BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor

Subject: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:06 AM

I just heard on the news that someone paid someone else for the right to shoot and kill the most magnificent animal in England, a giant Red Deer stag at approx 9 feet tall.

Surely that animal roaming wild on Exmoor belonged to the entire nation, how can anyone claim the right to sell it to be shot?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:45 AM

It's a case of, ' I can therefore I will, ' morals or ethics are not taken into consideration by such people, I find this very offensive.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:50 AM

Is there any way I can claim the right to shoot the individual that did it? Or would that be too humane?

BTW., IMO the stag belonged to itself, not to the nation or to any individual. Nobody had the right to shoot it.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

Be the rights & wrongs of hunting, shooting, &c as they may, I was most distressed & appalled to read the account of this in the paper this morning.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:59 AM

The story on BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 10:20 AM

Sickening, this beautiful animal had a right to life. Hard to believe that an individual will no doubt share a brandy or two with a few friends over Christmas and point up to it's head mounted on his wall and boast about what he done. I do hope nature treats him accordingly in the years ahead.

I don't care if it is a fox, badger, stag or stout they have a right to live on this land as much as we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:08 AM

Fucking bastards. May the head fall off the wall and cause a fatal injury to the idiot who did this.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:07 PM

The poor (SO often) seem to have the attitude - "Its a nice day lets go out and Vandalise something"

The Rich (TOO often) say "Its a nice day lets go out and KILL something"

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM

I hope the meat is so tough he can't cut the friggin' gravy!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:19 PM

We have "Sportsmen" who kill black bears. I's a macho thing; they are not fit to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:30 PM

This deer will come back to haunt him, in many ways...

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Zen
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM

Appalling and sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:32 PM

And kat, you're spot on...what a fucking bastard!   It was only the other day we were all reading about this fella, how he was being hailed as the biggest, most beautiful stag in the country...I guess someone else read it too and thought they'd 'have a bit of fun' and gain a spot of notoriety.

This will come back to the two people concerned...


I was listening to dear Carla Lane earlier on, on BBC Radio Devon, sounding so distressed and utterly befuddled as to why anyone would want to do this..

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM

Had something similar in Edinburgh two weeks ago. A fishmongers had in its window what they said was the largest lobster to have been taken from the Forth in forty years, and they were auctioning it. And I rather doubt the winner was going to put it back.

Lobsters live for decades, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:41 PM

(I have eaten black bear... disguised in lasagna. The bear had perpetrated repeat house break-ins outside Fairbanks, Alaska.)

It's sad to lose this fellow in his prime.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:24 PM

I saw the 'Emperor' in a photo when another poster flagged up the killing. Now I'm for individuals who wish to, taking responsibility for getting their own meat for the pot or whatever, but there was something decidedly 'ominous' (as regarding an Omen) in the look of this 'royal' beast. I was certainly struck by the killing of this stag at some level hard to describe in any event.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:37 PM

I posted this on the woodlands thread this morning, after having a post deleted last night:


(No posts were deleted from that thread:be sure to double-check after posting]

Exmoor Emperor Dead.

I'm re-posting this link because some kindly US mudelf seems to have deleted my original post (which, I admit was a bit of a rant but I certainly do not apologise). It was a rant because this story made me really angry and is relevant to this thread because it shows what we're up against, why where this animal was shot is important and the inherent class prejudice that underlies the Tories move to sell this land. Rich licensed hunters killing the largest single wild animal on the Island so he can stick it's head on his wall. The same people

Now, US mudelves listen up and try to understand: there is a profound difference in the wildlife biotas of our countries and the hunting that occurs in and of them. The huge majority of our country is cultivated land and that which isn't is generally upland which exists in National Parks (most often not wild ones like yours) and private land owned by rich people. The private land owned by rich people was taken, for the most part from our ancestors by the acts of enclosure or, if you're a highland Scot, forcibly in the clearances by rich Scottish nobles in collusion with the British government who wanted to break the Clans once and for all (the Jacobite rebellion was still in their minds). That and, of course, pure greed.

These acts of theft were both performed under the guise of 'economic reform', as the current act of selling of our forests and woodlands will be. Much of the vast area upland stolen from the people is now used for hunting; rich people paying for the privilege of blasting the shit out of animals for sport. Now, I don't object to hunting per se and as long as everyone eats what they kill and what they kill is not endangered then fine and dandy - I'll have a brace of pheasants for the pot myself, plus as in the US many normal people go out to bag a bird or rabbit for dinner and I would defend that right to the death. Many red deer (elk to our US brothers and sisters) are shot as part of managed culls - fine too. But much of the land is closed to ordinary people, and the rich landowners object to open access of our own countryside because it would affect the shooting for their rich customers, and the killing of the Exmoor Emperor signifies the contempt these tosspots (not a swearword - see Thomas Hardy etc) hold our common heritage in, and those of us not lucky enough to be stuffed to the gunnels with cash. They don't want the proles on their land, full stop.

In the UK we live with an increasing sense of distance from the land, which many of our ancestors have occupied for thousands of years - we have an innate sense we belong to the land and that the land is our common treasury which belongs to all who live on our Island. Whether people's families have lived here for one or a thousand years irrelevant in a sense; the feeling of belonging to a land is massively important to our wellbeing. We are losing that connection, and to many ordinary people (especially those in urban populations) any connection to the land they live on is an alien concept altogether. For every big stag killed like this, for every bit of woodland sold, that link gets even weaker and we become lesser people for it. We become more alienated, more angry and more spiritually bewildered and confused. We turn to more instant methods of gratifying this deep yearning to be part of the whole, and that gratification, in whatever form it takes, is ultimately hollow and transient and nothing more than a distraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:57 PM

There was a bloke on the news saying the stag had to be killed cos its teeth were getting worn out. seems a pity, doesn't it?

I suppose if it were put in a deer park you could regulate its diet and find it easier things to eat.

There are lots of little deer round here in Dorset, and lots of people shoot them. in fact some local people don't believe in buying meat - given all the deer and rabbits that are around.

I think they look very nice (the rabbits and the deer) and I wouldn't fancy shooting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:13 PM

It is a fact that deer are shot in large numbers all over Britain; with little or no predation the deer population is only limited by food and culling is a normal (some would say essential) part of deer management in the UK today.

This is usually carried out in a very low key way by stalkers who have an interest in improving the herd; they will intimately know their herd and will select specific animals (those who advancing age leave vulnerable to starvation etc) to remove to maintain viable numbers and the balance of deer in the area
In such culls the stalkers are legally required to use firearms and ammunition of an appropriate calibre for the species

It seems that the Emperor was a dominant stag still in his prime, not yet on any list for culling due to old age and, although it may be possible to construct an argument that his dominant position was ultimately not good for the gene pool of the herd, it seems that his slaughter was purely as a 'trophy' animal

The UK system of land ownership and game laws means that landowners have free rein to kill permitted species on their own land – or sell those right to others!

Sensible 'management' is not the same as commercial greed

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM

I think this might have been going to be Emperor's last successful rut (some other very large stags possibly his offspring have been noted) and maybe next year or the year after culling would have been merciful, but it is surely most unsporting to shoot during the rut. I'd be very upset myself if shot while on the job!

I tend to agree with Sugarfoot Jack above in both respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM

Before I go any further let me state I am not in agreement about what has gone on with this deer but I am taking it in context with the other 300.000 deer that are 'culled' each year ostensibly on conservation grounds. This deer was one in 300,000, magnificent though he was, and he may have been coming toward the end of his mighty reign due to his age. None of that makes it right.

We recently had a thread where humane slaughter of animals for meat was talked about a great deal. In some ways venison could actually be seen as likely to be more humane in its making than beef, lamb or pork. Imagine if you will, grazing the grass peacefully when BANG! and down you end. Dead. They say a good marksman can kill a deer outright with a single shot to the heart. No herding up, shoved into wagons, petrified journeys to a slaughterhouse... BANG! dropped in the fields you lived in. If it is true about the single shot and it always being done in the wild then could it not be more humane? I would take the advices of those who live in the country to tellme if this is the case.

The ethics of selling the death of an animal for a trophy seems quite wrong. In the case of a deer I presume most of the meat is used for consumption so it's not just about the trophy?

In short I have extremely mixed feelings on this subject. If they cold not have shooting rights woud we have so much extensive country left on which these animals and other game can breed? I know I would likely feel better off not having been born if I was raised simply for the sport of a marksman's bullet. Countryfolk say that many of these animals get a chance to escape. I have no idea how true that is. They also say that usually it is the weak, the injured and the infirm that are culled. This was not the case here was it?

It's all so mixed up emotions for sure. Magnificent beast, living his life as evolution intended (I am not saying evolution has intent!), shot down dead for a trophy. All we can hope maybe is that his death will now serve to better those lives of other deer?

In reality, sold as a trophy or not, our herds of deer face this end all over the country. If it is wrong for one it is wrong for all.

Quite whether he was the most magnificent animal in England depends on how we define magnificent. Many other animals fit the adjective depnding on your own personal definitions. What is good to see is so many here on Mudcat displaying their sense of feeling on the subject

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:51 PM

Well, I was brought up on Exmoor where I ran as free as this stag did. I would just like to say that I would have taken it very unkindly if someone had shot me, especially in the rutting season. Especially if it was by some rich trophy hunter from London or Taunton or some other furrin parts.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:01 PM

It's a fair point Greg...

I can understand shooting animals that may have been mortally wounded in fights during the rut. That would be humane. But I would have thought killing healthy males/females in the breeding season was both counterproductive to conservation and stupid.

The report on the BBC this evening said tht somone hadseen men loading the beast into a vehicle in the dark. Would that mean this hapless beast was shot in the night with all the technology that would entail? Nightsights hardly seem fair or skillful in such hunting surely?

Anyone know more about this?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:08 PM

If I wish to go elk (stag) hunting here in Idaho I have literally hundreds of thousands of public acres on which to do it. Granted, the hunting is managed but I can pick which Game Management Areas I wish to use. As long as I stay within the law -- the limitations on how many I can take, have them checked by Fish and Game, etc. -- I'm pretty much free. The same goes for fishing -- else I catch a sturgeon, and then I can't even remove it from the water for catch-and-release but have to keep it IN the water while taking out the hook.

Folks here -- well, "visitors" so far -- have killed elk and only taken the head. Do that -- Idaho has a law about "wasting the meat of game animals." Those that have been caught are heavily fined, lose all hunting privileges (and we have reciprocity with surrounding states!), and have a choice of community service or jail time.

If you kill an animal you should eat it or see that the meat goes to "Hunters For The Hungry" or a similar organization. Otherwise you're a subhuman killer.

And if you have an overabundance of a certain species, as many places here in the States have with whitetail deer, shoot the does. The bucks don't have the babies and the meat is just as good.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM

I don't know whether culling is a necessary thing or whether it is sometimes just a guise for slaughter. But there is surely a world of difference between the sensible management of deer herds, and someone seeking permission to shoot any living thing, for no other reason than the "satisfaction" of killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:12 PM

Emperor was a famous stag. Thus, he is worth far more to some.

I expect that the first story about him, a week or so ago sealed his death warrant, because some little shite read that and thought...."Aha!"

Everything these days has a 'sale' value..and Emperor had become a Celebrity Deer. More's the pity. Had the media not flagged him up in the first place, then who knows, he may well have still been alive today.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM

the West of Scotland is infested with these sad bastards, from England, Denmark and Germany mainly...a very few Scots among them.

There is something quite sickening about killing animals for fun, something that harks back to the Roman circuses. I just cant understand it, some say it is to make up for sexual deficiencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:37 PM

The four killed in the helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in Co Down, Northern Ireland on Saturday were all close friends of Prince Charles, they were in Ireland on a stag shooting trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

If you don't cull then the older stags essentially die of starvation. Which is all very natural, I suppose, but probably not very nice for the stags.
As Emma says, there are no natural predators for deer in the UK, yet, land boundaries are finite. In the wild deer will migrate long distances to find pasture when the herd size increases, but it's not so easy in the UK (that, by the way, is why you see all those deer signs by motorways) so the only thing that regulates herd size is culling.
Most culling is carried out by professional stalkers, but 'trophy' beasts - those with reasonable antlers - attract a premium and the rights to shoot them are sold. The money that someone will pay to shoot a trophy stag will pay for a lot of husbandry and conservation on the estate. You can argue until the cows come home about the mentality of someone who wants to shoot a trophy stag, but it seems daft not to capitalise on the value of the sport for the betterment of the estate.
As for shooting during the rut; that's not usually done, and I wouldn't be in favour of it, but we don't know the full circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:53 PM

The four killed in the helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in Co Down, Northern Ireland on Saturday were all close friends of Prince Charles, they were in Ireland on a stag shooting trip.
And your point is? You seem to be an odd sort; rabidly pro-Tory, anti-immigration and borderline racist, yet not prepared to kow-tow to your 'betters'. A colour sergeant's bloody nightmare.
It must be so very confusing being Richie Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM

A couple of points - apparently his meat would be on the tough side. For eating, younger deer would be selected.

Secondly, the land ownership issue. Is Exmoor divided up into different ownerships? So he could have been safe if on someone else's land, not marked off with fences?

I camped down there once, on the Quantocks. And when I went to leave, the stag hunt had closed off the main road between Minehead and the south so I couldn't get out. An elderly lady in a tweed jacket, on a horse, looking like a Thelwell cartoon, flagged down a lorry going north, and held him up, and anything behind him. My presence behind her was not acknowledged at any point. Her horse though getting on to the verge might be a good idea, and I thought she was letting me by, so started up the car. I know it was the horse's idea, because she pulled it back onto the road. I would have been going away from the hunt - I knew where they were going, because the followers had all turned up outside the campsite, lined up for a good view. Funny how the followers always know where the prey is going to go, isn't it?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Alan Day
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:23 PM

There is a Red Deer preservation Society that cull deer to control the herds. Near to here we have Ashdown Forest where there is a huge deer population. I suppose that many create car crashes ,but in a 40 mile an hour zone you should see the speed that the cars travel at ,with no thought that a deer may suddenly leap out into the road. A mother and her foal did that to me about two weeks ago ,I respect the speed limit and they were not injured.
The killing of this magnificent stag "The Emperor" sickens me .
I hope the killer is named and shamed
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:35 PM

Richie - serves the bastards right.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:43 PM

Gervase Webb.... surely you aren't suggesting attempting proper management of the herd? Why, that might be humane to anyone who understands same.

Hey.... tree huggers... lighten up a tad. Take a course in livestock management and see if you can figure out that it actually applies to wild animals as well.

As for shooting the humans who practice proper wildlife management, well, that might better than dying a slow and painful death in a nursing home. Can I hire you to pull the trigger on me when I need it?

Get outraged. It's all the fashion. Personally... Xmas is coming and, even if the meat is tough, a nice mincemeat pie or two, with vanilla ice cream, sounds yummy.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 07:45 PM

Red deer... "These are the largest British deer, the subject for Landseers' Monarch of the Glen, with mature stags standing almost 48 inches (1.2m) at the shoulder...." (firstnature.com)

9' tall? What kinda deer stand 9' tall in Britain?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: ragdall
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM

Rafflesbear,
It's sad that a local icon could so easily be hunted down and shot. If he was so important to the area, should he not have been protected by laws?

I'm assuming that a certain number of deer must be eliminated every year or there won't be enough food and diseases will become a problem. If many natural predators have been eradicated in England, isn't controlled hunting is the only way to prevent deer starvation and spread of illnesses?

We have "Sportsmen" who kill black bears. I's a macho thing; they are not fit to eat.

Kendall,
I wouldn't argue with you that some (many?) people kill black bears for fun, but I can't help wonder what you folks do to your bears to make them inedible?

Folks up here eat black bears. My parents and grandparents did, (I've never hunted.) My dad told me they taste like pork. A friend of mine who wasn't able to work fed his family on bear he shot (along with deer and fish he caught).

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM

This kind!

I expect it was the
"giving the Emperor plenty of time to prove he's still the UK's alpha male......this is a very fine beast. He's so big and powerful.'

- right 'bring him on' sort of mentality

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 08:22 PM

I'm not against hunting, but killing a one of a kind like this seems a shame.
Bear meat is greasy, and if I want to taste pork I will buy pork.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 10:26 PM

IMO, this was murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 03:01 AM

Poor Richie clearly does love his animals. He got so excited that he sent me a personal message: Have you a problem whiskers are do you want one ?
I do like to see an old man find a bit of passion in the twilight of his years!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Big Phil
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 03:05 AM

Oh Deer,

Pun intended, I do wish the tree huggers who post on here had some idea of wildlife management, then their posts might make more sense.

There is very little land in England that is not owned by somebody. This owned land if it has game on it will (most of the time) be "rented" out to some shooting syndicate or other.

This deer that was shot, fell into the above situation, someone paid brass to shoot it - all legal and above board.

After a number of years a Stag will start to "go back" meaning his antlers will be smaller and he will start to lose condition. I also believe this beast was the dominent Stag for many years, time to alter the gene pool by taking him out and giving another chance to enhance the herd.

I summise that a handsome ammount of brass was handed over for the "pleasure of shooting this beast, no doubts many thousands.
It was "his time" and I have no problem with that.

If any of you moaners out there eat ANY kind of meat, I guarentee it will not be killed as humanely as this fine animal was, and that's a fact. End of.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: acegardener
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 04:24 AM

It was reported that it was shot from the highway, which I would have thought was an offence in it's self. But in defence of the culling if it was that and not just a trophy hunter, it was seeing off allcomers and shagging it's own daughters. A good enough reason for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:08 AM

It was also reported it was his time yet, the animal had a few more years to go before he reached the age of culling. So far for the not understanding tree huggers not understanding wildlife management.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:10 AM

newspaper report

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:11 AM

That's what all dominant males in herd animals do. The principle has worked for millennia. Incest is a wholly human concept. I have not seen any suggestion that the shooting was necessary to maintain the gene pool.

If the shooting was for genuine stock/herd management purposes and had taken place outside the rut it would be unobjectionable - compare the US culls of bison. But neither of those tests, apparently, were satisfied.

By way of comparison, there is an almost complete ban on taking freshwater coarse fish from English waters, because, allegedly, of the need to maintain stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:38 AM

Incest a wholly human concept? Try telling that to my rams!

And read the other articles in the Guardian; this one, which states:
"This beast may simply have got too big and too old for the managed land that it was on. It was getting to the point where he needed to be shot because he had already bred and there was a chance he could interbreed with his own daughters and granddaughters. While it is always a shame to lose an iconic animal, it's much better than starvation and disease,"
And this one, which adds:
"Red stags are in season and as long as the stalker was the landowner, or had the permission of the landowner, and used a legal calibre rifle, then no laws were broken in shooting this stag."

But I suppose it's far easier to jerk the knee than actually to understand the issue. The main bones of contention here are the decision to shoot at the start of the rut and the apparent condition of the stag. I can't make a judgement because I simply don't know the facts. That won't stop a lot of needlessly angry people proving that ignorance isn't bliss, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:57 AM

No, my main bone of contention is the taking of a national treasure in a national park for private gain apparently without those charged with looking after the park in the national interest having any say in it.

Will this animal turn up in the Natural History museum for all to see and admire?

I have spent two separate weeks in Exmoor, criss crossed it time and again looking for deer and in that time saw just one. The place is not overrun with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:13 AM

Quite simply, killing for fun is sick! No matter who does it

Inflicting pain for fun is also sick, be it from feral children or brave hunters.

As I have said before, I've nothing against those pricks hunting....as long as its in the jungle, in the dark,and armed with a spear....in fact I would actively encourage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Zen
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:35 AM

That won't stop a lot of needlessly angry people proving that ignorance isn't bliss, of course.

I'm angry about it but am certainly not ignorant of the issues nor, I am sure, are many of the others who've posted and are likewise outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:59 AM

Tree Huggers? Simple minded people make up simple names for complex situations.

Just for the record, I am a retired career conservation officer who fully understands the concept of "Culling". We have to do it here on the island of Isle Au Haut which is part of Acadia National Park. The deer overpopulate and many get pretty gaunt for lack of food. The natives can not even have a garden for their own food because the deer eat everything in sight.
That said, all I said was that to kill a one of a kind is a shame. On top of that, I have to wonder how much money changed hands. Let's call it what it is, slaughter.

How would you feel if someone destroyed the Mona Lisa? would you say, "so what, there are plenty of paintings to gawp at"?


We're all in it together, there's no one to blame,
It's become such a part of the race,
It's eternally tragic that which is magic
Be killed at the end of a glorious race,
From young seals to great whales from water to wood
They fall like leaves in the wind
But, we've fur coats and perfume and trophies on walls
WHAT A HELL OF A RACE TO CALL MEN.
(Song for the animals, David Mallett)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Brian May
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:05 AM

I bet his kids have seen Bambi.

I wonder how he'll explain that one away . . .

Bastard
(and I spent quite a few years with a rifle and even more with a pistol - but I wouldn't shoot any animal I couldn't eat unless it was causing damage or terrorising sheep et al)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:22 AM

I didn't know about this until reading this thread and it is sickening. What gives anyone the right to shoot a living creature just because it's teeth aren't so good because of maturing years. If this happened to people across the country there would be an outcry.

Something similar happened quite a few years back in the West Country this was a unique beautiful albino stag shot by some idiotic vandal for fun. It was so rare to get a glimpse of this lovely animal but unfortunately this ******** spotted it and that was the end of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM

Nice to know that Patsy is prepared to pay for orthodontic work on an elderly stag!
People and animals are different. For good or ill, we eat animals; we don't eat people.
We have also changed the natural habitats in the UK so dramatically that we need to intervene because nature can no longer take her course. Well, she could, of course, but then there would be cries of outrage from people who came across animals that had starved to death, or where populations had grown to migration levels and the M5 was littered with maimed deer, crashed cars and orphaned children.
We already have as many as 74,000 accidents involving deer annually in the UK with the current population controls.

Anyone who drinks milk, eats eggs, wears wool or leather or who eats meat is complicit in far greater exploitation of animals, but because they are at one remove from the dirty deed, that's OK. I just wish the same level of outrage could be stoked against battery and intensive farming, but I'm willing to bet that a good number of those bleating on this thread are happy to buy their meat, milk and eggs from Tesco's, Asda and Sainsbury's, wear wool and have leather belts and shoes. If you're strict vegan, fine, but if you tuck into your eggs and bacon or stuff your face with a burger from the stall at the festival, you're really rather missing the point.
Me? I'm happy to eat the produce of my own chickens, sheep and pigs. I also shoot wild game and fish for salmon and trout and will barter venison from a stalker friend of mine. I know they've all had a decent, non-intensive existence and I can happily eat them with a clean conscience. As for the rest of you, however...
But hypocrisy always was such a quintessentially English trait.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:20 PM

"What gives anyone the right to shoot a living creature just because it's teeth aren't so good because of maturing years. If this happened to people across the country there would be an outcry."

Really? The NHS would cost less (only healthy people bimbling about) and there would be no problems getting an NHS Dentist as people would have incentive to look after their teeth.

As for the "Emperor" maybe his time had just come, but as no "body" has been found or reported then who is to say that the "Emperor" is actually dead (Nobody saw him shot, only that a shot was heard).

It is also extremely damaging to have one stag dominant for too long. The UK's gun laws and hunting laws have resulted in the largest animal native to these shores being all but classified as vermin in Scotland with deer populations being out of control although I think the severity of last winter has naturally thinned the herds out. In culls it is normally the hinds that are shot. A couple of years ago on Sunday nights the Grampian Police used to shut down sections of the A9 and A96 to shoot Red Deer close to the road as they were a danger to traffic.

When you hunt with a Stalker he will tell you which animal to shoot and when.

"I have spent two separate weeks in Exmoor, criss crossed it time and again looking for deer and in that time saw just one. The place is not overrun with them.

Just because you didn't see them does not mean that they are not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

Gervase - How many of the people you denigrate have sheeps heads, chickens heads or pigs heads mounted on pieces of wood and stuck on their walls?

Teribus - I believe they are there, my point is that in square mile after square mile of specifically looking for them across the whole of the moor with views of the moorland that stretch to the horizon, in two weeks of looking I saw one deer. However I couldn't begin to count the number of people I saw in this thinly populated part of the country

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:13 PM

I've got a ram's skull on the top of a bookcase - does that count? And I've seen plenty of sheepskin rugs in my time.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:17 PM

You couldn't have a chicken's head on the wall.

That would be fowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

Gervase - unless you are one of the people you denigrate, it doesn't count

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM

This is not about eating meat or using hides to make clothes, it is about killing one particular magnificent animal. I guarantee his meat will be tougher than a woodpecker's beak.
Can we please stick to the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:33 PM

Only our ignorance could put such anthropomorphic 'values' on this death as it deserved to die because of breeding with it's daughters. Inbreeding among many animals is common. It's often also useless as any offspring may be sterile and, if successful, and favoured by natural selection , then inbreeding can flourish in some species as the best survival strategy. In our past evolutionary history - long before human laws were made - incest would have been rife among Homo-type populations.

In many animals though inbreeding occurs because the animals are being kept in a closer contact with each other than they would in truly wild conditions. Inbreeding is a result of confinement rather than the default setting fo that animal. In other words, if we are to invoke incest laws on this beast, then we have to likely blame the humans who keep the herd all close together and not in wholly natural conditions of that animals evolution.

If we are to keep animls in such confines then I guess we owe it to them to manage the herd well and kill off the ones who are weak, ill, injured or dying. In such circumstances I suppose we take the role of the prey animals that we killed off long ago that would usually prey on such beasts.

My heart feels wholly against what they did to this magnificent animal. He earned his place naturally and the whole idea of ruts and lekking is nature's invention. He was doing no wrong.

If human arrogance is to start judging animals by human laws then we really do need to start giving animals human rights! We owe it to them to give them some rights anyway, on account of our so called domain over them, but judging them and executing them on human traits seems more than a tad wrong

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 04:59 PM

Giving human rights to animals?

Well, that's it. That really takes the cake. That stag matters more than your own child? Good luck with that concept.

As far as labelling this as killing for sport or all the other stuff, especially the mounting of chicken heads as trophies... good lord, come on.

Kendall... "tree huggers"... "simple minded"? Yup, that's me. So simple that I know that the outrage of tree huggers is often unfounded, counterproductive, superficial and just naive. Not all the time, but more often than not.

As far as the meat from that old bugger being tough... not necessarily... especially if he was shot before the rut. But, that would be sommat that someone who has knowledge of farm or wildlife management would know.

You tree huggers stay warm and fed. BUT, don't eat any meat and DON'T CUT ANY TREES DOWN EH? I hear the Big Bad Wolf is selling sticks and hay for building houses and is offering discounts for those who qualify, so you should be fine for shelter. Dunno what you'll use to cook with... oh, right... you don't cook.. you eat yer sprouts raw... yer "green".

What a load.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:42 PM

"An extremely rare white deer discovered in the Scottish lowlands has become subject of a bidding war between hunters wanting to kill it."

"The white-coated roebuck, which experts say is not an albino, is so unusual that only a handful have been seen in Britain since the end of the Second World War.

Kevin Stuart, who has the stalking rights to the 3,000-acre estate where the wild deer lives, hopes to get up to £6,000, four times the norm, from a trophy-seeking client when the hunting season opens in three weeks."

News article March last year

not for herd management
not for food
not 'cos it's dangerous in any way
but..... it's a rare genetic throwback; historically very uncommon
so just 'cos you want the 'trophy' and you can pay enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM

"Kevin Stuart, who has the stalking rights to the 3,000-acre estate where the wild deer lives, hopes to get up to £6,000, four times the norm, from a trophy-seeking client when the hunting season opens in three weeks."

There must be a million people in the British Isles that have enough money to beat that price and not kill the animal. Take it to a game preserve or huge private estate where it will not be shot.

It seems odd that there was no federal game management personel around to protect the huge buck at Exmoor. Perhaps your government should stop spending itself into bankruptcy on social engineering programs and get back to basics like national defence, infrastructure building and public lands management.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:00 PM

"Giving human rights to animals?

Well, that's it. That really takes the cake. That stag matters more than your own child? Good luck with that concept."

That was not what I said or intimated gnu though is it? I said "If human arrogance is to start judging animals by human laws then we really do need to start giving animals human rights!". The point being we cannot hold animals responsible to the same laws that we come under and have made. They are man's laws, not natures.

Who said anything about our own cildren anyway> I certainly stayed on topic about the deer.

with regards

np

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:04 PM

"Curiouser and Curiouser" said Bambi...for some think The Emperor is wearing new clothes..

Was that a Deer, dear?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:29 PM

"It seems odd that there was no federal game management personel around to protect the huge buck at Exmoor. Perhaps your government should stop spending itself into bankruptcy on social engineering programs and get back to basics like national defence, infrastructure building and public lands management."

pdq -

As I said in my post of Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:13 PM

"The UK system of land ownership and game laws means that landowners have free rein to kill permitted species on their own land – or sell those right to others!"

From the Exmoor National Park site

"National Parks are part of a 'family' of protected areas in Britain. They are protected because the inspiration of their scenery and opportunities they provide for outdoor recreation are seen as being of benefit to the nation.

However, the term 'National Park' does not mean that such an area belongs to the nation.
Much of their funding comes from central government but they are not run or owned by government.

Like other large areas of countryside, they are made up of a large number of properties belonging to a variety of landowners.

In common with other areas of open countryside, much land belongs to large estates in private or public ownership, with private ownership being in the majority."

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM

Rules are made by the government and if they are cumbersome and unworkeable, change them.

There is no excuse for this animal not receiving effective government protection.

Also, there is no reason to blame its death on proper sportsmen since nobody knows who killed it.

Perhaps it is now in Saudi Arabia or UAE? I recall a member of the Saudi royal family offering $75,000 per Peragrine falcon. He had dozens, all poached from the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM

Good news if it's true Lizzie, but you can't believe everything you hear....

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:51 PM

A cunning plan - but let down by the fact that It would be rather challenging to smuggle a stag out through Heathrow in your underpants. It's the antlers, you see. Tricky things, antlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:58 PM

never heatd of antler luggage then.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:59 PM

LOL Al - welcome back

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:39 PM

We just can't stay on the subject, can we?

Gnu, exactly what the hell is a tree hugger anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:50 PM

"That was not what I said or intimated gnu though is it?"

Not really. But that is my take. When someone thinks that another person should protect an aged stag that is fouling the herd rather than culling it at the highest price offered (as farmers do EVERY DAY) then that seems to me that you are making a decision for that person that you have no right to do... perhaps that person is putting food on the table for THEIR child?

Add it up. It goes on here in the back woods of New Brunswick, Canada EVERY DAY. You wanna save that stag, go for it. Otherwise, that is just meat on the table, one way or another.

That's what I REALLY don't get about the tree huggers. People in my neck of the woods are HUNGRY! What don't you understand about farm or game management and HUNGRY? How can you make your judgement call? It's majestic? It's cute? Sir Paul is cute and I'd club that twit in a minute if he didn't pass the seal flipper pie.

Dale, my bestest Good Ol Buddy Boy said it best... "I like to eat. You like to eat? Fuck the game wardens. I'm gonna eat." Then he pounded a large...

I'm with Dale on this one. And with Dale's kids. Fire up the hob and let's fry.... btw... I don't find that stag all that cuddly.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:53 PM

People who collect "sporting trophies" like this ought to be treated the same way as birds-egg collectors - the trophies confiscated, and the collectors subject to criminal sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM

Kendall... a tree hugger is someone who knows shit about trees but wants to save them from a fate they know nothing about.

I can cite an excellent example. Tree huggers had a ``sit in`` and blocked lumber operations from cutting old growth forest in The Christmas Mountains of New Brunswick a while back. Yuppie twits with a bit of knowledge but not enough.

We had a hurricane that felled over 6B cubic metres of that forest. Despite the rush of resources to clean up the mess and make the best of it, proper sylviculture would have done a much better job.

The species in danger that the tree huggers wanted to protect were not protected by mother nature. Proper sylviculture would have protected those species. But, ya can't argue with a tree hugger in a lawn chair on a lumber road with a cooler full of beer and the news media making a show out of it. Only thing more obtuse would be Sir Paul there with a seal trying to get more TV.

That`s a tree hugger. Someone who sighs when a stag or a seal or a chicken dies and wants to emote and sometimes, make money from it.

I don`t like death. Nobody LIKES death. But, logic and proper management falls to humans. Those that say the animals know better than us are... animals. Seriously... if you think inbreeding is all the rage... well... need I really say it...

Okay, just for fun then, go fuck yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:29 PM

What is this about ``trophie`s... I don`t understand when that was established. Maybe I missed sommat.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: DougR
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:20 AM

That is, indeed, a very sad story.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:02 AM

Latest news:

Emperor has been shot because he was gay!

He was last seen making love to Stag GerLee

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:55 AM

"..A cunning plan - but let down by the fact that It would be rather challenging to smuggle a stag out through Heathrow in your underpants. It's the antlers, you see. Tricky things, antlers..."


"Is that a passport in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?" said Mae, the Customs Officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:16 AM

Ah yes, tree huggers. Now I get it. That's what they call those people in California who want to save what is left of the old growth redwoods. The lumber companies have already taken 90% of it and now they want the rest, citing jobs!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:35 PM

Emperor of Exmoor may not have been shot at all

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:41 PM

Damn, now we've got to reverse the outrage bus back into the garage.
On second thoughts, while th engine's running, let's use it to pop down to Tesco and pick up some of their 'two for a fiver' chickens and some value ham.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:07 PM

Well, that certainly spoils a good "Mad on"

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:10 PM

just because something didn't happen (although reported in numerous normally reliable sources) doesn't make it any better as an idea

As for Tesco, I haven't shopped there for anything at all since I saw their attitude to chicken rearing shown on an investigative tv programme

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

Nice to know that Patsy is prepared to pay for orthodontic work on an elderly stag!
People and animals are different. For good or ill, we eat animals; we don't eat people"
Today, the Korowai are one of very few tribes still believed to eat human flesh as a cultural practice. It is also still known to be practised as a ritual and in war in various Melanesian tribes.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:54 PM

"Today, the Korowai are one of very few tribes still believed to eat human flesh as a cultural practice."

Ooh, let's send 'em 20 years supply of Corporate Bastards to munch on!



Folks are slowing down a little...I posted the story about His Majesty possibly still wandering the Exmoor Hills, last night..umpteen posts above this...

'Devon Life' magazine - The Deer Edition

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:15 PM

gnu...hate to tell you this, but Trophy hunting has been around a LONG time. Meat? What meat? I just want to hang the head on my wall!



What point did you miss, there Bud?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM

Interesting, The Korowai have invited me to do a gig
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM

Scorch... the point that this was the only reason the stag may have been shot.

As for trophy hunting being around a long time... yeah... so what? Doesn't make it right. (I was taught to take everything back where the game was dropped after it was butchered... antlers, hide... and give it back. It was only proper and respectful.)

Ain't it obvious what I missed?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:23 PM

Why is it showing respect to dump the offal, antlers, skin...?

Imagine you're an antelope and you come across your Dad's coat and antlers....it would be traumatic.

'dad! dad! get up! I promise not to say any more discouraging words, about the sky being cloudy all day!'

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 02:40 AM

Antlers and skin are left on the animal as these have a value and a use. Only the pluck and entrails are left, and foxes, badgers, crows, buzzards and kites usually make short work of these. In a few hours there's not much left of Uncle Dirk at the crime scene, and the youngsters go on their way heedless of the passing of an uncle/cousin/father/brother. Ungrateful little sods.

And, ah yes, the Korowai, bless their little befeathered toes. How could I forget them. Dammit, one pithy post from a pub quiz veteran and the whole thread unravels. It's a fair cop, GSS; The actions of one Melanesian tribe negate all the taboos and culture that have developed in the rest of the globe. Curse you and your anthropology!

On second thoughts, have a look at the original meaning of the phrase "the exception proves the rule". The clue is in the gunsmith's meaning of "proof".

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:02 AM

I always thought that there was something odd about this story. TV reports showing where the body was found but no shots of the body. "Probably killed for a trophy." It would have beeen obvious had there been a body as the trophy items would have been removed.
as they say "where's the venison?"

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM

perhaps its just gone for a stag weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:53 AM

Trophy hunters all suffer from testosterone poisoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:57 AM

someone might eat Prince Charles, THEN AL LEAST WE WOULD BE SPARED Prince Charles guitar picking.
http://www.mjra.net/WillFly/guitarist.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:38 PM

Stag Night at Lochcranza Isle of Arran

I love this picture, many versions of the same scene can be seen on local postcards but you are more likely to 'bag' one with a driver than a gun as they spend a lot of time on the local golf course probably constituting a natural hazard :)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

There was a guy in the states that made how to hunt videos on bow hunting. He was a supposed expert on bow hunting elk. In one of the video's he killed this incredible huge Elk from a tree stand. However it turned out that the Elk was on Yellowstone National Park. The Elk was well known and was not afraid of people, it use to walk up to them. The park service recognized the area he was hunting and the elk he killed fined the crap out of him. Me I think he should have done some jail time ... Sound pretty similar to your situation except some jerk had permission

Good grief

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:36 PM

Even worse is he still sold a ton of videos. So I am sure he could care less about the fine. They should have confiscated all the profits I think ... that would have been a lessen builder. My understand is one is not allowed to profit from an illegal act. So why wasn't that done maybe it was but the TV show didn't point that out only it was one of the best selling bow hunting videos.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

Sound pretty similar to your situation except some jerk had permission

The story about elk killed in Yellowstone sounds like a travesty and, if the guy was really convicted in a court of law, he should do some hard time and all proceeds from the video forfited.

Please note that the subject of this thread has not been shown to dead. No witnesses, no video, no body. The news media is intentionally hyping anger and hatred for the "privleged class", "gun owners" and "trophy hunters" because it suits the agenda.

I hope the animal is found to have wandered off to another estate. I also hope the government takes protecting wildlife more seriously in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:23 PM

100 ?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM

Why should there be a system that allows someone to sell permission to kill something they cannot possibly claim to own? Sounds medieval to me' but then I'm just a serf. But then there's a woman on my block who asks whose ganna take away his licence to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM

A good article here, athough it might be too nuanced for some of the more rabid bunny-huggers to grasp.
For those who can't access the link, it's a piece by Charles Moore, former editor of the Daily Telegraph, and a hate figure to many on the Left.

He addresses first of all the question of whether or not the stag was actually shot - something which is open to debate, before turning to the outrage the publicity has spawned. On the initial claim, by a publicity-hungry Irish animal sentimentalist called Johhny Kingdom, who once imprisoned a three-legged deer in a pen, named it 'Bambi' and kept it as a pet, Moore writes; Whose interest, then, did it serve, apart from helping sales of Mr Austin's photographs and ratings for Mr Kingdom's programmes? The answer, I suggest, is the desire, deep in the puritan character, to get self-righteously angry about animals.

To quote selectively:
It is not wrong, in general, to kill a deer. They are wild animals with no natural predators in these islands. If they are not shot, they die of natural causes, most commonly of starvation. Their welfare is served by killing a percentage of them, because if they grow too numerous, their quality declines and they do too much damage to agriculture, forestry and habitat. If you do not kill a few, there will come a time when you will need to kill a lot.

And...
So you are left with the "How could you…?" line. "How could you be so cruel as to kill such a beautiful thing?" As someone who has shot stags quite often, I have sometimes felt sad about it, a feeling which tends to grow as one gets older. But it is not crueller to kill a stag, which is beautiful, than a rat, which isn't. This is a matter of human taste, not of kindness to animals...

Now I know Charles Moore is a 'toff' and therefore anything he says must - for many - be tosh, but as someone who lives in a rural area but who has worked in the media, I can see little to argue with there.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 06:39 AM

There is nothing wrong in culling deer. In areas of Scotland there are so many that they are destroying the habitat that sustains them(bring back the wolf). The more deer on an estate the higher the land value. However in this case if the stag has been shot it is wrong because it was an icon or totem for the area and as such should have been left alone to die of old age.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 11:24 AM

Theres nothing wrong with culling a deer
I asked one once, this may sound queer
i said, can i shoot you with my gun
he said, go ahead mate, sounds like fun!
use my antlers to hang your hat.....?
I'm sure I can't refuse you that.
And all the world and its many denizens
They cannot do without their venison
So when the royals and their thicko mates
Come to shoot us down on their estates
We stags, we give three hearty cheers
its never wrong to cull a deer.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 11:28 AM

that was me sorry - forgot to do the name thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 02:25 PM

In Michigan, USA the deer are DEvolving due to overpopulation... getting smaller and less robust.

Of course, that is not necessarily a point of arguement for killing such a magnificent animal, just an observation of what goes on in nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:41 PM

Alan,

I think you misunderstood my point. I would no sooner take a rifle and kill such a magnicent animal. But with the lack of a natural preditor to keep them in check someone has to do it. many estates are valued on the number of deer there are to stalk/kill and as a result the habitat is ruined and the deer starve. Hence my comment "bring back the wolf."

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:26 PM

I think it just got lost on its way home.

Had a little too much vino at the stag party.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM

Not being a country person, van, I have no idea about the rights and wrongs of the case. I would never sit in judgement over anybody - certainly not yourself.

no offence intended mate. I was being flippant. Its a great failing on my part.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Slag
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:08 PM

Did he have the proper license? If so then he DID have the right, by law, to take the buck. Few folks subsist on hunting any more. Those who do are called poachers as it is illegal in most places and rightly so. If we didn't raise our animals in mass, behind barriers of some sort, there'd be no animals left and we'd all be living off soyulent green. So, was it a shame? The person paid for the priviledge. He got a fine trophy. The stag was spared a lingering death due to old age and starvation and the bleeding hearts have had a good cry and wrung their hands repeatedly. If that isn't a win-win situation then what is?

If it's alive, it will die: that's inevitable. Nothing in nature is lost. It all serves a purpose. Something will eat it, every bit of it including the waste. This person was fulfilling this undeniable law of nature to the extent that he did indeed consume what he killed. At lest, I hope someone consumed it. The trophy part will be admired for year to come but it to must eventually re-enter the food chain at some point. Just because humans are the top predator at this juncture doesn't mean that humans are somehow exempt from nature's laws. We are part of the order whether you like it or not. Perversion is mummifying your remains and attempting to deny nature her share. It is an honorable thing to return the building blocks back to the builder when we are done with them. It's the way it's supposed to work.

This guy and thousands like him provide the capital for game management which protects stags and other game animals from over hunting. Over hunting, now THAT would be a shame and something to get worked up about. Thank the hunter who takes game legally next time you see a beautiful buck/stag, bear, rabbit, dove, grouse, quail, etc. because if not for the legal hunter and his ilk, there would be no game to admire, paint, photograph, etc. If you really are concerned, by a hunting license but take no game. That's what I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:27 PM

Slag... yup. Got my deer license again this year. Haven't shot a deer since I can't recall. Haven't taken even a partridge for years and I was an avid hunter for many years. As well, we must apply for a doe draw, which I have done for yeeeears longer and never took a doe when I had a doe tag.

Last time I fired on a buck it was to scare him back into the woods when I saw another hunter draw down on him. Yes, not cricket and I don't know why I did that. It just seemed the right thing to do at the time.

But, if that hunter had shot that buck, I would have helped him gut it and haul it and I would have enjoyed my deer steaks and pancakes with maple slurpup. I still love a deer/moose fry but I'd rather photograph them.

Your idea that people should buy a hunting license and not hunt is a great idea. I hope the tree huggers do just that.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Slag
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:37 PM

Sory, I keep forgetting this is in GB. We do things a little different here in the States. All game are under a federal mandate. The several states can only strenghten a federal law by state legislative action, not weaken or dilute it.

Bear does indeed taste a lot like pork but beware, like pork it carries a strain of the trichina worm which can be deadly if it survives the cooking process (under-cooking). You need to get it up to 160 deg. F for at least five minutes or more. Well done is the key factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:38 AM

No offence was taken Alan. I enjoyed your response. I wish I could have written something so witty and have made what is a good point.
ivan

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:07 AM

heard on BBC R4 Broadcasting House Sunday Morning interviews with some people in Exmoor.

1. Where is the proof that the "Emperor" was shot? No one is owning up to shooting or having seen it shot.
2. There are probably as many as 20 stags of comparable size roaming Exmoor. The pictures shown are probably pics of different deer.
3. It is very unlikely the stag was as tall as the media report claims. "9 foot tall deer? That sounds more like a camel."   A stag rarely tops 4 feet. If it were 9 feet it would weigh much more than 300 lbs.
4. The older males should be culled for the optimum health of the herds.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 11:16 AM

You heard all that on the six o'clock moose...?

The 9 foot monster had to go - it was an elk and safety issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:32 PM

no laws were broken is completely irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM

It's not about culling! Its about killing a one of a kind majestic animal.

I used to live to hunt, but in November of 1982 I shot a deer and it didn't drop in its tracks, which they seldom do, so I tracked the blood trail and when I found it, it was lying down, unable to rise. As I approached it looked at me with those big brown eyes and I have never hunted since.
Anyone who calls me a "Poofta" is asking for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: olddude
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:58 PM

Well,   as someone that hunted and fished since I could walk. To me it is a sport and provided food (I admit I quit hunting and now fish more than ever since I was the only one eating the deer meat so I stopped. I don't kill anything that I don't use.   I wouldn't fish in a swimming pool filled with stocked trout. Nor do I like the idea of hunting on farm raised deer resort ranches as I call them like my doc buddie likes to hunt on.

If the animal was around a lot of people (since they all know of it I assume it was) Then it sure wasn't much of a sport. But if it was legal it was legal. I know of no real hunters that would hunt something half tame.

I never hunted bear, I ate plenty from folks who did and can't stand it so I never hunted them ... although I sure could have anytime.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Aaln Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 02:12 PM

'I never hunted bear'

So relieved!

Imagine saying to the kids, well we've eaten all of Bambi - shall I get Winnie the Pooh out the freezer, or Paddington..?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Slag
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM

Of course it about the law McGarth of Harlow. It's just that you are superimposing your own personal law on the hunter(s). You believe you have moral superiority and that your law should be obeyed and not the law of the land. That's the hallmark of the PC crowd and it is also why we must have uniform law and proceedures, to protect us from arrogant and self-righteous people who desire to dominate and trump everyone else with whatever they deem better.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: olddude
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:39 PM

By the way, Elk is probably the best tasting meat anywhere ... Amazing pot roast ...

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 06:16 PM

"Elk is probably the best tasting meat anywhere ... Amazing pot roast"

Great news. That's decided me...

I'll keep an elk chum in the hillsides,,,,

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: InOBU
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

It is all very well and good to condemn the fellow who had that bugger shot... but then again, you did not have to clean up after him. I bet you did not ask yourself, do I want to step in a giant pool of venison poo every time you go for a stroll in the great outdoors, eh?
It is a basic choice better the pooper scooper and the big head on the wall... Curb your stag Britain!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 08:06 PM

Kendall... been there and done it. It's heart wrenching. But it happens.

My bro was a marksman of note and took every deer I saw him shoot with one shot.... neck shot... immediate death on the spot... they never knew. BUT, one day, a buck jumped as he pulled and it took us two hours to take him down. When it was done, he said, "No more." I replied, "No more." And we did not.

I wouldn't say anything against anyone else hunting, but I would tell them they'd be better off with a camera or a videocam if they didn't need the meat. If I had carried same all my time in the woods I would be far richer for it. I've seen things in the woods very few people on earth have seen.... but all I can do is describe them... a shame really.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:56 PM

I still like venison but since I quit hunting I don't get much of it now.
We have had as many as 5 deer on the back lawn eating the feed I put out for them. Never could I shoot one. Same for the wild Turkeys I feed. If someone else wants to shoot them (NOT on my lawn) I have no quarrel with them. There are no big ones in the group.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Slag
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:52 PM

I live in deer central. They are the little coastal specie with a few oddballs thrown in. One lives under our deck and we can't get rid of her. She clave about every year. There are a lot of nice bucks around now that rut is on. If you get one to dress out at 150 you really have a prize! That's threoretically speaking, as I don't hunt them any more and have never hunted these in this area. What fun would that be. When I hunted it was usually up in the north-east corner of the state. They have big muleys up there and it was a chance to get out, camp, fish, climb rocks and scramble through the brush. It's about hunting, and not so much the shooting. The first buck I ever killed was a heart shot which stopped him sure enough but it wrecked a lot of meat. From then on it was neck shots or none. They drop like a sack of wet sand, dead before they hit the ground.

I have hunted with a few real nimrods who gut shot their animals. Once. I would never hunt again with someone so unsure of their skill with a rifle that they choose the largest target at 100 yards and are actually delighted that they hit anything. Brrrr.

When my son takes a deer he will sometimes bring a little venison by and we have a feast. so I haven't forgotten the taste. It's just a much rarer ocassion that it used to be.

I never cared for the turkeys and it's no challenge to take one here. They are everywhere. My son calls them land-carp and I have to agree with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: olddude
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 12:40 PM

Slag
The whitetail here are huge, surrounding by grape vineyards and corn fields and everything else they look like mule deer.   I couldn't believe it when I first moved here. Huge deer ... I sure took my share of them over the years all with a handgun. I live in a shotgun only part of the state but they allow handgun hunting also - no rifles. and well, since I am pretty darn good with a handgun the .44 mag worked really well. But alas after giving away all the meat and having my wife say what are you going to do with that!! I figured it was time to just fish. Now I just watch them.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM

From about Santa Barbara north, the Coast Ranges of California have the Columbian Black-tailed Deer.

They are relatively small and tame. I sayed over night in Big Basin State Park once and the deer would come very close to people. I never saw anyone try the feed them by hand but you probably could.

California has the greatest diversity of habitats of any US state in, therefore the greatest variety of deer species and sub-species in the country, but the northern coastal populations are essentially the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 02:19 PM

Never hand feed a deer. When you run out they can get pretty nasty.

Our Virginia white tailed deer are among the largest. I once was asked by a Newfie what a big one would way. I said anything over 250# was considered a good size. He said, "That'd make a big quarter a moose bye."

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:31 AM

I keep misreading this thread title as England's Biggest Shag...

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,8ft 11ins Stag with contacts and a laptop
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 02:07 PM

Guess who's the biggest stag now...

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 03:10 PM

"way"??? "weigh"... darn I hate that.