Is it OK to raise performance standards?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:31 AM

Mo - I'm not sure there is an easy compromise. Folk clubs differ so much.

Of the folk clubs I know best the dartford club has a guest every week. They have a core of people who turn up regardless of who is on. Who can blame them - excellent range of beer and a good choice of main artists. It was Bob Fox last week. They fail to attract many floor spots. Support is done by residents who take it in turn to compare and do the whole evening.

The cambridge folk club have a different audience according to who the main guest is, and they usually have a semi pro act as support for guest nights. They alternate guest nights with open stage and showcase nights. This means quite a lot of work for the organisers as you can not guarentee an audience and covering costs, but they have given an outlet for a number of local and new young acts.

The Rainham ( kent) clubs run on mostly floor singers with the occasional guests. I have not noticed any overt selection at these clubs.

Two of the clubs have had the same people running them for over 30 years. All of the clubs are of some vintage. The pattern obviously works for them, even though the appraoch is quite different.

I have serious concerns about the future of folk clubs in general - (not enough young people prepared to perform or help run them )- but I'm not sure how much this is to do with performer policy or changing attitudes, and I'm not convinced that a change in policy toward floor singers would alter this.

Sorry to be such a pessimist, Mo.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM

In my area there are a range of clubs. Some book a big guest every week with selected support and no floor singers,some are clearly selective, some are participative music sessions, and some are esentially singarounds open to all.
If you want high quality music you attend the concert type club if you want a more interactive social event you attend one of the latter.
One club is never likely to cater for all tastes. If people don't like what is on offer they can go elsewhere or as I and a few friends have done start your own session/club.
john

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:46 AM

GUEST, Wuzzle:
I wonder if the likes of Bob Copper and many of those wonderful people of old would manage to get a floor spot in your club.
What a sad loss for the world   if his wonderful songs and singing and many like him wasn't in it, do you want the modern idea of manufactured music it is all very perfect. But has no soul
Isn't the beauty of folk   just that, real people real life
What happens if everybody doesn't have the same taste in what a performer is, does it make them substandard?

And what happens to people like me who wouldn't dare come to your club in case they weren't good enough, you might end up with to many empty chairs and then another club closes..........

I saw Bob Copper many years ago on several occasions at his club in Peacehaven, and he was always on good form. If you've read about the Copper family life in "A Song For Every Season", you'll have known that the family sang the same songs regularly - at work, at home, in the pub. So they were totally familiar with their music. I'm not making a distinction between amateur or professional or anything in between. Working hard at your music and giving people real pleasure is not making it manufactured - or losing it's soul - while doing it. It's also worth remembering that you don't have to go to a club to sing - you can also go to listen. So, if you don't feel up to performing to the standard set by (consciously or unconsciously) a club for performing, then just go along and enjoy the club anyway.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST, Fido
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:13 AM

It must be wonderful to be so cocksure that you are good enough that you will always make the cut. Some of the time I am good enough. Other times I have royally screwed one (or another) of my best songs.

Some, I am sure, who are cocksure of their virtue are actually much avoided.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:37 AM

Everybody screws a performance - because none of us is perfect! I've never yet done a club performance where I was satisfied with everything I played or sang; and the quest to get it right or make it better never ends. I know very few good musicians in any genre of music who think they get it absolutely right every time.

What I'm ranting against is the concept that not trying hard and not working at your music doesn't matter, and that any old thing will do. I honestly don't believe that and, when I was working professionally in bands outside the slightly cosy world of folk music, we worked bloody hard to make our music good and acceptable - danceable to and listenable. We were taking peoples' hard earned cash and were determined to earn it.

I'm not saying that the world of folk clubs should be as hard-nosed as that, but the applause that you get from giving a good performance in a club, plus the enjoyment you give to other people is, to me, a worthwhile aim. And if you do screw up, well, at least you know you've honestly given it your best shot and that it's not through lack of hard work.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:20 AM

I will not take up too much of your time, as this thread is so long, and, in cases, repetative of others. The poor s*d who started it, wants to finish. Thanks to Linda Kelly who said "close your eyes if you don't like users of song sheets". and Desic who raised the point of keeping songs short on busy nights. When we go and play at venues that haven't heard us, we bring out the stuff we know by heart. The only way we ageing people can learn a song well enough to do that is to do it hundreds of times with the words. My singing partner's recent memory is nbg, and he has to learn stuff by osmosis. Therefore, where sheets are acceptable, we will play more often.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:18 PM

"I wonder if the likes of Bob Copper and many of those wonderful people of old would manage to get a floor spot in your club."
Bob Copper always managed to sing in tune - what's your point?
"It must be wonderful to be so cocksure that you are good enough that you will always make the cut."
Off-form performances have nothing whatever to do with this question; it is simply a matter of whether an aspiring singer has put in enough work to sing the tune and remember the words - are you suggesting that they be given a spot if they are unable to do either or both?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:03 PM

"Is it OK to raise performance standards?"

What are you, some kind of folk fascist?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Joe_F
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:50 PM

I found the generality of the subject line breathtaking.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: thecoombes
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:09 PM

Final words from the poor s*d!

I have no intention to ban those who forget their lines or use music stands, even those with poor rhythm and have trouble singing in tune can still be entertaining. Nor will I see that everyone gets a go - there are other clubs where that happens. It is not an open mic club. Everyone is welcome and I'll try to make the best of the people that turn up.

For those of you opposed to selection please consider - where there are more performers than spots available what is the most appropriate way to decide who gets one ?

Whichever method chosen will be unfair, even first come firt served. Choosing those perceived as better entertainers and those who have not been seen before at least offers more interest for the listener.

Many seem to think that a club must be there primarily for the performers but aren't listeners at least as important ?

Let's all agree to enjoy the music anyway, whatever our differences.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:26 AM

thecoombes has put his finger on it - a concert club should primarily be run for the benefit of the audience, not the performers. Singers' clubs and singarounds are the reverse, and there it is entirely appropriate to encourage novice singers, but anyone aspiring to play support to a professional guest should have reached a certain level of competence. I think he has the right approach, for the type of club he is running.

I also welcome that he is prepared to give visitors priority over regular performers. So many clubs feel they have to let their regulars sing and will only fit in a visitor if there's time left over. As an audience member I would prefer to take a chance on a visitor than listen to a regular (no matter how good) who I heard last week and will hear again next week. As a regular floorsinger, I was always willing to stand aside in the knowledge that I could get a spot next time.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:57 AM

If you are getting enough people to have to make selections then you are probably doing OK, given the limited attendance at many clubs.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:53 AM

If ANY Club is booking Main Guests on a regular basis , the Main Guest deserves a reasonable length of time to present themselves ! On that basis , it is usually impossible to give EVERY possible Floorsinger a spot ! I have beeen(ONLY ONCE) to a club that fitted in EVERY Floor singer , and then asked the paid guest to only do ten minutes to finish the evening !
At Maidenhead on a Guest Night the MC regularly has to apologise to several hopefuls who it wasnt possible to fit in - Please come back on a Singers night , then you WILL get a sing !
As I ssid earler = MC's Perogative rules

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Hesk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:08 AM

I agree with Leadfingers, but I am not sure that the original thread is asking about nights with paid guests.
It would seem that this club is crowded with normal punters. and, therefore, the question is, should the organisor be selective as to who has a spot.
My answer would be to encourage a quick first round, and then be selective in the second.
Then, new visitors have a second go, musicians, or singers, combine in a way suggested by the compere, a strong finisher is chosen and apologies are given to those that time couldn't fit in.
In other words, the second half is stage managed to create an entertainment, and the first half is strictly by rotation.
I must stress that I am only referring to a club that has too many members to fit in two spots each.( Nice problem to have!)

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:25 AM

"Singers' clubs and singarounds are the reverse, and there it is entirely appropriate to encourage novice singers,"
While I appreciate Howard's point, it seems to me that UK folk clubs have to tackle the somewhat eccentric image of people sitting round listening to singers who simply can't sing.
The practice has, and will continue to drive off potential audiences, and it certainly won't attract youngsters, who, whatever I might think of their music, can spot a naff musician a mile off.
The new blood here has come into the music because it now has set itself a standard, and the newbies thrown down the gauntlet by raising that standard even higher.
It is deeply patronising to suggest that setting standards drive people away.
In opening your doors to the public you have committed yourselves to presenting something worthwhile to listen to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: BobKnight
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:49 AM

Let's turn that around - can we afford to let standards get lower? If so, how low does it have to go before people stop coming? Surely we should be trying to raise the performance standards at ALL times.
Even if only for personal satisfaction.

We all go on about attracting new people, but the younger generation are used to hearing the finest sound production in all genres of music, thanks to CD's etc. So, imagine the shock when they go along to a club, and someone, totally unprepared, although it's obviously their turn next, takes ten minutes to get their instrument out of its case, tune it, and leaf through a pile of papers looking ominously like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Next they thrash away at their guitar, banjo, with their chin "glued" to their chest, thus ensuring the words are incomprehensible and inaudable. It's a simple matter to learn words - repetition, or as we call it in the musical world, practice, or rehearsal. That will do it every time. We don't accept poor standards in everyday life, why should we accept it in folk music. You don't have to be professional to have professional standards.

Imagine going into a restaurant - "Hey your meal's not properly cooked yet, but it won't really matter, will it, because we can't be bothered cooking it until it's just right."

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:08 AM

A key word is "club" which can be defined as "An organization composed of people who voluntarily meet on a regular basis for a mutual purpose" Each club will do what suits its members. If the club is not meeting the members needs it will close. If the club thrives irrespective of the standards of musicianship it is meeting the members needs. Live and let live.
john

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: John Routledge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:09 AM

Love your final image Bob.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:09 AM

I've said this before on other threads, but for the benefit of those who missed it then ...

IMHO, there is folk music/song on the one hand, and showbiz on the other. And what distinguishes t'other from which is NOT the source of the music/song, nor yet the style in which it is performed.

Showbiz is what happens when some people are paid for performing and other people pay to hear them. This definition applies even if what is being performed is 100% "traditional".

Folk music/song is what happens when people play/sing to entertain themselves - and anyone else who happens to be around. Nobody pays to listen, and nobody is paid for performing. (Though sometimes non-performing listeners may buy drinks for performers to show their appreciation.) This definition applies even if what is being performed is 100% non-traditional.

So, to the original poster I would say this: if your folk club charges for admission, then you are in showbiz, and showbiz rules apply. People who have paid to come in and listen are entitled to hear the best that you can provide them with. Furthemore, performers who are respected enough to attract paying customers deserve a fair share of the gate money. Performers who are good enough to merit a hearing, but not yet well-known enough to pull in an audience, may get a brief opportunity to display their wares if there's time to fit them in. And for the rest ...

For the nervous newbies who are still learning their trade (and for the enthusiastic no-hopers who will never learn) you may choose to run an open session on another night, with free admission for all.   And if you (and any listeners who may drop by) are really lucky, then some accomplished performes may also come along and participate, just for the fun of it. This will be folk music.

End of sermon.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:45 AM

"Each club will do what suits its members"
In which case, run a 'members only' club and don't disgrace our music by showing it at its worst to anybody who might walk in off the street; and certainly don't ask visitors for money to listen to tunelass droning read from a crib-sheet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:01 AM

I wouldn't return to a session I find a drag. The fun of waiting for someone to work their way through several halting minutes of this or that chord, oops no hold on a moment it's that one, after pleasantly announcing they haven't played the song for twenty years, really isn't. I know several guitarists socially, so if I wanted to listen to someone practicing the chords to something from "Ten Rock'n'Roll Favourites" or some-such, I can always invite myself over to their pad when they do so.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:02 AM

Some interesting points. Who is the "our", how bad does it have to be to be a disgrace and who decides.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:05 AM

Some very good points made. On the subject of music stands I must defend them. Firstly any good music teacher will advise learners to use a stand, and many top pro's request or bring a music stand on guest nights. A music stand properly used should make mo difference to your enjoyment of an open mic night. But as a few people have pointed out plonking big folders on it and then searching for the right piece does take time and annoy people, including hosts like myself. Also much as I agree it's the onus of the performer to be well practised and have the right music, if needed, ready and be tuned up etc, but as a host we can 't know beforehand if someone hasn't had the sense to know all that. Personally we do try to advise people like that once we've seen it, to be better prepared.

But before you go blaming all this on 'newcomers' we have a few professional performers at our club, who variously do not have their guitar out of it's case, then spend valuable minutes tuning it, often retuning again between songs, one duo hardly ever have the right music ready and waste time again on that. And we really can't do mich about that without riskng offending some delicate egos! As I said to a visiting host from another Club recently "it really is like trying to keep a classroom of 5 year olds happy at times"

It's not the glamour and fun it might appear to be running a busy folk club, I do it because I love it but it is hard work. So on behalf of us who often get the blame, I appeal for performers to come as ready prepared as possible, an average two song spot really shouldn't take more than 8 minutes, you'd be surprised how many 'good' performers go way over that! Perhaps Folk Clubs need to become a bit more professional, but would that still be 'folk' ?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,crowister
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:20 AM

A friendly "Okay it's Sue & Bill - oh I see you're getting prepared, we'll come to you next then. John, are you ready?", seems to work.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:44 AM

"Who is the "our",
Traditional music is part of "our" heritage and deserves more than the kicking some people seem to be prepared to stand by and watch it getting.
"how bad does it have to be to be a disgrace"
Tuneless, unlearned unrhearsed and misunderstood. Guest crowsister offers a fairly typical description of how bad it can get (and what is argued for and defended on threads like this)
"and who decides."
Nobody has to decide when it gets that bad, it becomes obvious to anybody without cloth-ears
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:02 AM

I get very annoyed by the conceit of those who decide that they are good enough but others are not. I know of at least one person of whom the truth is the reverse.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:18 AM

Only one?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:27 AM

"those who decide that they are good enough but others are not."

Richard, I find it hard to believe that anyone, including you, would fancy regularly attending a session where contributors don't practice their pieces before performing them. The "I haven't played this for twenty years" quote was from life. Last I heard, that session needed more people..

I don't take issue with people running sessions in any way they want to, it's a free world, but if there are a small core of regulars who can't be jogged into at least practicing their pieces first, then those sessions will obviously die because they will be the only people who do attend. And that is a loss for everyone, including those who have devoted their time and effort to establish the session in the first place.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Crowsister
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:33 AM

"where contributors don't practice their pieces before performing them."

Make that: "don't LEARN their pieces"

I'm sure plenty of people can get along just fine with a piece learned yonks ago.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:42 AM

I would like to think the general movement of my standard of playing is upward.
Possibly a little worse now for not being out and doing it.
Have always been lucky in having kind people around who if they point tout a problem do it in a kindly way and even with help to overcome it.
Every one should be allowed the courtesy of an opinion as to whether they like what you play or not..There are others though...
I have handed my guitar to a few knowledgeable gob shites hoping for a practical demonstration but very rarely received any enlightenment.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: olddude
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:47 AM

OK but what about an open mike, I been to some where the same person keeps performing and very sadly is quite awful and the crowd shows it ... I don't think folks have the heart to ban him but the half hour slot he takes is pretty brutal .. should the owner have standards for an "Open Mike also"

I don't care either way, I submit the question that is all

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:03 AM

We only run concert nights as a general rule with one or two (usually local) support acts.

I have the priveledge of choosing these acts....... we've had quite a few people for who this is their first "gig", but I wouldn't put them on stage if I didn't think there was something about them that the audience can tune into. It wouldn't be fair on the audience or the act.

They're often quite nervous but I can't think of anyone in this category who has let themselves or the club down. Maybe a few fumbles, but this doesn't have to spoil a performance if there is at least a modicum of talent there.

There have been occaisions when newer acts have used crib sheets, which I'd rather not see on stage...... but as long as they can still put their material across I can't get too excited about this.

I like to think that by giving people this experience, we are giving them the opportunity to raise their standards.... we tend to use a stage, lights and often a P.A. Feeling comfortable in this environment is a whole new experience compared with a cosy singaround!

I suppose the general rule is I'm likely to consider someone for a stage spot if they are better than I am..... so the bar is not too high! (p.s. I've never booked myself solo!)

Paul

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:05 AM

"I get very annoyed by the conceit of those who decide that they are good enough but others are not. I know of at least one person of whom the truth is the reverse."
You have claimed this in the past Richard - and received an answer, which you apparently choose to ignore.
Perhaps you could name anybody on this thread who is unable to sing in tune or remember words, and is calling for basic standards to be set
You once stated that higher standards not only should not be set, but should be positively discouraged as they put off the inexperienced singers - perhaps you might find the bottle to repeat it here?
THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANYBODY BEING BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE, BUT RATHER, ABOUT NOT LETTING PEOPLE WHO CAN'T SING LOOSE ON A CLUB AUDIENCE.
YOU MAY NOT THINK FOLK SONG IS WORTH SETTING STANDARDS FOR - OTHERS HERE APPARENTLY THINK IT IS.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:11 AM

There are people who think that Bert Lloyd and Peter Bellamy (to name but rwo) couldn't sing!

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:24 AM

JIm - I've PM'd you the name of the worst culprit.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:43 AM

I'm surprised at Desi C's comment that "many top pros request or bring a music stand on guest nights". So far as I can recall I've never seen a pro use a music stand for their usual performance - the only exceptions I can think of have been for special projects, especially where there is a script to follow, or for particularly complex band arrangements.

The problem is not with stands per se but with people relying on reading from them. In all cases where I have seen a pro using music it's been as an aide memoire - unfortunately the same cannot be said for some amateurs. It is very difficult for this not to both form a barrier with the audience and inhibit the performance.

To pick up a point made by another poster, ageing has nothing to do with the need to repeat a song many times. It demands repeated practice to learn a song, and further practice to keep it ready for performance. In my opinion, knowing you have the words or music to fall back on are an obstacle to getting the song learned properly.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,crowsie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:46 AM

"should the owner have standards for an "Open Mike"

I think that has to be the call of the landlord. Likewise any event on his premises. If half an hour of 'orrible drives custom away, he should probably have a word.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: olddude
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

Hey Tim
we should all be as "a little worse" as you" ...
You are amazing ... don't ever think otherwise !!

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:59 AM

An Amateur practices a song till he knows it , a Semi-Professional practices until he plays it 'Right' and a Professional practices til he CANT play it wrong !
I wont say a thing about prople who dont learn a song at all !!

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 11:39 AM

"There are people who think that Bert Lloyd and Peter Bellamy (to name but two) couldn't sing!"
Both could hold a tune and remember the words (sometimes Bert dried, especially towards the end of his life), but I never saw either of them resort to a crib sheet.
I really think we are talking about people who use the platform to practice - again I find myself totally agreeing with Howard.
IMO those who turn up to sing before they have mastered the basics, and those who are prepared to accept this as acceptible, display a contempt for the music and a disregard for audiences who have made the effort to attend your club - they have a right to be given something reasonable.
Also, singers who have worked at their songs should not be expected to pick up the pieces after intolerably bad singing has naused up the evening.
If organisers are genuinely concerned about helping struggling singers who want to improve, start a workshop, or offer some other sort of practical help.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

IMO those who turn up to sing before they have mastered the basics, and those who are prepared to accept this as acceptible, display a contempt for the music and a disregard for audiences who have made the effort to attend your club

They quite likely ARE the audience and ARE the club.

Anybody who talks about folk club regulars in terms like that is displaying their contempt for their fellow human beings, which matters rather a lot more than attitudes to pieces of music.

Autocratic crap like that from MCs is totally out of line.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:46 PM

Sorry Jack - people turn up at folk clubs regularly or occasionally, do so to be entertained, and people who run clubs take on the responsibility of ensuring that they get what they pay for.
If a group of people get together and are happy to listen to each other's bad singing they are entitled to do so, as long as they do so in the privacy of their own clubs.
Once they start charging at the door they make a committment to whoever might come in looking for a pleasurable evening.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:52 PM

I think part of the problem is that many clubs have to hire a room these days so have to charge admission - usually a £1 or £2 - to both singers and audience on singers nights, to cover the rent. If you then have a guest who charges £200 and your room only takes 30 then you are looking at the best part of £10 for admission.

Do audiences expect a better quality of floor singers as the amount they have to pay rises?
FloraG

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:24 PM

No, why cant people be allowed to play unrehearsed forget their words sing out of tune and make fools of them selves, after all alot of pop singers are crap ,mime to their songs and have no sense of rythym[ dave clark.
the rolling stones were out of tune when they first started.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:35 PM

Do audiences expect a better quality of floor singers as the amount they have to pay rises?

I was discussing this very point with the organiser of a local club just recently. The organiser was adamant that, if the audience at a guest night was paying in the region of £8 to £10 each for an evenings's entertainment, then the right thing to do was to ensure that the whole evening was of value by putting on a few, good quality floor singers as support. At singers' nights at that same club, the same organiser endeavours to get as many performers as possible a spot.

This seems to me to be a sensible and sound practice.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:37 PM

Jack, it all depends on the type of club, or perhaps even the nature of that particular event, since many clubs operate both singers nights and guest nights. If it's a singers' night, singaround, open mic, come-all-ye, call it what you will, then it should be open to all-comers, with the risk that some of them may not be of very high standard - but if the atmosphere of the club is right that may not matter. If it's a concert night then being asked to perform, whether as a paid guest or a floorspot, should be seen as a privilege, not a right.

It's also important that the club is correctly publicised, so that the audience doesn't have mistaken expectations of what is on offer.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

"No, why cant people be allowed to play unrehearsed forget their words sing out of tune and make fools of them selves, after all a lot of pop singers are crap ,mime to their songs and have no sense of rythym[ dave clark.
the rolling stones were out of tune when they first started."

GSS
Had alot of bad news today.
Thanks for the smiles mate.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:03 PM

Anyone been to a club where the support act was better than the paid guest?
FloraG

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:06 PM

Once or twice Flora but it was probably more to do with my taste for shanties than anything else.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:42 PM

"Anyone been to a club where the support act was better than the paid guest?"
Didn't always work out by any means, but I've always tended towards the clubs where guests provided a new face rather than an improvement.
I believe the backbone of any club should lie with a strong residents team and a means of helping new singers develop.
Jim Carroll