BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:59 PM

Yes, oh all-powerful and omniscient one. Do tell us more.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:01 PM

Nothing like the joys of recreational outrage, eh, Greg? And adding religion or politics to the mix makes it even better! ;-) More opportunities to spit bile, hurl personal insults at people who don't agree with your every point, and inject your delicious little dose of pyschotic resentment into the rest of the world. Yessir, it's not easy to resist, is it? Check back through the many Bush threads and read your own postings. You'll get an adrenalin rush that will carry you through the rest of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:43 PM

There are about 40 or 50 more "hate Bush" threads I could refresh

Oh, please do! All of them! That'll be about as pertinent and enlightening as raising this one from the dead.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 01:13 AM

Quite true, Little Hawk...but in this case, The 'Hate Obama' thread was opened by none other but an Obama supporter!!....and if you read the posts so far, the 'opposition, (if you can call it that) is NOT saying they 'hate' Obama!!..and have voiced an opinion very close to your own.....could it be true, that they still don't have a clue...?
I'm afraid so!....They haven't quite got over the FACT that the Vietnam peace movement, and Civil Rights Movement was co-opted by the Democratic Party, and they think that they all identify with each other!!

Now if only they could put that alluring charisma into their music.....


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:46 AM

Refresh! ;-)

Remember when Bush "hate" threads were daily entertainment on Mudcat Cafe? For a whole 8 years!!!! It was sooooo enjoyable for almost all of us...except a handful of Republicans and conservatives who got really upset about it...just like some other people now get really upset about threads criticizing Obama.

Get used to it! Whoever is president at any given time, he is going to get one hell of a lot of criticism for managing the world's most aggressive military empire and the developed world's most irresponsible health care system, etc...

It was Bush then, and certain people here enjoyed tearing him apart every day. Now it's Obama, and those same people are freaking out because the tables have turned and someone is tearing apart their guy every day.

Funny! ;-) Cos I have about the same low opinion of both Bush and Obama. They both got their chance to run the same criminal empire for 8 years, kill a lot of people in distant lands, and play ball with the same criminal banks and corporations. But Obama's there NOW instead of Bush. And THAT's why he's getting the heat now.

There are about 40 or 50 more "hate Bush" threads I could refresh to make the same point: you haters can dish it out when it goes your way...but it seems you just can't take it when it comes back the other way. "Hate" is apparently only okay when it's hate you can agree with.

Bush and Obama are just 2 temporary false faces stuck on the big military-industrial-banking machine that owns both of them. As long as that machine can keep half of you (the American people) hating the other half (by way of the 2-party system) they've got you right where they want you. They smack you with a Republican Right for 4 to 8 years, then wallop you with a Democratic Left for 4 to 8 years, and count you out when the election bell rings the end of each round. Another knockout for the great financial oligarchy, and the CEOs pass around the champagne.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:25 AM

a bunch of folks who live by a ridiculous points of view, and have no respect for a POV that differs from their own, even if uou provide evidence that proves them wrong.

Their problem is they live by a code that says, to hell with truth, "truth" is what WE decide it is.

Douggie would almost be entertaining if he wasn't so pathetic & delusional. A better definition of the BuShite, TeaBagger, Faux News, "Keep Your Government Hands Off My Medicare" crowd would be difficult to find.

He "respects" old T-Bird because they enjoy swimming in the same river of shit. They share the same deep psychosis: a regular cross-Atlantic folie a deux.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:13 AM

The USA is at war with no-one

You're not serious, right? You can't actually brlieve the preposterous bullshit you come up with?

The number of dead along the border with Mexico

I wasn't referring to the recent Mexico business. You obviously know bugger-all about the history & operation of the War On Drugs in the U.S. Study up.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 05:23 AM

""1. The USA is at war with no-one - Fact accept that and move on. For the USA to be at War it requires the approval of Congress no such approvals or Acts of Congress have been passed since the Second World War.""

KOREA? VIETNAM?

Two massive conflicts with opposing armies, in uniform, knocking seven barrels of shit out of each other don't constitute wars in your obviously fuddled mind?

If it waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck..........

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 05:15 AM

""Bullshit, like hell they were. Perhaps you could come up with some instances of Gestapo members being hung specifically for "waterboarding" prisoners, or supposedly mistreating and showing disrespect for a book. But I somehow doubt it. Your statement quoted above is more emotive crap without substance.""

Since the Gestapo, the Nazi secret police, dealt only with spies, enemy agents, and resistance members, all of whom were either in civilian dress, or actual civilians, perhaps you would like to tell me why you think they were hanged.

And where the fuck did I mention a book, or disrespect for a book?

One final question T. Where do YOU draw the line between interrogation and torture?

Sane people normally accept that partial drowning to the point of unconsciousness is a step beyond acceptable interrogation.

Don T.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:56 AM

Actually, I think Dumbya prefers to have others read (and probably write) for him, to avoid taxing his pea-brain.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:43 AM

Wonder if Blair and Bush got together to compare notes on each others memoirs or proof read them first?

However people feel about it most people will see them for what they are but I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stu
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:40 AM

The US has executed Japanese prisoners of war for waterboading:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding - check out the refs for extensive discussion on the subject.

If you agree with our troops and intelligence services torturing people, then you can't really condemn any torture past or present (including that of our own service people and civilians), to do so would be rank hypocrisy. At least have the guts to stand up and say you agree with torture, don't agree with the Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention and that's that. Be manly about it for crying out loud, don't try to hide behind semantics and mealy-mouthed but essentially worthless definitions.

"It's amazing to me that the drubbing liberals took in the recent election does mean anything to them"

Shock news! Not everyone lives in the United States! Time to expand from a rather parochial viewpoint and see the actions of your government in a wider context. Perhaps take on board the views of those living in the rest of the world also have some legitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:00 AM

Know why I admire you, Teribus? Because you are willing to continue to confront a bunch of folks who live by a ridiculous points of view, and have no respect for a POV that differs from their own, even if uou provide evidence that proves them wrong.

Their problem is they live by a code that says, to hell with truth, "truth" is what WE decide it is.

It's amazing to me that the drubbing liberals took in the recent election does mean anything to them. And they are supposed to be the "smart" ones?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 12:07 AM

"comparing either of them with what's going on in Afghanistan and Iraq is really quite idiotic"

The "War on Drugs" GregF compared to Afghanistan and Iraq?

1. The USA is at war with no-one - Fact accept that and move on. For the USA to be at War it requires the approval of Congress no such approvals or Acts of Congress have been passed since the Second World War.

2. The number of dead along the border with Mexico alone in the "War on Drugs" makes Afghanistan look like a picnic. Not really too much coverage of it this side of the pond because it appears to be drug gangs wiping out their competition, i.e. other drug gangs.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:58 PM

"Members of the Gestapo were hanged for doing to captured civilian agents exactly what Bush condoned in Guantanamo."

Bullshit, like hell they were. Perhaps you could come up with some instances of Gestapo members being hung specifically for "waterboarding" prisoners, or supposedly mistreating and showing disrespect for a book. But I somehow doubt it. Your statement quoted above is more emotive crap without substance.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 05:46 PM

The US has been deluged in a War on Poverty and a "War of Drugs" doesn't mean for one minute that the country is actually at war...

The U.S. surrendered unconditionally in the "War on Poverty" with the election of Ron Reagan.

As for the "War on Drugs", I think the thousands who have been shot & killed might take exception to your statement, Teezer.

That said, comparing either of them with what's going on in Afghanistan and Iraq is really quite idiotic of you, if not unexpected.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 05:12 PM

"" No Don the absence of uniform and the other details specifically mentioned means that the person captured cannot be classified as a Prisoner of War and that as such the rules relating to treatment of POW's cannot apply.""

Weasel words T. A mealy mouthed attempt to justify a crime against humanity by blaming the victims for the misdeeds of their captors.

Torture is torture no matter who or what the victim may be.

Incarceration of non POWs such as spies and terrarists may well be justified. So to may interrogation, but what you advocate, and what Geedub and his minions ordered, sanctioned, or carried out cannot and should not ever be justified.

Members of the Gestapo were hanged for doing to captured civilian agents exactly what Bush condoned in Guantanamo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:38 PM

It's not easy to win a heart or a mind when your thinking is being done by a Dick.



A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:24 PM

Thread Title: GW Bush IS a war criminal!

Prove it?

Because he sanctioned waterboarding of a captured terrorist who could just as well might have been shot out of hand in accordance with the Geneva Convention that you say GWB violated

Good luck with that boys, but of course you do realise that unlike the "Impeachment" thing this time you do actually have to prove that:

A. A law was broken

B. That hard evidence exists that those you wish to bring before the courts were actually physically involved.

If A is achieved the charge would be assault.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:18 PM

The US has been deluged in a War on Poverty and a War of Drugs doesn't mean for one minute that the country is actually at war which it has not been since the end of the Second World War - Fact live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 02:15 PM

Start with Mad Dog Wolfowitz and Shotgun Cheney- Dumbya was only doing what they told him to do, like a good little boy.

Of course, that doesn't really make him any less culpable, except to the ignorant & delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 01:47 PM

Bush is not only culpable for endorsing waterboarding, he is responsible for destroying Iraq culturally and physically , and killing tens of thousands of civilians. The latter may be more reprehensible than the former although the pattern is consistent. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Condoleza Rice and Colin Powell should also be held accountable.

Prison sentences for all of them would be justified.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 10:39 AM

I'll settle for torture being a crime against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 10:24 AM

You are dodging the point, sea-lawyer. For the purposes of PR the United States has been deluged with the "War" on terror and the "War" in Iraq and the "war" in Afghanistan. Military operations other than war don't count?

That is specious, and self-serving, Mister T. We act, talk, operate and spend on a war footing, and you defend torture because "it isn't REALLY war...". What drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 10:00 AM

Ineffective Don?? On a number of occasions well documented in history it has been remarkably effective.

"So Teribus, by YOUR standards there is no such thing as torture if the subject is not wearing a uniform."

No Don the absence of uniform and the other details specifically mentioned means that the person captured cannot be classified as a Prisoner of War and that as such the rules relating to treatment of POW's cannot apply.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 06:52 AM

""Was he a recognised combatant?" - No he was not

"Wearing the uniform of a duly constituted and recognised power that was party to the conflict?" - No he was not

"Had the person being waterboarded fulfilling the above requirements been taken into capitivity?" - None of the above requirements had been met.

"What was the subject of his interrogation?" - Reasons surrounding his capture.

Squeeze the fucker til the pips squeak.""

So Teribus, by YOUR standards there is no such thing as torture if the subject is not wearing a uniform. You can do whatever you like to him, and it is fully justified (notwithstanding the fact that most of the civilised world considers it a crime against humanity).

Tell me Teribus, where DO you draw the line?

Thumscrews?
The Rack?
Red hot irons?

Truly, you do have one of the finest and most incisive minds of the twelfth century.

Not only is torture a crime against humanity, and morally and ethically indefensible. It is also INEFFECTIVE!

When you apply it, you find that you have lots of guilty men on your hands, since the majority will tell you whatever you want to hear, just to make the pain go away.

Absent the question of uniform, you are also wrong about whether the US is at war.

Straight from the lips of your revered and heroic ex leader.

The United States President, George Bush, declared war on the "Axis of Evil", and war on "terror".

So, like it or not, in the mind (if you can call it that) of your hero, the US was, and still is, fighting a war.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:54 AM

Basic misconception there Amos:

"we are at war" Last time I looked neither the USA, the UK or any of the other 43 countries supporting the UN effort in Afghanistan are "at war" with anybody.

"To qualify under the Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must have conducted military operations according to the laws and customs of war, be part of a chain of command, wear a "fixed distinctive marking, visible from a distance" and bear arms openly. Thus, uniforms and/or badges are important in determining prisoner-of-war status; and francs-tireurs, terrorists, saboteurs, mercenaries and spies do not qualify."

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 06:47 PM

Is torture a violation of the Geneva Convention, or is it not?

You seem to find it convenient to cherry pick bits of the scene--we are at war, but the other side are rag tag terrorists. So we can operate on the rules of war, flat-out effort, but we can treat them as covert operatives and not soldiers because they don't wear uniforms. Therefore we can torture them at will without fear of legal recrimination. Is that the deal?



A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 06:37 PM

Interesting contribution GregF but about par for you. It is the reason I do not pay attention to anything you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 06:14 PM

Bugger Off, T-bird.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:22 PM

"In 1947 the US sentenced a Japanese officer to 15 years for waterboarding."

And the circumstances were what?

Was the man waterboarded a bona fide "Prisoner of War" as defined by the Geneva Convention?

Was he a recognised combatant? Wearing the uniform of a duly constituted and recognised power that was party to the conflict? Had the person being waterboarded fulfilling the above requirements been taken into capitivity? What was the subject of his interrogation?

My guess is that in the instance you are talking about the answers to the questions above would be as follows:

"Was he a recognised combatant?" - Yes he was

"Wearing the uniform of a duly constituted and recognised power that was party to the conflict?" - Yes he was

"Had the person being waterboarded fulfilling the above requirements been taken into capitivity?" - Yes he had been

"What was the subject of his interrogation?" - Anything other than anything relating to circumstances of his capture and the interrogation itself is illegal.

Now my guess is that in the last instance the "interrogation" had nothing whatsoever to do with the prisoners capture and it was just carried out to enforce "camp discipline" in which case the bastard who dished out the punishment deserved every single second of his 15 year sentence.

Now translate that to your Gitmo mob:
"Was he a recognised combatant?" - No he was not

"Wearing the uniform of a duly constituted and recognised power that was party to the conflict?" - No he was not

"Had the person being waterboarded fulfilling the above requirements been taken into capitivity?" - None of the above requirements had been met.

"What was the subject of his interrogation?" - Reasons surrounding his capture.

Squeeze the fucker til the pips squeak.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:13 PM

Interesting how Republican administrations seem to be fond of disappearing tapes.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:45 PM

Ah, Jeeze, Jack, there ya go again with them pesky FACTS!

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

In 1947 the US sentenced a Japanese officer to 15 years for waterboarding.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:30 AM

What "International Law" are you referring to Amos?

DougR is quite correct "waterboarding" is not a crime, if it were to be viewed that way it would rank as "common assault", and only those directly involved "hands on" could be charged. It would not even merit ABH, and certainly would not be classified as GHB.

No George W. Bush & Co will not be charged with War Crimes neither will Tony Blair or any of the leaders of the 38 countries that participated in the Invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

But never mind Amos you could start up a thread similar and as pointless in nature as your Impeachment effort of a couple of years ago. The outcome and the result will be the same.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

Go back to sleep, Douggie.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:27 PM

As far as I know, waterboarding is not a crime. If it was, GWB would aleady have been legally challenged. He has not. Just a bunch of left-wing liberals think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 11:41 AM

Bobert: "
So ya'll shouldn't be surprised about Georgie... I mean, look at Bush v Gore???"

Yeah, Not much choice there! Both are frauds!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:47 AM

Jeeze, DOug, stick to the issue, huh?

Talk about a forlorn hope.........

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:31 AM

Jeeze, DOug, stick to the issue, huh?

Was the torture resorted to (waterboarding) a violation of international law concerning the conduct of war? Or was it not?

If it was a violation of law, who should be said to have committed the violation?

If it was not, how was it not?


A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:07 AM

Well, it ain't as if Georgie woke up one mornin' thinkin' that a life of crime would make a good career choice...

All ya' gotta do ism ask the residents of Arlington, Texas who Georgie and some of his mob buddies stuck the citizens with the expense of building a stadium for the Texas Rangers baseball team and then sold the whole she-bang to other investors (stadium included) and walked away with well over $100M??? But, it was perfectly legal because the crooks wrote the loopholes into the law to allow such immoral transactions...

But wait!!! Georgie wasn't done yet... His share of the theft was over $10M which Georgie misreported on his tax returns which cost the US tax payers another couple million but...

...rich kids like Georgie never have to pay for their sins so the IRS never audited him even though it was brought to light???

Go figure???

So ya'll shouldn't be surprised about Georgie... I mean, look at Bush v Gore???

The man has a mentality that laws are for, ahhhhh, other people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:32 AM

100....................War crimes....At least!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:26 AM

If GW is a war criminal, go arrest him, or stop bitching!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 12:47 AM

"Truth Out", huh, Amos. Where did you dig up this obscure blog? It's not biased, right? Who says so? "Truth out"?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:19 PM

Just a little historical comment here...

The USA committed massive war crimes against the indigenous population in the Phillipines following the defeat of Spain in the Spanish American War. At least 100,000 Filipinos were slaughtered for attempting to seek independence from US military rule.

No one in the USA was ever tried for those war crimes.

Winston Churchill ordered the slaughter of a great number of Middle Easterners in the area now called Iraq when they resisted the British colonial occupation. The British were there for the oil. Tribesmen were strafed and bombed by the RAF and massacred en masse.

Winston Churchill and the RAF were never tried for those war crimes.

The USA illegally bombed Cambodia during the Vietnam War, causing the destablization of that society and the eventual emergence of the Khymer Rouge who killed about 1/3 of the population of that country. The Khymer Rouge's main patrons were Red China and (for awhile) the CIA.

Nixon and the American military were never tried for those war crimes.

What on Earth makes anyone think Bush ever will be tried for waterboarding people, invading Iraq, lying about his reasons for doing so, etc???

Not a chance!

Look, people, the wealthy elite that runs the $ySStem does not get tried for war crimes. They OWN the courts and the mass media and Congress and the military and the police. They are not made accountable. And they never will be....unless some future alliance of nations successfully invades and conquers the USA in some future war which we cannot yet foresee or imagine.

Then maybe the American ruling elite will be put on trial. But short of that happening?   Never.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM

Bush is in violation of International Law. I hesitate to think what would have happened to him at the Nuremberg Trials.

His book is a pack of lies.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:46 PM

Truthout remarks the following:


"In his memoir (which some wise people have already moved in bookstores to the CRIME section) George W. Bush admitted that he authorized that detainees be waterboarded, tortured, a crime under US and international law.

Bush's crime confession coincides with reports that no one will face criminal charges from the US Department of Justice for the destruction of 92 CIA videotapes which contained interrogations using waterboarding.

Where is the accountability for these crimes?

Also see: "Special Prosecutor Declines to File Criminal Charges Over Destruction of CIA Torture Tapes"

Bush and other criminals will be brought to justice if the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights (ECCHR) have their way.

CCR and ECCHR jointly intervened into a criminal investigation in Spain examining the role of former civilian and military officials from the Bush administration in the commission of international law violations, including torture. The investigation is ongoing and includes the crimes that Bush admitted he authorized.

CCR and ECCHR made it clear that they are committed to pursuing criminal accountability and Bush's confessions help. In a joint statement they said:

    "As Attorney General Eric Holder stated during his confirmation hearings, waterboarding is torture. Calling these acts what they are, torture, is not the result of differing legal 'opinion,' as Bush states; it is a matter of law. Harold Koh, the State Department Legal Adviser, confirmed this in Geneva last week, stating during the U.S. Universal Periodic Review that "the Obama administration defines waterboarding as torture as a matter of law" and it is not a 'policy choice.'

    "There are no circumstances or excuses - including 'national security' - under domestic and international law that allow for the use of torture. And there is an obligation to investigate and prosecute torture.

    "Bush's decision to authorize torture and other illegal acts against detainees held in U.S. custody led to the use of torture at Guant‡namo, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in secret prisons by U.S. forces, and contractors, certain allies and the national forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. His decision led to Abu Ghraib.

    Do you like this? Click here to get Truthout stories sent to your inbox every day - free.

    "Debates as to whether or not waterboarding of detainees led to intelligence or make the nation 'safer' are not relevant questions. The only valid question is: can we torture? The answer is no.

    "Without accountability it is impossible to ensure that such actions are never authorized by any future president or other U.S. official. No immunity protects Bush from prosecution for acts which violate federal and international law. The Pinochet precedent demonstrates that the law eventually catches up with former presidents - even those who flout their impunity.

    "Bush states that accountability 'would set a terrible precedent for our democracy.'

    "We answer that not doing so is failing our democracy - yet again. We therefore urge the Obama administration and the Department of Justice to act upon their recognition that waterboarding is torture as a matter of law, to investigate and prosecute acts of torture and other serious violations carried out by officials of the former administration, including George W. Bush.

    "But we will not wait any longer for the Obama administration to act - we will continue seeking justice and accountability under the principle of universal jurisdiction and as counsel in the ongoing investigation in Spain."

Sell those books, George W., you may need the money for legal fees yet!"

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:41 PM

Amos: You are a funny man.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:35 PM

Bruce:

You're getting silly again, old friend. I meant that the reason Obama did not go after Bush's ass is it would have been counterproductive. Not that he couldn't have done it successfully. That much is obvious.


A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

You are both equally irrelevant...in the other's terms. ;-) Matter of fact, most of the people who post here are irrelevant in each other's terms, because hardly anyone comes here to actually listen to anyone else...just to hear themselves talk and get a charge out of that. We are all engaging in the glory of our complete irrelevance vis a vis one another's opinions, and does anyone care? Ha! Ha! It's just like the infantile political debating shows on American TV. Mutual incomprehension underlaid with mutual contempt and a dash of snide indifference on the side...makes for a tasty yet piquant dish that sticks to your ribs for a short time only. Soon you will be back to the dinner table or the idiot box for more.

And while it's all happening, the plutocrats and bankers continue to rule.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:34 PM

Well, I mean you're irrelevant, for one.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:55 PM

Greg F.

YOU don't mean anything, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

Go back to sleep, BeeBee, didn't mean to wake you.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

I think that Obama might think that. I think it would be fair to say that they have a different perspective than the Administration. But they are not charged with trying to clean up the Republican's mess.

I started this thread. I think it is more important that we recognize that he is a criminal, as the country did with Nixon, than to charge and try him.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:28 PM

Amos,

So, in your opinion those calling for Bush to be prosecuted are NOT "people anxious to make constructive progress in bettering things?"

Just wanted to understand what you are trying to say...

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM

Anyone on this forum that suspects that the Obama Justice Department would NOT like to prosecute GWB as a war criminal must be living in a different world. If they had a shred of evidence he is guilty, they would prosecute.


Absolute horsepucky, Doug. Does it occur to you that to start such a prosecution in the midst of a depression with th enation more viciously divided than it has been since 1860 would ruin any chance of constructive progress? Does it occur to you that whether you believe it or not there may actually BE people anxious to make constructive progress in bettering things?

Give me one effin' break, sir.


A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:51 PM

He did put "fair and balanced" in quotes.

We slant the news. You decide!

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:28 PM

""President Bush relied on the legal advice he was provided by John Yoo to authorize waterboarding and other harsh methods.""

Or to put it more accurately, President Bush relied on the money he was paying John Yoo to elicit the response President Bush wanted.


""Anyone on this forum that suspects that the Obama Justice Department would NOT like to prosecute GWB as a war criminal must be living in a different world. If they had a shred of evidence he is guilty, they would prosecute.""

True! If they had the evidence which Bush either destroyed, or had somebody else destroy, they might well have prosecuted, but Bush made sure that the evidence vanished.


""I tell you this because there would be no way to know the interview will take place because you do not watch the "fair and balanced" channel.""

Faux News the "fair and balanced channel"?

I used to think you were just thick, but now I know you are stark raving looney.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM

And he waited until the Republicans held the house to admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:56 AM

Jaysus, Richard - don't confuse Douggie with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:27 AM

Evidence? In his book and in interview after interview he says that he authorised waterboarding. What more is to be said?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 09:25 PM

You're being extremely foolish to assert that the Democratic party structure in Washington would want to prosecute George Bush, Doug!

My God....how unlikely! I laugh with much amusement just imagining it. They don't care about George Bush any longer, they are continuing to prosecute the same wars Bush did, and they pursue essentially the same policy, because they work for the same oligarchy of special interests!

That oligarcy will never prosecute any American president for war crimes any more than the Nazis would have prosecuted Hitler for war crimes. They're all in it together up to their ears.

The Oligarchy plays you like a violin, Doug. They keep you obsessed with the phony old partisan divide, just like they keep your Democratic foes obsessed with it. You fight each other, waste your energy over the partisan nonsense, vote for 2 Oligarcy-owned sets of candidates, and the Oligarchy runs the show just like Tammany Hall once ran New York or like Daley ran Chicago.

Your elections are a joke, both parties are a sellout, and you don't have a real democracy at all. Your vote is a leaf that falls in a forest and no one hears it. It achieves nothing.

But you can't see how you're being played and how your Democratic foes are being played. You both continue to believe the old myths and spin your wheels uselessly cheering for "the home team" when the entire game is fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 09:13 PM

Anyone on this forum that suspects that the Obama Justice Department would NOT like to prosecute GWB as a war criminal must be living in a different world. If they had a shred of evidence he is guilty, they would prosecute.

I realize the Justice Department's ruling, announced today, will not silence those who still believe GWB should be tried as a war criminal. After all, there are still those who believe the world is flat, right Bobert?

Incidentially, although it is quite likely that the TV sets of Mudcatters who hate Bush are impossible to tune to Fox News, on Thursday night at 9:00 PM ET, Bill O'Reilly will interview GWB and I'm sure he will be asked about his decision to approve waterboarding. I tell you this because there would be no way to know the interview will take place because you do not watch the "fair and balanced" channel. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:51 PM

It's not the end of the story, Dougie...

Right now the historians are laying low fir fear of getting waterboarded (or worse) themselves but...

...history will get this one correct...

I wish that the Dems had gone after Bush and his boys afetr the 2008 election but they wanted to play safe and not go that route... Had they known that the Supreme Court was going to usurp democracy with it's activist "Citizens" ruling then I'm sure, if they had to do it over, they would have busted Bush and all the boys... Too late for now... Saved by the Supremes...

But, yeah... Upwards of a million people killed as a result of Bush's wars of choice... History will not be kind to this man...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:28 PM

As much as I think George W. Bush deserves to be prosecuted as a war criminal, the reality of the situation is that any attempt to do so would be met with too much public resistance. Wanna see a bunch of armed rednecks rioting in the streets? I didn't think so. Neither does President Obama.

Prosecute Bush? Forget about it.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:04 PM

Today The Justice department announced that their three year investigation into the theft and or destruction of CIA torture videos will be dropped. No one will be indicted, no one will be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:01 PM

So torture is not torture if your lawyer says it was not torture?

Next time you are charged with a crime Doug, why not try the defence "My lawyer said it was not a crime" and see how far that gets?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:55 PM

Direct Quote from an AP story written by Pete Yost, printed in today's newspapers:
"Re: "No charges in destruction of CIA interrogation videos."

"In January 2008, President George W. Bush's last attorney general, Michael Mukasey, appointed Assistant U.S. Attorney John Durham as a special prosecutor to investigage the videotape destruction (depicting waterboarding and other harsh interrogation). Later President Barack Obama's attorney General, Eric Holder, added to the inquiry the CONDUCT (my emphasis) of the 'harsh' questioning. A team of prosecutors and FBI agents led by Durham has conducted an exhaustive investigation in the matter, said Matthew Miller, chief Justice Department spokesman.

"As a result of that investigation, Mr. Durham has condluded tha he will not pursue criminal charges for the destruction of the interrogation videotapes," Miller said.

"Separately, the Justice Department advised the House and Senate judiciary committees that it had reviewed newly found emails sent by Bush administration lawyer John Yoo and stands by a conclusion that Yoo did not commit professional misconduct in authorizing CIA interrogators to use waterboarding AND (my emphasis)other harsh tactics."

President Bush relied on the legal advice he was provided by John Yoo to authorize waterboarding and other harsh methods.

End of story.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM

All militant empires practice torture of prisoners sooner or later...but they seldom tell their public about it. If they do tell their public about it, they say it was "justifed" for vital security reasons, and most of their public will usually go along with that. It doesn't seem to occur to the public that it might happen to them some day too...at the hands of their own government.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:03 PM

Some time ago I went to a performance by a group called Malinky who sang a piece they had written about the women of Bosnia. Abu Ghraib was in the news, and I thought it needed something, too. This is what came to me.

1. He lay in his bed sleeping easy,
Till the man came and stood at his side,
And fixed him with one grim and glaring eye,
And reached out, and howled out, and cried.

2. "And how did you get past the guards at the door?"
He asked, and he trembled with fear.
"And how did you get through those doors and those locks,
And what are you doing here?"

3. "Oh, you've made me free of your doors," the man cried,
"And you've made me free of what's locked.
And those you command cannot keep away
The men they have tortured and mocked."

4. And he looked at the man standing naked there,
Hands tied, and a bag on his head.
And rolled over and mumbled "I know who you are,
You weren't tortured, because you aren't dead."

5. "And I've had enough of your whinging there,
And I've had enough of your lies.
For I've had enough of attorney's advice-
It's not torture if nobody dies.

6. "And why do you stand with your arms outstretched
As if you were Christ on the tree?
You will learn when you die that my god is not mocked,
When the torments of hellfire you see."

7. "It is one of those torments of hell to stand
With my arms stretched out to the sky.
But the tormentors aren't demons at your command
But men made just like you and I.

8. There are men in that prison, and women too,
Whose souls have been twisted & bent
Whose souls have been misled by that fatal lie
It's not torture if torture's not meant.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

Another thing that Canada deserves criticism for, BB, is harbouring Shane McBride and a large number of other dissolute and irresponsbile young men who lie around, grow and sell weed, avoid work, and commit petty crimes. They also say "eh?" frequently. At least...the ones in Ontario do. And they drink, smoke, and swear!

This is a disgrace. You could call it a cultural crime against the entire world! I think Canada should be censured at the U.N. and made to pay reparations for this, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:30 PM

Still asinine

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

"A. Are you saying it is a war crime to mine asbestos? Seems asinine."

No , it is a crime against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:24 PM

True. Thank God Canada has remained relatively Bieber-free!

By the way, Stephen Harper appears to be reneging on his promise to withdraw Canadian troops from Aghanistan in 2011. Evidently, his American owners (keepers?) have prevailed upon him to reconsider....and like a good little trained dog, he is rolling over and playing dead for them.

He and Ignatieff are also talking about passing a law that would make any criticism of Israeli policy officially "anti-semitic"!

Thus even Jews who criticize Israeli government policy (and there are many who do) will be deemed anti-semites by the government of Canada if Harper and Ignatieff have their way! My, my. More like George Orwell's dark vision every day around here, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

and a terrible Beiber is inflicted on the US.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:00 PM

Terrible things are done to beavers in Canada too, BB. Don't forget that! It's an international disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 12:40 PM

FFS - waterboarding is torture. Which bit of that do you not understand?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

A. Are you saying it is a war crime to mine asbestos? Seems asinine.

B. I don't live in Canada.

C. If I were going to complain about their environmental record, the tar sands do a lot more damage.

D. If drone attack are a war crime then any form of aerial attack of a military target, not on a military base, is a war crime.

E. If you think is is a War Crime then ask your orange buddy to prosecute. Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

Liberals have a real problem with saving lives in London, you know. Can't inconvenience someone just to do that...


But I note NO call for Canada to comply with international law- THAT is predicted to cause 3 million premature deaths over the next 30 years, in the countries to which they export the asbestos- all to save 900 miner's jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:40 PM

Obama a war criminal, Beardedbruce?

By golly, I guess you're right! He sure hasn't been shy about ordering Drone attacks, has he? Big difference, though, between ordering Drone attacks that kill a lot of people and waterboarding which doesn't kill anybody.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 02:07 PM

JtS,

Obama has been ordering the drone attacks- which are a war crime. Ready to call for HIS impeachment and conviction???


Are YOU ready to demand that Canada complies with the international laws requiring them to STOP mining and exporting asbestos? THEY are in violation, and the World Court can convict them by their own admission.


If not, you show a strong indication that you are a bigot and a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 11:34 AM

Just to raise the question, what would the consequences be in Afghanistan if the US were to pack up and leave next month?

A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 10:01 AM

He doesn't mention that his lawyer said so because he and hid people chose lawyers who would say what they wanted to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Beer
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 09:00 AM

Well I must jump in for a moment. I just finished watching the news and GWB was being interviewed about his book. When asked about water-boarding he said that it wasn't a crime because his lawyer said so. Now he is blaming the lawyers. What a weasel.
ad.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

???

I know what is going on next door.


Water boarding prisoners is a war crime. Bush ordered it. Where is the confusion?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,FierceCravin'Bob
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:25 AM

For cryin out loud - give it a rest already. You don't know WTF is going on next door but you all know what's up in Washington DC and China and on and on... war criminal??? Puhleeeze

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 12:06 AM

If you really bealieve that, JTS, how can you advance your case that GWB is a war criminal?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:57 PM

I think the Geneva convention is the one that applies.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:06 PM

Jack, the US (like the UK) is a dualist system, not a monist one. Treaties (at an international level) bind the government, but do not make internal law without local legislation. For UK examples, see the European Communities Act and the Human Rights Act. For a US one see the Berne Convention Implementation Act.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:45 PM

The resolutions from the UN Security Council are not sacrosanct. Remember that at the time, they were also privy to deliberate misinformation or outright lies like that disgraceful display by Colin Powell.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:22 PM

"Invading a country because they "might" have weapons of mass destruction (they didn't) and because they "might" supposedly attack you some day (they were incapable of doing so) is ALSO a war crime, and a much bigger one than waterboarding. - Little Hawk

Iraq was not invaded because it "might" have had WMD - check up on that. That misrepresentation was what MSM told people, they are the ones who "lied" to you.

Doubt that then read UN Security Council Resolution 687, what Iraq agreed to do, and failed to do. Read the UN Security Council mandates for UNSCOM and for UNMOVIC.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:49 AM

Little Hawk - PM
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:50 AM

Yes, 999, there were other countries complicit as well in fighting that war. I didn't bother to mention all of them, but just the major contributors to it. They should probably all pay reparations to Afghanistan, to the extent of their actual involvement in the operation.

I believe the Afghan war was unjustified for these reasons:

He then gives his reasons 1 through to 6, all based on the misconception and myth that the USA is "At War with Afghanistan" of course it is not the USA is at present at war with no-one.

There is other anti-war crowd myth known as "The US Invasion of Afghanistan - No such thing

As far as all but 23,000 US troops assigned as part of US-Operation Enduring Freedom ALL other forces operating in Afghanistan are assigned to ISAF which is a United Nations mandated force and has been from the outset.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:17 AM

Bush and Blair are both war criminals they have gotten away with murder so far especially the young men who went out to Iraq on a lie and got killed or maimed including the little boy who had both his arms blown off. And Blair had the cheek to go and turn Catholic what a hypocrite. I would love to be a fly on the wall when he enters the confessional box.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:08 AM

Doug, what I am saying is that the USA is morally bound to pay attention to world courts...just as Mussolini was morally bound to listen to the League of Nations when he was condemned for invading Ethiopia. He did not listen. The USA doesn't listen either. And for the same reason. When you're exceedingly arrogant and sure of your own strength you don't listen to anyone, you just do whatever you want to. Same goes for Israel. Or China. They do whatever they want to do, regardless of what the world says about it.

This is typical of all aggressive empires, not just the USA, so I am not surprised by it.

Yes, hell will freeze over before the USA shows respect to anyone else's judgement but its own...and again, I am not surprised. It's exactly what I would expect.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:22 AM

The US is bound by the treaties it signs Doug.

Are you saying that Congress speaks with forked tongue?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:20 AM

Sorry, L.H., but you're wrong. The U. S. is not bound by any world courts of any kind. The U.S.of A., relies on OUR Supreme Court to determine whether an issue brought before it is legal or not.

And incidentially, hell will freeze over before the U.S. bends to any court other that our Supreme Court.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:42 PM

Righto. Your detail corrections are correct, artbrooks. Thank you. The point I was making remains the same in any case. The USA clearly feels that it is above the law...unless the USA makes the law. This is not unusual. All conquering empires have always looked at it that way. That doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with them.

By the way, the USA is in any case guilty of terrorist attacks, and has been for a very, very long time. You can go all the way back to the 1700's for that, when the victims of USA terrorism were usually North American Indians...later it was Mexicans...still later, Filipinos...and more recently a large variety of Latin Americans, Southeast Asians, and Middle Easterners.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:29 PM

The International Court of Justice found that the US violated international law during the covert war in Nicaragua. It did not find the US guilty of terrorist attacks. The US did not ignore the ruling - it withdrew from compulsory World Court jurisdiction. Right or wrong, facts are always a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 02:17 PM

The US Supreme Court is a paid political servant of the US empire, Doug. Outside of your borders it has no more moral or legal authority or respect in the world than the top judges of the Third Reich had outside their imperial borders during WWII. It's a tool of your executive office, just like Hitler's or Mussolini's judges were tools of their executive office.

The USA doesn't own this world and is not in a position of any kind of moral leadership whatsoever. Get that through your head. The USA does NOT get to unilaterally declare what is a war crime and what isn't. The World Court does that. The World Court found the USA guilty of terrorist attacks on Nicaragua during the 80s...the USA ignored their ruling on that. The USA is an outlaw nation in the eyes of the world, and has been so for decades now, but no one can arrest this outlaw, because he is too heavily armed and would simply kill the arresting officers.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 02:06 PM

Bush isn't the only one. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and those in the Bush camp must be included.

The US Supreme Court over the years has hardly shown itself to be a sacrosanct body.
It is capable of injustice as any legal body. Dred Scott. Slavery. You can site case after case and now Citizens United. (A criminal decision).

Also, Obama has Blackwater and other defense contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan
and they are war criminals as well.

Also, the soldiers that have their fingers cut off of Iraqis and Afghanis as trophies.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:03 AM

So if those who engage in/sanctions war crimes/torture say it isn't torture then everything is fine????

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 02:24 AM

Doug - can you really intend to assert that repeatedly drowning someone to the point of unconscious is not torture?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:18 AM

JTS: When did the U.S. Supreme Court rule that water boarding is a war crime? I must have missed that.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:53 PM

IMHO it was precisely because of the fear of being caught that the US refused to recognise international jurisdiction over war crimes.

But the UK may also be in it up to our elbows

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/06/iraq-prisoner-abuse-court

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:03 PM

I heard that it cost around $50,000,000 for each Talibani killed..

I'll take that $100 bet Bruce, providing GW sets foot in Venezuela, Cuba, Spain or Mohawk Territory

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:28 PM

I'm pretty sure that The Justice Department could charge him without the House's approval.

Talk to your local CIA, BATF, FBI etc. agent, and you will be informed that no Federal officer or agent can be prosecuted for any action performed "in the line of duty" without a separate and individual "enabling Act of Congress" (both houses) authorizing prosecution or a civil suit.

Only the agency for which the person acts can generally impose "disciplinary action."

The details get a bit hazy; but that's what the agents themselves are taught as part of their training.

Additionally, there are other "fuzzy words" that give a former President all the "rights and privileges of office" after "being retired" with the exception of signing the bills. Prosecution (in the US) would be very difficult without the full cooperation of Congress, and even then it's a bit muddled since impeachment has never been deemed applicable to former office holders so the rules are unknown.

Whether it should be done is one question. Whether it can be done (in or by the US) is NOT a simple matter.

John

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM

i can see a case for invading afghanistan, i wouldn't have done it , or voted for it , but t hey were openly harbouring bin laden and other active islamic fascist militants. iraq on the other hand was a war crime from start to finish. the real rigures for civilian deaths and the total disregard for the cultural icons and the resources of the country are appaulling.   robert fisk --likely the only realyy independant journalist out there-- did bagdad morgue body counts for civilians and if extrapolated over the whole country would ammount to seven hundred thousand dead, and that was a few years ago.

he abolished habeaus corpus --without a whimper, and violated the constitution in the use of executive authority. the worst such abuse since the aforementioned andrww jackson--a war criminal and genocidal racist if there ever was one for what he did to the cherokee and other natives up rooted on the trail of tears. however america never self examines.

it would be nice if bush could be charged internationally but i don't think america recognizes the authority of the war crimes commission over their citizens.

the total fantasy that many american are living in now got them to vote for a party that nackrupted their country in an illegal and criminal war and left the mess for obama is amazing, but chris hedges has it right. america is an empire os illusion. it looks like it will take two more crashed before people wake up and see that the people they are turning to to cure the problems are the cause of the problems.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:52 PM

Invading a country because they "might" have weapons of mass destruction (they didn't) and because they "might" supposedly attack you some day (they were incapable of doing so) is ALSO a war crime, and a much bigger one than waterboarding. It's aggression, and aggression is illegal under international law. It is probably the ultimate crime of all crimes. It is the key crime that was committed by Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Fascist Japan in WWII.

Bush is a war criminal. So is Tony Blair. The millions of people in the USA and UK who protested against that war were betrayed by their elected leaders, Bush and Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:40 PM

Before you get your panties in a wad with "ifs" up your but.

See if you can follow this Doug.

Waterboarding is a war crime.
Bush ordered waterboarding.
In the military command structure ordering a crime is the same as committing it. (remember the NAZI trials)
Bush is a war criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

The only way to "get" Al Qaeda is to address the great socio-political issues and massive injustices that gave rise to people like Al Qaeda in the first place. Otherwise that snake will just keep growing new heads and finding new bases of operation.

Doug - The Democrats and Republicans are the two halves of a single political entity whose combined purpose is perpetual rule and whose game is phony elections that don't mean shit, because the corporate lobbyists who fund the Duopoly are the one who really run the country. NO, Obama would most certainly NOT want to prove that George Bush is a war criminal, because such a precedent would strike at the heart of what that Duopoly is all about, would damage public confidence, and would imperil both parties in the future. It is imperative for the $ySStem that both parties continue to have credibility and that the USA never take responsibility for its war crimes against other nations or admit to being an aggressor.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:24 PM

Kendall: Do you think for one minute that if it could be proven that GWB is a war criminal Obama and his crew would not have been on it like flies on you-know-what.

Maybe a more appropriate thread title would have been: "I think GW Bush IS a war criminal."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:04 AM

Me too.

If only we had gone into Afghanistan with the proper resources and stayed til we got Al Qaeda and rebuilt some infrastructure before being forced to react to a Taliban resurgence.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:03 AM

`Sorry. Italics got screwed up somehow.`

Thanks for saying that, LH. Thought my eyes were acting up again.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:59 AM

I will be happy as a pig in shit when our troops are home. ALL of them.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:55 AM

Sorry. Italics got screwed up somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM

Kendall: Don't expect anything from Douggie but throw-away irrelevant one-liners. That's as cerebral as he gets.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:50 AM

Yes, 999, there were other countries complicit as well in fighting that war. I didn't bother to mention all of them, but just the major contributors to it. They should probably all pay reparations to Afghanistan, to the extent of their actual involvement in the operation.

I believe the Afghan war was unjustified for these reasons:

1. 911 was not an act of war by one sovereign nation against another...it was a criminal act by a small group of conspirators who operated independently of any sovereign government or nation...and whose plans were not sanctioned by any sovereign government or nation.

2. Therefore, the response to 911 should not have been a military invasion of Afghanistan, it should have been a criminal investigation to gather evidence, find the planners and perpetrators of 911 who were still living, and arrest and try them. The government of Afghanistan was very likely just as astonished as anyone else when 911 occurred. They did not plan it, and it was certainly not in their interests that it should have happened.

3. 911 may have been partially planned, aided, and abetted by various Black Ops and government people in the USA. There is much evidence which seems to suggest that (although that evidence is disputed, naturally). There is an association of New York firefighters and survivors of 911 who believe that the 2 towers and building 7 were brought down by controlled demolition...not just by being hit by airplanes. If they are right, and they may be, then the war on Afghanistan was an opportunistic and fraudulent war designed to divert attention from the real planners of 911 and secure imperial objectives in that region...such as controlling an area of strategic passes to Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, and the Caspian region....an area that major empires have repeatedly tried to occupy and control. I do not believe that 911 was even the real cause of a war in Afghanistan, I think it was the excuse....America's Reichstag Fire, in effect.

4. You do not attack an entire country because some people hidden in some training camp out in the boondocks plan and launch a criminal attack on the other side of the world. I'll give you an example: the USA has a number of camps where the CIA trains paramilitary forces and saboteurs and assassins who are then sent down to Latin America and other parts of the world to fight dirty wars, topple governments, murder thousands of people, and change regimes. That's terrorism. NO ONE has invaded and attacked the entire USA because of these repeated acts of terrorism that emanate from the USA, even though they ARE (secretly) sanctioned by the US government. The Afghan government did not sanction the 911 attacks, did not plan them, and did not want them. It is insane to attack Afghanistan, the nation, because a few Saudis and other Arabs had a camp somewhere in Afghanistan and may have planned 911.

5. The Afghan government offered to arrest and try Bin Laden if the USA would provide evidence that he had planned 911. The USA ignored that offer, because the USA had no intention of avoiding fighting a war of occupation in Afghanistan, a war which the USA had been planning for some time before 911 even happened. 911 was the catalyst to get the American public to a agree to that war, and it worked beautifully.

6. The whole world felt tremendous sympathy for the USA right after 911. I know I did. So a lot of countries were easily convinced to join a coalition to help the USA in its war. They were suckered in when they did that. The war was unjustified. It should never have happened. International police work should have been used to thoroughly investigate 911 and track down those responsible and put them all on trial. That's what you DO when you have been attacked not by a navy, army, and air force...not by a sovereign government or nation, but by a little group of conspirators supposedly using boxcutters!

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:51 AM

`That's war reparations to be paid by the USA, Canada, and the UK to Afghanistan, and war reparations to be paid by the USA and the UK to Iraq.`

LH, you are screwing up your view of history, a topic or subject with which you are usually fairly accurate. The war in Afghanistan is a NATO war, not a US, Canada, UK war. No offence.

As a btw, I notice there are no takers on the C note. Shit, guy can`t make a buck these days.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:41 AM

Doug, remember when Nixon said, "If the president does it, it's legal"? We who see the truth are pathetic? How?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:00 AM

Splitting the Sky actually tried to arrest George Bush for this very crime, making a Citizen's Arrest whilst Bush was arriving to give his after dinner speech at $1400 a head, in Calgary...

STS was arrested. Bush got to have dinner and make loadsa money. STS was sentenced to one year's probation and a $1000 fine to be given to a charity of his choice, providing his probation officer approved...He chose '1000 Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth'...His PO did *not* approve, so STS was preparing to go to prison over this, although I hope his friends have now talked him out of doing this...

Here's the entire story in 7 parts, all of which are on Youtube...

'Arresting Impunity' - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:53 AM

I see what you mean Bobert, but there are too many innocents getting killed and maimed.
The use of drones is an attempt to "sanitise" the slaughter...to hide the unacceptable.

Look into the future and what do you see?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:11 AM

You folks are pathetic.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:59 PM

The bombing worked for Clinton against Serbia. He got no credit for that, probably because NATO was helping Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:55 PM

Not too sure what Obama's base is anymore... Seems that the young folks ain't all that interested and ol' 60s lefties like me ain't all that interested either. Yeah, my first choice is to get out...

However, I am not the Commander in Chief so I am just commenting on tactics in a war that I'd rather we not be in... Using drones is the best of the bad... I mean, when you fight a conventional war there are more military casualties on both sides and more civilian casualties because of the shear number of live rounds being fired...

Military Science 101...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:50 PM

Perhaps. American presidents hardly dare to back off from a war, after all, without declaring an official "victory" first (even if it's not a real victory at all...it will still be called a victory and it will also be called "peace with honor"). If they back off from a war without declaring victory first, they might be accused of "cutting and running", and that's just unthinkable! The other party would crucify them! The leaders of all great conquering empires face that same problem. Once "in", it's tremendously difficult to get "out". Ask the Germans about that... It's a lot like rape, but it's far more difficult to terminate the act of war.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:18 PM

No of course not.

Obama is doing it to please his base and get re-elected.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:10 PM

Yeah, I've heard what the plan is, Jack, but I don't buy it. Not for a moment. Maybe Obama buys it...I can't say for sure about that.

The USA, as far as I'm concerned, is morally obligated to evacuate any and all countries that it has illegally invaded and garrisoned on false pretences of "defense", and that includes Afghanistan.

Canada, likewise, is complicit in this aggressive war and occupation policy, and I criticize my own country's government and that of the UK equally stringently in this matter. We are morally obligated NOT to invade and occupy countries that did not, have not, and could not attack us even if they wanted to. We are morally obligated also to pay them very large war reparations for what has been done to them by our war policy. That's war reparations to be paid by the USA, Canada, and the UK to Afghanistan, and war reparations to be paid by the USA and the UK to Iraq.

Dennis Kucinich agrees with me on that. So does Ron Paul, I think. The US government, however, will never agree to it, because they are incapable of admitting to being an aggressor and a war criminal. So, I fear is my own government, and the UK. Not one of them has the guts or honesty to do that. They would only do it, as Germany did, after being defeated and occupied themselves and forced to do it by the victors, and that's obviously not going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 08:40 PM

The plan is to try to train up the Afghan security forces so that the country does not slip back into chaos.

Obama plans to clean up the mess and then leave. I am not sure that we can clean it up, but we are morally obligated to try.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:43 PM

We don't have to stay there, and Obama has decided to continue it, enlarge it, and make it his war. Bad decision, in my opinion. Canada made the same mistake, because our Prime Minister is nothing but a lackey for corporate America, but I believe we are scheduled to finally withdraw our troops from this very unpopular war sometime next year.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:35 PM

Yeah, he should just send kids over the hill with their M-16's a' blazin' to get shot up like paper targets at the Thursday night turkey shoot...

Hey, if we gotta stay there, Ake, which I'd rather we not, then drones cause the least loss of life on both sides of any available options...

BTW, Obama didn't call up this war or have you forgotten???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:34 PM

One soldier was court-martialed during the Vietnam war for waterboarding a prisoner. Was he sentenced to prison? Citation, please.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:26 PM

Mr Obama also qualifies, for his ratcheting up of "drone warfare"

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 07:02 PM

And bears shit in the woods...

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:42 PM

Just one of many untouchable bastards who've got enough clout to avoid the consequences.

It's always the small fry that carry the can.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:39 PM

"Tough interrogation". It's torture, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:25 PM

Well, yeah, sure he's a war criminal. And he's not alone. Dick Cheney, Tony Blair, and a whole lot of other people are war criminals too, but none of them will ever be prosecuted for it. Was Julius Caesar prosecuted for conquering Gaul? Was Truman prosecuted for A-bombing not just one, but TWO cities in Japan? They'd no doubt have A-bombed 3 cities if they'd had another bomb handy at the time. Fortunately, they did not. (A-bombs were not easy to make in those early days...)

Then there was Andrew Jackson. Major war criminal against Native Americans. Never prosecuted for it. Then there was President Polk...war criminal who launched an opportunistic war against Mexico in 1846 for no other purpose than to get California...and the other geography that lay between California and Texas.

The elite in the USA do not pay for their war crimes. Don't expect Bush to.

Those comments are directed at American history, Jack, as an observation on American history, not at you personally.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:12 PM

Well, it has been the position of the Obama administration to not investigate or prosecute Bush or any of his people... I thought that was a good thing even tho George Bush and a bunch of his folks wouldn't fair too well under oath... Now that Mitch McConnell has come out and stated that the Republicans number 1 goal is to make Obama a one-term president coupled with the fact that the Repub are swimming in money for 2012 I'd have to change my position...

Yeah, if the Repubs want to just play games while the American people go without jobs then I'd welcome Bush being brought up on "war crimes"... I mean, he did call up at least one unjustified war and another which was highly suspect...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

I'm pretty sure that The Justice Department could charge him without the House's approval. I'd love to see him cop a plea. Or at least apologize to Abu Gharib convicts for not having the guts to stand with them.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:46 PM

The book didn't come out until the house was in Republican hands. Nothing will happen because they don't want it to. The Dems decided to get something done, not waste time to litigate and jail the culprits who worked with Bush, and now the culprits have a couple of years to take a deep sigh of relief that they're off the hook.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:22 PM

I got $100 that fuck all happens to Bush as a result.

(First taker only.)

Subject: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 04:16 PM

From MSNBC, and Bush's book.

WASHINGTON — When then-President George W. Bush was asked to approve a tough interrogation technique known as waterboarding on September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he wasted little time in deciding.

"Damn right," he said.

US soldiers have gone to prison for waterboarding prisoners. He authorized it. He is culpable.