BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM

`Hey Bruce, Tbus, Are you lurking?

Do you think Afghanistan has turned into a PC clusterfuck or what?`

If I`m the Bruce you mean, I think Afghanistan has been a cluster fuck since day one. If the mission is a stabilized country, it`s a failed mission. The war there has been a very defensive one on the part of NATO troops. To quote Sgt Barnes in the movie, `Platoon`, `You can`t expect to fight a war with one hand tied around your balls.`

It has become increasingly murky in that country. No one is winning, except maybe the Grim Reaper. My recollection is that Canada ended up there--to the tune of 2,500 troops--because the US needed to get some troops into Iraq, rfn, and as a sop to Bush (I often thought that if Bush ever stopped short, Harper would be stopped from doom only by his shoulders) because we`d incurred Bush`s wrath over not becoming a member of the ridiculous Coalition of the Willing.

That said,

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:46 PM

Care to let us all in on the secret of how the United States of America managed to invade a country two and a half times the size of France and a population of 32 million people with less than 500 men? Neat trick that, why didn't they do that in 1944 on D-Day, think of the lives that would have been saved.

Fact is of course that there was never any US invasion of Afghanistan. All the US did was to provide assistance to the Northern Alliance (who were the last internationally recognised Government of Afghansitan) in their fight against the Taleban.

From 1996 there is absolutely no doubt at all that Al-Qaeda were based and given protection from the Taleban in Afghanistan. It was from inside Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden issued his fatwas of 1996 and 1998 (In the first he stated that it was every true believers duty to kill any American - man, woman or child - at every opportunity in any part of the world wherever they were encountered, basically he declared "open season" on an entire nation. The second fatwa in 1998 was a declaration of war on the "West")

From inside their safe Haven in Afghanistan the attacks on the Khobar Towers, the US Embassy in Nairobi, the US Embassy in Dar-es-Salaam, the USS Cole and 9/11 we organised and planned.

"There is no realistic way to question that the Afghanistan "government" is a US puppet. I'd call that interference."

Now when the Soviets entered Afghanistan with their 40th Army of 154,00 men (That was an invasion Richard) they murdered the Communist Government in power and supplanted that Government with one of their own choosing - that is a real puppet Government and that is real interference.

Now what happened in 2001? Afghan delegation arrives in Germany and meets with representatives from the United Nations - TRUE? They did not meet with any US Government Representatives or any UK Government Representatives, they met the United Nations.

At that conference the Afghan Delegation put forward the nominees that would form the Interim Government. Note Richard the Afghan Delegates tabled those names, not the UN, not the USA, not the UK.

The list of nominees presented by the Afghan Delegates were to be subject to selection and approval by a Loya Jirga (A traditional tribal gathering of Afghan leaders) to be held in Kabul in 2002. Please note Richard final selection and approval for those candidates was not undertaken by anybody from the UN, the USA or the UK.

Summer 2002 the Interim Government is formed subsequent to that there were elections in 2004 and 2009. A Constitution was approved by a referendum.

OK Richard you tell me where in that process the USA steered the process? Show me where they influenced anything.

"Every Taliban member killed ensures two more. Every non-Taliban-member killed ensures ten more"

Really? Who came out with that crock, because that is not borne out by what is happening out in Afghanistan. As the Taleban and their allies (Hekmatyar & Haqqani) are killing 80% of all civilians in Afghanistan does that mean that whenever they kill somebody ten people join the Afghan Security Forces to fight the Taleban?

"If the US don't win, how are they going to get out without being massacred on the ground?"

Now with all the Taleban that have been killed their numbers "hydra-like" should have doubled many times over and since October 2001 have US-OEF forces, ISAF troops or Afghan Security Forces been massacred? No they have not. Take the UK losses as an example in nine years we have lost 341 men - NINE YEARS. In the 90 days preceding the 1st October ISAF & ANSF carried out over 2,800 offensive operations against the Taleban in those operation 395 Taleban leaders were killed, 1,300 Taleban "foot soldiers" were killed and 1,335 were captured.

In 2006 the Taleban at their strongest could not defeat or drive out 3,300 ISAF troops in Helmand. Today the Taleban are faced with 30,500 ISAF troops plus 15,000 ANSF personnel. If they could not do the job in 2006, care to enlighten us as to how they will manage it now?

About three weeks ago the Pro-Government Forces started their offensive down in Kandahar. Heard anything about it? Had there been massive ISAF casualties the BBC would sure as hell have reported it as would the Guardian. This is the place where earlier in the year when the intention to carry out this offensive was announced the Taleban stated that they would do the massacring - hasn't happened Richard. Why? Because the young Pakistani boys that Mullah Omar sent over the border were told to F**K-Off by the locals and they ran.

"If Pakistan blockades the ingoing passes how will the US get in enough fuel and ordnance even to defend themselves?"

If the Pakistani Government attempted to do that then the USA would cut off all aid to Pakistan and to Pakistan's military. There would immediately be a military coup to overthrow the Government and the lines of supply would be re-opened.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:09 PM

Become? Think it's been for a good while now.

Like a couple of other commentators in this thread, I may think the Taliban has strange ideas, may not agree with Al Queda, etc. but I think we (I am UK, another might be US) without clue created a horrible (literally) bloody mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM

There is a reason why the US cannot be a broker of peace between the Palistinians and the Isrealis and it's because the US has lost all credibility since 9/11 when we had the best opportunity in my life time to be a global role model in showing the world that we are a world of international law but...

...we didn't have the leadership who had the wiring to take the world further toward being a civilized place and thus went to the 20th century default position: war and more war???

It really sad to think how badly the Bush administration bungled this opportunity... I mean, we had almost the entire planet on our side after 9/11, Muslims included...

Bush blew it big time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:46 PM

Akenaton: "Hi Sanity...We've all missed ya!
Theres even been a thread started demandin'your return!   :0)"

Are you sure it wasn't a lynch mob????

Wink.... and Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:52 PM

Bobert's latest play to avoid having to back up his "facts". Amnesia.

Or maybe Alzheimers.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:02 PM

As per usual, Sawz... Fuck off... I am terribly bored with yer obsession with me...

(((yawn)))

BTW, we can talk current events any time ya' like if ya wake up one day and discover that you have some interest in them...

Until then, like I said, "Fuck off"...

...and don't let the bed bugs bite...

B~)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:20 PM

HMMMMMMM Bobert passes off his counterfeit "facts" then he folds up his tent and leaves town before he has to give a refund.

No Brag, Just fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:24 AM

"I may think the Taliban has strange ideas, may not agree with Al Queda, etc. but I think we (I am UK, another might be US) without clue created a horrible (literally) bloody mess."

Between April 1978 and October 2001 somewhere between 1.5 and 2.1 million Afghans were killed in fighting Afghans/Soviets/Afghans. The country was in ruins, three-quarters of the people were malnurished, Afghanistan's sgricultural base was destroyed and one third of the total population were either dead or living in refugee camps. Kabul resembled Berlin in May 1945 and its population had shrunk to 250,000.

Since October 2001 there have been armed forces operating inside Afghanistan tasked with protecting the general population as opposed to preying on them. Since October 2001 to the present the number of Afghan civilians killed in violence has been around 34,000 - That is a reduction in the death toll amongst the civilian population of 96%

Don't know about you but if I were an Afghan civilian I would tend to think that rather than creating a "bloody mess" things were moving markedly in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:59 AM

Afghans were killed in fighting Afghans/Soviets/Afghans.

Just Afghans and Soviets with no other interests?
-----

Don't know about you but if I were an Afghan civilian

I'd probably like to feel and be Afghan.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM

England decided to not get involved in our Civil war, and we should do the same in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM

Al Gore:

"I argued at the time and would now go back to argue for intervention in the tragedy of Bosnia earlier than we did, and speedier action in Rwanda as well, because I think that the capacity of the United States for moral leadership in the world can not be underestimated."

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:52 PM

Sawzaw: "....I think that the capacity of the United States for moral leadership in the world can not be underestimated...."--Al Gore

Rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off!...especially coming from Al Gore!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:15 PM

Teri - FFS! So why are the Afghans killing the US UK etc forces? Can you not see that they regard them as invaders? How are you going to win the war and when? And what is going to happen when you withdraw? Can you not see that all your pride in military force and alleged noble assistance and advice to the allegedly legitimate government (funny, does that sound like Vietnam?) does not offer an endgame?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:18 PM

A random quote off the net: -

"
A total of 2,170 Nato soldiers have been killed since the 2001 US-led invasion of Afghanistan which overthrew the Taliban government, including almost 1,350 US troops."

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM

Does anybody believe America done good in Bosnia?

I think so although those Muslim assholes have never thanked anybody for getting the Serbs off their ass.

Was LH flopping all around with feathers flying and squawking war is so bayud we just can't have this so stop this instant or I will stomp my little feets so hard that you are going to be sooorrry. I mean it too mr mean man.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:40 PM

Well, seems we are at the same impass as we found ourselves in in the early 70s... The "secret plan" was so secret that Nixon forgot what it was... We had lost the "hearts and minds" war... We had lost the support of the world community... Yeah, we're facing the same dreaded options and none of them include anything that can be defined as a "victory"...

Saws think if we just start shooting the joint up that will win US a victory... Problem is that, like Vietnam, if we can't creat a stable environment for the general population and win their "hearts and minds" that we can not win... Taking the fight to a greater degree, a la John Wayne, will just produce more civilian casualties and make that "heart and minds" thing even harder to achieve...

So...

...getting the heck out seems to be the only realistic option here...

I mean, there are lots of Afgans who remember the Taliban days as the "good old day" because the Taliban knew how to maintain some level of order...

This doesn't mean that I support the Taliban or the ways that they maintain order... I just means that I accept the reality that the US was fucked from the very beginning in Afganistan, just as it was in Iarq... Bad ideas generally end up with bad endings...

Too bad that Obma has to be the one to order up the bad endings but, hey, when you come into office you take the crap that wwas left for you and, yeah, I'm sure that has hurt him... I mean, the Repubs here have already tried rewriting history to make Afganistan "Obama's War"... Reality has taken a backseat to mytholgy but that just politics...

Time to get the heck out...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:51 PM

It's only about battle training troops and field testing weapons. Stevie boy don't give two shits from Sunday about the Taliban ner nuthin else. That there sumbitch can't even keep subversive trash from landin on our shores and becomin Canuck citizens sos they can continue their bullshit. Ask me, I think it's a money makin scam and those whose fingers are dirty are sniffin fer more.

And, I don't just mean them there boat people... I mean that fuckin trash what just pleaded guilty to killin a Yank soldier... far as I am concerned, his old man shoulda NEVER been allowed into Canada in the first place. Woulda NEVER happened under the old CITIZENSHIP laws. But, under the new combined immigration and citizenship CRAP, that piece of shit is allowed to be here and foster his HATE by using his own son.... I better shut up.

Oh well... lots of lawyers made lots of money.

The boat people... $22M for the laywers so far. And a lot for that little prick in "The Bay". His lawyer said he was "theatened" with being gang raped to death by large black men in a US prison on the last day of the trial? I hope he doesn't die... right away.

I think reality escapes us when politicians kill people a half a world away for no just reason but fail to protect us at home.

I am just sayin, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 02:34 AM

"So why are the Afghans killing the US UK etc forces?"

Are "The Afghans" killing US, UK, etc forces? The vast majority of "The Afghans" are not and are not only quite happy to see us there but do not want us to leave just yet.

"Can you not see that they regard them as invaders?"

That is odd because the majority (85%) of "The Afghans" see the Taleban as the greatest threat to their nation, and most certainly do not want to see them back in power, or back capable of challenging for power by force of arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

What dart board did you get the 85% from, T-Bird??? Or did you just pick that number out of a hat???

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

I would note during this somewhat peaceful interlude that Teribus has consistently shown himself to be one of the more informed folks on this forum. He has good reason to know about the Afghan war, my word on that.
I disagree with many of his views, but I do like the person behind the post. No offense meant to anyone, and certainly not you, Bobert.

I ain`t gonna break into a chorus of `Get Together`, but it`s sure a pain to see people I admire despite their political differences spend time fighting each other. Mini wars don`t solve much. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:05 AM

Hey, I like T-Bird, too... He is informed about lots of stuff... We just don't share the same world view... I mean, he looks for reasons to fight wars and I look for alternatives to not fight them...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:07 AM

Bobert, you are my favourite miserable old fart on Mudcat. Wouldn`t change you for the world. Keep well, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:24 AM

It doesn't stack up. 85/15. See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM

"Well, seems we are at the same impass as we found ourselves in in the early 70s... The "secret plan" was so secret that Nixon forgot what it was..."

Let a Democrat start a war that nobody in congress knows about much less voted on, Another Dem continues and it ends up in the lap of a Repub and suddenly it is the Republican's war.

Flip side.

When a Republican starts a war that the Democrats vote for and a Dem takes it over, miraculously it is still the Repubs war.

Just like magic ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:15 PM

"gang raped to death by large black men in a US prison"

I just had a thought. Remember the French Foreign Legion?

Let's offer these convicts years of military duty in Afghanistan in lieu of years in prison. Eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:20 PM

"What dart board did you get the 85% from, T-Bird??? Or did you just pick that number out of a hat???"

Yeah T, how dare you present Judge Bobert with an undocumented Fact?

For Shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:28 PM

Saw Zaw what war did a democrat start?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:48 PM

The idea that the Afghans deserve to rule themselves is laughable as anybody who goes to the Middle East for any appreciable length of time learns. It isn't really a country, it is a conglomeration of armies which are each a conglomeration of tribes and they all advertize for some outside force to finance and equip them so that they can blow the others away. As for corrupt govts, it is also laughable that the US is responsible for that. No matter what govt is established there and no matter who sets that govt up, it will be corrupt. It is impossible for there to be anything but a corrupt govt in Afghanistan just as it is impossible to rule Iraq democratically.

We keep insisting that these are rational people who want the same things in life we want. BUNK!! I don't know what it is they really want in life but I know this: It is NOT the same things we want. They look upon us with the deepest of contempt and could care less about us--we are less than nothing to them. If we all died today, they would dance in the streets and it has nothing to do with our meddling over there. That's what people like Little Hawk don't understand. "Oh, if we only treated them fairly, none of this would be happening." Yes, it would. You don't know what kind of people we're dealing with over there.

They are not rational and they have no concept of fairness. Corruption is a norm and an entitlement and pacificism is a contemptible weakness that they will take as an opportunity to exploit and destroy the people who practice it. This idea that they only want normal lives and peace is ridiculous. They do not. That is why they don't have it. No need to make it harder than it is.

I'm not saying that it's ok to do anything we want to over there only that this idea that we are somehow the Great Satan destroying their idyllic lives is an utter absurdity. Go there and you will see for yourself who is destroying their lives: THEM!

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM

Afghanistan is worse than Vietnam. It's a longer war and even more futile exercise of domination and power.

Josep, from your rant and tirade I would advocate that you know even less about the Afghan people. I would much more respect the word of Jeremy Scahill who has reported on them.

The reason that the Afghan people have no peace in their country is because the U.S. has mistakenly invaded them and slaughtered men, women and children who were innocent civilians. I'm so glad that Wikileaks has revealed the true nature of the Afghanistan debacle.

The Afghan people were able to rule themselves perfectly well before the US decided to "nation build" and conquer them. Their society is longer than America or England.
To say that they "have no concept of fairness" is a prejudiced piece of right-wing nut-job
chauvinism that shows little compassion for an oppressed people.

Josep, I don't know where you're coming from but your statements about Afghanistan can be easily discredited.

BTW when you say they look upon "us" with contempt, who are you talking about,
Kimosabe?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:13 PM

The idea that the Afghans deserve to rule themselves is laughable

Not sure I read that....

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM

Look, I don't care enough about this to argue it. I don't really care if the US stays there or not. It won't make any difference. The problems will still be there just as they were there before the US went there and just as they will be there when the US leaves.

No sane, rational people allow a group as the Taliban to take over their country.

And if you think the US leaving is going to solve their problems, well then by all means, let's leave.

That's all I have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:31 PM

gnu: "I think reality escapes us when politicians kill people a half a world away for no just reason but fail to protect us at home."

Ditto!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:37 AM

"The reason that the Afghan people have no peace in their country is because the U.S. has mistakenly invaded them and slaughtered men, women and children who were innocent civilians."

This mention of the "supposed" US invasion puts the date of this sometime between October and December 2001. If what existed in Afghansitan prior to October 2001 is Stringsinger's idea of what a peaceful country is then he obviously does not have the foggiest notion of what he is talking about.

Prior to October 2001 for a period of 23 years these innocent civilians that Stringsinger is obviously so concerned about were being killed at an average rate of 248 per day. Since October 2001 that rate has been reduced by 96% to 11 per day, out of which 8 are killed by the Taleban - In short Stringsinger you are talking a load of ill-informed bollocks.

"The Afghan people were able to rule themselves perfectly well before the US decided to "nation build" and conquer them."

Quite correct the Afghan people did live in a functioning secular parliamentary democracy prior to April 1978, so there is no question about "democracy" being a foreign "import" from 1929 Afghanistan has modelled itself upon Kemal Attaturk's Turkish State - nothing whatsoever is being "imposed" upon them.

The date mentioned above marked the end of parliamentary democracy in Afghanistan and that end was brought about in a markedly bloody coup staged by the Khalq faction of the Afghan Communist PDPA - nothing to do with the US at all.

"The US decided to conquer Afghanistan and nation build" Stringsinger?? When? I can refer you to meetings held between the Afghan leaders and representatives of the United Nations who long before 9/11 had declared Afghanistan a "Failed State". The "Reconstruction" effort ongoing in Afghanistan today is a United Nations programme being undertaken by UNAMA and by ISAF - clearly documented fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM

Not yet, but it may be heading that way.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:12 PM

Teribus, your facts are skewed.    You don't have the necessary information if you believe the baloney that the rate has been reduced by 96% to 11 per day. What is your source of information? (As if I didn't know). I prefer what Dahr Jamail and Jeremy Scahill have to say over this epistle of your misinformation.

Bush certainly decided to nation-build in Afghanistan through his military agenda and other dubious alliances such as with the corrupt Karzai. The "Reconstruction" program going on in Afghanistan today is a sham. That is also a clearly documented fact as revealed by Wikileaks.17 billion dollars of US taxpayer dollars slated for reconstruction has been lost and unaccounted for.

The ISAF was created to secure Kabul and is part of the NATO lead operation there which is principally in thrall to the U.S. wartime policy. The United Nations Security Council is one branch of the UN that is often pressured by U.S. war hawks. This is the only reason that Afghanistan might have been declared a "failed state".

It is however now a failed state thanks to U.S. involvement in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:18 PM

Remember Teribus, you haven't addressed the atrocities committed by Blackwater and other mercenary security firms. Also, the misinformation regarding the body count of innocent civilians at the hands of JSOC is fortunately being brought to life by Wikileaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:18 PM

Saw Zaw what war did a democrat start?

After doing some research. Eisehhower had the first involvement in Vietnam. However Johnson made the war an official hot war with the fabricated Gulf Of Tonkin incident. Kennedy wisely wanted to pull out.

The "Vietnam War", which was a civil war was well underway before the US had any involvement, Kennedy sent additional American 'advisors' for a total of 16.200 (an increase of 4.000) from IKE's build-up after taking over from the defeated French expedition, to help the South Vietnamese. On Oct 6 1963 he signed an executive (NSAM 263) National Security Action Memorandum) report that provided for the removal of 1000 troops in December 1963 and the vast majority of troops were to be out by 1965. He strongly felt that this was a no win scenario, and that the Vietnamese people were not behind the corrupt government of South Viet-Nam . After JFK was killed, LBJ countermanded that order with NSAM 273, and increased the number of troops dramatically, eventually to 500.000 within 2 years, eventually resulting in the deaths of 58.000 American soldiers throughout the Johnson and Nixon presidencies. These soldiers died in vain, and tore the USA apart with civil strife and eventually culminated with the loss of American's trust in government with the final insult of the "Watergate travesty" which had ties all the way back to that dark day in Dallas on November 22, 1963, when America lost it's last independent leader, before the corporate military industrial take-over. JFK had warned us all . And we did not listen.. Now that's the way it was.

1953 - The French grant Laos independence; Vietnam soon invades Laos.

1954 - Battle of Dienbienphu occurs where 40 thousand Vietnamese attack French posts; the French subsequently lose. The Geneva Convention end hostilities, the 17th parallel divides north and south Vietnam. SEATO is created.

1956 - The French leave Vietnam for good. Sen. John F. Kennedy says "Vietnam represents the cornerstone of the free world in southeast Asia."

1957 - American special forces begin training South Vietnamese; terrorist attack wound 13 Americans.

1959 - Ho Chi Minh Trail is built creating a major thoroughfare for the communists in North Vietnam; Diem of South Vietnam cracks down on dissidents.

1960 - Universal conscription in North Vietnam commences; Kennedy defeats V.P. Nixon; the Vietcong forms (National Liberation Front).

1963 - After the North Vietnamese defeat the South Vietnamese in yet another confrontation, Kennedy tells the press in July "We don't have a prayer of staying over there, but I can't give up a piece of territory like that to the Communists and get the American people to re-elect me." the United States informally commits to defend South Vietnam… John F. Kennedy is assassinated… Lyndon B. Johnson assumes the presidency.

1964 - The Gulf of Tonkin incident officially pushes the U.S. into conflict in Indochina… LBJ soundly re-elected. U.S. has 23 thousand troops in Vietnam by the end of the year.


1965 - Operation Rolling Thunder begins three years of continuous bombings.

1966 - B-52s are first used in Vietnam; Johnson visits South Vietnam; veterans from World Wars I and II and Korea march in protest against the war in New York City; the year ends with 390 thousand troops in Vietnam.

1967 - Largest contingent of troops in Vietnam at one time (500 thousand plus)… Democratic challengers begin challenging the incumbent Johnson… 'summer of love' in San Francisco's Haight-Ashbury; Martin Luther King declares he's against the war in Vietnam; Defense Secretary Robert McNamara says thus far the bombing is ineffective.

1968 - TET Offensive changes the course of the war and the mindset of Americans… Johnson will not seek re-election… Martin Luther King is assassinated as is Robert F. Kennedy… The Democratic Convention witnesses riots and unrest in Chicago… Richard M. Nixon elected president in a tight three-way race. My Lai massacre takes place.

1969 - Vietnam War intensifies, while troops begin returning home (Vietnamization)… The secret bombing of Cambodia begins

1970 - Kent State episode.

1971 - Pentagon Papers are published by the New York Times. The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers "demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent national interest and significance

1972 - Henry Kissinger says "peace is at hand" in Vietnam."

1973 - Cease fire in Vietnam is signed. Last American troops leave Vietnam. Hearings on Cambodia begin in Congress.

1975 - North Vietnam invades South Vietnam. Vietnam officially "falls" to communism.

1995 - U.S. normalizes relations with Vietnam.

1998 - U.S. normalizes economic ties with Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM

In researching the roots of the Vietnam war, I ran across this nugget that eerily parallels what we have now:

He [JFK] strongly felt that this was a no win scenario, and that the Vietnamese people were not behind the corrupt government of South Viet-Nam.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:10 AM

"You don't have the necessary information if you believe the baloney that the rate has been reduced by 96% to 11 per day. What is your source of information?

Numbers killed in Afghanistan between April 1978 and October 2001 have been reported and "estimated" at between 1,500,000 and 2,100,000 - Source any number of internet sites covering the Soviet Invasion and occupation of Afghanistan

US pressured the UNSC to do its bidding in 1998? I think UNSC Resolutions relating to Afghanistan being regarded as a failed state date back long before 9/11 and before GWB even thought of running for office.

22nd October 1996 UNSC Resolution 1076
28th August 1998 UNSC Resolution 1193
8th December 1998 UNSC Resolution 1214
15th October 1999 UNSC Resolution 1267

"As the situation unfolded, the UN continued its role in promoting dialogue among Afghan parties, aimed at establishing a broad-based, inclusive government. On 3 October (2001), the Secretary-General reappointed Lakhdar Brahimi, who had resigned two years earlier, as his Special Envoy for Afghanistan.

On 12 November, the "Six plus Two" group met in New York under the chairmanship of the Secretary-General, agreeing on the need for a broad-based and freely chosen Afghan government and pledging continued support for UN humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan, as well as in refugee camps in neighbouring States. On 27 November, a conference on Afghanistan's reconstruction sponsored by UNDP, the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank, opened in Islamabad. Over 300 participants attended, including many from Afghanistan. Issues discussed included the role of women, the importance of education and the creation of a comprehensive health system.
A further donor conference -- focusing on the immediate and longer-term needs of the country -- was held in Berlin in early December.

Meanwhile, the Northern Alliance had entered Mazar-e-Sharif, Herat and then Kabul - a decisive event in the defeat of the Taliban. The United Nations organized a meeting of Afghan political leaders in Bonn in late November. When it concluded on 5 December, the four groups represented, including the Northern Alliance, signed an agreement on a provisional arrangement pending re-establishment of permanent government institutions in Afghanistan.

As a first step, the Afghan Interim Authority was established. On 20 December, the Security Council, by resolution 1386 (2001), authorized the establishment of an International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) to help the Authority maintain security in Kabul and its surrounding areas. On 22 December, in Kabul, the internationally recognized administration of President Rabbani handed power to the new Interim Afghan Administration, established in Bonn and headed by Chairman Hamid Karzai. Special Representative Brahimi moved to Kabul to commence his activities in support of the new Afghan Administration. At the same time, the first of the ISAF troops were deployed, under British control. - Source UN News Centre

Stringsinger any mention of GWB or the US in any of that? If my information is skewed and incorrect then so is that of the United Nations, I suggest that you get in touch with them and put them straight, after all what the hell would they know about it compared to yourself, who no doubt attended and chaired every meeting dealing with the unfolding situation.

Afghan civilian casualties since 2006:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics

Afghan civilian casualties since October 2001:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)

You seem to have Iraq and Afghanistan confused. Bitterly disappointed no doubt with how things turned out for the US in Iraq you now have transferred your attentions to Afghanistan, exactly what special "inside track" your preferred sources of information have on Afghanistan is not made clear by two journalists with clear anti-US agenda cannot be considered as being objective or impartial.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:06 AM

"Al Queda (which barely even exists, except for American propaganda purposes)"

Canadian al-Qaeda members:

    * Faker Boussora

    * Ahmed Said Khadr

    * Amer el-Maati

    * Mohammed Jabarah

    * Ahmed Ressam

    * Omar Khadam

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM

CBC

Mohammed Mansour Jabarah was only 12 when his family packed up and moved to Canada. His father Mansour was a successful businessman. "We decided to move to Canada," says his father. "We felt it was a very good place - a very secure place to build your future." The family settled in St. Catharines and seemed to flourish. Jabarah had one younger brother and two older brothers. Mohammed Mansour Jabarah attended Holy Cross Catholic Secondary school and seemed to adjust well.
      "Mostly he liked playing soccer; We used to play together every Saturday and Sunday," says Mansour. "He likes to play soccer all the time." The Jabarah family faithfully attended the Masjid an-Noor mosque in St. Catharines, where Mansour Jabarah was regularly called upon to lead the Friday prayers. He was quickly considered to be a natural leader in the local Muslim community says Mosque spokesperson Sallah Hamdani. "He's very helpful in the community. He's very active, very trustworthy," says Hamdani. "We say as Muslims, when a Muslim sees another Muslim that is trustworthy or helpful they employ him and God will employ him;. Mansour Jabarah fits that description as a person that was active in the community."
      Mansour says he brought up his children to be good, peaceful Muslims. "'Don't drink, don't smoke, don't have parties. You have to be sincere, you have to be honest, you have to pray, you have to be close to God if you want God to help you,'" says Mansour. "To be a nice person in general. This is what I installed in their hearts. " Mohammed Mansour Jabarah and his brothers would return to Kuwait every summer to vacation and re-connect with their families. There, they attended the local mosque, where it appears that Jabarah and his brother Abdul Rahman became devoted to a famous imam there, a radical preacher by the name of Abu Gaith.
      "Kuwait is a very small country," says Mansour Jabarah. "You know that any imam - any famous speaker - is very fast to spread his name among their people. This Abu Gaith, with my knowledge, there is no special relation with my son and him." Later, Abu Gaith was revealed to be a prominent leader of al-Qaeda. As a teenager, Mohammed Jabarah became pre-occupied with what he saw as the persecution of Muslims around the world. In the late 1990s, he saw the Russian republic of Chechnya as the worst example, and so he began raising money in St. Catharines for Chechen Muslim rebels and sent about $3,500 to Abu Gaith in Kuwait. Jabarah graduated from Holy Cross high school in St. Catharines in June 2000. His father says Mohammed was accepted at St. Mary's University in Nova Scotia to continue his education. His family was thrilled.
      But Mohammed Mansour Jabarah and his brother Abdul Rahman chose not to go university in Canada. They told their parents instead that they wanted to pursue advanced studies in Islam somewhere in the Persian Gulf region. The information known about Jabarah is derived from secret reports of his interrogation by the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation. The CBC has obtained some of those reports. One man who has studied the interrogation reports is Rohan Gunaratna, an academic in Singapore who has written several books about al-Qaeda. Gunaratna says that al-Qaeda tends to recruit people from the Middle East or Asia who live in North America, Western Europe, Australia or New Zealand for a good reason. "Those are the white countries of this world," he says. "If you have a passport from one of those countries, if you have lived in one of those countries, then you have natural cover. You can travel around the world and not be suspected."
      The FBI interrogation reports say that al-Qaeda recruited Jabarah and his brother in Kuwait and sent them to Pakistan for training. Mohammed travelled first to Karachi, then to Peshawar in the North West Frontier province of Pakistan, at the time an al-Qaeda stronghold. It was there the Jabarah brothers began attending al-Qaeda training camps. Their father says he was surprised and disappointed when they called him from Pakistan "They were looking for an Islamic school, but they did not tell me they were going to Pakistan," says Mansour. "Maybe I thought they went to any close Muslim country, Iraq or United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia or whatever. But to go that far; In Pakistan, we don't have any friends, we don't have any relative, we don't have any communication. It's a new life for them;. "Of course, I did not agree with them on what they were doing at that time," he says.
      In March 2001, Jabarah's parents decided to go to Saudi Arabia for the hajj, the annual pilgrimage attended by Muslims from around the world. Their son Abdul Rahman joined them in Saudi Arabia. When Abdul Rahman Jabarah re-entered Canada for a visit he was questioned by an immigration officer who noticed the Pakistani visa in his passport. The following day the Jabarah household in St Catharines received its first visit from agents from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, who wanted to know more about Abdul Rahman's experiences in Pakistan. They were asking like regular questions, 'How are you, how was school, did you visit Pakistan and for what reason,'" Mansour says. "It was very normal because this is the truth." It's now known that CSIS was concerned about whether any Canadian Muslims were going through Pakistan to the camps of Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. "They asked me, 'Did you have any idea about this camp? Do you have any idea where your sons go over there?'" recalls Mansour. "This type of questions I remember, they were focusing about it." But Mansour says his son told CSIS he had nothing to do with these camps. But Maria Ressa, who has spent years covering Southeast Asia for CNN, had access to the Jabarah interrogation reports for her book Seeds of Terror. She believes the two brothers were indoctrinated into al-Qaeda.
      "It's brainwashing," she says of al-Qaeda's methods. "It's inculcating them with a view of the world that is so virulently full of hatred for the satanic people - the Western world, the United States, anyone who is not Muslim. It takes the Muslim faith and twists it on itself and presents a whole new world order. "And in that world order, there are still the shadows of the men they were - of the kids that they were," she adds. "But they have a whole new purpose that they believe in wholeheartedly enough to kill themselves for;The first phase of Jemaah Islamiyah's or al-Qaeda's training is brainwashing. Mansour says that it is conceivable that his sons were brainwashed by al-Qaeda. "It may be possible. Maybe, why not?" he replies. "They are young, they don't have experience, they don't have any kind of knowledge. It is possible to brainwash any kind of person." According to the FBI interrogation reports, Mohammed Mansour Jabarah travelled from Peshawar in the early summer of 2001, across the border into Afghanistan where he attended other al-Qaeda training camps. Just north of Kabul, he did basic training and received specialized instruction to become a sniper. Finally, he took an advanced explosives course.
      He met with Osama bin Laden on four occasions and swore an oath of allegiance to him. He says that bin Laden was especially interested in him because he had a Canadian passport, which would throw off suspicion as he travelled around the world as an al-Qaeda operative. In the months leading up to the Sept. 11 attacks, Mohammed Mansour Jabarah also met with several other notable figures, including Ahmed al-Haznawi, who became one of the Sept. 11 hijackers; Zacarias Moussaoui, now charged in the U.S. in connection with Sept.11; and Richard Reid, who later tried to blow up an American Airlines jet with a bomb in his shoe.
      When Jabarah came down with a bad case of hepatitis, he was apparently treated by the number 2 man in al-Qaeda, Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri. Bin Laden then sent Jabarah for special training by Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who at the time was preparing the Sept. 11 attack. Rohan Gunaratna explains the kind of training Jabarah received from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. "That was Khalid's specialty," Gunaratna says, " He once spent time with the 9/11 operational commandants, the four technical pilots who crashed their planes and told them how to behave, how to use the fork and the knife, how to talk to someone, how to smile when you go through the airport, how to carry magazines with beautiful girls so that you will not be suspected;how to shave, how put some perfume, how to wear a chain, and a bracelet so that you will not be suspected as a terrorist but so someone will think that this guy is rich guy from the middle east, he doesn't want to commit suicide, so Khalid trained Mohammed Mansour Jabarah in that same model, in that same way.
      Khalid ordered Mohammed Mansour Jabarah to fly out of Pakistan before Sept. 11, 2001 but didn't tell him exactly why. Jabarah left Karachi on Sept. 10 and flew to Hong Kong. He was overnighting in a Hong Kong hotel when he saw the Sept. 11 attack on television. He instantly recognized it as the work of al-Qaeda. Now he understood why Khalid wanted him to leave Pakistan before Sept. 11. Watching the replays of the attack, Jabarah nearly lost his nerve for continuing with his al-Qaeda mission. Rohan Gunaratna says the Sept. 11 attacks affected Jabarah deeply. "[He] was very shocked and very surprised at the skill of the attack, but in Hong Kong there were second thoughts for a moment," says Gunaratna. "He wondered if this was the right thing to do."...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:59 AM

"And just don't worry about the Taliban that is the main supplier of the Heroin which is rotting Europe. Tough shit Europe."


"And just don't worry about Europe that is the main customer for the Heroin which is rotting Afghanistan. Tough shit Afghanistan"


All depends on how you look at, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:21 PM

Teribus,

I do have problems with the data you have supplied. You claim to have information that is factual but much of it is subject to interpretation and spin.

Iraq and Afghanistan are part of the same M.O. The US is in Afghanistan because it wants to control how it operates as a nation. Also, the reliance on oil is important to many nations here and the willingness to rob these countries of it prevail.

BTW, your sarcasm belies your ability to communicate factual information with reliability.
I doubt whether you have attended every UN meeting and have the requisite information about this that you claim. You have a barrage of "factoids" but the remaining impression is that somehow you are privy to information that no one else has. I could take each point that you offered and have a rebuttal to it but I don't think it would serve anyone here.

Mark Twain's observation applies here, "lies, damned lies and statistics".

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM

1. Afghanistan is the longest war in US history and has accomplished nothing.
2. Ostensibly, the goal was to capture or kill Osama bin Laden but this wasn't done.
3. It was reported in the New York Times that 17 billion dollars was lost that was slated for Afghan reconstruction. No one knows where it went. (Can you guess?)
4. Afghanistan is one of the leading exporters of hard drugs in the world.
5. The Taliban has risen in strength due proportionately to the amount of foreign troops in their country.
6. The military solutions in Afghanistan hasn't worked but created more hostility and bloodshed. It is unworkable.
7. Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have been killed due to this war.
8. Blackwater and JSOC have been indiscriminate in their killing of civilians.
9. Iraqi police forces have tortured and killed innocent civilians and there's no reason
to believe that this hasn't occurred under the Karzai administration in Afghanistan.
10. The Pentagon has supplied information that is more like propaganda than fact.
11. The US military generals such as McChrystal and Petraeus are building enemies
rather than "changing hearts and minds" through their callous disregard and misunderstanding of the Muslim world. They are clueless.
12. There has been a virtual news blackout on the Afghan war by the Mainstream Media.
13. The Soviet occupation should have been a lesson to foreign invaders of Afghanistan.
14. President Obama is in thrall to the Pentagon and has assigned assassination squads to "enemy combatants" (a term that is distinctly dictatorial and suggests tyranny).
15. No one has offered a concrete solution as to how this war will end but many leaders suggest a war in perpetuity without resolve.
16. The more foreign military bases are established in Afghanistan, Iraq and other Mid-East countries, the more the world can count on reaction by the citizens of those countries.
17. The US role as well as the so-called "coalition of the willing" could possibly create
a second world war involving Israel.
18. The US economy is being bled dry by this meaningless pursuit.

Vietnam=quagmire=Afghanistan

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:56 PM

"1. Afghanistan is the longest war in US history and has accomplished nothing."

Not quite true that Frank is it? Now while you may lie to yourself as much as you like, and while you may wish dearly to believe those lies, please do not try telling them to me, or anyone else and expect them to be believed.

The truth is Frank, that at the moment the United States of America is "At War with no-one. Another truth Frank is that the United States of America has never, ever been at war with Afghanistan. So could you please explain your "Point 1." above?

United Nations operation from DAY ONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 12:06 AM

Stringsinger:

Tell is the good parts.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:39 AM

"2. Ostensibly, the goal was to capture or kill Osama bin Laden but this wasn't done."

Not exactly true again is it Frank? To kill or capture Osama bin Laden was "One of the Goals" of the Afghan part of US-Operation Enduring Freedom forces. Now nobody knows for sure whether they were successful in this or not. Many including the Benezir Bhutto believe that Osama bin Laden was killed in Tora Bora in 2001, no "outsider" has met him since, and if the insurgency was winning to the extent that you obviously believe Frank, he most certainly would be a doing rather more talking about it.

US-OEF have about 23,000 troops in Afghanistan Frank, all other US troops their fall under NATO-ISAF Command and reading their UN mandate and mission statement you will find that there is no mention of Al-Qaeda; Osama bin Laden or even the Taleban. The mission of ISAF is the reconstruction of Afghanistan and the training of Afghan National Security Forces.