Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?

Sawzaw 26 Oct 10 - 11:12 AM
Stringsinger 26 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM
Little Hawk 26 Oct 10 - 12:35 PM
Sawzaw 26 Oct 10 - 12:42 PM
Little Hawk 26 Oct 10 - 12:48 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 26 Oct 10 - 01:03 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Oct 10 - 01:04 PM
Sawzaw 26 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM
bankley 26 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Oct 10 - 01:58 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 10 - 02:08 PM
Little Hawk 26 Oct 10 - 03:13 PM
Sawzaw 27 Oct 10 - 12:25 AM
Sawzaw 27 Oct 10 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 10 - 01:13 AM
Stilly River Sage 27 Oct 10 - 01:17 AM
Teribus 27 Oct 10 - 09:30 AM
Donuel 27 Oct 10 - 09:37 AM
Little Hawk 27 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM
Acorn4 27 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 10 - 12:19 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM
Sawzaw 27 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 10 - 01:42 PM
Sawzaw 27 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM
Sawzaw 27 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 10 - 02:21 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Oct 10 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 10 - 02:48 PM
akenaton 27 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 10 - 04:06 PM
akenaton 27 Oct 10 - 05:51 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 10 - 07:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Oct 10 - 07:43 PM
Bobert 27 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM
Sawzaw 27 Oct 10 - 10:31 PM
Bobert 27 Oct 10 - 10:58 PM
Bobert 27 Oct 10 - 11:18 PM
Teribus 28 Oct 10 - 12:51 AM
Sawzaw 28 Oct 10 - 01:16 AM
Bobert 28 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM
kendall 28 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM
Bobert 28 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Oct 10 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM
kendall 28 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM
Arthur_itus 28 Oct 10 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Oct 10 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,999 28 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM
Teribus 28 Oct 10 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Jon 28 Oct 10 - 06:09 PM
Bobert 28 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Oct 10 - 07:46 PM
Sawzaw 28 Oct 10 - 09:52 PM
Bobert 28 Oct 10 - 10:02 PM
Sawzaw 28 Oct 10 - 10:20 PM
Teribus 29 Oct 10 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,Jon 29 Oct 10 - 10:59 AM
kendall 29 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM
Sawzaw 29 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Oct 10 - 06:52 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Oct 10 - 07:15 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Oct 10 - 07:18 PM
Sawzaw 29 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM
Bobert 29 Oct 10 - 07:40 PM
gnu 29 Oct 10 - 07:51 PM
Teribus 30 Oct 10 - 02:34 AM
Bobert 30 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,999 30 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM
Bobert 30 Oct 10 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,999 30 Oct 10 - 10:07 AM
Richard Bridge 30 Oct 10 - 10:24 AM
Sawzaw 30 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM
Sawzaw 30 Oct 10 - 04:15 PM
Sawzaw 30 Oct 10 - 04:20 PM
kendall 30 Oct 10 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,josep 30 Oct 10 - 04:48 PM
Stringsinger 30 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Jon 30 Oct 10 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,josep 30 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Oct 10 - 08:31 PM
Teribus 31 Oct 10 - 09:37 AM
DougR 31 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM
Stringsinger 31 Oct 10 - 07:12 PM
Stringsinger 31 Oct 10 - 07:18 PM
Sawzaw 31 Oct 10 - 10:18 PM
Sawzaw 31 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM
Teribus 01 Nov 10 - 01:10 AM
Sawzaw 01 Nov 10 - 11:06 AM
Sawzaw 01 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 01 Nov 10 - 11:59 AM
Stringsinger 01 Nov 10 - 06:21 PM
Stringsinger 01 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM
Teribus 01 Nov 10 - 06:56 PM
Sawzaw 02 Nov 10 - 12:06 AM
Teribus 02 Nov 10 - 01:39 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:12 AM

After seeing that Karzai, hand picked by The USA to lead Afghanistan, is happy to say he is receiving "bags of money" from Iran, I am suddenly growing weary of the war in Afghanistan.

What is being accomplished? Either win the friggin' thing or get the hell out.

They are "negotiating" whith an enemy that will just lay low until they can re emerge and take over the country again.

The enemy must be wiped out with whatever it takes like cancer therapy.

You may find some where that I have defended the war or said it would not turn into another Vietnam. If I sad such a thing, I was wrong.

Seems to me like the US [and NATO] is going down the tubes while fighting a war for corrupt people that don't appreciate it at all, except for the money they make off of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM

From the looks of it, it may be worse. Wikileaks has done a great job.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:35 PM

"The enemy must be wiped out with whatever it takes like cancer therapy."

You're quite right about that, Sawzaw. The only trouble is...the real enemy is the foreign occupying forces fielded by the USA, Canada, the UK, etc....and their corrupt political surrogates in Kabul. That is the real enemy of the Afghan people...just like it was with the Russians and their corrupt surrogates in Kabul back in the 80s.

That war will be won when all the foreign occupying armies of the Allied Coalition are persuaded or forced to leave the sovereing territory of the nation they have invaded, and when their puppets like Karzai are gone from power in Kabul.

The enemy is us!!!! Not Al Queda. Not the Taliban. Not the Pashtuns. We are the enemy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:42 PM

SO LH votes for the Taliban?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:48 PM

Nope. I don't give a damn about the Taliban and I never did. I vote for the people of Aghanistan and the sovereignty of nations. You vote for imperialism in service to huge multinational oil companies and other corporate entities, but you just don't realize it, that's all. You think you're defending freedom. You're mistaken about that. The Taliban are temporary, and so is America's imperial adventure in the Middle East. It will end. So will the Taliban. Afghanistan will survive, however, as will the Afghan people, and the invaders will be driven out one day. Probably a day that isn't too far off...historically speaking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:03 PM

Yes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:04 PM

I don't remember US soil being attacked from Viet Nam. So the wars will never be the same. Afghanistan 2000's is not even another Afghanistan 1979-1989.

The reports I have heard are that Taliban Leaders are making statements that Foreign fighters will not be allowed in Afghanistan if a deal is made. If the North Viet Namese had made such a promise about the Chinese and USSR, could that war have been settled? We will never know.

A lot of problems people have with Obama's promises is that they expected the solutions to the problems to be instant and without consequence. I think that by 2012, Afghanistan will be as much a problem as Iraq is now. There will still be structural problems, but WE won't be responsible for them any more.

Obama didn't promise Jeffersonian democracy in either country. If that does not happen. Blame the guy who did.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

"I vote for the people of Aghanistan"

Do you think they would be better off without the Taliban?

Should we go back over the 55 gallon barrels of severed hands being hauled out of a deserted former soccer stadium which only used for public executions of women by machine gun and punishment by dismemberment?

Are the Taliban invaders?

The Taliban, (meaning "students") is a hanafi Islamist political group that governed Afghanistan from 1996 until it was overthrown in late 2001.

The Taliban movement is primarily made up of members belonging to ethnic Pashtun tribes, along with volunteers from nearby Islamic countries such as Uzbeks, Tajiks, Punjabis, Arabs, Chechens, and others. It operates in Afghanistan and Pakistan, mostly in provinces around the Durand Line border. U.S. officials say their headquarters is in or near Quetta, Pakistan, and that Pakistan and Iran provide support, though both nations deny this.

While in power, the Taliban enforced one of the strictest interpretations of Sharia law ever seen in the Muslim world, and became notorious internationally for their treatment of women. Women were forced to wear the burqa in public. They were allowed neither to work nor to be educated after the age of eight, and until then were permitted only to study the Qur'an. They were not allowed to be treated by male doctors unless accompanied by a male chaperon, which led to illnesses remaining untreated. They faced public flogging in the street, and public execution for violations of the Taliban's laws.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: bankley
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM

yes, as far as the abundance of heroin goes


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:58 PM

"Do you think they would be better off without the Taliban?"

No idea, but I do suspect that the rest of the world would be better off without the USA's attempts to 'help'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:08 PM

While the Taliban and their treatment of women and their destruction of ancient treasures were evil beyond description, those were matters of internal governance. An invasion might have been for the best of motives but would still have been an invasion.

The US "axis of evil" approach was probably never justifiable and accordingly the true motivation for the invasion was probably venal.

Holding the country once invaded was always likely to be as far beyond the USA as it had been beyond the British Empire and the might of the USSR at different times.

Stillness can only come in three ways.

First, the Irish solution: give up, go away, and hope that eventually "outgoing fire" of various kinds will end.

Second, kill every living thing: but people will move back and it will take a huge passage of time for "society" to evolve beyond local warlordry. This will only inflame other destabilising forces.

Third, kill every living thing and salt the soil (or use the modern equivalents or nuclear radiation (anthrax is too hard to contain)). This too will only inflame other destabilising forces.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:13 PM

Sawzaw, I think that Afghanistan would be way better off without both the Taliban AND the USA. The USA isn't in there to help Afghans, it's in there to help itself by expanding its imperial control over a vital strategic area that rests between 5 volatile powers: China, Russia, India, Pakistan, and Iran. The USA is there to dominate that piece of strategic real estate and ship oil through it from the Caspian region.

The Taliban weren't there to help Afghans either, they were in there to help themselves, but at least they mostly were Afghans!

When the coalition armies finally leave, which they will, there will shortly occur what always occurs in Afghanistan when a foreign occupier leaves: the different tribal factions there will start fighting each other to see who gets to run the show. The Pashtuns in the South will fight the other tribal groups in the north and the east, as has happened many times before, and it will be very nasty. Eventually someone will prevail and secure central power in Kabul. It may be the Taliban who prevails, it may be another group entirely. Whoever it is, they will set up a new Afghan government and their foes will continue fighting them sporadically from the more remote mountain areas, and life will go on in Afghanistan as it has in the past, but the vital thing is, it will go on without the presence of an invading foreign army from some other country.

The Russians and their surrogates were a curse on Afghanistan and had no business being there. The Americans and their surrogates are also a curse on Afghanistan and have no business being there. It isn't up to anyone else to determine how the Afghans should live, it's up to the Afghans.

I'm not on any Afghan faction's side in this. That's up to them to sort out. I want all foreign troops taken out of that country, period.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:25 AM

I don't hear anything logical reasons for leaving Afghanistan to the Taliban. I believe the Taliban are invaders.

"it's up to the Afghans." It will be up to the Taliban.

And just don't worry about the Taliban that is the main supplier of the Heroin which is rotting Europe. Tough shit Europe.


The Taliban control nearly 95% of the area under opium poppy cultivation. ... of about 80% of Europe's heroin market and 15% to 20% of North America's. ...
www.hazara.net/taliban/criminal_acts/drugs/drugs.html

Drugs for guns: how the Afghan heroin trade is fuelling the ...
Apr 29, 2008 ... The heroin flooding Britain's streets is threatening the lives of UK ... at factories inside Afghanistan, sold into Tajikistan and smuggled to Europe. ... "The heroin is what lets us fight," said the Taliban go-between

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/drugs-for-guns-how-the-afghan-heroin-trade-is-fuelling-the-taliban-insurgency-817230.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:34 AM

Hey Bruce, Tbus, Are you lurking?

Do you think Afghanistan has turned into a PC clusterfuck or what?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:13 AM

Afghanistan become another Vietnam?..You mean Obama is as good as Lyndon Johnson???
Just a thought......

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:17 AM

Yes. George Bush got us into another war that is like Vietnam. And it's not like he didn't have perfectly good examples to look at. The British had been there and failed, and the Russians more recently pulled out with their tails between their legs. Invading was a stupid thing to do.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:30 AM

Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam? - Short answer is no it has not, nor will it become another Vietnam.

"The USA is there to dominate that piece of strategic real estate and ship oil through it from the Caspian region."

Fatuous rubbish as there are already at least five pipelines in existence that export oil from the Caspian region to the west that do not run through war zones. Besides there were never any plans for an oil pipeline to cross Afghanistan in the first place, there are none on the table now.

People keep harping on about Karzai and his corrupt government. Casting around you will see that every single government in the region is corrupt, so why everyone insists on Karzai's being any different mystifies me, at least in comparison to the others Karzai's was at least elected. The former "Government" of Mullah Mohammad Omar's Taleban were not only thoroughly corrupt they were also amazingly incompetent.

Between April 1978 and October 2001 somewhere in the region of 2 million Afghans were killed which works out at an average daily death toll over the period of 248 people. Since October 2001 to the present some 34,000 Afghans have been killed which works out at 11 killed per day, out of which 8 are killed by the Taleban. The sole reason for the reduction in the average daily death toll is the presence of ISAF/US-OEF troops and the Afghan Security Forces. Since October 2001 there has been a force present inside Afghanistan tasked with the protection of the general population, they have reduced the scale of the slaughter by 96%.

Reconstruction work is underway throughout the country, and this work is producing jobs. The city of Kabul that lay in ruins in November 2001, with a population of only 250,000 is now largely rebuilt and the population has returned to its pre-1978 level of some 3.5 million.

The Taleban will never regain power for the same reason that the analogy with Vietnam won't work, there is no-one to play the part of the Russians, the Chinese or even the North-Vietnamese in Afghanistan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:37 AM

Remeber when we first learned to demonize the Taliban when you saw the video of a 2000 year old Budda statue being blown up?

It seems we now need to protect the Taliban or the 10 year mission in Afghani satan. Many of the elder Taliban have been killed recently so now we have to deal with 19 year old Taliban to establish safe passages, pay offs and truces.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

Sawzaw, the war is not really about the Taliban, just like it was not really about Al Queda (which barely even exists, except for American propaganda purposes). It's about the USA securing a very important piece of strategic territory which lies across very important passes that allow access to Russia, China, India, Pakistan, and Iran. Major empires have been fighting over that piece of land and trying to control it for thousands of years, but they have all failed to impose their will upon the indigenous people, the Aghans. The primary force opposing the USA is the Pashtuns, a tribal people who are the majority in southern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. They used to be known as "Pathans", and are famous for being good warriors. Some of them are Taliban, some are not.

The USA/UK/Canada is simply the latest imperial order to attempt to do this, and they will fail, as the Russians failed before them.

The Taliban are one among a number of factions that might succeed in dominating Afghanistan after the Allied Coalition leaves. There's no guarantee that the Taliban will be the winner in the struggle that follows, but someone in Afghanistan will be the winner.

As for the opium trade, it's basically the only way that most of the country people in Afghanistan can earn a living, so that's why they are doing it. They have always done it, and they will continue to do it. The Afghan forces that have allied themselves with the USA love dealing opium, so nothing is going to change much in that respect regardless of whether the USA stays or not. Opium will continue to be sold from Aghanistan. That is a fact of life.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM

the Duke of Wellington once said:- "Afghanistan is the easiest place in the world to get in to, but almost impossible to get out of".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:19 PM

Little Hawk: "As for the opium trade, it's basically the only way that most of the country people in Afghanistan can earn a living, so that's why they are doing it. They have always done it, and they will continue to do it. The Afghan forces that have allied themselves with the USA love dealing opium, so nothing is going to change much in that respect regardless of whether the USA stays or not. Opium will continue to be sold from Afghanistan. That is a fact of life."

Yo-Ho!!.....Oh how right you are!!!...Sounds like the 'Golden Triangle' revisited! BTW, another similarity, between the two, is early in the 60's, there was discovered massive oil reserves in.........................guess where?............ The Gulf of Tonkin!! ...........but if they ennoble the cause, they can sell the idea...and have..to both sides!.....Sorta reminds one of Central America in the 80's and Mexico, now........oh, those poor 'immigrants', let's leave the borders open for the poor things...just like V.P. (at the time) Bush, in the Reagan administration cleared the radar channels to allow coke to be flown into our airspace...in trade for the guns going down there!

I guess, for a lot of our 'liberal' friends, if you do enough dope, you're easier to dupe!!!....and pretend its 'all for a benevolent brotherhood of do-gooding'!

As for the folks on the right, if its wrapped in a patriotic fuzzy blanket, then it can certainly be 'justified'...and a 'great idea'!
...but all in all, it's all the same...just a different sales pitch, to whatever ill informed audience their playing to.

Peace/Love!!....... Great shit!..and where did you say this stuff came from?????......soon as we get wasted, let's go down to the protest rally!!....but for some reason, they don't take us seriously...

It's pretty laughable...if it wasn't so damn tragic!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM

Is there a message in there somewhere?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM

LH I totally disagree. The Us was not attacked by the people of Afghanistan. It was attacked by AQ. AQ was harbored and sheltered by the Taliban.

The Taliban moved in, Invaded, and filled the vacuum left when The US helped enabled them to drive off the invading Russians and then abandoned it, which was a mistake that we are now paying for. Much as pulling out now would abandon it and leave it to the Taliban again creating another mistake that we will have to pay for later.

Russia is complaining that the United States has not acted on information the top Russian anti-drug official provided about many narcotics laboratories in Afghanistan.

AP:

Victor Ivanov, the head of Russia's federal drug control agency, says he provided U.S. officials in Kabul months ago the coordinates of 175 laboratories where heroin is processed. He says U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency officials there have told him they are awaiting U.S. military approval to take down the labs.

"For some reason they are unable to carry out any operations to destroy these laboratories, because there is a delay from the military side," Ivanov told The Associated Press through an interpreter in an interview this week. Ivanov was in Washington for a meeting of a commission on drugs set up by the U.S. and Russian presidents to improve cooperation.

The DEA declined to comment except to say it does not confirm or deny information shared by other nations.

Russia has long complained that the U.S. and NATO refusal to implement poppy eradication programs in Afghanistan is contributing to a flood of Afghan heroin into Russia. U.S. officials have argued that destruction of poppy fields would drive Afghan farmers into the arms of the Taliban.

Russia claims that drug production in Afghanistan has increased exponentially since the U.S.-led invasion that overthrew the Taliban government in 2001. It says smugglers freely transport Afghan heroin and opium north into Central Asia and Russia and onward to Western Europe.

Ivanov has said that Russia alone has 2 million opium and heroin addicts.

NATO has urged Moscow to contribute to the war effort in Afghanistan by training more counternarcotics agents and providing helicopters to the Afghan government's air force.

Ivanov said he also has suggested going after the major landlords in Afghanistan's poppy-growing region by submitting their names to the United Nations for sanctions.

"It wouldn't be difficult to trace them," he said.

Ivanov said he discussed the issue with U.S. special envoy Richard Holbrooke and other officials Thursday, then left frustrated that they provided no evidence that poppy eradication would strengthen the Taliban.

"It sounded not like constructive discussion but a manifestation of stubbornness," he said. "I cannot say they are not listening. They are listening very carefully and attentively. But unfortunately, there are no results."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:42 PM

Richard Bridge: "Is there a message in there somewhere?"

Go back to sleep..you must have needed a longer nap!


GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM

Peaceniks like LH like being all comfy and cozy and well cared for by their Government who protects their freedom of speech.

Then they use their freedom of speech to bad mouth their government for being so mean.

How does this work out for the people of North Korea? Cuba? Venezuela, Iran?

Jail time if they are lucky.

Show me the government that you approve of. The government you would be satisfied with, if there is such a thing. A perfect Government?

I will take my Government over any in the world despite it's flaws.

But it needs to forget the PC bullshit and "win" in Afghanistan "the war that must be won" or get the hell out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM

Others were taken by force in the night, when heavily armed figures slunk into villages, demanding money and recruits. Some were even sold by their parents for 25,000 rupees (£180), the going rate paid by the TTP for a healthy teenager

How to defuse a human bomb: Rescuing the Taliban's teenage recruits
The Guardian, 16 October 2010

In Pakistan, young boys are being recruited as suicide bombers by the Taliban. Cathy Scott-Clark and Adrian Levy visit a new school that offers these brainwashed children a different future

The boy comes into view on the CCTV footage for just a few seconds, long enough to see that he is very young and wearing something bulky under his shalwar kameez. He walks purposefully through a crowd of worshippers gathering at Data Darbar Sufi shrine in Lahore, and then the screen is filled with a flash, followed by a juddering cloud of smoke. The blast settles to reveal a soundless world of body parts, shoes and clothes. The teenage suicide bomber killed himself and 45 others, and maimed 175 more, in this blast on 2 July 2010 – a good result for the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) that trained him, and another tragedy for Pakistan.

Abida Begum, a mother of six, living hundreds of miles away in the Swat Valley, in Pakistan's north-west, recalled seeing the footage on TV in the village shop and feeling nauseous. Every time she heard of a suicide blast, she immediately thought of Attaullah, her 14-year-old son, who had gone missing in February on his way to school. She suspected he had been abducted by the TTP which had seized control of Swat in 2008, transforming this erstwhile idyll of trout streams and ski slopes into a wasps' nest of blood-letting and terror. Hundreds of young boys from Abida's village of Kabal and those surrounding it had disappeared, pressed into the TTP's ranks, leaving once boisterous alleys and cart tracks deserted after dusk. The Pakistani army had launched an offensive to drive out the TTP in April 2009 – and even claimed victory at the end of last year – but the militants' influence was being felt once more, with the bullet-ridden bodies of those who crossed them turning up in local fields.

Many boys went voluntarily, lured by the swagger of the long-haired Islamic fighters. Others were taken by force in the night, when heavily armed figures slunk into villages, demanding money and recruits. Some were even sold by their parents for 25,000 rupees (£180), the going rate paid by the TTP for a healthy teenager.

The families of the missing boys always feared the worst. News filtered back that most were destined to become human bombs. Rumours spread that if the army caught them, they were summarily executed, a story that gained credibility last month when a mobile phone clip emerged in Swat showing soldiers killing six young blindfolded men by firing squad. The army claimed the footage was faked by the TTP, but the human cost of the teen recruits was undeniable. For three years, a legion of these "dumb bombs", as the locals called them, had terrorised the country, claiming 3,500 lives in 200 attacks.

The night of the Lahore blast, Abida went to bed imagining Attaullah, a knockabout kid who had loved his English classes best, coerced into a nylon jacket packed with explosives and flesh-ripping ball bearings. Days later, she heard an extraordinary story from a neighbour, this woman's son had vanished, too, but after more than a year he had, miraculously, come home.

Recruited by the TTP, the boy confirmed he had been locked into a programme to produce martyrs. However, before he could be utilised, the army had busted his training camp. Rather than killing everyone in it, the soldiers had taken several boys to their base at Malakand Pass, 30 miles south-east of Kabal, putting them in a kind of reform school along with dozens more young, would-be suicide bombers. They were fed, clothed, taught English and allowed to play volleyball and cricket. Respected religious scholars patiently explained how killing civilians was wrong according to the Qur'an. Psychologists counselled them. Some were eventually allowed back home.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:21 PM

This is one part of a 6 part series.
Sawzaw......Check this out



GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:25 PM

As time fleets by, the more proper question might well be, "Will Afghanistan become another Korea?".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:48 PM

John on the Sunset Coast: "....Will Afghanistan become another Korea?"

Nope. The reasons for being there and the agendas are too far different. After WWII, Americans had a greater sense of freedom, duty, and genuine empathy for the victims of oppression, and would fight to preserve a will for freedom.....Now, its all 'national security' based on what corporations are still here, and who can afford to 'buy' our military, to perform what needs to be done, to achieve their goals...then sell it to the American people. Shit, they even have their own private 'security forces' (read: paid thugs).

There was a greater sense of honor back then....though corruption was certainly a factor....but now, it's so shot to hell, I sincerely doubt if America will survive to see another generation, come and go.

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM

The similarity to Vietman will be in the endgame, in both Iraq and Afghanistan...... when America leaves its pawns to their fate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 04:06 PM

Hello Ake!!!! How ya' been a farin'?

I've been mostly off for a while....but glad to see you still have common sense!

Regards,
GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:51 PM

Hi Sanity...We've all missed ya!

Theres even been a thread started demandin'your return!   :0)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM

Soresore - a huge pile of irrelevancy and no train of thought from you (as usual).

The USA and the UK (etc) have no right to interfere in internal Afghani matters as such. It's a shame, but that's the state of play.

They do have a right to defend themselves against aggressors within Afghanistan targetting targets outside Afghanistan.

In pursuing that right they do not have the right to devastate the country or kill its people (other than such aggressors).

None of which addresses the OP's point - can the USA (and UK) get out without (a) getting massacred in the process or (b) leaving things worse than before or so that they will get worse than before?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:37 PM

Akenaton: "Theres even been a thread started demandin'your return!   :0)"


Really???...jeez, I must have 'missed' it!

I was doing some serious music stuff, and took a break from the forum, because the ideological rhetoric was beyond the realm of coherent!

Some idiots would have the country fail rather that acknowledge that without this country, and what it was founded on, they wouldn't have the rights or freedom to bath in the luxury of their stupid opinions, that are bent on removing those very freedoms!

Anyway, glad to hear from you!..and a hello, to all the Mudcatters!
I'll keep in mind to try to 'stimulate' whatever minds are out there, to write lyrics, that take in a wider range of thought!

This political shit is just that.....SHIT!...and destructive, at that!

Regards,

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:43 PM

I think Bridge has covered it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM

Let's get real here...

Both Iraq and Afganistan are current day Vietnams...

The only difference is that the US didn't have Vietnam as a model of what-not-to-do when Kennedy, then Johnson, escalated it... Yeah, they did have the French gettin' their asses kicked in '53 but, hey, thems was the French and not ***THE*** mighty US of A...

But Bush and the neocons had Vietnam as a model yet plowed into Afganistan and Iraq anyway...

Insanity: Repeating a behavior expecting different results...

But yeah... How do you spell quagmire???

And as much as the current crop of Repubs want to stick these wars on Obama, he didn't call 'um up so that dog don't hunt...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 10:31 PM

Yeah "Insanity: Repeating a behavior expecting different results..."

Driving out the Russian invaders, getting out and let the Taliban invade and take over.

Driving out the Taliban, leaving and letting the Taliban invade and take over.

"How do you spell quagmire???" Political Correctness.

"he didn't call 'um up so that dog don't hunt.." "

"I have always been for the war in Afghanistan" "the war that we have to win" But don't call him a war criminal just because he orders up drone strikes that kill innocent men women or children.

This is OK with Bobert:

The Obama administration has authorised [he didn't call 'um up, he just authorized 'um] 125 drone strikes so far, twice the number George Bush used in his last five years in power.
The Pashtun tribesmen have several nicknames for the drones that endlessly circle over their mud-walled mountain villages. Some call them "wasps" or "mosquitoes", after the low buzz emitted by the pilotless aircraft's small engines.

But the most telling name is "bangana", the Pashto word for a thunderclap, after the terrifying impact of a laser-guided Hellfire missile as it slams into a building, often obliterating everyone inside.

Since the CIA launched its first drone strike in Pakistan in June 2004, killing a young Taliban leader, such missile attacks have become an everyday event in North and South Waziristan, along the troubled Afghan border.

Predator and larger Reaper drones have killed up to 1,800 people, according to media estimates gathered by the New American Foundation, including at least two dozen senior al-Qaida operatives and hundreds of more junior militants.

But the drones also kill many civilians, the exact toll is hotly contested and debate rages, in Pakistan and abroad, about whether they ultimately quell militancy or encourage it.

Washington has few doubts. So far Barack Obama has signed off on over 125 strikes, twice the number authorised by George Bush during the last five years of his presidency. Manufacturers are scrambling to keep up with demand from the CIA.
[stimulus spending]

In the latest attack yesterday, a missile hit a vehicle near Mir Ali, a notorious militant hub in North Waziristan. The identity of those killed was not known.

Pakistanis are distinctly less enthusiastic about the strikes. One US-funded survey of 1,000 tribal residents last summer found that more than three-quarters of people oppose the drone strikes. Only 16% think the strikes accurately target militants while 48% think they mostly kill civilians.

There is evidence the drones exact a heavy psychological strain. Pharmacists report high sales of sedatives and anti-depressants among tribesmen.

Equally serious is the impact on broader Pakistani opinion. Public fury about the drone strikes stoke anti-Americanism in a country where, according to one survey last summer, 60% of people see the US as an enemy.
[Obama miraculously repairs America's image abroad]

Drone attacks in Pakistan's tribal belt are controlled by the CIA – the US military runs a separate programme, although the two sometimes cooperate. The unmanned aircraft lift off from a remote desert airstrip in western Balochistan province but are operated by operators sitting behind video terminals at CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

Targets are identified using electronic surveillance and human informers operating inside the tribal belt. Bob Woodward's recent book alleges that the CIA pays 3,000 Afghans to help hunt militants in Pakistan.
[job creation]

Intelligence officials say many of those paid by the CIA work as target "spotters" in Waziristan; those caught by militants are usually beheaded.
[health care cost reduction]

bangana, bangana
bangana ees goood enuf for meee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 10:58 PM

Easy to criticize tactics, ain't it, Sawz???

So what is yer plan 'er the Repub's plan??? Continue a conventional war and get alot of our kids killed and still no "victroy" at the end??? Fight smarter (drones)??? Quit???

Ain't a lot of options here and none of them is going to go down too well on the heels of trying to get out of Bush's other mess, Iraq...

So, yeah, Sawz... Be real glad to hear yer plan... In yer own words, thankee... And two or three paragraphs should do fine... I mean, easy to play armchair quarterback and watching the replays and tellin' the QB to throw to the H-Back... Quite another to be that QB...

So what's the plan, Sawz???

Ake???

bb???

Anyone else???

I mean, we are fucked no matter... We have messed up so bad that there ain't no real exit strategy that's gonna be all that much fun...

Plans???

(Maybe they have "secret plans", Bobert??? You know, just like Nixon said he had during the '68 election campaign...)

Well, yeah... That plan sho nuff secret... So secret that Nixon hisseff didn't even know it??? Now that is, ahhhhh, secret...

So, ya'll Obama haters, what's yer plan??? What, cat got ya'lls tounge???

Square business...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:18 PM

Nevrmind, Sawz...

Just read on the other thread that yer plan is the John Wayne plan... Fine... You want in on it??? I got some contacts that might be able to arrange fir you and a few of yer buds to be on that front line that is gonna do better than our kids are doing now in Afganistan...

(But, Boberdz... Our kids are doing great... It's the leaders who won't let them go out and fight!!!)

Where the hell did you come up with that idea???

(Fox...)

That explains alot...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:51 AM

"The USA and the UK (etc) have no right to interfere in internal Afghani matters as such."

In what way are the USA and the UK interfering in Afghanistan's internal affairs? Do you deny that the "rulers" of Afghanistan came to an agreement with the United Nations (See Bonn Agreement 5th December 2001)? Do you deny the role of the United Nations in Afghanistan, the other 41 countries involved, the existence of UNAMA or ISAF?

"None of which addresses the OP's point - can the USA (and UK) get out without (a) getting massacred in the process or (b) leaving things worse than before or so that they will get worse than before?"

(a) - There are no massacres taking place after the same time in Afghanistan the Soviets had lost 15,031 killed. ISAF/US-OEF have lost just under 2,000 killed

(b) - Considering what was happening in Afghanistan before October 2001 under Taliban rule it is impossible for things to get worse, although the scale of the disaster if the participating UN member states cut and run as many advocate would be worse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:16 AM

Easy to criticize tactics, ain't it, Bobert???

Course you gotta have something to criticize first.

It should be perused like a conventional war instead of a PC war.

Of course you can throw out a plan for us. Can't you?

You do have the $2.95 documentation about the bad gas don't you?

Would you rather have a John Wayne war or a Pee Wee Herman war?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM

Bottom line??? Neither, Swaz...

As for the bad gas??? Refresh my memory... I don't know what you are talking about...

As for your John Wayne war strategy??? It failed miseably in Vietnam and inspite of alot of folks clinging to the mythology that we just didn't do all we could do to win it another 10 years wouldn't have changed anything except the lenght of the wall at the Vietnam War Memorial...

That's where we'd be if we took yer advice and turned the Afganistan war into some John Wane movie... You need to bring down yer expectaions based on reality... Reality is that when the US goes into a village they don't know who is Taliban and who isn't... Sound familar??? I mean, the Viet Cong were the same... Who knows???

Maybe your p[lan is to just nuke the entire country and put a flag down in the middle of it, I donno... I do know that the strategy that you have put forth ios not at all realistic...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM

Fact. Afghanistan did not attack us.
Fact. Iraq did not attack us.
Fact. we invaded Iraq in 1991 and that is why they hate us. It has nothing to do with our freedom.
We were attacked by a gang of extremists who are fed up with the way we have treated Muslims for centuries. That gang was mostly Saudis. Why didn't the moron invade Saudi Arabia?

We need to get the hell out of other people's business. We are bleeding to death over there. 1.1 trillion dollars and counting.

This country could be a paradise on earth if we could stop invading other countries. It is our arrogance that makes us universally hated, and if you don't think so, travel and ask. They don't hate us individually but they do hate what our government is doing. In that, I agree with them.
John Wayne was a second rate actor who never spoke a word that wasn't written down by someone else.
He never served in the military and was not a hero.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

Well said, Capt'n....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:44 PM

kendall: "Fact. Afghanistan did not attack us.
Fact. Iraq did not attack us.
Fact. we invaded Iraq in 1991 and that is why they hate us. It has nothing to do with our freedom.
We were attacked by a gang of extremists who are fed up with the way we have treated Muslims for centuries. That gang was mostly Saudis. Why didn't the moron invade Saudi Arabia?"

Are you saying WE have treated Muslims unjustly for centuries???
OR
We should have attacked Saudi Arabia??????

Kendall, Pardon me, but, You are not making sense!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM

Pardon me, my mistake....we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, because Saudi Arabia wanted us to attack Iraq, and Afghanistan....and we 'owe' them. Just ask the Bushes, and follow the money trail on campaign donations!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

I think I was quite clear, but for you I will say it this way. No we should not have invaded Saudi Arabia, and we should not have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan either.
What those people did was a criminal act, by a handful of extremists, not a country.So it was not an act of war.

Let's go back to the Crusades when King Richard had 150,000 Muslims and Jews butchered. That's a good place to start the hatred. Yes, I know we were not involved with the Crusades but we claim to be a Christian nation and I'm sure they hate us for that too.Plus, we support their worst enemy, Israel. Any fool can understand why they hate us.

I still say if we stop bombing women and children over there and start minding our own business it would lower the temperature.
They hate us and we have given them reason to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM

Funny, the post eater has been at it again.

Teribus points to "the Bonn Agreement of the 5th December 2001". The US Afghan invasion started months before that. I'd call that interference.

There is no realistic way to question that the Afghanistan "government" is a US puppet. I'd call that interference.

Come on "Bomber Harris". Tell us. Are the US going to "win the war" and if so how? Local resistance is a hydra. Every Taliban member killed ensures two more. Every non-Taliban-member killed ensures ten more. If the US don't win, how are they going to get out without being massacred on the ground? If Pakistan blockades the ingoing passes how will the US get in enough fuel and ordnance even to defend themselves? When the US leave how is what is left going to be better?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:03 PM

It's another Vietnam. Let's get the fuck out and leave them in peace to live however they want to live.

In the Uk we have more pressing issues.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:35 PM

kedall: "...Yes, I know we were not involved with the Crusades but we claim to be a Christian nation and I'm sure they hate us for that too.Plus, we support their worst enemy, Israel. Any fool can understand why they hate us...."

Too bad they can't get along with Israel. That is their own bullshit. They need to work that out!

So, would you say that it was their 'mistake' to a aggressors, toward the U.S.?....and if so, what would you think should be our response?

Was the USS Cole a miscalculated 'mistake'? The embassy bombing?
And how about the counties housing and financing them?...a 'mistake'?

Don't get me wrong, I despise war as much as any of you...and I also look at the ideologies that favor war, to achieve their agendas,..including OURS!

The problem is, if we are going to defend ourselves, which we have the right to do, let's not use that 'opportunity' to bilk our country out of billions of dollars and waste lives, on both sides, for profit. In this manner, Vietnam and the Middle East are similar, because of the profiteering and the accommodations made for it!

By the way, it is those same accommodations that the U.S. will NOT secure our southern border.....money drugs and arms sales...NOT pity the poor immigrants!!!! Somebody, here on this side, is making a lot of bread, screwing us over, and selling us another line of bullshit.
30,000 Mexican nationals have been murdered by the Mexican drug cartels (as reported last night), THIS YEAR ALONE!!!...and we do nothing, but accommodate them. Don't you think some Washington politicians are lining their pockets, while holding up securing our borders?...and interfering with the people of Arizona, who actually want to do something about it?? Doesn't the people of Arizona have a Constitutional Right to defend themselves against a foreign power invading them, while our own government allows it, for the sake of drug profits????...or is that just a 'mistake' by some drug dealers, without the help from BOTH CORRUPT governments???

This may get even nastier, and instead of our government taking action against the perpetrators of this activity, they will turn against its own citizens, to facilitate every dime they can make off it!...and it's on BOTH sides of the aisle!

....and I'm right about this one, too..though some idiot-logue will get all nasty with me about it, citing 'humanitarian' reasons...and looking the other way, while 30,000+ more people are murdered!!

But, thank you for clarifying.

Respectfully,

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM

`Hey Bruce, Tbus, Are you lurking?

Do you think Afghanistan has turned into a PC clusterfuck or what?`

If I`m the Bruce you mean, I think Afghanistan has been a cluster fuck since day one. If the mission is a stabilized country, it`s a failed mission. The war there has been a very defensive one on the part of NATO troops. To quote Sgt Barnes in the movie, `Platoon`, `You can`t expect to fight a war with one hand tied around your balls.`

It has become increasingly murky in that country. No one is winning, except maybe the Grim Reaper. My recollection is that Canada ended up there--to the tune of 2,500 troops--because the US needed to get some troops into Iraq, rfn, and as a sop to Bush (I often thought that if Bush ever stopped short, Harper would be stopped from doom only by his shoulders) because we`d incurred Bush`s wrath over not becoming a member of the ridiculous Coalition of the Willing.

That said,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:46 PM

Care to let us all in on the secret of how the United States of America managed to invade a country two and a half times the size of France and a population of 32 million people with less than 500 men? Neat trick that, why didn't they do that in 1944 on D-Day, think of the lives that would have been saved.

Fact is of course that there was never any US invasion of Afghanistan. All the US did was to provide assistance to the Northern Alliance (who were the last internationally recognised Government of Afghansitan) in their fight against the Taleban.

From 1996 there is absolutely no doubt at all that Al-Qaeda were based and given protection from the Taleban in Afghanistan. It was from inside Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden issued his fatwas of 1996 and 1998 (In the first he stated that it was every true believers duty to kill any American - man, woman or child - at every opportunity in any part of the world wherever they were encountered, basically he declared "open season" on an entire nation. The second fatwa in 1998 was a declaration of war on the "West")

From inside their safe Haven in Afghanistan the attacks on the Khobar Towers, the US Embassy in Nairobi, the US Embassy in Dar-es-Salaam, the USS Cole and 9/11 we organised and planned.

"There is no realistic way to question that the Afghanistan "government" is a US puppet. I'd call that interference."

Now when the Soviets entered Afghanistan with their 40th Army of 154,00 men (That was an invasion Richard) they murdered the Communist Government in power and supplanted that Government with one of their own choosing - that is a real puppet Government and that is real interference.

Now what happened in 2001? Afghan delegation arrives in Germany and meets with representatives from the United Nations - TRUE? They did not meet with any US Government Representatives or any UK Government Representatives, they met the United Nations.

At that conference the Afghan Delegation put forward the nominees that would form the Interim Government. Note Richard the Afghan Delegates tabled those names, not the UN, not the USA, not the UK.

The list of nominees presented by the Afghan Delegates were to be subject to selection and approval by a Loya Jirga (A traditional tribal gathering of Afghan leaders) to be held in Kabul in 2002. Please note Richard final selection and approval for those candidates was not undertaken by anybody from the UN, the USA or the UK.

Summer 2002 the Interim Government is formed subsequent to that there were elections in 2004 and 2009. A Constitution was approved by a referendum.

OK Richard you tell me where in that process the USA steered the process? Show me where they influenced anything.

"Every Taliban member killed ensures two more. Every non-Taliban-member killed ensures ten more"

Really? Who came out with that crock, because that is not borne out by what is happening out in Afghanistan. As the Taleban and their allies (Hekmatyar & Haqqani) are killing 80% of all civilians in Afghanistan does that mean that whenever they kill somebody ten people join the Afghan Security Forces to fight the Taleban?

"If the US don't win, how are they going to get out without being massacred on the ground?"

Now with all the Taleban that have been killed their numbers "hydra-like" should have doubled many times over and since October 2001 have US-OEF forces, ISAF troops or Afghan Security Forces been massacred? No they have not. Take the UK losses as an example in nine years we have lost 341 men - NINE YEARS. In the 90 days preceding the 1st October ISAF & ANSF carried out over 2,800 offensive operations against the Taleban in those operation 395 Taleban leaders were killed, 1,300 Taleban "foot soldiers" were killed and 1,335 were captured.

In 2006 the Taleban at their strongest could not defeat or drive out 3,300 ISAF troops in Helmand. Today the Taleban are faced with 30,500 ISAF troops plus 15,000 ANSF personnel. If they could not do the job in 2006, care to enlighten us as to how they will manage it now?

About three weeks ago the Pro-Government Forces started their offensive down in Kandahar. Heard anything about it? Had there been massive ISAF casualties the BBC would sure as hell have reported it as would the Guardian. This is the place where earlier in the year when the intention to carry out this offensive was announced the Taleban stated that they would do the massacring - hasn't happened Richard. Why? Because the young Pakistani boys that Mullah Omar sent over the border were told to F**K-Off by the locals and they ran.

"If Pakistan blockades the ingoing passes how will the US get in enough fuel and ordnance even to defend themselves?"

If the Pakistani Government attempted to do that then the USA would cut off all aid to Pakistan and to Pakistan's military. There would immediately be a military coup to overthrow the Government and the lines of supply would be re-opened.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:09 PM

Become? Think it's been for a good while now.

Like a couple of other commentators in this thread, I may think the Taliban has strange ideas, may not agree with Al Queda, etc. but I think we (I am UK, another might be US) without clue created a horrible (literally) bloody mess.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM

There is a reason why the US cannot be a broker of peace between the Palistinians and the Isrealis and it's because the US has lost all credibility since 9/11 when we had the best opportunity in my life time to be a global role model in showing the world that we are a world of international law but...

...we didn't have the leadership who had the wiring to take the world further toward being a civilized place and thus went to the 20th century default position: war and more war???

It really sad to think how badly the Bush administration bungled this opportunity... I mean, we had almost the entire planet on our side after 9/11, Muslims included...

Bush blew it big time...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:46 PM

Akenaton: "Hi Sanity...We've all missed ya!
Theres even been a thread started demandin'your return!   :0)"

Are you sure it wasn't a lynch mob????

Wink.... and Regards,

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:52 PM

Bobert's latest play to avoid having to back up his "facts". Amnesia.

Or maybe Alzheimers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:02 PM

As per usual, Sawz... Fuck off... I am terribly bored with yer obsession with me...

(((yawn)))

BTW, we can talk current events any time ya' like if ya wake up one day and discover that you have some interest in them...

Until then, like I said, "Fuck off"...

...and don't let the bed bugs bite...

B~)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:20 PM

HMMMMMMM Bobert passes off his counterfeit "facts" then he folds up his tent and leaves town before he has to give a refund.

No Brag, Just fact.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:24 AM

"I may think the Taliban has strange ideas, may not agree with Al Queda, etc. but I think we (I am UK, another might be US) without clue created a horrible (literally) bloody mess."

Between April 1978 and October 2001 somewhere between 1.5 and 2.1 million Afghans were killed in fighting Afghans/Soviets/Afghans. The country was in ruins, three-quarters of the people were malnurished, Afghanistan's sgricultural base was destroyed and one third of the total population were either dead or living in refugee camps. Kabul resembled Berlin in May 1945 and its population had shrunk to 250,000.

Since October 2001 there have been armed forces operating inside Afghanistan tasked with protecting the general population as opposed to preying on them. Since October 2001 to the present the number of Afghan civilians killed in violence has been around 34,000 - That is a reduction in the death toll amongst the civilian population of 96%

Don't know about you but if I were an Afghan civilian I would tend to think that rather than creating a "bloody mess" things were moving markedly in the right direction.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:59 AM

Afghans were killed in fighting Afghans/Soviets/Afghans.

Just Afghans and Soviets with no other interests?
-----

Don't know about you but if I were an Afghan civilian

I'd probably like to feel and be Afghan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM

England decided to not get involved in our Civil war, and we should do the same in the Middle East.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM

Al Gore:

"I argued at the time and would now go back to argue for intervention in the tragedy of Bosnia earlier than we did, and speedier action in Rwanda as well, because I think that the capacity of the United States for moral leadership in the world can not be underestimated."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:52 PM

Sawzaw: "....I think that the capacity of the United States for moral leadership in the world can not be underestimated...."--Al Gore

Rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off!...especially coming from Al Gore!!!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:15 PM

Teri - FFS! So why are the Afghans killing the US UK etc forces? Can you not see that they regard them as invaders? How are you going to win the war and when? And what is going to happen when you withdraw? Can you not see that all your pride in military force and alleged noble assistance and advice to the allegedly legitimate government (funny, does that sound like Vietnam?) does not offer an endgame?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:18 PM

A random quote off the net: -

"
A total of 2,170 Nato soldiers have been killed since the 2001 US-led invasion of Afghanistan which overthrew the Taliban government, including almost 1,350 US troops."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM

Does anybody believe America done good in Bosnia?

I think so although those Muslim assholes have never thanked anybody for getting the Serbs off their ass.

Was LH flopping all around with feathers flying and squawking war is so bayud we just can't have this so stop this instant or I will stomp my little feets so hard that you are going to be sooorrry. I mean it too mr mean man.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:40 PM

Well, seems we are at the same impass as we found ourselves in in the early 70s... The "secret plan" was so secret that Nixon forgot what it was... We had lost the "hearts and minds" war... We had lost the support of the world community... Yeah, we're facing the same dreaded options and none of them include anything that can be defined as a "victory"...

Saws think if we just start shooting the joint up that will win US a victory... Problem is that, like Vietnam, if we can't creat a stable environment for the general population and win their "hearts and minds" that we can not win... Taking the fight to a greater degree, a la John Wayne, will just produce more civilian casualties and make that "heart and minds" thing even harder to achieve...

So...

...getting the heck out seems to be the only realistic option here...

I mean, there are lots of Afgans who remember the Taliban days as the "good old day" because the Taliban knew how to maintain some level of order...

This doesn't mean that I support the Taliban or the ways that they maintain order... I just means that I accept the reality that the US was fucked from the very beginning in Afganistan, just as it was in Iarq... Bad ideas generally end up with bad endings...

Too bad that Obma has to be the one to order up the bad endings but, hey, when you come into office you take the crap that wwas left for you and, yeah, I'm sure that has hurt him... I mean, the Repubs here have already tried rewriting history to make Afganistan "Obama's War"... Reality has taken a backseat to mytholgy but that just politics...

Time to get the heck out...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:51 PM

It's only about battle training troops and field testing weapons. Stevie boy don't give two shits from Sunday about the Taliban ner nuthin else. That there sumbitch can't even keep subversive trash from landin on our shores and becomin Canuck citizens sos they can continue their bullshit. Ask me, I think it's a money makin scam and those whose fingers are dirty are sniffin fer more.

And, I don't just mean them there boat people... I mean that fuckin trash what just pleaded guilty to killin a Yank soldier... far as I am concerned, his old man shoulda NEVER been allowed into Canada in the first place. Woulda NEVER happened under the old CITIZENSHIP laws. But, under the new combined immigration and citizenship CRAP, that piece of shit is allowed to be here and foster his HATE by using his own son.... I better shut up.

Oh well... lots of lawyers made lots of money.

The boat people... $22M for the laywers so far. And a lot for that little prick in "The Bay". His lawyer said he was "theatened" with being gang raped to death by large black men in a US prison on the last day of the trial? I hope he doesn't die... right away.

I think reality escapes us when politicians kill people a half a world away for no just reason but fail to protect us at home.

I am just sayin, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 02:34 AM

"So why are the Afghans killing the US UK etc forces?"

Are "The Afghans" killing US, UK, etc forces? The vast majority of "The Afghans" are not and are not only quite happy to see us there but do not want us to leave just yet.

"Can you not see that they regard them as invaders?"

That is odd because the majority (85%) of "The Afghans" see the Taleban as the greatest threat to their nation, and most certainly do not want to see them back in power, or back capable of challenging for power by force of arms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

What dart board did you get the 85% from, T-Bird??? Or did you just pick that number out of a hat???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

I would note during this somewhat peaceful interlude that Teribus has consistently shown himself to be one of the more informed folks on this forum. He has good reason to know about the Afghan war, my word on that.
I disagree with many of his views, but I do like the person behind the post. No offense meant to anyone, and certainly not you, Bobert.

I ain`t gonna break into a chorus of `Get Together`, but it`s sure a pain to see people I admire despite their political differences spend time fighting each other. Mini wars don`t solve much. IMO.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:05 AM

Hey, I like T-Bird, too... He is informed about lots of stuff... We just don't share the same world view... I mean, he looks for reasons to fight wars and I look for alternatives to not fight them...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:07 AM

Bobert, you are my favourite miserable old fart on Mudcat. Wouldn`t change you for the world. Keep well, buddy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:24 AM

It doesn't stack up. 85/15. See what I mean?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM

"Well, seems we are at the same impass as we found ourselves in in the early 70s... The "secret plan" was so secret that Nixon forgot what it was..."

Let a Democrat start a war that nobody in congress knows about much less voted on, Another Dem continues and it ends up in the lap of a Repub and suddenly it is the Republican's war.

Flip side.

When a Republican starts a war that the Democrats vote for and a Dem takes it over, miraculously it is still the Repubs war.

Just like magic ain't it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:15 PM

"gang raped to death by large black men in a US prison"

I just had a thought. Remember the French Foreign Legion?

Let's offer these convicts years of military duty in Afghanistan in lieu of years in prison. Eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:20 PM

"What dart board did you get the 85% from, T-Bird??? Or did you just pick that number out of a hat???"

Yeah T, how dare you present Judge Bobert with an undocumented Fact?

For Shame.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:28 PM

Saw Zaw what war did a democrat start?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:48 PM

The idea that the Afghans deserve to rule themselves is laughable as anybody who goes to the Middle East for any appreciable length of time learns. It isn't really a country, it is a conglomeration of armies which are each a conglomeration of tribes and they all advertize for some outside force to finance and equip them so that they can blow the others away. As for corrupt govts, it is also laughable that the US is responsible for that. No matter what govt is established there and no matter who sets that govt up, it will be corrupt. It is impossible for there to be anything but a corrupt govt in Afghanistan just as it is impossible to rule Iraq democratically.

We keep insisting that these are rational people who want the same things in life we want. BUNK!! I don't know what it is they really want in life but I know this: It is NOT the same things we want. They look upon us with the deepest of contempt and could care less about us--we are less than nothing to them. If we all died today, they would dance in the streets and it has nothing to do with our meddling over there. That's what people like Little Hawk don't understand. "Oh, if we only treated them fairly, none of this would be happening." Yes, it would. You don't know what kind of people we're dealing with over there.

They are not rational and they have no concept of fairness. Corruption is a norm and an entitlement and pacificism is a contemptible weakness that they will take as an opportunity to exploit and destroy the people who practice it. This idea that they only want normal lives and peace is ridiculous. They do not. That is why they don't have it. No need to make it harder than it is.

I'm not saying that it's ok to do anything we want to over there only that this idea that we are somehow the Great Satan destroying their idyllic lives is an utter absurdity. Go there and you will see for yourself who is destroying their lives: THEM!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM

Afghanistan is worse than Vietnam. It's a longer war and even more futile exercise of domination and power.

Josep, from your rant and tirade I would advocate that you know even less about the Afghan people. I would much more respect the word of Jeremy Scahill who has reported on them.

The reason that the Afghan people have no peace in their country is because the U.S. has mistakenly invaded them and slaughtered men, women and children who were innocent civilians. I'm so glad that Wikileaks has revealed the true nature of the Afghanistan debacle.

The Afghan people were able to rule themselves perfectly well before the US decided to "nation build" and conquer them. Their society is longer than America or England.
To say that they "have no concept of fairness" is a prejudiced piece of right-wing nut-job
chauvinism that shows little compassion for an oppressed people.

Josep, I don't know where you're coming from but your statements about Afghanistan can be easily discredited.

BTW when you say they look upon "us" with contempt, who are you talking about,
Kimosabe?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:13 PM

The idea that the Afghans deserve to rule themselves is laughable

Not sure I read that....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM

Look, I don't care enough about this to argue it. I don't really care if the US stays there or not. It won't make any difference. The problems will still be there just as they were there before the US went there and just as they will be there when the US leaves.

No sane, rational people allow a group as the Taliban to take over their country.

And if you think the US leaving is going to solve their problems, well then by all means, let's leave.

That's all I have to say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:31 PM

gnu: "I think reality escapes us when politicians kill people a half a world away for no just reason but fail to protect us at home."

Ditto!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:37 AM

"The reason that the Afghan people have no peace in their country is because the U.S. has mistakenly invaded them and slaughtered men, women and children who were innocent civilians."

This mention of the "supposed" US invasion puts the date of this sometime between October and December 2001. If what existed in Afghansitan prior to October 2001 is Stringsinger's idea of what a peaceful country is then he obviously does not have the foggiest notion of what he is talking about.

Prior to October 2001 for a period of 23 years these innocent civilians that Stringsinger is obviously so concerned about were being killed at an average rate of 248 per day. Since October 2001 that rate has been reduced by 96% to 11 per day, out of which 8 are killed by the Taleban - In short Stringsinger you are talking a load of ill-informed bollocks.

"The Afghan people were able to rule themselves perfectly well before the US decided to "nation build" and conquer them."

Quite correct the Afghan people did live in a functioning secular parliamentary democracy prior to April 1978, so there is no question about "democracy" being a foreign "import" from 1929 Afghanistan has modelled itself upon Kemal Attaturk's Turkish State - nothing whatsoever is being "imposed" upon them.

The date mentioned above marked the end of parliamentary democracy in Afghanistan and that end was brought about in a markedly bloody coup staged by the Khalq faction of the Afghan Communist PDPA - nothing to do with the US at all.

"The US decided to conquer Afghanistan and nation build" Stringsinger?? When? I can refer you to meetings held between the Afghan leaders and representatives of the United Nations who long before 9/11 had declared Afghanistan a "Failed State". The "Reconstruction" effort ongoing in Afghanistan today is a United Nations programme being undertaken by UNAMA and by ISAF - clearly documented fact.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM

Not yet, but it may be heading that way.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:12 PM

Teribus, your facts are skewed.    You don't have the necessary information if you believe the baloney that the rate has been reduced by 96% to 11 per day. What is your source of information? (As if I didn't know). I prefer what Dahr Jamail and Jeremy Scahill have to say over this epistle of your misinformation.

Bush certainly decided to nation-build in Afghanistan through his military agenda and other dubious alliances such as with the corrupt Karzai. The "Reconstruction" program going on in Afghanistan today is a sham. That is also a clearly documented fact as revealed by Wikileaks.17 billion dollars of US taxpayer dollars slated for reconstruction has been lost and unaccounted for.

The ISAF was created to secure Kabul and is part of the NATO lead operation there which is principally in thrall to the U.S. wartime policy. The United Nations Security Council is one branch of the UN that is often pressured by U.S. war hawks. This is the only reason that Afghanistan might have been declared a "failed state".

It is however now a failed state thanks to U.S. involvement in the region.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:18 PM

Remember Teribus, you haven't addressed the atrocities committed by Blackwater and other mercenary security firms. Also, the misinformation regarding the body count of innocent civilians at the hands of JSOC is fortunately being brought to life by Wikileaks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:18 PM

Saw Zaw what war did a democrat start?

After doing some research. Eisehhower had the first involvement in Vietnam. However Johnson made the war an official hot war with the fabricated Gulf Of Tonkin incident. Kennedy wisely wanted to pull out.

The "Vietnam War", which was a civil war was well underway before the US had any involvement, Kennedy sent additional American 'advisors' for a total of 16.200 (an increase of 4.000) from IKE's build-up after taking over from the defeated French expedition, to help the South Vietnamese. On Oct 6 1963 he signed an executive (NSAM 263) National Security Action Memorandum) report that provided for the removal of 1000 troops in December 1963 and the vast majority of troops were to be out by 1965. He strongly felt that this was a no win scenario, and that the Vietnamese people were not behind the corrupt government of South Viet-Nam . After JFK was killed, LBJ countermanded that order with NSAM 273, and increased the number of troops dramatically, eventually to 500.000 within 2 years, eventually resulting in the deaths of 58.000 American soldiers throughout the Johnson and Nixon presidencies. These soldiers died in vain, and tore the USA apart with civil strife and eventually culminated with the loss of American's trust in government with the final insult of the "Watergate travesty" which had ties all the way back to that dark day in Dallas on November 22, 1963, when America lost it's last independent leader, before the corporate military industrial take-over. JFK had warned us all . And we did not listen.. Now that's the way it was.

1953 - The French grant Laos independence; Vietnam soon invades Laos.

1954 - Battle of Dienbienphu occurs where 40 thousand Vietnamese attack French posts; the French subsequently lose. The Geneva Convention end hostilities, the 17th parallel divides north and south Vietnam. SEATO is created.

1956 - The French leave Vietnam for good. Sen. John F. Kennedy says "Vietnam represents the cornerstone of the free world in southeast Asia."

1957 - American special forces begin training South Vietnamese; terrorist attack wound 13 Americans.

1959 - Ho Chi Minh Trail is built creating a major thoroughfare for the communists in North Vietnam; Diem of South Vietnam cracks down on dissidents.

1960 - Universal conscription in North Vietnam commences; Kennedy defeats V.P. Nixon; the Vietcong forms (National Liberation Front).

1963 - After the North Vietnamese defeat the South Vietnamese in yet another confrontation, Kennedy tells the press in July "We don't have a prayer of staying over there, but I can't give up a piece of territory like that to the Communists and get the American people to re-elect me." the United States informally commits to defend South Vietnam… John F. Kennedy is assassinated… Lyndon B. Johnson assumes the presidency.

1964 - The Gulf of Tonkin incident officially pushes the U.S. into conflict in Indochina… LBJ soundly re-elected. U.S. has 23 thousand troops in Vietnam by the end of the year.


1965 - Operation Rolling Thunder begins three years of continuous bombings.

1966 - B-52s are first used in Vietnam; Johnson visits South Vietnam; veterans from World Wars I and II and Korea march in protest against the war in New York City; the year ends with 390 thousand troops in Vietnam.

1967 - Largest contingent of troops in Vietnam at one time (500 thousand plus)… Democratic challengers begin challenging the incumbent Johnson… 'summer of love' in San Francisco's Haight-Ashbury; Martin Luther King declares he's against the war in Vietnam; Defense Secretary Robert McNamara says thus far the bombing is ineffective.

1968 - TET Offensive changes the course of the war and the mindset of Americans… Johnson will not seek re-election… Martin Luther King is assassinated as is Robert F. Kennedy… The Democratic Convention witnesses riots and unrest in Chicago… Richard M. Nixon elected president in a tight three-way race. My Lai massacre takes place.

1969 - Vietnam War intensifies, while troops begin returning home (Vietnamization)… The secret bombing of Cambodia begins

1970 - Kent State episode.

1971 - Pentagon Papers are published by the New York Times. The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers "demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent national interest and significance

1972 - Henry Kissinger says "peace is at hand" in Vietnam."

1973 - Cease fire in Vietnam is signed. Last American troops leave Vietnam. Hearings on Cambodia begin in Congress.

1975 - North Vietnam invades South Vietnam. Vietnam officially "falls" to communism.

1995 - U.S. normalizes relations with Vietnam.

1998 - U.S. normalizes economic ties with Vietnam.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM

In researching the roots of the Vietnam war, I ran across this nugget that eerily parallels what we have now:

He [JFK] strongly felt that this was a no win scenario, and that the Vietnamese people were not behind the corrupt government of South Viet-Nam.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:10 AM

"You don't have the necessary information if you believe the baloney that the rate has been reduced by 96% to 11 per day. What is your source of information?

Numbers killed in Afghanistan between April 1978 and October 2001 have been reported and "estimated" at between 1,500,000 and 2,100,000 - Source any number of internet sites covering the Soviet Invasion and occupation of Afghanistan

US pressured the UNSC to do its bidding in 1998? I think UNSC Resolutions relating to Afghanistan being regarded as a failed state date back long before 9/11 and before GWB even thought of running for office.

22nd October 1996 UNSC Resolution 1076
28th August 1998 UNSC Resolution 1193
8th December 1998 UNSC Resolution 1214
15th October 1999 UNSC Resolution 1267

"As the situation unfolded, the UN continued its role in promoting dialogue among Afghan parties, aimed at establishing a broad-based, inclusive government. On 3 October (2001), the Secretary-General reappointed Lakhdar Brahimi, who had resigned two years earlier, as his Special Envoy for Afghanistan.

On 12 November, the "Six plus Two" group met in New York under the chairmanship of the Secretary-General, agreeing on the need for a broad-based and freely chosen Afghan government and pledging continued support for UN humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan, as well as in refugee camps in neighbouring States. On 27 November, a conference on Afghanistan's reconstruction sponsored by UNDP, the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank, opened in Islamabad. Over 300 participants attended, including many from Afghanistan. Issues discussed included the role of women, the importance of education and the creation of a comprehensive health system.
A further donor conference -- focusing on the immediate and longer-term needs of the country -- was held in Berlin in early December.

Meanwhile, the Northern Alliance had entered Mazar-e-Sharif, Herat and then Kabul - a decisive event in the defeat of the Taliban. The United Nations organized a meeting of Afghan political leaders in Bonn in late November. When it concluded on 5 December, the four groups represented, including the Northern Alliance, signed an agreement on a provisional arrangement pending re-establishment of permanent government institutions in Afghanistan.

As a first step, the Afghan Interim Authority was established. On 20 December, the Security Council, by resolution 1386 (2001), authorized the establishment of an International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) to help the Authority maintain security in Kabul and its surrounding areas. On 22 December, in Kabul, the internationally recognized administration of President Rabbani handed power to the new Interim Afghan Administration, established in Bonn and headed by Chairman Hamid Karzai. Special Representative Brahimi moved to Kabul to commence his activities in support of the new Afghan Administration. At the same time, the first of the ISAF troops were deployed, under British control. - Source UN News Centre


Stringsinger any mention of GWB or the US in any of that? If my information is skewed and incorrect then so is that of the United Nations, I suggest that you get in touch with them and put them straight, after all what the hell would they know about it compared to yourself, who no doubt attended and chaired every meeting dealing with the unfolding situation.

Afghan civilian casualties since 2006:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics

Afghan civilian casualties since October 2001:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)

You seem to have Iraq and Afghanistan confused. Bitterly disappointed no doubt with how things turned out for the US in Iraq you now have transferred your attentions to Afghanistan, exactly what special "inside track" your preferred sources of information have on Afghanistan is not made clear by two journalists with clear anti-US agenda cannot be considered as being objective or impartial.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:06 AM

"Al Queda (which barely even exists, except for American propaganda purposes)"

Canadian al-Qaeda members:

    * Faker Boussora

    * Ahmed Said Khadr

    * Amer el-Maati

    * Mohammed Jabarah

    * Ahmed Ressam

    * Omar Khadam


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM

CBC

Mohammed Mansour Jabarah was only 12 when his family packed up and moved to Canada. His father Mansour was a successful businessman. "We decided to move to Canada," says his father. "We felt it was a very good place - a very secure place to build your future." The family settled in St. Catharines and seemed to flourish. Jabarah had one younger brother and two older brothers. Mohammed Mansour Jabarah attended Holy Cross Catholic Secondary school and seemed to adjust well.
      "Mostly he liked playing soccer; We used to play together every Saturday and Sunday," says Mansour. "He likes to play soccer all the time." The Jabarah family faithfully attended the Masjid an-Noor mosque in St. Catharines, where Mansour Jabarah was regularly called upon to lead the Friday prayers. He was quickly considered to be a natural leader in the local Muslim community says Mosque spokesperson Sallah Hamdani. "He's very helpful in the community. He's very active, very trustworthy," says Hamdani. "We say as Muslims, when a Muslim sees another Muslim that is trustworthy or helpful they employ him and God will employ him;. Mansour Jabarah fits that description as a person that was active in the community."
      Mansour says he brought up his children to be good, peaceful Muslims. "'Don't drink, don't smoke, don't have parties. You have to be sincere, you have to be honest, you have to pray, you have to be close to God if you want God to help you,'" says Mansour. "To be a nice person in general. This is what I installed in their hearts. " Mohammed Mansour Jabarah and his brothers would return to Kuwait every summer to vacation and re-connect with their families. There, they attended the local mosque, where it appears that Jabarah and his brother Abdul Rahman became devoted to a famous imam there, a radical preacher by the name of Abu Gaith.
      "Kuwait is a very small country," says Mansour Jabarah. "You know that any imam - any famous speaker - is very fast to spread his name among their people. This Abu Gaith, with my knowledge, there is no special relation with my son and him." Later, Abu Gaith was revealed to be a prominent leader of al-Qaeda. As a teenager, Mohammed Jabarah became pre-occupied with what he saw as the persecution of Muslims around the world. In the late 1990s, he saw the Russian republic of Chechnya as the worst example, and so he began raising money in St. Catharines for Chechen Muslim rebels and sent about $3,500 to Abu Gaith in Kuwait. Jabarah graduated from Holy Cross high school in St. Catharines in June 2000. His father says Mohammed was accepted at St. Mary's University in Nova Scotia to continue his education. His family was thrilled.
      But Mohammed Mansour Jabarah and his brother Abdul Rahman chose not to go university in Canada. They told their parents instead that they wanted to pursue advanced studies in Islam somewhere in the Persian Gulf region. The information known about Jabarah is derived from secret reports of his interrogation by the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation. The CBC has obtained some of those reports. One man who has studied the interrogation reports is Rohan Gunaratna, an academic in Singapore who has written several books about al-Qaeda. Gunaratna says that al-Qaeda tends to recruit people from the Middle East or Asia who live in North America, Western Europe, Australia or New Zealand for a good reason. "Those are the white countries of this world," he says. "If you have a passport from one of those countries, if you have lived in one of those countries, then you have natural cover. You can travel around the world and not be suspected."
      The FBI interrogation reports say that al-Qaeda recruited Jabarah and his brother in Kuwait and sent them to Pakistan for training. Mohammed travelled first to Karachi, then to Peshawar in the North West Frontier province of Pakistan, at the time an al-Qaeda stronghold. It was there the Jabarah brothers began attending al-Qaeda training camps. Their father says he was surprised and disappointed when they called him from Pakistan "They were looking for an Islamic school, but they did not tell me they were going to Pakistan," says Mansour. "Maybe I thought they went to any close Muslim country, Iraq or United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia or whatever. But to go that far; In Pakistan, we don't have any friends, we don't have any relative, we don't have any communication. It's a new life for them;. "Of course, I did not agree with them on what they were doing at that time," he says.
      In March 2001, Jabarah's parents decided to go to Saudi Arabia for the hajj, the annual pilgrimage attended by Muslims from around the world. Their son Abdul Rahman joined them in Saudi Arabia. When Abdul Rahman Jabarah re-entered Canada for a visit he was questioned by an immigration officer who noticed the Pakistani visa in his passport. The following day the Jabarah household in St Catharines received its first visit from agents from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, who wanted to know more about Abdul Rahman's experiences in Pakistan. They were asking like regular questions, 'How are you, how was school, did you visit Pakistan and for what reason,'" Mansour says. "It was very normal because this is the truth." It's now known that CSIS was concerned about whether any Canadian Muslims were going through Pakistan to the camps of Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. "They asked me, 'Did you have any idea about this camp? Do you have any idea where your sons go over there?'" recalls Mansour. "This type of questions I remember, they were focusing about it." But Mansour says his son told CSIS he had nothing to do with these camps. But Maria Ressa, who has spent years covering Southeast Asia for CNN, had access to the Jabarah interrogation reports for her book Seeds of Terror. She believes the two brothers were indoctrinated into al-Qaeda.
      "It's brainwashing," she says of al-Qaeda's methods. "It's inculcating them with a view of the world that is so virulently full of hatred for the satanic people - the Western world, the United States, anyone who is not Muslim. It takes the Muslim faith and twists it on itself and presents a whole new world order. "And in that world order, there are still the shadows of the men they were - of the kids that they were," she adds. "But they have a whole new purpose that they believe in wholeheartedly enough to kill themselves for;The first phase of Jemaah Islamiyah's or al-Qaeda's training is brainwashing. Mansour says that it is conceivable that his sons were brainwashed by al-Qaeda. "It may be possible. Maybe, why not?" he replies. "They are young, they don't have experience, they don't have any kind of knowledge. It is possible to brainwash any kind of person." According to the FBI interrogation reports, Mohammed Mansour Jabarah travelled from Peshawar in the early summer of 2001, across the border into Afghanistan where he attended other al-Qaeda training camps. Just north of Kabul, he did basic training and received specialized instruction to become a sniper. Finally, he took an advanced explosives course.
      He met with Osama bin Laden on four occasions and swore an oath of allegiance to him. He says that bin Laden was especially interested in him because he had a Canadian passport, which would throw off suspicion as he travelled around the world as an al-Qaeda operative. In the months leading up to the Sept. 11 attacks, Mohammed Mansour Jabarah also met with several other notable figures, including Ahmed al-Haznawi, who became one of the Sept. 11 hijackers; Zacarias Moussaoui, now charged in the U.S. in connection with Sept.11; and Richard Reid, who later tried to blow up an American Airlines jet with a bomb in his shoe.
      When Jabarah came down with a bad case of hepatitis, he was apparently treated by the number 2 man in al-Qaeda, Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri. Bin Laden then sent Jabarah for special training by Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who at the time was preparing the Sept. 11 attack. Rohan Gunaratna explains the kind of training Jabarah received from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. "That was Khalid's specialty," Gunaratna says, " He once spent time with the 9/11 operational commandants, the four technical pilots who crashed their planes and told them how to behave, how to use the fork and the knife, how to talk to someone, how to smile when you go through the airport, how to carry magazines with beautiful girls so that you will not be suspected;how to shave, how put some perfume, how to wear a chain, and a bracelet so that you will not be suspected as a terrorist but so someone will think that this guy is rich guy from the middle east, he doesn't want to commit suicide, so Khalid trained Mohammed Mansour Jabarah in that same model, in that same way.
      Khalid ordered Mohammed Mansour Jabarah to fly out of Pakistan before Sept. 11, 2001 but didn't tell him exactly why. Jabarah left Karachi on Sept. 10 and flew to Hong Kong. He was overnighting in a Hong Kong hotel when he saw the Sept. 11 attack on television. He instantly recognized it as the work of al-Qaeda. Now he understood why Khalid wanted him to leave Pakistan before Sept. 11. Watching the replays of the attack, Jabarah nearly lost his nerve for continuing with his al-Qaeda mission. Rohan Gunaratna says the Sept. 11 attacks affected Jabarah deeply. "[He] was very shocked and very surprised at the skill of the attack, but in Hong Kong there were second thoughts for a moment," says Gunaratna. "He wondered if this was the right thing to do."...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:59 AM

"And just don't worry about the Taliban that is the main supplier of the Heroin which is rotting Europe. Tough shit Europe."


"And just don't worry about Europe that is the main customer for the Heroin which is rotting Afghanistan. Tough shit Afghanistan"


All depends on how you look at, really.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:21 PM

Teribus,

I do have problems with the data you have supplied. You claim to have information that is factual but much of it is subject to interpretation and spin.

Iraq and Afghanistan are part of the same M.O. The US is in Afghanistan because it wants to control how it operates as a nation. Also, the reliance on oil is important to many nations here and the willingness to rob these countries of it prevail.

BTW, your sarcasm belies your ability to communicate factual information with reliability.
I doubt whether you have attended every UN meeting and have the requisite information about this that you claim. You have a barrage of "factoids" but the remaining impression is that somehow you are privy to information that no one else has. I could take each point that you offered and have a rebuttal to it but I don't think it would serve anyone here.

Mark Twain's observation applies here, "lies, damned lies and statistics".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM

1. Afghanistan is the longest war in US history and has accomplished nothing.
2. Ostensibly, the goal was to capture or kill Osama bin Laden but this wasn't done.
3. It was reported in the New York Times that 17 billion dollars was lost that was slated for Afghan reconstruction. No one knows where it went. (Can you guess?)
4. Afghanistan is one of the leading exporters of hard drugs in the world.
5. The Taliban has risen in strength due proportionately to the amount of foreign troops in their country.
6. The military solutions in Afghanistan hasn't worked but created more hostility and bloodshed. It is unworkable.
7. Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have been killed due to this war.
8. Blackwater and JSOC have been indiscriminate in their killing of civilians.
9. Iraqi police forces have tortured and killed innocent civilians and there's no reason
to believe that this hasn't occurred under the Karzai administration in Afghanistan.
10. The Pentagon has supplied information that is more like propaganda than fact.
11. The US military generals such as McChrystal and Petraeus are building enemies
rather than "changing hearts and minds" through their callous disregard and misunderstanding of the Muslim world. They are clueless.
12. There has been a virtual news blackout on the Afghan war by the Mainstream Media.
13. The Soviet occupation should have been a lesson to foreign invaders of Afghanistan.
14. President Obama is in thrall to the Pentagon and has assigned assassination squads to "enemy combatants" (a term that is distinctly dictatorial and suggests tyranny).
15. No one has offered a concrete solution as to how this war will end but many leaders suggest a war in perpetuity without resolve.
16. The more foreign military bases are established in Afghanistan, Iraq and other Mid-East countries, the more the world can count on reaction by the citizens of those countries.
17. The US role as well as the so-called "coalition of the willing" could possibly create
a second world war involving Israel.
18. The US economy is being bled dry by this meaningless pursuit.

Vietnam=quagmire=Afghanistan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:56 PM

"1. Afghanistan is the longest war in US history and has accomplished nothing."

Not quite true that Frank is it? Now while you may lie to yourself as much as you like, and while you may wish dearly to believe those lies, please do not try telling them to me, or anyone else and expect them to be believed.

The truth is Frank, that at the moment the United States of America is "At War with no-one. Another truth Frank is that the United States of America has never, ever been at war with Afghanistan. So could you please explain your "Point 1." above?

United Nations operation from DAY ONE.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 12:06 AM

Stringsinger:

Tell is the good parts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:39 AM

"2. Ostensibly, the goal was to capture or kill Osama bin Laden but this wasn't done."

Not exactly true again is it Frank? To kill or capture Osama bin Laden was "One of the Goals" of the Afghan part of US-Operation Enduring Freedom forces. Now nobody knows for sure whether they were successful in this or not. Many including the Benezir Bhutto believe that Osama bin Laden was killed in Tora Bora in 2001, no "outsider" has met him since, and if the insurgency was winning to the extent that you obviously believe Frank, he most certainly would be a doing rather more talking about it.

US-OEF have about 23,000 troops in Afghanistan Frank, all other US troops their fall under NATO-ISAF Command and reading their UN mandate and mission statement you will find that there is no mention of Al-Qaeda; Osama bin Laden or even the Taleban. The mission of ISAF is the reconstruction of Afghanistan and the training of Afghan National Security Forces.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 27 November 2:45 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.