Is it OK to raise performance standards?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Hesk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:08 AM

I agree with Leadfingers, but I am not sure that the original thread is asking about nights with paid guests.
It would seem that this club is crowded with normal punters. and, therefore, the question is, should the organisor be selective as to who has a spot.
My answer would be to encourage a quick first round, and then be selective in the second.
Then, new visitors have a second go, musicians, or singers, combine in a way suggested by the compere, a strong finisher is chosen and apologies are given to those that time couldn't fit in.
In other words, the second half is stage managed to create an entertainment, and the first half is strictly by rotation.
I must stress that I am only referring to a club that has too many members to fit in two spots each.( Nice problem to have!)

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:53 AM

If ANY Club is booking Main Guests on a regular basis , the Main Guest deserves a reasonable length of time to present themselves ! On that basis , it is usually impossible to give EVERY possible Floorsinger a spot ! I have beeen(ONLY ONCE) to a club that fitted in EVERY Floor singer , and then asked the paid guest to only do ten minutes to finish the evening !
At Maidenhead on a Guest Night the MC regularly has to apologise to several hopefuls who it wasnt possible to fit in - Please come back on a Singers night , then you WILL get a sing !
As I ssid earler = MC's Perogative rules

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:57 AM

If you are getting enough people to have to make selections then you are probably doing OK, given the limited attendance at many clubs.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:26 AM

thecoombes has put his finger on it - a concert club should primarily be run for the benefit of the audience, not the performers. Singers' clubs and singarounds are the reverse, and there it is entirely appropriate to encourage novice singers, but anyone aspiring to play support to a professional guest should have reached a certain level of competence. I think he has the right approach, for the type of club he is running.

I also welcome that he is prepared to give visitors priority over regular performers. So many clubs feel they have to let their regulars sing and will only fit in a visitor if there's time left over. As an audience member I would prefer to take a chance on a visitor than listen to a regular (no matter how good) who I heard last week and will hear again next week. As a regular floorsinger, I was always willing to stand aside in the knowledge that I could get a spot next time.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: thecoombes
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:09 PM

Final words from the poor s*d!

I have no intention to ban those who forget their lines or use music stands, even those with poor rhythm and have trouble singing in tune can still be entertaining. Nor will I see that everyone gets a go - there are other clubs where that happens. It is not an open mic club. Everyone is welcome and I'll try to make the best of the people that turn up.

For those of you opposed to selection please consider - where there are more performers than spots available what is the most appropriate way to decide who gets one ?

Whichever method chosen will be unfair, even first come firt served. Choosing those perceived as better entertainers and those who have not been seen before at least offers more interest for the listener.

Many seem to think that a club must be there primarily for the performers but aren't listeners at least as important ?

Let's all agree to enjoy the music anyway, whatever our differences.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Joe_F
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:50 PM

I found the generality of the subject line breathtaking.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:03 PM

"Is it OK to raise performance standards?"

What are you, some kind of folk fascist?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:18 PM

"I wonder if the likes of Bob Copper and many of those wonderful people of old would manage to get a floor spot in your club."
Bob Copper always managed to sing in tune - what's your point?
"It must be wonderful to be so cocksure that you are good enough that you will always make the cut."
Off-form performances have nothing whatever to do with this question; it is simply a matter of whether an aspiring singer has put in enough work to sing the tune and remember the words - are you suggesting that they be given a spot if they are unable to do either or both?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:20 AM

I will not take up too much of your time, as this thread is so long, and, in cases, repetative of others. The poor s*d who started it, wants to finish. Thanks to Linda Kelly who said "close your eyes if you don't like users of song sheets". and Desic who raised the point of keeping songs short on busy nights. When we go and play at venues that haven't heard us, we bring out the stuff we know by heart. The only way we ageing people can learn a song well enough to do that is to do it hundreds of times with the words. My singing partner's recent memory is nbg, and he has to learn stuff by osmosis. Therefore, where sheets are acceptable, we will play more often.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:37 AM

Everybody screws a performance - because none of us is perfect! I've never yet done a club performance where I was satisfied with everything I played or sang; and the quest to get it right or make it better never ends. I know very few good musicians in any genre of music who think they get it absolutely right every time.

What I'm ranting against is the concept that not trying hard and not working at your music doesn't matter, and that any old thing will do. I honestly don't believe that and, when I was working professionally in bands outside the slightly cosy world of folk music, we worked bloody hard to make our music good and acceptable - danceable to and listenable. We were taking peoples' hard earned cash and were determined to earn it.

I'm not saying that the world of folk clubs should be as hard-nosed as that, but the applause that you get from giving a good performance in a club, plus the enjoyment you give to other people is, to me, a worthwhile aim. And if you do screw up, well, at least you know you've honestly given it your best shot and that it's not through lack of hard work.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST, Fido
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:13 AM

It must be wonderful to be so cocksure that you are good enough that you will always make the cut. Some of the time I am good enough. Other times I have royally screwed one (or another) of my best songs.

Some, I am sure, who are cocksure of their virtue are actually much avoided.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:46 AM

GUEST, Wuzzle:
I wonder if the likes of Bob Copper and many of those wonderful people of old would manage to get a floor spot in your club.
What a sad loss for the world   if his wonderful songs and singing and many like him wasn't in it, do you want the modern idea of manufactured music it is all very perfect. But has no soul
Isn't the beauty of folk   just that, real people real life
What happens if everybody doesn't have the same taste in what a performer is, does it make them substandard?

And what happens to people like me who wouldn't dare come to your club in case they weren't good enough, you might end up with to many empty chairs and then another club closes..........

I saw Bob Copper many years ago on several occasions at his club in Peacehaven, and he was always on good form. If you've read about the Copper family life in "A Song For Every Season", you'll have known that the family sang the same songs regularly - at work, at home, in the pub. So they were totally familiar with their music. I'm not making a distinction between amateur or professional or anything in between. Working hard at your music and giving people real pleasure is not making it manufactured - or losing it's soul - while doing it. It's also worth remembering that you don't have to go to a club to sing - you can also go to listen. So, if you don't feel up to performing to the standard set by (consciously or unconsciously) a club for performing, then just go along and enjoy the club anyway.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM

In my area there are a range of clubs. Some book a big guest every week with selected support and no floor singers,some are clearly selective, some are participative music sessions, and some are esentially singarounds open to all.
If you want high quality music you attend the concert type club if you want a more interactive social event you attend one of the latter.
One club is never likely to cater for all tastes. If people don't like what is on offer they can go elsewhere or as I and a few friends have done start your own session/club.
john

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:31 AM

Mo - I'm not sure there is an easy compromise. Folk clubs differ so much.

Of the folk clubs I know best the dartford club has a guest every week. They have a core of people who turn up regardless of who is on. Who can blame them - excellent range of beer and a good choice of main artists. It was Bob Fox last week. They fail to attract many floor spots. Support is done by residents who take it in turn to compare and do the whole evening.

The cambridge folk club have a different audience according to who the main guest is, and they usually have a semi pro act as support for guest nights. They alternate guest nights with open stage and showcase nights. This means quite a lot of work for the organisers as you can not guarentee an audience and covering costs, but they have given an outlet for a number of local and new young acts.

The Rainham ( kent) clubs run on mostly floor singers with the occasional guests. I have not noticed any overt selection at these clubs.

Two of the clubs have had the same people running them for over 30 years. All of the clubs are of some vintage. The pattern obviously works for them, even though the appraoch is quite different.

I have serious concerns about the future of folk clubs in general - (not enough young people prepared to perform or help run them )- but I'm not sure how much this is to do with performer policy or changing attitudes, and I'm not convinced that a change in policy toward floor singers would alter this.

Sorry to be such a pessimist, Mo.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Wuzzle
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:27 AM

I wonder if the likes of Bob Copper and many of those wonderful people of old would manage to get a floor spot in your club.
What a sad loss for the world   if his wonderful songs and singing and many like him wasn't in it, do you want the modern idea of manufactured music it is all very perfect. But has no soul
Isn't the beauty of folk   just that, real people real life
What happens if everybody doesn't have the same taste in what a performer is, does it make them substandard?

And what happens to people like me who wouldn't dare come to your club in case they weren't good enough, you might end up with to many empty chairs and then another club closes..........

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:13 AM

"Oh, you'll have to audition if you want a slot at our club,"
Sorry to take up a point made some toime ago - attending a local singing week-end where the standard is excellent, including a number of superb young singers barely out of their teens.
I don't see any suggestion whaatever of 'auditions' here; this seems to me to be a much-dragged-out red herring to excuse allowing singers to practice in public, which is highly unfair on both audiences and singers who have done the basic work.
It isn't rocket science for any half-awake compare to spot somebody who can't sing in tune or is reading a text from a printed sheet (no - not having words available just in case - we've all done that).
If you are allowing members of the public in there needs to be a standard below which you do not fall, otherwise you are selling the music and the public short.
If a club is serious about assisting new singers, set up a workshop for beginnners, or at least create a situation where the more experienced singers can make themselves available to offer help.
Unless there is something physically wrong, anybody with the desire to do so can sing - the harder you work, the better you become.
The pleasure of singing in public lies in making the song work, for you and for the listener.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:12 AM

Here's my 10-penn'orth, for it's worth, and which I've said before in other threads.

If you go to a folk-club singers'/open stage night - i.e. an evening full of floor singing - then you should respect your audience and go prepared. If the club is popular and well-attended, it's odds-on that you'll get one, two or possibly three songs/tunes at most. You'll surely know that, and you owe it to your audience and to the success of the night to be absolutely prepared to perform your material to the absolute best of your ability.

This means taking the trouble, before you get to the club, to learn your material thoroughly, to practice, practice and practice yet again - thoroughly - so that you can dispense with the bloody music stand - so that you can look the audience in the eye - so that you can give a confident performance. And, yes, of course there will be times when even the most seasoned of performers will screw the words or the chords up - I've had brain fade myself recently. We're only human, after all! And I also understand the need for a prompt sheet if words happen to be a real problem for you. And, yes, I know it's all supposed to be a bit of fun and friendship, but I've sometimes lost the will to live during a whole evening of dreary paper shuffling and mumbling, and I know others who feel the same way.

The problem is that some beginner performers - and even some experienced ones - in my view totally underestimate the amount of time it takes before a song or a tune is absolutely embedded in the brain. I appreciate that everyone learns at a different pace, but there is absolutely no substitute for hard work - and no excuse for not putting it in. I cannot personally recall a single folk club I attended back in the '60s or early '70s where a singer used a music stand or a book. In some clubs (which I now don't attend), almost every other performer comes up with a huge book or folder of material, sticks it on a music stand, spends time shuffling through it to pick a song, tunes up badly and screws up the song while staring at it and making no eye contact with their audience.

I understand that folk clubs are a platform for learners and beginners to gain experience - I used them myself 40 years ago just for that very purpose - and it's good that there are opportunities for people starting out to get a feel for performance and for playing and singing in public. But that liberality should be repaid by trying to give your very best. I have never performed at a folk club with a music stand or a crib sheet, whether doing a two-song floor spot or two paid 45 minute guest spots. I just prefer to bore my family rigid by practising the same tune all day for days or weeks if need be - just to get it right.

End of rant for the moment!

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:43 AM

As one who still often needs the words in front of me. It's worth pointing out that many seasoned, and well known performers I've seen, regularly forget words, often start again despite being over half way thrugh and it takes up quite a lot of time, the same types are also usually the ones taking up yet more time with endless tuning. I always have my guitar tuned and ready before we start. Often these types haven't even taken their instrument out of the case and rarely apologise for the time they take up. I can remember more than a few occasions when these so called word perfect 'better performers' have taken a full half hour to get through a couple of numbers!

And while I'm having a whinge, I must also mention those, who on very busy nights (as most are in our club I'm glad to say) When you're struggling to get everyone on before closing time, will get up and do some great long epic number preceded by the dreaded tuning ritual. So Performers, try have one or two quick songs/tunes ready for those nights, your host will be so pleased AND remember you next time and you'll not be the one asked to drop out when it's too busy a night (buying the host a pint can be useful too!)

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:16 AM

Is there a compromise possible? Include everyone if possible but arrange the order so that if anyone is dire there is something better to follow. And second turns to the better players if there is time.
When I had to stay in Beverley I sometimes went to Nellie's. It was very inclusive but Richard was always encouraging people to raise standards by muttering about learning the words (though there wasn't an absolute ban), and having an occassional 'themed' night to persuade people to learn something new. Great atmosphere, and I thought most of the people who sang or played there would be fine on the stage at a festival.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST, Fido
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:56 AM

Some people, naming no names, and nothing to be inferred from proximity, ought to be careful when the issue of poor selection is under discussion, in that they have been said in the past by some others to be part of the problem rather than the solution.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:36 AM

I was once at a folk club where the first half hour was collective playing. I thought this was an interesting idea as then just about everybody could participate- shakey eggers to serious players.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: acegardener
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:08 AM

I like to get a pint in at a singaround, when will I be able to if all the performers are faultless. Beginners need to boost their confidence, but a regular exercise book singer should be encouraged to learn his words, a mass exit to the bar gives out the right message. It was frowned upon in my early days to crib the words, you could get away with a few la,la,la's. Chords sequence stuck to a guitar was allowed.

Hard to police nowadays without losing potential performers.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 04:08 AM

I'd say it's a bad idea, unless you're having a guest night then it's ok to give a few of your better performers support spots as we do. But on our Singers nights, also Singarounds it's a policy of anyone willing get's the obligatory two songs or more if time allows. About 30 years back far too many Folk Clubs operated an elitist floor spot policy where only who the hosts regarded as 'good enough' got all or, all the best spots, and it drove away people like myself, then a hopeful newcomer, as it was too hard to get a spot and hence learn enough
Remember also, who decides if they're good enough, it's still the case some clubs have their 'favourites' who get all the best spots and suport spots, but though the may be technically very good they aint neccessarily entertaining or popular! Ok we sometimes have to endure one or two worfully of key performers, but as a host I'd much rather people said "try the Circle club, they welcome newcomers, than "oh you best not go there, it's top players only. I'm sure we'd lose members if we adopted that kind of policy. We've more than doubled our attendances since taking over from a previous club

Desi C
The Circle Folk
Coseley UK
INFO- [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: thecoombes
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:22 PM

Thank you very much everyone.

There is such a variety of opinion and passions here that I've decided to print it off and hand it to anyone who's unhappy with my decisions and ask them to read it. That should give me enough to get home safely and pour a nightcap :-)

Time we called it a day I think

Cheers
Jim Coombes

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Hesk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:17 PM

Gervase,

Sorry, not thread, post.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Hesk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:14 PM

Gervase,

Your thread may be critical, but it's got style!
All I can say is you're not really a singaround type of person, are you.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:30 PM

FWIW, a club where everyone, however special needs, gets a turn every time is one from which I'd run screaming.
OK, on non-guest nights, when it's a come-all-ye and it's been advertised as such to warn would-be punters, then let loose the shaky eggs, the 20-minute-tuners, the performance poets and the dub-balladeers. Otherwise, lock 'em up and don't frighten the horses. I'm now of an age where, should I have to sit through yet another shite performance of someone singing in a quavery voice with their chin buried in a crib sheet, I might well want to swap my ten minutes of wasted life for theirs. With extreme prejudice.
But this is a subject which has been done to death. There are bastards like me, who rarely go to folk clubs now because of the red mist problem, and any number of touchy-feely lovelies sitting in doomed folk clubs. Just be grateful that we don't meet often.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Linda Kelly
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:20 PM

I agree with Hesk-we have a club which fortunately has a very high percentage of good performers-nearly all in fact. We have a people come just because they like the atmosphere and the sense of well being it leaves them with. We have seen huge improvements in some novice performers given the encouragement of a friendly and supportive audience even if their initial efforts were not that good. On a guest night we limit support to 2 club members and the expectation is they will come prepared. Whether they have a songsheet to my mind is irrelevant. If you don't like song sheets close your eyes. I used a songsheet for years and still do on occasion because I don't always want to sing a song from my gig list. If people murder a song-which is rare we have the good grace to laugh it off and look forward to the next singer!

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Hesk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:45 PM

If you have a full club, maybe, you have got a good mix already.

If you allow everyone to have a go, you engender a feeling of togetherness and social interaction, These are the best kinds of evenings, as far as I am concerned.
If, however, you pick and choose, you introduce a form of control based on one person's opinion. This will always bring about disagreement and disharmony, in my experience.
In effect, you affirm the superiority of some, at the expense of others.
Personally, I would prefer not to belong to a club such as that.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:55 PM

if you have a couple of quiet nights where everyone regardless of skill gets to sing followed by a busy night where performance standards are used as a criteria for a spot, you will have to handle it with some sensitivity, as not many people like being told they are not good enough. John

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:32 PM

and actually, why would it not be ?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:32 PM

Jim Carroll beat me to it.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:13 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM

Guest 999: "That post was me, but since ya don`t need to use a name in music, I didn`t slap my hand this time."

How come everybody wants one, then??

Wink,

GfS

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:58 PM

That post was me, but since ya don`t need to use a name in music, I didn`t slap my hand this time.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

``Practice, Practice, Practice!!...if you really want to raise 'performance standards'!!``

And stupid me thought that`s how ya get to Carnegie Hall! (Drum roll.)

---

Guest identified as 999. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:39 PM

Practice, Practice, Practice!!...if you really want to raise 'performance standards'!!

The rest will come, even an elevated stage!(Pun intended?)

GfS

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:30 PM

Jim,

if you want to be the floor spot czar, it seems to me that the devil will be in the details.

The selection process, whatever it involves, might require a serious investment of time and energy. Or not.

My guess is that no matter what criteria you profess to use, you will be perceived as a member of a clique whose job it is to make sure that the other members get floor spots.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:21 PM

Might I suggest being more choosy on a paid guest night than on a open floor evening?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:16 PM

"Here lies one of a tuneless race,
Who left this world a more harmonious place."
in memory of mcgonagle, wheres WAV when he is needed?

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:09 PM

No, the idea is for the said tosser to hold his or her head under water until all signs of aspiration and other indicators of life have ceased. Tosser can then be interred in a grave somewhere with a suitable inscription on the headstone. EG.,

"Here lies one of a tuneless race,
Who left this world a more harmonious place."

Yes, I know it doesn't scan, but neither do the efforts of some of the people who abuse folk club floor spots.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:38 PM

Actually, Fred, at an event not long ago, a duo announced that they liked to hold the last note of a particular line until the first person keeled over. A cry of "Challenge" went up. Taking breath just before that note was allowed, taking breath during the note was cheating. The last man standing was till going when many who had cheated had dropped out! I don't think it was four and a half minutes though.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:47 AM

I've no idea, but a certain festival organiser of my acquaintance used to include a marathon singing session as part of the programme. This marathon singing session, which was free naturally, used to draw tuneless wozzacks out of the woodwork in a manner which resembled the strongest concoction of derris dust ever prepared anywhere on the planet.

When asked why he kept the thing going, despite the fact that it brought no money in, he retorted, "It keeps all the wankers in one place".

There is a need to be charitable here. If you're new to singing and you haven't found your voice yet, and you want to stretch your vocal and musical abilities (and your repertoire), a folk club floor spot is the ideal medium. You will find a willing supporter in me every time, even if the end result hasn't a hope in hell of setting the Thames on fire.

But if you're one of these t**ts who just likes to get up and make a complete pillock of himself, with no regard whatever for performance standards, or the tolerance levels of the audience, or the abuse being wreaked on the material, please go and stick your head in a tank of water and see how long you can hold your breath.

About four and a half minutes should be sufficient to improve the world beyond all recognition.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:22 AM

I `ad that "thecoombes" in my cab the other day. `e was well engrossed in a pile of papers and appeared to be ticking off names or something.
I said` "What`s up Coombesey?. You going through your Christmas card list or something?
`e said, " Nah Jim. I`ve gotta run the "The Old Pig & Whistle" folk club tonight and the old problem of `oo can and `oo can`t do a floor spot `as raised it`s ugly `ead. Performance is key nowadays in the clubs, y`know."
I said, "Why don`t you `ave a special "no `opers night" then?. That ought`a suit everybody."
`e said, "Nice one, Jim, but there wouldn`t be enough room for `em all!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:53 AM

The way the original proposal was phrased seemed rather autocratic. Is the "club" actually a one-man entrepreneurial business, so it makes sense for the MC to decide policy like that?

If not, the members and regulars need to be consulted. Not much point in raising standards of performance if it involves lowering standards of democratic accountability and community responsibility and making the place simply far less fun than the way it is now.

If anybody involved knows something about market research, they might have something useful to contribute about how to gauge opinion.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:51 AM

It's sort of a common courtesy, what w/ johncharles' points out about making known whatever one's tacit or published standards may be. Doing so would likely create a lot of self selection. If many performers back away one may make invitations, rethink the standard or let well enough alone if the public is happily paying.

My mother used to perform at the now-gone Rasputin's in Ottawa. The owner there had a clear plan and standard for each night of the week. I don't recall exactly which was which night and may have some of the details wrong but essentially Mon-Thurs were one of (not in this order):
...celtic jam, not sure how this one went or the skill levels.
...everyone-gets-a-turn song circle (jam at the option of each singer)
...IIRC, perform by invitation the shorter of 3 songs or 10 minutes
...wide open sign-up-to-perform (I don't recall how much jamming if any)

Fri-Sat had pretty polished hired acts with fairly polished warm-up act(s). Sundays, well memory fails me somewhat but it was something like 30 minute sets by invitation maybe a small cover charge went to the performers.

In that venue, with that owner's personality & rules of etiquette, performers self-selected pretty well, and audiences knew what to expect.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:50 AM

I remember the "Oh, you'll have to audition if you want a slot at our club, and we'll decide if you're good enough" from the 70s. I can fairly safely say that I have never knowingly returned to a club operating that policy.

I know of persons exercising the power of selection who have totally cloth ears, I know of persons having that power who will have excessive regard to the Disability Discrimination Act. I know bullying cliques who will blacklist those out of favour with them. I know of one club where the "residents" turned out lots of sub-Americana, the in-crowd got a short go, and even visiting semipros often did not get on. I can think of one chap who was laughable when he started but is now asked to do support slots. I can think of one semipro duo who would not pass a "How well do they play and sing" test by a street.   But they have a fan base. If people had to be able to play or sing where would that have left Johnny Cash, Bob Dylan, the Pogues, or Lemmy? Far too dangerous to trust people with the power of selection.

If you want to run "Guest and booked support" - by all means do so.

If you have "floor spots" or "singaround" it's the people's music. Let the people make it.


By the way, this topic has been done to death on here.

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: John Routledge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:39 AM

Can we we now close this so far excellent thread :0)

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: thecoombes
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:31 AM

Thank you all - I'm enjoying your responses. I'm actually not looking for advice on this (much as it is certainly welcome), more to get a feel for how people felt about the issue - is it right or wrong ?

I'd particularly like to hear from those who think it isn't right to do this.

Please keep posting.
Cheers
Jim

Subject: RE: Is it OK to raise performance standards?
From: autoharpbob
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:17 AM

I know what you mean. I have sat through some dire performances, including one who introduced a song as being "his version" and went on to sing from a sheet, out of tune, out of time, as though he had never heard the song before. I also have to remember that I sounded not far off that once. It is all very well saying you need to practice on your own until you are competent - but that competence then goes straight out the window for a lot of people when they have to face the public. I agree with the idea that different nights should serve different purposes - sing-arounds for all, guest spots for chosen performers, and when the club is crowded, up to the MC - some of whom will do a first come policy, some will do who haven't we seen in a while, some will do their mates, and some will do who is any good. The other approach is that in my area there are enough clubs that I can almost guarantee the kind of night I will get at each club. One club is frankly scary in the quality of the regulars, and anyone who went there for the singaround who wasn't any good would probably not go back. Another club is extremely egalitarian, and some of the regulars are frankly awful - I have tended not to go to that one very often. The club tends to get the clientele it caters for.