if you would consider creating such a thread.

Best wishes and enjoy your week.

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: melodeonboy
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:55 AM

Chomp! I went to two apple festivals at the weekend - chomp! Crunch, suck; one at East Malling Research Station - chomp! - and the other at Brogdale - chomp!. And I've been scoffin' - chomp! - English apples for the last few days (not that I don't eat a lot of them anyway! - chomp!)

Has anyone tried the Rubens?- crunch!, burp! What a fantastic taste: a lively, tangy apple with plenty of bottom and a satisfying after taste . I also found some fantastic cookers - crunch! Howgate Wonders! They're absolutely enormous apples - crunch! - green and red in colour! I was told - chomp! - you can eat them if you keep them long enough.

I still say - chomp! - you can't beat a Russet for eating and a Bramley for cooking.

Now, where did I put those Tydeman Michaelmas Reds? Chomp!

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 04:26 AM

One of my favourite apples is the Worcester apple it has a very slight sharp cidery taste and the flesh seems to have a blush to it. It is an undervalued little apple and is great to include in a child's tuck or lunch box. The other favourite of mine is the Russet it has a flavour all of it's own, as soon as those come into the shops I can tell that Christmas is on it's way and of course the Cox's Orange Pippin. The pips in an Orange Pippin should rattle when give the apple a shake. Honestly.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:02 AM

"I still say - chomp! - you can't beat a Russet for eating and a Bramley for cooking."


I'd agree about the Bramley (although James Griev is excellent and quite a bit earlier). As for eating, I love Russets but I'm currently chompping on a D'Arcey Spice which is very nice, and for keeping I love Kidd's Orange Red. I grow all of these (and more) in a quite small orchard that I planted 8 years ago and is incredibly productive. The secret to preserving old varieties of apples is to plant some yourself (community orchards anyone?).

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:12 AM

I recently moved into a house which has a big garden with several very productive apple trees.

I've filled the freezer up with apples.

Has anyone got a juicer and made apple drink? Which one would you recommend? Anybody got any recipes for an apple drink - preferably non alcoholic.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:29 AM

I have 3 apple trees in my garden, an Egremont Russet, a Worcester, and a Howgate Wonder. How nice to see my choice of varieties confirmed by others.
Apple Song
Lots of varieties mentioned in this song, that I have never heard of, I guess from the pronunciation of Gala, that it's a transatlantic song.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:57 AM

In my post about the Irish seedsavers I forgot to mention a project done in support of the organisation. Traditional musician Tommy Hayes, one of the directors of the ISS,   put together a cycle of traditional music and song around the theme of 'The Apple'. This cycle was performed in Glór in Ennis two years ago by a group of top class musicians and singers and is now available as a DVD from the ISS.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Arnie
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 07:18 AM

I recall Tundra sang a song about varieties of Kentish apples. At the mention of French Golden Delicious, the audience were encouraged to boo! Can't remember much about the song now although I think that the words 'Oh Good Apple' appeared in the chorus.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 07:59 AM

The excellent organisation, Common Ground, has been organising Apple Days for some time. They have also published an Apple Source Book, which I can recommend

Common Ground

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 10:27 AM

Do not seem to do too well with planting our own fruit trees here although that old tree who's fruit I linked to just thrives and crops heavily in the bit of field we rent. We do have a young Bramley that looks healthy and a much newer breed - scruptios that are looking OK.


The next tree here is not to apple. Got chatting to a really nice chap into fruit trees -orangepippin.com -   where I originally emailed wanting to to identify the old apple... things (or I) drift and I mention a disappointment here is a planted by us but in name old gage tree - it only cropped well once and then all the fruit split...We are going to give oullins gage a whirl as a result.

Subject: Lyr Add: Juice-alem
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:36 AM

I wrote this for the Shakespeare Mummers to sing at the end of the Apple Play which we perform at Mary Arden's House near Stratford upon Avon in October of most years. Most of the words are William Blake's, but the rest are mine.

JUICE-ALEM
From the Apple Day Mummers Play 1997

And did those teeth in ancient times crunch upon England's apples green?
And was the Bramley apple pie on England's dining tables seen?
And did the cider pure and strong pour forth in pints, and quarts and gills?
And did the apple bring good health to folks in dark satanic mills?

Bring me my Cox of burnished gold; bring me my Worcester, firm and sweet.
Bring me my Pippins, new or old; bring me some English fruit to eat.
I shall not eat that tasteless pomme, nor shall a French fruit soil my hand,
Till English apples rule again in England's green and pleasant land.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:21 PM

Along the A12 (both directions) from Chelmsford to Ipswich a colleague has reported loads of apple and peach trees in full fruit. Evidently grown from cast away fruit over the years. Anyone else report seeing these wild trees on their highways and byways?

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:59 PM

Bud and blossom, bud and blossom, bud and bloom and bear.
So we may have plenty of cider all next year
Apples, and in capfuls and in bushel bags and all,
and the cider running out,of every gutter hole.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

Oh and BTW. in spite of the thread title, my apples are Scottish, in location if not in origin anyway :)

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:17 PM

I believe the Brogdale http://www.brogdale.org/ collection of apple genotypes has already been much reduced by funding cuts and is under further threat as a result of con-dem insanity.

Melodeonboy even your capitalisation on the public purse (as last discussed in the back garden of the Good Intent) won't enable you to enjoy apples that have become extinct thanks to the evils of capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:19 PM

pples, cherries, hops and women - Folk songs from Kent volume 2

I have started a list of all the apple songs, tunes, snippets of ryhme relating to apples on mudcat and beginning of google search.

If I can keep myself focussed on it. May do a table,

Title, author/writer, hyperlink to poem, song etc.

85 found so far

A Little More Cider
All Around The Green Apple Tree
Allen Apple (song about customs associated with peeling and throwing the peel over your shoulder)
Apple Blossom (The White Stripes)
Apple Blossoms
Apple Cider Reconstitution (Rod Stewart)
Apple Day Song
Apple Jack 
Apple Maggot Quarantine Round
Apple Of My Eye
Apple Of My Eye
Apple on a Tree
Apple Picker's Reel
Apple Praities
Apple Pressing
Apple Song- Chanson Du Cidre
Apple Sugar Cider (Facing New York)
Apple Tree Wassail
Apples and Honey (The Macaroons)
Apples in Winter
Apples On The Lilac Tree
Apples and Orange (Pink Floyd)
Applesauce
Appleseed John (New Christy Minstrals)
Bert's Apple Crumble (The Quick)
Burst Ye Apple Buds
Cardboard Apples
Cherry Pink And Apple Blossom White
Cider (Chaos UK)
Cider For Me
Cider I Up Landlord
Cider Man (Dirty Bird)
Cider Woman (Man's Ruin)
Cindy
Comfort Me With Apples
Cottage Garden Trees
Craobh Nan Ubhal (Tree Of Apples)
Cy's been drinking cider
Dead Dog Cider
Do you Love an Apple
Don't Sit Under The Apple Tree With Any Else But Me
Down By The Blooming Apple Tree
Drink Cider From a Lemon (Feeder)
Drink Up Thy Cider
Golden Apples of the Sun
Good Apple, She's My Heart's Delight (Bob Kenward)
Hard Cider Song
Hoodening Song
I Am A Cider Drinker
I Love An Apple I Love A Pear
Ida Sweet As Apple Cider
Ida, Sweet As Apple Cider
I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time
In The Shade Of The Old Apple Tree
IN The Shade Of The Old Apple Tree
In The Shade Of The Old Apple Tree 
Jesus Christ The Apple Tree
June Apple
Linden Lea 
Little Green Apples
Lyda Saffer's Apple Pie
Men From the Valley of the Apple Pie
Neath The Crust Of The Old Apple Pie
Old Apple Tree
Old Apple Tree In The Orchard
Red Apple Falls (Smog)
Red Apple Juice
Red Apple Juice
Ripest Apples / Rattle On The Stovepipe
Shade Of The Old Apple Tree
Shoo Fly Pie And Apple Pan Dowdy
Sipping Cider Through A Straw
Solon Shingle And His Great Apple-Sass Case
Sweet Cider Time When You Were Mine
The Apple's Song
The Harrison Yankee Doodle
The Ripest Of Apples 
The Sour Apple Tree
Under The Old Apple Tree
Up To The Apple Boughs Down In The Clover
Wandering Angus (Golden Apples Of The Sun) / Song of Wandering Angus
Wassail Lovely Apple Tree
When It's Apple-Picking Time In Annapolis Valley
Where The Apple Praties Grow
Woozy with Cider (James Yorkston)

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: melodeonboy
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:53 PM

"I believe the Brogdale http://www.brogdale.org/ collection of apple genotypes has already been much reduced by funding cuts and is under further threat as a result of con-dem insanity."

Given the changes that have taken place over the past couple of years or so at Brogdale, e.g. the commercialisation of the main visitors' area, I suspect that you're right, Richard. Last year I paid £7 to enter the cherry festival so that I could... buy cherries! The entrance fee at last weekend's apple festival was £8. I bought the apples I wanted in the outside area and decided not to pay £8 in order to then buy £6 worth of apples! My "capitalisation" on the public purse may well be more modest than you'd imagined! :)

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:54 PM

That wasn't what you were saying in the Good Intent - defending your right as capitalist landlord to have your tenants' rents paid in full by the state whereas owner occupiers even of modest properties - you know the one I particularly refer to - cannot even claim full mortgage interest much less the capital element (even if on full relevant benefits). Indeed I seem to remember you defending the landlord as "offering a public service" rather than as most perceive him as a leech.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:43 AM

Had an Egremont Russet with my lunch today, courtesy of Morrisons, yum yum.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:54 AM

I have a Crawley Beauty tree in my garden. This is an old Sussex apple - a cross between a crisp eater and a sweet cooker. The fruit makes wonderful crumbles and pies and apple cake. There's an annual apple weekend (just gone) at Middle Farm (at Firle in Sussex) where apples are pressed and juice is sold, and where visitors can bring their own apples to be pressed. Middle Farm is also the home of the English Cider Centre, with barrels and bottles of all sorts of cider from all over the country for sampling and for sale.

There's an old orchard down the road which, many years ago, had a huge variety of apples being grown and for sale. There was a winter apple howling - great fun - and the then owners kindly let walkers stroll unhindered through the orchard fields. It was sold a few years ago and the current incomer owners have let the orchard go to weed and built fences and erected "Keep Out" notices everywhere. and so the countryside changes...

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Sooz
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:13 PM

I love James Grieve (for eating not cooking) but I haven't seen any for years. Mike is a Russet man and we have Bramleys in the garden - anybody want some?

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:18 PM

On JG, I wrongly thought old apple might have been one but apparently shape is wrong.

If I remember rightly, that (JG) one is good 3 ways?

Early cooker
Eater
Juicer.

---
ours does make that but seems to be something else.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM

'I love James Grieve ....'

he speaks well of you, Sooz.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:06 AM

Sometimes eating apples can be alright for cooking. If I want to do an alternative to apple sauce I roast a couple of apple quarters that have a bit of a blush to them alongside roast pork. It goes together really well and not too sweet to have with meat.

Eating apples are great in an apple cake with just a little bit of cinnamon and served with custard.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 03:45 PM

In the garden where I grew up we had 2 apple trees. one was a Bramley and the other was a Lord Lambourne, a smallish rosy apple with very white flesh. The Bramley didn't do well but the eater was so prolific we had apples stored everywhere and used to swap with neighbours pears and gooseberries. We had loganberry bushes too and my favourite desert was apple and loganberry crumble. Yum!

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:35 PM

Song about apple varieties - "Say Goodbye" by Steve Ashley (on his Everyday Lives CD)

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: maeve
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:52 PM

We had an interesting apple variety thread going for a while, here:
"Your Favorite Antique Apple" thread

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: maeve
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM

A friend sent me a link to this a little while ago. I haven't seen it referenced here, though I may have missed it:
"Ancient orchards restored to save fruit and wildlife" - BBC News
"The National Trust and Natural England effort follows a 60% decline in ancient orchards in England since the 1950s.

Some 27 orchards have been restored and replanted and 12 new ones created, with some 2,200 trees planted..."

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: I don't know
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:58 AM

Good crop of Charles Ross this year & Worcester & Darcy spice(always pick these on bonfire night). These are only young trees 4 years old. This year added conference pear also have 4 year old Vitoria Plum & English Greengage. Father in law has the Egermont Russet, Coxes Orange Pippin, Laxon Superb & Brambly, so we get a lovely supply of english apples all winter.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:36 AM

"I love James Grieve (for eating not cooking) but I haven't seen any for years."

It's always the first of my apples - we always end up with more than we know what to do with.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:27 PM

Think I read once the JG also has something else in common with our thing. It's not a good keeper and bruises easily and is therefore not really good for the supermarket shelf. Which according to my thinking atm may be why you might not see them - unless you are the grower.

Subject: RE: BS: The English Apple
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 02:12 PM

Today's cryptic crossword in the Independent (UK) incorporated various apples - and you had to solve 5 down to realise that ("Jobs concern? A place found in training (5)")! I haven't quite finished it yet...

Kitty