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BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?

Richard Bridge 05 Nov 10 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 05 Nov 10 - 06:10 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Nov 10 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 05 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Nov 10 - 09:59 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 05 Nov 10 - 01:26 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 05 Nov 10 - 01:31 PM
Backwoodsman 05 Nov 10 - 02:02 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Nov 10 - 04:38 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 05 Nov 10 - 05:12 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 05 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 05 Nov 10 - 05:25 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Nov 10 - 06:49 PM
Old Vermin 06 Nov 10 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 06 Nov 10 - 12:23 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Nov 10 - 12:44 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Nov 10 - 01:11 PM

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Subject: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:23 AM

The Government's new advisor on small businesses could recommend an increase in the length of time employees have to work before being allowed to bring unfair dismissal claims.

Employees can currently take unfair dismissal claims against employers once they have been in their jobs for a year. The Government's just-appointed small business advisor Lord Young confirmed to BBC Radio this morning that he might recommend preventing such claims until workers had been employed for two years.

The Government said that it had appointed Lord Young to his unpaid advisory post to "ensure the economic contribution that small and medium-sized businesses make and the issues they face are recognised at the very heart of government".

Lord Young said that he would have to consult with small businesses before making any recommendations but confirmed earlier leaks that the increase in the amount of time employees have to work before being eligible for unfair dismissal claims was "one of the lines" he would investigate.

"Back in the '80s when we did that, the result was that employment starting shooting up again," said Lord Young on BBC Radio 4's Today programme. "I want to find out what small business people themselves think about this and then we'll think about it."

The move could relieve businesses of some obligations to employees but the effect might not be as significant as the Government hopes, according to employment law expert Kirsty Ayre of Pinsent Masons, the law firm behind OUT-LAW.COM.

"I think what we would be likely to see is a small reduction in the number of unfair dismissal claims in the one to two year period, but a corresponding increase in the number of discrimination claims," said Ayre.

"The number of standalone unfair dismissal claims we are seeing is decreasing. Increasingly they are coming with discrimination claims tagged on; that means that there is unlimited compensation and the possibility of claiming for injury to feelings," she said.

Ayre said that Lord Young might be told by companies that they want to see the lengthening of the service requirements for unfair dismissal claims, but that this may not make a major difference to companies.

"On the face of it this will be welcomed by employers because it gives more flexibility and a longer period of probation for staff," she said. "But in the longer term I think this won't significantly reduce the number of claims it will just change the type of claims, and we'll see more with a discrimination element."


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:10 AM

Me, I'd wait for the word "could" to be clarified before rubbing the material off the arms of my armchair.

The balance is not easy. An employer has to assess risk when employing people. If there are tears before bedtime for either party, can the employer afford that?

In essence, and without expressing a view one way or the other, there is a balance between fewer people employed with lots of protection versus more people employed with less protection. Having been both sides of the table, I would have preferred this to be preceded with a tweaking of tribunal criteria, as spurious claims are making employers nervous, and bad employers are spoiling the system for potential employees.

The arbitrary lengthening of qualifying time is a blunt tool when the opportunity to look at mutual trust in the employment arena is what Lord Young should, in my humble opinion, be addressing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:22 AM

Same old same old. What really needs fixing in employment law is "the reasonable range of responses" rule which is a loophole for many an exploitative employer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM

What really needs fixing is the idea that everything either is or should be one sided. It takes two to tango. Whilst there have been many unscrupulous employers out there, the good ones become nervous about employing if the risk to the overall business is compromised. And that doesn't help those employees already in place.

We bought out a supplier in Italy a few years ago. We were impressed with the investment in automation, from the advanced CNC machining to robotic assembly lines. After meeting with the local management, we realised the issue here. The local council was run by the communist party and the company had been hamstrung at every turn, meaning they had to think twice increasing the workforce as the company grew, hence the huge investment in automation. Where they had 8 operatives in assembly, I figured our Brighton factory would need over 30 people to effect the same productivity.

Me? I genuinely see business as part of society's infrastructure and am dismayed when demarkation is the most viable option. However, (and I am still a non executive director) we didn't replace worn out machinery with more people, whereas in the Brighton factory, we haven't followed the automation route. We saw (and those involved day to day still see) UK as a better place to employ people than many other EU countries. I don't accept that this is because employers can walk over employees here, but that there is a better sense of rights and responsibilities walking hand in hand.

The answer has to be in the middle. You can force people on employers in some socialist Utopia, and Heaven knows, I was a radical teenager myself once. But I did grow up. Not to see exploitation as a virtue, but to realise both parties need to be comfortable with a system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:59 AM

Most of the rotten apples I have seen recently, in a range of employment and employment-related disputes, have been the ones higher up the tree.

I do not see anywhere employers treating employees as team members. I haven't see "a fair day's work for a fair day's pay" (or vice versa) since the late 70s.

Incidentally, if that Italian factory is Nord-Elettronica, have a look around for the rep for their products...

Also, do tell me how the local Italian council could alter Italian employment law - or get any judicial decisions in its favour given the timescales in the Italian parliament and courts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:26 PM

Most employers these days stink. They are miserly to the point of disbelief, they have no loyalty to their staff, they are suspicioius of everyone, and quite frankly, they really don't give a shit about their 'human resources', just about their profit. They want people to be 'available' Monday to Sunday 8am to 8pm, just in case they should need you...They regard all employees as having no right to any life outside their basic miinimum wage job, and..they don't like even giving you a contract, unless they have to.

In return they have a workforce that has shows them no loyalty, steals from them, has an 'Am I bovvered?' attitude and will leave them at the drop of a hat, or try to sue them so that at least they can get some 'job satisfaction' from the Stingy Bastards who employ them.

I realise there ARE good employers out there, but sadly, at least down here in the West Country, they are few and far between.

As an employee you are made to answer stupid, patronising questions..here's one from Boots the Chemist site, which my friend was raging about the other day:

"Have you ever lied to your parents?"

I mean????

Who the *fuck* wants to work for Dingbats who think that's a good question to ask an employee!

M&S had "Do you consider yourself to be honest?"
That made me roar with laughter...! "Doh....NOOOOOOOOO!" is the obvious answer to that one! ;0)

I mean, these thick as shite people have probably paid 'experts' hundreds of thousands of pounds for this pyschological bullshit...and they think intelligent people want to *work* for *them*?

I'd rather be on the streets selling The Big Issue. At least I'd still have my integrity!

Holey Jumping Catfish, WHAT has happened to everyone?!!!

AND....what the FUCK have my 'O' Levels, taken FORTY years back now got to do with my LIFE????? WHY do The Dingbats want to know??????

Working for the Corporate Bastards is a total nightmare. My friend's daughter worked for Boots, a while back..and she was body searched by them, had to hold the waist of her trousers out, take her shoes and socks off...She should, of course, have told them to fuck off, but they put it in their contracts you see...that Boots reserves the right to search you for BootsyTypeThings, that you've obviously stuffed down your knickers whilst lugging heavy boxes of stock up and down a lift that doesn't work, whilst working SIX hours with no break, 'cos they ain't *legally* entitled to give you one...(Hey, let's not bring *morally* into this situation!)

It serves them right if they're getting stuff stolen from them...Meaness breeds Meaness. Disloyalty breed Disloyalty. Supsicion breeds Couldn't Give a Flying Fuck About You or Your Business!

Once upon a time, in a Land, far, far away, it was all so very different...and it can be again, of course, because the Workforce is the one with the Power, NOT the employer...and without his workforce, he is lost..

Sadly, they've dumbed everyone down to the point where they no longer think about the bleedin' obvious, and they just chug along together, unhappy proles in a deeply unhappy Orwellian World....


What was the question again, Richard? Er............    ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:31 PM

Oops..'psychological'...to those who have steam spinning out of their ears over spollign mestaykes.. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:02 PM

That doesn't sound anything like the company I work for, Lizzie. Nor like any of the others I've worked for over the past 47 years.
Please don't be fooled by your own, obviously bad, experiences into believing that they're all like that. Many aren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 04:38 PM

Woodie - go and look at the standard forms you get from "Peninsula" the biggest outsource resource of HR in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:12 PM

Oh..and my ex-husband wasn't even PAID for two whole months recently...along with the rest of the workforce. Of course, they all got into debt with standing orders etc, but their employers didn't give a hoot..They've finally started paying them again now, but their way of dealing with the distress caused was....to turn off the phones to Head Office...

Cool, huh?

And yes, everyone's looking for new jobs, but...there aren't any..else they'd all be long gone...So that's great ain't it? WHAT a way to treat people! The reason, allegedly, was that the company wasn't being paid by those further down the chain, but no-one has any way of knowing if this is true or not.

They've now opened up under a new name, supposedly gone bankrupt...They were paid this month, but who knows what the hell's happened to all the rest of the money...

Backwoodsman, the last 3 jobs I've had all were like this, including The National Trust, which started going down this road too, so I left it. I called in to see them all the other day and they've had SIX changes of Area Managers since I left...and there are *many* changes afoot, from a whole new younger team who want to turn it all arse over elbow...It's nowhere near the place it used to be..

You go into ANY vast Corporate store and talk to the staff..You'll find they work Sundays and Bank Holidays for no extra pay, that they are often told they *have* to work Sundays...Why, here in Torquay Debenhams is opening at SEVEN O'CLOCK in the MORNING on...BOXING DAY!!???

So that means that all staff working on that day, and it'll be nearly all of them, trust me...wont be able to enjoy their Christmas Day, or have a drink in the evening because there's no public transport on Boxing Day morning...

Who the fuck is going to be in Debenhams in Torquay at 7am on Boxing Day Morning??? But the staff have no choice...or at least, they *think* they don't.   Of course, ALL they have to is come together and say "You know, we're NOT going to do that!" and that would solve the bullying problem instantly...

Go into 'NEXT' on Sale Day and you'll find their staff have been their since FIVE O'CLOCK in the MORNING! ?????? Again, they're TOLD they have to be and that's that...So they'll have been up since around 4am or even earlier, depending on how long it takes them to get to work...same with Debenhams..the staff will be up around 5 or 6 am..ordering taxis, walking to work, getting lifts...

Real Christmas Spirit, eh?

It stinks....

I wrote all over a very bullying poster at work the other day...They were !!!! screaming at their staff about lockers and staff rooms..telling them this and that, demanding....So I wrote a few words too... ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM

BWM - I did put this in my rant above... :0)

"I realise there ARE good employers out there, but sadly, at least down here in the West Country, they are few and far between."


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:25 PM

Nice that you were a Miner one upon a time Willie, even nicer for you that you got over that. My Nan did the same once she moved South and discovered hostess trolleys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:49 PM

I think that's called "Traitor" isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:19 AM

Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
"
Oh..and my ex-husband wasn't even PAID for two whole months recently...along with the rest of the workforce....They've finally started paying them again now, but their way of dealing with the distress caused was....to turn off the phones to Head Office....

"... The reason, allegedly, was that the company wasn't being paid by those further down the chain, but no-one has any way of knowing if this is true or not."

Oh, dear, oh, dear. Not happy at all out there, is it.

From being way back on the management side, I'd guess that if payroll wasn't being met the place was as near as dammit on the verge of folding and very lucky to keep going. The things you really, really have to get paid on time are the payroll and central government taxes. If push comes to shove, meeting payroll might buy time a little better than the other, but not a lot in it.

If phones were cut off, I tend to suspect non-payment of telecomms
bill.

If in UK, directors would need to be looking very hard at their legal responsibilities.

Sounds like a very near squeak at the time. Good luck all round.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:23 PM

Here, I may live oop North still, but married a Surrey lass recently. Interestingly, a hostess trolley was on the wedding list and we got one. Ok when there are 12 round the table but the ubiquitous Aga can keep food warm too.

Sorry, where was I.

Oh yeah,   Richard. No, that is not our company, although to start naming names, I may as well use my real name and that would never do. You certainly wouldn't buy me another pint (!) The local councils in the central region (perhaps others too, I really don't know) can and do enact by laws which append to licence to operate a business in their patch. One of which is the link between the council and those representing the local workforce. I love collective bargaining, as it is more transparent and takes less time up for both sides in theory. The upshot in the Modena patch is that pay and conditions are rather much dictated to you by those to whom you pay your rates. The local communist party often wins the frequent elections (this is Italy...) and the rest you can work out for yourself.

Lizzie. Your experiences are not nice, but neither is your slur on all and every employer. Especially as at one end the public sector invents policies every day in order to get a piece of perspex for being a good employer, (ok, hitting the target whilst missing the point...) and at the other end, even benevolent megalomaniacs start out meaning well.....

Tell you what, I like many could rattle on about the antics of some employees, never mind employers. Sadly, on two occasions, my sacking of people has included involving the police, one occasion ending in a custodial sentence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:44 PM

Willie, I am aghast! You mean I bought a northerner a pint?

Modena eh? Not Ferrari then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do the Con-dems want 'hire & fire' back?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:11 PM

"Lizzie. Your experiences are not nice, but neither is your slur on all and every employer. Especially as at one end the public sector invents policies every day in order to get a piece of perspex for being a good employer, (ok, hitting the target whilst missing the point...) and at the other end, even benevolent megalomaniacs start out meaning well.....

Tell you what, I like many could rattle on about the antics of some employees, never mind employers. Sadly, on two occasions, my sacking of people has included involving the police, one occasion ending in a custodial sentence. "


Again, please read my first post, where I said that I KNOW there are *good* employers out there, but trust me, there are many many bad ones around at present. It's a sign of the times, people don't care about each other any longer...

Today I worked my final day in a place where, trust me, the management are shite. The job before that was the same. I rang them up and told them how low staff moral was, but they didn't care, just kept piling on the pressure to meet the 'targets' no matter that were very few customers coming in, in the first place.

Many employers these days do not want to listen to their employees, to the ones 'on the ground'...It's simply a case of 'Do as we tell you!" and that's how it goes..

I have, in the past, a long while back now, actually slept on a settee in Harley Street, during Underground Strikes, so that I was there for the patients in the morning, because the doctors I worked for showed me great loyalty, which I repaid many times over...They didn't know I did that until later, by the way, else they would have offered me a place to stay over in their London own houses..I also decorated their consulting room for them when they both went away on holiday, as I was bored, was up to date with all my work and thought the decorater who quoted for it was ripping them off hand over fist..So I did it myself..and they thanked me for it...They used to tell me to find out what the 'going rate for medical secretaries/PAs was in Harley St. then add a couple of thousand more on top, for a pay rise...so *that* is why they got such loyalty from me, that and the fact they were really decent fellas too...

But no, today's employers, in the main, care little about their staff...All that I have written above is true and can be checked, should anyone not believe me. It's a sorry state of affairs indeed...

And how many miserly employers are going to be jumping on the bandwagon now, paying even less, making up this and that, crying wolf, just so they can siphon off yet more profits whilst keeping their 'workers' in even more poverty?

We have stopped caring, Wil, and that's that...

And replacing people with machines is plain stupid, because from an employer's point of view, he may be saved the hassle of dealing with people, may even make more items, costing him less, making him more profit, but the more you do it, the less people you create who've got any money to buy your robot made product in the first place...

I have no time for most employers these days..they're mean and pennypinching and they do NOT value their staff...

Geez, if I had my own company, my staff would become share in the profits of it. I'd treat them damn well, have a great staff room for them, provide tea, coffee and biccies etc., pictures on the wall, a great place to relax...and I'd ASK them if they'd put all hands on deck at Christmas, not DEMAND. And..I'd make damn sure I thanked them too, giving them great Christmas Bonuses..

I can remember once, as a customer, standing in Somerfields, as was, waiting to pay for my groceries, and hearing how that company had stopped paying their staff ANY Christmas bonus...whilst expecting them all to work longer hours, anti-social hours over Christmas, to rake in the profits...

Scrooge is alive and well and living in The Boardroom of many companies...

And Tiny Tim has many descendants who are being treated in the same way...

Bring on The Ghost of Corporate Christmas Present and get him to introduce The Corporate Bastards to The Ghost of Christmas Future...one filled with heart, compassion and a great deal of thought for others...

A Corporate Christmas Carol


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