BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:56 PM

interesting link amos.i was not sure if the study indicated that religious friendship was more fulfilling than other networks or not.i was a little surprised that the emphasis was friendship, as it would be belief in Gods acceptance of repentant sinners that would be more to the fore for myself.
perhaps a further study should be done on members of sceptic society or similar!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:13 AM

Ron:

I think you are misidentifying causes and correlations. Atheism is not the cause of human tragedies.

It does remove an arbitrary solution to the absurdist quandary of existentialism. But the absurdist quandary is not a big deal, and is simply solved by taking on responsibility as an individual for projecting one's preferred meanings on the world instead of snuffling around like a truffle-pig looking for one that someone else put there.

God is a verbal reflection.   

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:02 AM

It just shows how deluded they are :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 08:36 PM

An interesting study asks whether religious people are happier, and why. (Live Science Journal)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM

Ron, your beliefs are your own business and we've all heard them now. Ad nauseam repetition is pointless.

For the record, although he was probably a genius I'm not fond of Zappa's music, but I recommend you listen to Shostakovich for an example of music composed by an atheist. The 4th symphony is a fairly accessible start. I don't suppose you will, though..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 09:19 AM

we've established . . . .

Ron, since everyone, everybody, all of us, on all sides of the religion question have disagreed with you in the strongest terms, I have to assume you are using the Royal We. That explains a lot.

Do you remember back about four cycles ago when I said that your habit is to make some unsupported comment, ignore all the rebuttals, and then come back a few days later with the same unsupported assertions, again ignoring all attempts to engage you in a conversation about it? Do you really like proving me right over and over?

Why aren't you embarrassed?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 10:16 PM

So we've established that not only is atheism the worst thing to ever happen to humanity--thanks to those stalwart atheists Hitler, Stalin, and Mao--but it has also not resulted in any cultural advances, much less cultural achievements.   Always excepting of course, the pinnacle of musical creation which is the body of Frank Zappa's work.

And on top of that, it doesn't even provide much in the way of humor.   Religion on the other hand, has been a wonderful and continuing source for humor.

I just heard yet another sterling contribution to the literature yesterday on Prairie Home Companion--also including Elvis Costello as the "wayward rector.", the Right Rev. Desmond McManness, DD, DVD, DDS, STD, OMG.

Set to a possibly recognizable tune:


I'm slow to anger
Don't covet or lust
No sins of pride, except sometimes I must
Episcopalian
Saving my love for you

The theology's easy
Liturgy too
Just stand up and kneel down, and do what the others do
Episcopalian
Saving my love for you
At St. Michael's we recycle
At St. Clement's we suck lemons
Morning dawns on great white swans on the lawns of St. John's

There's white folk and black
Gay and morose
Some male Anglo-Saxons
But we watch them pretty close
Episcopalian
Saving my love for you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:27 PM

It came out a few years ago on Greentrax G2CD7007 - Tom Lehrer, Loudon Wainwright III, Eric Bogle to name a few. "A humorous alternative to other Christmas Albums!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 12:44 PM

dont know that album.i was referring to dickens "a christmas carol"
a little playful dig at christmas critics!
the mind boggles as to content of song!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:19 PM

"bah humbug!" - great album. I used to keep a copy in van so I could play the first track whenever I reversed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM

bah humbug!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:05 PM

Oh BTW Merry Mithras.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:59 PM

It was originally a pagan holiday. The yule log comes from the burning of trees as a superstition to bring back the sun when it went down for the night. That's why we have christmas lights.

Mithras, the Persian sun god was born on the 25th of December of a virgin birth, according to superstitious legend. Jesus was not according to superstitious legend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:57 PM

By us presumably you mean pagans - we never used to celebrate Christmas in Scotland because it was a pagan festival. We had New Year which is a purely non-religious festival, though it has plenty of superstitions attached to it. So all I can say is

Have a good Yule.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

Whether one has a Christian belief or not, for respect to those on Mudcat who have a Christian belief, posters pick a time somewhere around the Christmas Holidays to have a voluntary "Christmas Truce" on posting strong views the Atheist and God discussion

I couldn't disagree more. Christmas is by far the most appropriate time of all to attack Christianity. After all, Christianity stole the midwinter feast for their own dubious ends, and just look what they've done to it. I'll agree to the truce as soon as Christians hand Christmas back to us.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 11:30 AM

Anger is a state of being, whether transiently or chronically. All beings are capable of it. It's part of the emotional spectrum of states of feeling which ranges from complete deathfulness up to exhilerated enthusiasm and serenity. In general it is on the south side of the spectrum, meaning it tends to be more destructive and less truthful than higher states such as boredom or cheerful interest.

There is nothing theological or mystical about it, though.

It does make for very poor learning, which is why exposing infants to it unduly is not a good idea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

Whether one has a Christian belief or not, for respect to those on Mudcat who have a Christian belief, posters pick a time somewhere around the Christmas Holidays to have a voluntary "Christmas Truce" on posting strong views the Atheist and God discussion (though they are currently tame).

It could just be one day (pick any), to limit the physiological impact on posters with such strong views. :)

Just a suggestion for consideration (it takes two to Tango).

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:29 PM

Sounds more like pain to me. I suggest that further debate on this would be futile.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:11 PM

Babies react in different ways - crying accompanied by a furrowed brow is quite normal, and not particularly angry. When the baby screams ferociously and refuses to be pacified (and carries this behaviour on well into later life) then anger appears to be an adequate description of their mood. As the child's mother said, "if I'd had him first, he'd have been an only child".

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 07:53 PM

I really don't want to dwell, but how do you and your paediatrician daughter define "very angry" as it pertains to a tiny baby? Crying accompanied by a furrowed brow, perhaps? And how do you know they were "dragged out" of the womb "against their will?" Your imagination appears to be running riot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:08 PM

Not a whimsy. Experience as a parent and corroborated by my paediatrician daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:17 AM

There are some very, very angry new-born babies around, probably because they've been dragged against their will out of the womb

Nice whimsy.

Hardly any snow in north Cornwall, though you don't want to be outdoors for long in that wind.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM

thanks joe-very scholarly description of pauls letters,though of course i hold a more literal view of their inspiration;but well worth reading.

steve-i agree that anger is not always sinful since jesus himself exhibited anger where appropriate eg john 2 14ff"temple clearout"

is your part of the country snowbound too?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:24 AM

"a new-born baby knows nothing of any anger"

There are some very, very angry new-born babies around, probably because they've been dragged against their will out of the womb.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 07:53 PM

Theology is the study of a spiritual perspective of life.

Mind if I reword that slightly, Joe?

"Theology is a study of a spiritual perspective of life."

Hope you don't mind!

I hear what you say about our angry world and so on, but a new-born baby knows nothing of any anger. Neither is it guilty of anger. And why the apparent assumption that anger is always sinful?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:36 PM

thats understandable steve as you are not christian.no doubt some believers have difficulty accepting it.
im not a catholic and i dont know if you represent their teaching fairly/accurately.i do however believe that salvation only comes through Christ and is for those who repent and believe,but includes infants and any others not reaching a state of accountability.
as for all those good people:no one makes the grade but God saves the humble repentant believers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM

Well, Steve, that's a more literal explanation of original sin than I'd buy. My thinking is that we are born into an "environment of sin." Kids learn hatred and racism at an early age, despite the best efforts of their parents. I think it's because we all live in an environment that's filled with anger.

There is a tendency to view theological issues as algebraic equations, as simplistic conclusions drawn from a simplifies set of rules and doctrines. Theology is the study of a spiritual perspective of life. Life isn't so cut-and-dried, and neither is theology. The doctrine of original sin doesn't make sense unless you assume that there's a reality behind it - the same goes for all theology: it doesn't make sense unless there's a reality behind it. I think the reality of original sin is our angry world. Most of us would agree that it's difficult to live in this angry world without succumbing to anger ourselves.

Pete, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Paul's letters follow a format that was common in his time. They begin with a greeting, and continue with words of thanks and good wishes for the recipients. Then they move to the main issue of the letter, usually a theological question. In about the second-last chapter of each letter, Paul begins what theologians call a "moral exhortation," which may or may not be related to the theological question addressed in the main part of the letter. These "moral exhortations" give advice on how to live a good life, and I find many of these exhortations to be beautiful and inspiring. The ones I like best are in Ephesians and Colossians, but then right at the end of the exhortation they go into the bit about wives being subject to their husbands and such (I tend to disagree with Paul on these matters. Some people say that Paul was a product of his time. I say he was just wrong, even though I appreciate most other things he had to say). The letters conclude with words of blessing. Then, almost as a postscript, Paul includes interesting little personal remarks and messages to individuals in the community he is addressing - I find these to be very human. At times, it seems that Paul is writing the postscript in his own hand, and the major part of the letter was written by a secretary (amanuensis in Greek).

You'll find that almost every letter attributed to Paul follows this outline, and some of the other New Testament letters follow the same outline. Other New Testament "letters" are more in the form of a sermon.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:02 PM

i believe the bible teaches original sin,in the sense of it being inherent in our nature

Perhaps it does, but it's a pretty abhorrent bit of teaching if so. I can't think of anything more innocent or pure in spirit than a new-born baby. I don't see how anyone can argue that sinfulness is inherent in that baby's nature. Setting aside the fact that I'm an atheist for a minute, I have to ask myself whether I could ever accept that teaching under any circumstances. It sounds like another method of capturing and controlling people to me. Tell them they are fatally flawed right from the outset, so much so that heaven is denied for all eternity, and that the only salvation is to join the Catholic club. Well, I suppose it's cheaper than enticing people with introductory free gifts.

I wonder where all those good people are who died before baptism was invented.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:12 PM

joe-knowing you have a theological degee: can i ask what you think of pauls letters.as i read them ,the principles and practise seem to follow after and as resulting from explanation of doctrine?
i hope you dont think my postings combative even though my position contrasts with yours theologically,and of course with atheism.
i trust that my settled convictions do not constitute an intolerance to others views that oppose my own.

steve-certainly i believe the bible teaches original sin,in the sense of it being inherent in our nature ,though obviously not practised in the womb.i believe that infants that die go straight to a loving God ,holy water or not,and i am surprised that any church would indicate otherwise by its practise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

Yes you did say it and I should have acknowledged that.

Call me Mr Simple, but my idea of sin is that you are not guilty of it unless you've knowingly committed it. I appreciate your valiant attempt to broaden the concept, but we're talking about something far more specific here. Babies born with souls already besmirched... yep, God certainly works in mysterious ways.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:02 PM

Steve Shaw says: Grace, mercy, peace, and love are all there for the taking in the atheistic and paganistic world too, though. Exactly, Steve. Didn't I say that? I said, "Personified in one god, many gods, or not personified in a god at all - isn't that what we all should seek?"

No, I can't defend the refusal to bury anyone anywhere, especially not stillborn babies.

As for your comment about doctrine, I think that too many people put doctrine in the wrong place, and become slaves to doctrine or ideology. Doctrine must be subordinate to ideals and principles, not the other way around.

As for original sin, well....I think we're all born into a sinful environment, and it takes superhuman effort to overcome that environment. I think the "original sin" of the United States is the enslavement of Africans and the decimation of Native Americans, the "original sin" of Great Britain is imperialism, and the the "original sin" of Ireland may well be Irish Catholicism. Every nation, every society, every church, every family has its own "original sin."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

" is it always Christians vs atheists"

I've just been reading about the Sea of Faith movement, which as far as I can gather is an atheist body, mainly within the Church of England, and the principal figure involved is Don Cupitt.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:42 PM

I'm with John on that, Joe. Belief in the way you present it is utterly respectable and valid. Grace, mercy peace and love are all there for the taking in the atheistic and paganistic world too, though. Sadly, many opportunities are lost for taking 'em. It is there in the faith world, but I don't envy your task in having to unpick them from all that doctrine. I've just come straight from watching a documentary about the thousands of stillborn babies who were not allowed by Catholic theology to be buried in consecrated ground, and who now lie in unmarked mass graves outside cemetery perimeter fences and in bogland. Separated after death from their families on earth and then in the afterlife as well by being consigned to limbo (at least the Church has made a little progress there, though the funeral rites for unbaptised babies are still different from those of the baptised). What else but a male-dominated, authoritarian, unchristian organisation such as the Catholic church could come up with such wickedness and cruelty. If I were still religious, the one wicked thing that would cause me to join any religion other than Catholicism is the doctrine of original sin. A God who decrees that for his flock can go and... finish that one yerself!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 05:45 PM

Mudcat Doctrine insists that one who professes a religious belief, is responsible for all the misdeeds and odd thinking of all people who profess to have the same faith.

Joe, I hope that's not true. I certainly don't feel that way. But then, I find all discussion of the history of religious atrocities completely beside the point in any such discussion.

Why would anyone choose to believe in anything other than grace, mercy, peace, and love?

Exactly! I'm with you on that. Interestingly, if I had to pick a religion it would be paganism. I'm pretty big on the sanctity and holiness of the earth. I only part ways with a lot of pagans when they start talking about gods . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM

I think the pagans are very smart - they're going to let the atheists and Christians kill each other off.

Tolerance and imagination and respect and appreciation of the earth seem to be the essence of modern paganism. I've read that monotheistic religions have more of a tendency to be doctrinaire and combative, since their faith allows for one god and no others. I think I'd class atheists with the monotheists from this perspective - their "one god" is "no god," and allows for no others. Actually, I think it's only the fundamentalist monotheists/atheists who are so doctrinaire and combative - and they tend to see all others as doctrinaire and combative and scandalously denying the One Truth.

I find it well-nigh impossible to carry on a reasonable discussion of religion here. Mudcat Doctrine insists that one who professes a religious belief, is responsible for all the misdeeds and odd thinking of all people who profess to have the same faith. Mudcat Doctrine insists that this is not bigotry, but I think otherwise.

I find that the best I can do is say what I don't believe, while others insist that I must believe certain things because I call myself a Catholic Christian. Despite what they think I don't believe in intolerance, I don't believe that women should be subordinate to men, I don't believe in child molestation, I don't believe in combat for any reason. I don't believe in rigid doctrine. But there are many here who insist that of course I must believe all these things, because I call myself a Catholic.

I DO believe in tolerance, imagination, respect, and appreciation of the earth. I DO believe in a God who is "gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in love." (Psalm 145)

Why would anyone choose to believe in anything other than grace, mercy, peace, and love? Personified in one god, many gods, or not personified in a god at all - isn't that what we all should seek? Pursuit of Truth is an illusion, because it rarely allows for the fact that there are many perspectives of the truth - but grace, mercy, peace, and love are universal. Notice that Truth points to a center, and the seeker who has found "truth" is at the center of it all. Those who seek grace, mercy, peace, and love must seek outside themselves. And when and where they find grace, mercy, peace, and love - they will also find real Truth.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

maybe no pagan religious have posted yet?

Subject: Pagans In This?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 04:11 PM

Hey, I hain't read all this nor the last such thread-- but from past efforts I found myself wondering recently--

Do pagan gods/beliefs ever get discussed in these messes, or is it always Christians vs atheists and vice versa, and if so, why is that?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:30 PM

i doubt it is deluded john-but it aint dialouge either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 10:23 AM

Ron, it is clear that the atrocities of Nazi Germany were caused by Mudcat atheist-bashers. I wonder how long it will take our resident Mudcat atheist-bashers to recognize that? It's interesting that they just keep saying the same deluded things over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 09:42 PM

It's interesting that those who allege that the 3rd Reich was not an atheist state not only are unwilling to do research but they don't even read the links they themselves provide.

Wiki is not the last word on anything, but if buttressed by other sources it has value. In this case its information is confirmed by many other sources.

The Nuremberg trials revealed not only the persecution of Christian churches in the 3rd Reich but also plans for the future. After all, you will recall the 3rd Reich was to be a 1,000- year Reich.

According to documents procured by William Donovan and publicized at the Nuremberg trials, the Nazis "would have liked to meet this situation (church influence) by complete extirpation of Christianity... "

"Different steps in that persecution, such as the campaign for the suppression of denominational and youth organizations, the campaign against denominational schools, the defamation campaign against the clergy, started on the same day in the whole area of the Reich, and were supported by the entire regimented press, by Nazi Party meetings and by traveling Party speakers."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:18 PM

(and IMO you are perfectly entitled to be YOU)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM

If you were to ask me, I would not say one way or the other. Does that make me bad or good?

Neither. I might believe that those who do not believe in Christ are mistaken but what you ask just makes YOU as YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:58 PM

"Should I stay silent and see only one side of arguments put forward?"

If god exists, no amount of comments to the contrary will change that.

Counter arguments will only provoke more contrary comments.

All it can ultimately lead to is the believers and non believers trying to kill each other off until one side prevails.

To me, all these emphatic claims that the other side is wrong only points to the fact that they must not be too sure or they would just keep their beliefs to themselves.

If you were to ask me, I would not say one way or the other. Does that make me bad or good?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 12:20 AM

That is so novel I can't resist!

While nothing can convince you, I can feel certain that is not the case. They may be believers in tolerance to others with different beliefs but to sell out what they believe in to become part of a God posse - absolutely no way! And Internet wise, I've known (on and off as I've left and come back here a few times...) some of these people for over 10 years now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 08:01 PM

True, Jon, but who's to say that members of the God posse can't be mercenary atheists?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:19 PM

No, I don't mind you sharing that Jon. I'd forgotten about it, and it was funny.

I have too many friends of all religious persuasions to use belief to belittle people. I think it's stupid. A person's intolerance is a better reason to not be a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:59 PM

Yet another apology for missing name above.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:57 PM

One I hope final comment:

Blimey, one of my more anodyne contributions and I have the God posse after me...

Sounds good but oat leat one of the commentators is herself an atheist so the God Posse after you does not stand up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

Oh and though this has benn posted before. But in attempt to lighten things up.

In my ICQ chats with Jeri, once my computer was playing up I tried to explain what it was and Jeri asked if I'd realised what I'd said. I'd complained about a hard dick (not disc) problem!

Most of our conversations as with any one else's are very private but I'm sure she will not mind me sharing that one again,

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 02:52 PM

Blimey, one of my more anodyne contributions and I have the God posse after me...