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BS: Students march against tuition fees UK

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Subject: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:47 AM

It's today and as many as 20,000 people from across the country will be there.

Here is a link to the BBC article. Makes very interesting reading and if they follow through on some of their suggestions, then Lib Dems could be in a whole lot of bother.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11719929

I thought this part of the article was pretty interesting.

Student targets

"There is nothing fair or progressive about tripling the cost of a degree and axing college grants that are often the difference between students being able to study or not," said Ms Hunt.

Students say they will try to use the proposed "right to recall" legislation to unseat MPs who ditch their election pledge to oppose an increase in tuition fees.

NUS president
This proposal would mean that MPs guilty of "serious wrongdoing" could be forced by voters to stand down.

In particular, Mr Porter warned that student voters will target Liberal Democrat MPs who failed to keep their promise to vote against a fee increase, threatening to topple MPs with a narrow majority.

There have already been student protests against Liberal Democrat ministers Vince Cable and Chris Huhne.

An effigy of the party leader, Nick Clegg, was hanged by students staging an occupation against the fee increase at Goldsmiths, University of London.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 08:09 AM

Blimey it's over 30,000


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 08:15 AM

Ooooh, wonder if my lad's there. I think he was planning on going.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 08:41 AM

Do you honestly think that it'll make a jot of difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 08:50 AM

"Do you honestly think that it'll make a jot of difference?"
Probably a touch more than sitting on your bum and saying "Do you honestly think that it'll make a jot of difference?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 09:12 AM

"Do you honestly think that it'll make a jot of difference? "

Yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM

In what way do you think it will it make a difference?

I'm not trying to start an argument here, and I agree to a good extent with your views, so please take me at my word.

Did the 2003 London march against the Iraq war where, (depending on who you believe) over 1 million people turned up, make any difference?

None whatsoever.

Why will this be different? I'm cynical, undoubtedly. Convince me otherwise, eh?

Good luck, anyway.

Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 10:17 AM

One of the few benefits of a coalition government is that there are MPs with differing opinions who may be prepared not to toe the joint-party line, especially if their manifesto stated they were opposed to a particular piece of proposed legislation. Hopefully, this demonstration will show the depth of feeling about tuition fees and those MPs who were opposed to it during the election campaign may just have the bottle to stand up and be counted on this issue. Whether there will be enough to make a difference remains to be seen. Anyway, as JC said, it has to be tried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 10:24 AM

Can I just say that I do not condone the violent tactics of a small minority. This is both unnecessary and counter-productive. This kind of behaviour discourages people from taking part in demonstrations (and I forsee quite a few in the coming months) and is also unfair to the police who are themselves angry about proposed cuts in their own budgets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 10:30 AM

Thanks for your reply, theleveller.

I hope that your demonstration achieves something, but given the ease with which the LibDems have reneged on their manifesto promise regarding student fees, I honestly think that you're pissing in the wind.

Hope that you prove me wrong.

Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 10:32 AM

I think the voilence is a disgrace and takes away all the good work done by the rally of the peaceful majority.

Why can't these idiots just f*** off and leave the peaceful demonstrators to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 10:47 AM

"I honestly think that you're pissing in the wind."

Perhaps more like pissing yourself in dark trousers - it gives you a warm feeling but no-one notices. Anyway, I hope not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

Appalling coverage by the BBC News channel - replaying over and over again the same footage, the same incidents from different angles and not a single shot of the huge demonstration and peaceful march that preceded it.

It is virtually impossible to recognise what is a repeat and what is live. It gives the impression that there is massive violence going on for hour after hour and I do not believe that is the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:21 AM

Some twat on BBC news called Benjamin Weiss who was involved in the voilence and got into Millbank Tower, seems so proud to have joined in and shows no concern for having a peaceful demo, like the majority.

Well I just f****** hope the university he goes too, takes note and kicks the little git out.

I get so angry about the people who can't seem to do anything but cause voilence or vandalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:24 AM

Sorry, I should have said "Some twat who has been interviewed on BBC news called Benjamin Weiss who was involved in the voilence"


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:26 AM

One of my sons is a student, the other is a policeman. Both are angry about what this government is doing because both are worried about their futures. The police have to police the student demonstration, but who will police the police demonstrations - the students?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:29 AM

No excuse for voilence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:46 AM

No excuse for bad spelling either, Arfa - it's 'violence!
Which university did you go to? :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:50 AM

"No excuse for voilence."

No-one here is excusing or condoning violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

"There are so many of us here, they'll HAVE to listen to us!"
A student, on the news, on BBC Radio Devon, about an hour ago, when the BBC reported live from inside the march...

Those kids are getting REALLY angry! Good for them!!!! I just hope and pray that none of them get hurt...that no-one gets hurt, but God it's wonderful to hear anger again..

£9,000 a year! It's immoral...

I really do think these demonstrations are going to start spiralling in a way this government never imagined!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:18 PM

Just another legacy of the disgraceful labour disaster of the last 13 years - will you never learn. I hope the demonstrators who have adopted a terrorist style are locked up and the key thrown away. They don't deserve further education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:29 PM

I think they are making a really decent protest and I am delighted to support them.

What a fine example of the education system they are, at least they have been taught to think for themselves and not just do as they are told.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:32 PM

"terrorist style" - that kind of language is just an insult to people who have suffered from terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

Meanwhile Cameron, in China, has been saying how Tory policies should bring the cost down for foreign students; on the contrary, students should study in their own nation and, perhaps, VISIT other nations as respectful tourists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:49 PM

Criminals walked on the streets of London today and caused hundreds of thousands of pound worth of damage and attempted to murder policemen be throwing rocks, fire extinguishers and tables from roofs . Last month a few on this site supported public protest and actually encouraged it.

I now hope both the government and the universities carry through their plans.

Anyone here who supported public protest against government reform should be ashamed of themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM

"I hope the demonstrators who have adopted a terrorist style are locked up and the key thrown away. They don't deserve further education."

I hope they go on to become politicians, because THEY will ensure that University Education is free for everyone, just as it used to be. They will have a strong sense of justice and Roots in Revolution and Rebellion, not Agonisiing Apathy which has brought us to this situation in the first place..


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:02 PM

You ain't seen nothin' YET. This attack on the people of the UK by a capitalist govt is serious.
Does anyone think peaceful demonstrations will accomplish anything?

These people have already made up their minds, just as they did with the war in Iraq....the usual suspects are out on Sky News condemning
the despicable minority who infiltrated a peaceful protest.
Disgrace, disgust, shame!


TO the regiment!....I wish I was there!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:14 PM

The same bums and anarchists who show up at rallies everywhere have joined in and are causing damage to personal property. They should be apprehended and sentenced to hard labor.
News reports this morning say that many students have fallen back in order to avoid being associated with the vandals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

Agreed Q

BWM
Birmingham University and voilence is voilence there :-) I thought I might see you in Tesco's in Gainsborough tonight :-)

So you seem to condone voilence then Lizzie. Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM

"The same bums and anarchists who show up at rallies everywhere"

You can't blame today's criminal activity on anyone other than those who organized it or took part in it. We have seen it all before and heard similar excuses about some "invisible group" that turned up at and caused the trouble.

CCTV and news media footage should identify them. I hope the police deal with them and that the government stop giving students handouts and that universities give us the cream on the cake and raise fees.

The taxpayer will be landed with today's bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM

From the Guardian News Blog

6.21pm:
One of the protesters who was outside Millbank today, @mikarv, has sent me the video below which shows activists on the roof of the building which houses the Conservative campaign HQ allegedly throwing a fire extinguisher towards riot police below.

The crowd on the ground respond with by booing, before beginning to chant "Stop throwing shit."

@mikarv said he couldn't see whether it struck an officer or not, "but it fell exactly where a dense crowd of riot police were".

6.40pm:
A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police Federation has said today's protests should serve as a reminder to the government to maintain police numbers.

He said officers had shown "great restraint and professionalism", but added:

"It is a reminder that the government must maintain the number of fully warranted police officers to ensure that policing these spontaneous incidents, along with their everyday duties, can be sustained in the capital," he added.

"While we understand and support the right to peaceful protest, police officers must be supported when dealing with such unprovoked violence."

6.48pm:
The Press Association are reporting that at least four protesters, all in handcuffs, have been driven away from the scene in a police van.

Rachel Williams says six more vans have been driven into the courtyard of Millbank Tower, and people are being loaded inside. No word from police on the total number of arrests yet.

Right that's it for today, thanks for reading and commenting. My colleague Jonathan Haynes will be updating the blog with any major news for the next few hours.

If you have been involved in the protests today and would like to share any photos, videos or yarns, then please contact me either on Twitter: @adamgabbatt or by email: adam.gabbatt@guardian.co.uk. I'll have a look through any footage tomorrow and hopefully include it on the website

6.59pm:
Jonathan Haynes picking up from Adam here. As protesters are released from cordons of police outside Millbank Tower, some have been speaking out. Leila Khaled, 22, a student at Essex University described the police tactics as kettling - the tactic of penning in protesters widely criticised after its use at the G20 protests in London last year.

She said: "We've been kettled in and people are getting desperate here. It's freezing and all we want is to go home.We're not here to cause any trouble."

7.06pm:
A police spokesman tonight said 32 people had been arrested for a range of offences, including criminal damage and trespass, and were now in custody. Those arrested are being taken to a police stations across central London including Westminster and Fulham.

Earlier, the London mayor, Boris Johnson, said: "I am appalled that a small minority have today shamefully abused their right to protest. This is intolerable and all those involved will be pursued and they will face the full force of the law."


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:38 PM

Is violence only ever perpetrated by a man with a stick/brick.

I think this govt is practicing robbery with violence..against those who can least afford it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:39 PM

"..CCTV and news media footage should identify them. I hope the police deal with them and that the government stop giving students handouts and that universities give us the cream on the cake and raise fees..."

GFY x 2

"..Earlier, the London mayor, Boris Johnson, said: "I am appalled that a small minority have today shamefully abused their right to protest. This is intolerable and all those involved will be pursued and they will face the full force of the law."

I'm sure there's may be far worse to come, Boris, Ol' Boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM

" This is intolerable and all those involved will be pursued and they will face the full force of the law"

Excellent!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

"Birmingham University and voilence is voilence there :-) "

Aaaaaahh, I forgot about the Brummie accent Arthur! Yer roight, it's voilence down theer! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:46 PM

The G meeting in Toronto which spawned violent actions by a small minority caused losses to merchants that are still being settled, and the vandals who were identified have had court appearances.
It is the general law-abiding citizens who suffer through having to pay the tab through increased police and insurance costs.

The fee increases seem excessive, but I don't know the situation in the UK. A well-educated citizenry is a necessity; perhaps the cuts should be applied elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:54 PM

Do you mean these peaceful people who sat down and sang peace songs, whilst the Canadian Police charged at them, on horseback and on foot, Q?

Canada's corporate police shame

Or do you mean that nice Canadian, Officer Bubbles, who terrorised a sweet Canadian lassie..

Or do you mean the Canadian police who arrested Charlie from The Love Police, then stuck him in a cell whilst threatening him...for daring to take part in a peaceful protest...

Or do you mean the Canadian Police who INFILTRATED the crowds, but who forgot to take their police boots off and so were caught on camera....with their chief having to apologise later...as those same men were also caught....throwing rocks!

It's all out there on Youtube...


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:55 PM

"Protesters smashed windows and WAVED ANARCHIST FLAGS from the roof of the building housing the Conservative party headquarters as the fringe of a vast rally against university funding cuts turned violent.
[...] PROTESTERS WHO BROKE OFF FROM THE MAIN ROUTE OF THE MARCH occupied the lobby of the building at 30 Millbank, in central London, where police wielding batons clashed with a crowd hurling placard sticks, eggs and bottles. ACTIVISTS WHO HAD MASKED THEIR FACES WITH SCARVES traded punches with police to chants of "Tory scum". The exchanges were recorded by broadcasters' helicopter-mounted cameras and protesters' mobile phones." (Guardian)

So a group of anarchists and not students (concealed faces, waving anarchist flags, breaking off together from the route) quite evidently had this violence preplanned.
The question is how in future genuine protesters can identify such small groups and prevent them from hijacking otherwise peaceful demonstrations?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:01 PM

So there are no anarchist students?

You need to get out more sister.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

In Canada the er..'anarchists' turned out to be 'the police' who'd forgotten to take their boots off...



Just in case anyone was wondering....this is a PM to me, from 'Richie Black', explaining what RAF means..

>>>"Christ you can be assured you are not "my dear" in that sense, it was open politeness. I am certainly not into women that could haunt a village.

By the way RAF is "As Rough as Fuck"<<<

So, there we have it...

Moving on..




"So you seem to condone voilence then Lizzie. Shame on you."

I'd far rather peace than violence Arthur, but I know that people are starting to 'explode' inside with all this bloody mess we're in..and with the so-called 'solutions', so it hardly surprises me...and quite frankly I can completely understand where they're coming from..

I also know that it's very, very easy for 'others' to whip up a situation, and has been proven recently in Canada, it's not *always* the bad guys who are doing the whipping up.

But as you can see from the video I posted above, sometimes peaceful folks sit down...er...peacefully, and they get charged at by horses and policemen.

We are not living in 'normal' times, and sadly, I believe this is going to start happening a great deal...

The bubble has finally started to burst...


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:14 PM

When police try to control and arrest vandals in a mob, it is inevitable that some 'innocents' get caught up. The police will use whatever weapons are at their disposal- as they should. The protests at gatherings of world leaders should be put down; they serve no purpose except to add to local government costs.


I applaud those British students who withdrew when the bums and anarchists joined the rally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:15 PM

Whether they are Marxists, unemployed crusties, members of the WI, students, members of the animal liberation front, or undercover police, is neither here nor there. They were there as anarchists, and not as students. The march was about student fees not anarchy. I'm not against anarchy per se in fact I'm broadly in favour of anarcho-communism myself, though I tend to think people looking for a bundle will wave whatever flag suits their purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:29 PM

Funny, Q, I thought you were an adherent of the right to bear arms. What for, if not to use them?

The point to this is that when democratic (oh, or do I mean bureaucratic, with marker pens that cannot bite for five years and will even then be whitewashed by the press zombies of the industrial-military complex?) means to reply to oppression are muzzled then eventually the worms will turn. Read Marx.

I'd rather that legitimate complaints were addressed within the system, but they aren't, and when they aren't the system eventually has to be dismantled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:23 PM

Agent Provocateurs, CS...If you want to put a bad taste into the mouths of folks taking part, or watching, sometimes, you sprinkle a few around. I'm not saying that's what's going on...because at present nobody knows the exact situation.

I remember when we went on the Poll Tax March in Plymouth, 20 years or more ago, there was a group who were doing their damndest to stir up a very peaceful march. The police were..er...a little more trustworthy back then, although I'm sure some of them still are.....and they did a good job of keeping them right away from everyone else...The march passed off very peacefully.

People are very angry. The British are finally starting to Grumble...
You can push us SO far and then, WHOOSH! we go a little bananas. My ex-husband was made redundant yesterday. 'Rok' a huge building firm down here in the South West went to the wall, thousands of jobs in jeopardy, although there maybe a new buyer...People are at their wits end...and all the while they know how the grossly rich are getting even richer and more gross.

NO student should have to pay £9000 a year for University fees, it's just wrong! God, THREE years of that means they leave already with debts of TWENTY SEVEN THOUSAND POUNDS! How can that be right???? NO young person should start their life with those kind of debts! HOW will they ever get their lives back? How will they ever afford anything in life, house, family etc...

Geez! This is beyond tolerable, what is happening...


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:26 PM

But still the voilence :-) is not acceptable.
Lock the voilent bastards up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:11 PM

"By the way RAF is "As Rough as Fuck"

Well, we all like a bit of rough don't we!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM

Things are going very well for the Coalition, the socialist oiks are behaving just as expected.

Let's face it 1000s of so called students at former Polytechnics are just on a skive for 3 years, putting off the day when they have to work - or more likely for many, cash in on the benefits trail!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:49 PM

What a fucking idiot you are Bonzo. Why would they pay thousands of pounds to avoid earning thousands of pounds?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:50 PM

Strong support of education is one reason China, South Korea and Japan are succeeding and the U.S. and UK are falling back. Only those who prize higher education will win the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

Does anyone else find it notable that the two students currently being argued with by Paxo on BBC2 are Aaron something and someone Solomons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:54 PM

Arguably some cultures prize education - including those from the Indian subcontinent.

Whence came its widespread rejection in the UK and USA?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,lox on mobile phone
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:01 PM

2 quick points

1. Why, according to a picture i saw today in the metro, were cameron, osborne, cable and gove all sipping champane in china together?

2. What are the chances that the 'anarchists' were planted to discredit the demo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:02 PM

The Student March at Tory HQ...Youtube


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:39 PM

Did you really have to post that Lizzie. Are you proud.

If you are, you should be locked up with the fucking idiots who caused all the trouble.

I hope that anyone of those arrested who prove to be students are given a very hard kick up the arse and never allowed to be at University again. Fucking idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:48 PM

Both the media and members of Mudcat are primarily focussing on the violent episode and not on the 25000 plus people who marched and protested peacefully.

Sadly peaceful protest is not news


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:00 PM

I agree with you Rafflesbear, but there are a few on here that would rather see the Aggro side. They shame the students who went to demonstrate peacefully.

Lets hope common sense prevails and people start applauding the 99.9% of the decent students who did it the right way. I feel very proud of them (the peaceful ones).


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:08 PM

I posted it because it's what happened, Arthur, not for any other reason..

I told you, I'm not into violence. I know there are those who live for it, and who attend any marches, demonstrations going. I also know that there are those who are the agents provocateurs....

I notice you didn't take umbridge with Lox when he too pointed this fact out...

Did you look at the other links I put in, of the G20 Conference in Canada? Totally innocent people being charged at by police, for no reason whatsoever....

I think we'll start to see many such demonstrations around the country. I hope they're all peaceful ones, but some won't be, either due to those who wish to stir, no matter which 'side' they're on, or because honest, decent people have simply had enough of all this absolute shite that's raining down on them at the moment, whilst those who've caused this entire situation have got away with financial murder.....

For way too long the British have been silent, and we're silent because we're all brought up to hear 'mustn't grumble'...

'The Age of GRUMBLE!' has finally arrived.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:31 PM

What's your objection to the clip Lizzie linked to?   Straightforward enough news coverage, much the same as the BBC has shown.

The sad thing is that if this had been a peaceful demonstration, it probably would have received minimal media coverage, which is what normally happens with peaceful protests.

That doesn't mean that what we saw there was the right way to go about challenging the coalition. But I think it is pretty inevitable that there will be more scenes like this, and worse.

One problem is that arguing that voting is the right way to try to shape policies doesn't really stand up in this case. When politicians deliberately break pledges they have made as individuals, and not merely through a party manifesto, they cut the legs from under the electoral system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

I would like to hear what the American/Canadian members think of these disgraceful acts of violence against the police and property in London today. It was not a rouge element, it was students and three were interviewed on Channel 4 news today and they can't wait to do it again. ITN news at 10 interviewed eight students, all admitted it was planned and they are already planning another criminal gathering.

And what are your feelings about British members here openly supporting and condoning this criminal activity ?

I deplore violence of any kind and ask all right thinking people to support the police, respect law and order and please condemn the actions of these students today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:24 AM

Were the rouge element getting red in the face?

You make a great case, Richie, of the need for more education.

When the ballot box is bought, or acquired by deception, it ceases to be an avenue to peaceful influence.

Absolute support for the police (no matter what they do), and absolute respect for law or order, no matter what the laws are and no matter how order is obtained are marks of totalitarianism, not of a society that responds to the needs of its members.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:31 AM

PS - AFAIK it was 52,000 students marching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:35 AM

Governments are much more violent than a few students.
They have armies, navies, air forces and police to back them up.
They have heaps of guns and bombs. They have been responsible for millions and millions of deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:47 AM

Richie... I am American living in UK and I think in these times that criminal damage is necessary evil. Property belongs to the rich and powerful. If we ruin what they flaunt before us while they steal hope then maybe they will take some notice.

I don't approve of violence against people, but unfortunately criminal damage to property typically leads to this in one way or another.

What I would have liked to see is the Police, joining the peaceful march by refusing to don riot gear and picking up a few signs. They and their children are going to suffer from this nasty student fees decision.

It is the rotten worm riddled cherry on top of the austerity pie. It represents no hope to far too many young people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:04 AM

The problem with small groups dedicated to creating trouble of any kind, is that the actions of such minority groups (who may - or may not - also be members of the larger group), will almost certainly be used as an excuse for the govt. to implement more repressive strategies in regards future demonstrations. That is not what's needed right now. The waves of public dissent need to build, not be immediately diverted by a small group of dedicated political activists getting themselves on telly for their 15 minutes of fame. The "anarchists" are playing straight into the hands of the system they supposedly wish to dismantle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:09 AM

IMO.. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:25 AM

Agree with that Crowsister.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:27 AM

Polly Toynbee,(journalist) being interviewed on BBC Breakfast News this morning said that there are loads of peaceful demonstrations taking place all the time and the media pays them no attention at all. This one got much attention because of the violence.

She also said there were many younger students there, sixth formers, who stand to lose their EMA allowance, which is £30 a week, for those who don't know. And if they lose that many won't be able to afford to get to college, stay in 'higer' school etc....I didn't know they were planning on getting rid of that as well...Geez!


From 'Richie Black':

"I deplore violence of any kind and ask all right thinking people to support the police, respect law and order and please condemn the actions of these students today."


'Richie' for those who aren't aware is, more than likely, the person who's been making foul FB pages of some Mudcatters. ALL that he is saying is absolute shite, and nothing more than trolling and stirring.....Just so's you folks understand and all. If you don't believe me, then take a look at these two, further, PMs that he sent me:


>>>"I just received a message from another member which explained a lot to me, so I wish to apologize.

You really should give consideration to hormone replacement therapy (HRT) be a more appropriate treatment than antidepressants. I had a sister in the same position some years back and saw wonderful results in a short space of time. It can relieve mood instability. In your situation, antidepressants may not be helpful and another treatment is warranted.

If you have not done so already, consider making an appointment with a gynecologist. He or she may be able to determine whether HRT is appropriate for you.

I wish you will and hope for your understanding at my earlier response to the remarks you made towards me.

Yours sincerely

Richard M. Black"<<<<<



He received my reply, telling him the correct way to spell 'gynaecologist' and...to FO.

This morning, I get this classic:

>>>"Look I honestly understand you are upset over this issue. Please don't concern yourself over these political issues if it is going to effect your health.

The member who contacted me explained the situation here. I am sorry I don't know Joan Crump, Ruth Archer or Hoff Bridges, I am a relatively new member and I am sorry if what they said was true that they have conspired against at some point here. Ignore them and don't enter into debates with them.

Best wishes

Richard M. Black"<<<<



So, there ya go...


As I said, Richie...FO


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:32 AM

Well done to all those students and lecturers who turned up and protested peacefully against what is, in effect, an abuse of our democratic and electoral system. I forsee many more protests in the future and I, for one, will be exercising my democratic right to join in despite what the right-wing extremeists on this board who would create an elitist and totalitarian state might think. This has been a big two fingers to Cameron and especially to the turn-coat Clegg.

See you on the streets!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:33 AM

Oh, and so's you know this too, I've never taken an anti-depressant in me life, but it seems he took umbridge at being told that YPT stands for 'You Patronising Tw*t' ;0)


And now, back to the march, which seems to have shaken, not just stirred David Cameron, who...may *just* be starting to understand that he's doing too much, too fast, too deeply, too un-compassionately, whilst he and his pals eat and drink at yet another G20 conference costing even more BILLIONS and BILLIONS!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:35 AM

I agree too Crowsister it makes it seem to everyone that all of the students are reacting violently like that so I was glad that they interviewed some young people who showed their disgust and critisised the violence. I thought that my 88 year old Dad would have said the same but on this occasion after watching Cameron poncing around in China trying to sell Rolls Royce Engines instead of sorting out things at home he had a different point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:41 AM

"The only thing that one really knows about human nature is that it changes. Change is the one quality we can predicate of it. The systems that fail are those that rely on the permanency of human nature, and not on its growth and development. The error of Louis XIV was that he thought human nature would always be the same. The result of his error was the French Revolution. It was an admirable result." - Oscar Wilde


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:08 AM

Just a point about the violence (isn't it a pity how many postings are discussing that rather than the rights and wrongs of the cuts - a victory for who, I wonder).
The press and the police ALWAYS tar ALL demonstrators and opponents of authority with the same brush and would have depicted the demonstrators as violent thugs whether unrest had taken place or not.
Recently there was a similar demonstration by students in Dubin - there was violence - by the police, who attacked peaceful demonstrators with such force that they have received well over one hundred complaints. Our media seems a little more ready to cover institutional violence than does that of the UK.
Violent demonstrations are unnecessary and counter-productive, but, as far as the Police and media are concerned, violence will always take place whether it takes place or not!!!! To the establishment, all dissidents are thugs and misfits, and will always be depicted as such.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:12 AM

Ms Cornish, why would I wish to send you messages ? Please keep to the subject we are discussing. Attempting to discredit another member with such blatant lies is applauding. I just read some of your comments on previous threads and it would appear you have issues with half the members on this site and publishing fantasy private messages isn't new to you. By the way, who is Richard M. ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:24 AM

"What I would have liked to see is the Police, joining the peaceful march by refusing to don riot gear and picking up a few signs. They and their children are going to suffer from this nasty student fees decision."

It isn't just that which will affect them, VT. With the cut-backs and the reorganisations, many simply don't know whether they will have a job in the future. My son is angry that there has been no communication or consultation with them, they are simply in limbo wondering what the hell's happening. So, it would appear, we have a disaffected police force who are not going to stand behind this government as they did during the miner's strike (well, there won't be the money to pay the overtime, for one thing).

Interesting that Millbank House was not singled out as a place likely to need extra protection and that, when it was attacked, there simply weren't enough police to stop it. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist but.........looks like we're in for a very interesting winter of discontent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:37 AM

It's worth keeping in mind that not all anarchists are anarchists. Some are undercover police. This has been proven to be the case in incidents at G20, and as another case highlighted by Mayomick elsewhere, also grassroots anarchist organisations in the UK. The official line of course will be that such infiltration is merely for the purpose of observation. A conspiracy theorist might have different ideas. Especially where violence is in fact instigated by men wearing the same boots as their uniformed colleagues, and then protected by them when the crowd identifies them as not being legitimate demonstrators.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:38 AM

Mr McGrath...Best post on the thread, and no responce from those who condemn the violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:45 AM

Well, I for one am wondering just why it took so long for these students to get off their arses and start this protest, which is more than justifiable having been duped by the very politicians that many of them voted for – most of them being somewhat naïve first time voters. As for the violence, well, no right minded person would condone this behaviour, but it has to be said that without the publicity that this gave the protest, the coverage would have been one tenth of what I has been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:58 AM

As usual, the failed conveyance clerk Bridge has to resort to insulting language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:02 AM

Errr... Have I missed something here? I saw that he called you a fucking idiot, you are not referring to that are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:03 AM

Exactly, Crowsister!! That's what I was trying to get across...It's sooooo easy for those with other agendas to hijack any march. I'm not saying this is what happened here, but you've now looked at the links above, followed the G20 trails, seen the police etc...

Not all is what it may first seem...



Joe, can you deal with this creep, please, whoever he/she may be. I've explained to him/her that you have my 100% permission to check my messages, and always will have, but he/she doesn't seem to care...


>>>From Richie Black via PM
"Listen you old tiger, what the fuck are you talking about with this facebooks shite ?

It's no small wonder you are the most despised individual on this site. I hear the ex husband also saw sense and legged it.

Stop fucking contacting me and go find a fucking job and stop leeching off the state and opting out of work by looking after that old tart.

By the way, black eye make up and bleach went out with the sixties.

Now fuck off and not contacting me."


Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:15 AM

Right, this thread is getting out of hand. I do not condone anybody that chooses to flame or even post PM's on a thread, concerning Mudcatters.
Can some kindly mud elf please remove all flaming post from this thread please.
I started this thread to discuss the Student march, not flaming and slagging each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:30 AM

If one person is responsible for the situation that occurred yesterday more than any other, that person is Nick Clegg

He has been elected under false pretences, he has blatantly broken an absolutely cast-iron election promise

He should resign as leader of his party and seek a by-election in his constituency

He brings the good name of British politics into disrepute

THAT should be the new rallying call because, as stated above, if you elect people for one thing and once elected they do something completely different then the democratic process is worthless.

Important and real as it may be to many people the battle against student fees pales into insignificance against the battle for democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:31 AM

Just started form the bottom, (after reading the original post) and got as far as "not all anarchists are anarchists." No answer to that, at least not before the pubs open.

it would appear from yesterday's shining example of civilisation, that not all students are students either.

I watched Newsnight and felt sorry for students. A message to MPs to examine their conscience and rethink the terms of the legislation, to reassess the wisdom of signing a pledge.. Paxman was doing his best to help the student leaders by focussing on tuition fees but as ever, the actions of those looking for a fight rather than a cause means that the government can laugh as the issue is side tracked by criminals, hence the debate over tuition fees becomes secondary.

Poor bloody gullible students. They have a point, a real point, but have lost it. I said before in the direct action thread that demonstrations are an important part of democracy, but once the criminals turn up, you may as well just go home, as they bat for the other side, or if they don't, they score more own goals than a hapless full back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:36 AM

I don't feel the students have lost *any* points. They've focussed people's minds, woken many up, even through indignation...and..they'll have given others courage to voice their anger too.

We have all been silent for way too long.

Arthur, I've written to Joe, so hopefully, this will get sorted out. I just need to highlight to others what this person is really about, because some were taking him seriously. Apologies for taking your thread off track.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM

Lizzie, please don't use a thread of mine again to highlight your personal issues with others. Start your own tread in future, please


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:46 AM

What's the matter bonzo? You think that people really pay thousands of pounds simply to avoid earning thousands of pounds? Or you just want to hide behind "Miss, he called me a nasty name"?

I've dealt quite happily with your "failure" allegations before - or can't you remember that either?

Willie, try to keep up. As all that glisters is not gold, so all those appearing to stand with anarchists on a march are not anarchists. Some are agents provocateur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:47 AM

A public statement that it would be reasonable to expect that any "Liberal Democrat" with a shred of personal honour to make at this point:

"When I stood for election in May, I pledged myself to vote in the Commons against any rise in tuition fees for students. However in light of the economic situation I now feel unable to carry out that pledge. I will therefor be resigning my seat in the Commons, and standing as a candidate in the forthcoming by-election, this time promising to vote to raise tuition fees."


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:13 AM

Don't know if it made the UK papers, but there is an interesting photograph of the Millbank demonstration in the Irish Times this morning.
A 'student demonstrator', complete with policeman's helmet, stands poised to throw a chair at a window, while a nearby photographer, apparently with all the time in the world, prepares to take a photograph of him doing so - "Ready for my shot, Mr DeMille?".
Back in the Grosvenor Square days I witnessed up close 'missile-throwing demonstrators' who later appeared in the police ranks manning their defence lines.
Incidentally, to those who claim that we should lie down and let the establishment roll over us - the Irish Government have announced that they are abandoning plans to double student grants and have reduced the increase to €500/800 instead.
Would be interesting to know if the demonstrations and the outcry against the very public police violence, had anything to do with their decision.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:17 AM

These are the same left wing "students" who belong to organisations like UAF and Socialist Worker Party, always out creating violence and destruction wherever and whenever they appear, and then blaming it on the the "extreme right". they are treated by the police with kid- gloves. It is time to get tough on such people.

So a few here still condone a fire extinguisher being hurled from the roof of the building, narrowly missing police officers below. Seven police officers were injured yesterday,tens of thousands of pounds worth of damage was caused in the Millbank offices of the Conservative party. Thirty-five people were arrested for offences including criminal damage and aggravated trespass and many more were photographed and identified as police prepared to collect evidence of crimes.

Crime is crime is crime.

Just ignore her Arthur_itus, the rest of us do. Read her previous comments, telling lies and creating fictitious personal messages are not new to her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:44 AM

I am not saying anything for or against the violence, just glad that the some were given the opportunity to express their opinion instead of being tarred by the same brush, the camera can lie with certain situations. On this occasion the police were made to look as if they were taken totally by surprise, come on they are trained police prepared for these situations aren't they? The students are not the only ones to be peeved by Camerone and poodle and I think we will see more disgruntled people taking the streets, hopefully soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:00 AM

From me:"Arthur, I've written to Joe, so hopefully, this will get sorted out. I just need to highlight to others what this person is really about, because some were taking him seriously. Apologies for taking your thread off track."

Your response: "Lizzie, please don't use a thread of mine again to highlight your personal issues with others. Start your own tread in future, please"

You know, when people have publically apologised to me on this board I have *always* been gracious enough to acknowledge and accept their apology, offering the hand of friendship afterwards.

It would seem you are not capable of doing this...and so....I therefore now withdraw my apology, for they are only given to people I respect.

I'd also be grateful if you mentioned your views to others, by name, on this thread, who are also personally bickering with each other, rather than singling me out for your disdain.

Thank you.


And I look forward to you also venting your spleen to 'Richie Black' for his comment, just above this.

Thanks again...

Oh!...and....POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

"You HAVE to be more politically aware in a day and age like this. It's IMPOSSIBLE to close your eyes to it." - John Lennon


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:04 AM

"Crime is crime is crime"
Except when it's committed by the police apparently, who, as we know "Were only obeying orders".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:20 AM

The crime, and it was a real crime, was when the Libdems campaigned for votes from students on the promise that they would oppose student fees, and then, on the first opportunity they had, are prepared to vote for increasing student fees threefold. Cleggy may take some comfort in his position of 'power' that he has destroyed the Libdem party, I do not see how it can ever recover from this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:39 AM

"You HAVE to be more politically aware in a day and age like this. It's IMPOSSIBLE to close your eyes to it."

Rubbish, I'm having great fun which I've worked for since 1964!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:02 AM

"crime is crime is crime"

No, if that were the case there would be the same punishment for all crime. As it is it varies from life imprisonment to being let off with a caution.

Also that which is not a crime today may be a crime tomorrow if laws are tightened and similarly that which is a crime today may not be a crime tomorrow if laws are relaxed.

And without condoning it, how does breaking a window compare to sending troops into a sovereign nation and killing (albeit by collateral damage) innocent human beings within that nation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:26 AM

"These are the same left wing "students" who belong to organisations like UAF and Socialist Worker Party, "

And also the same students who voted LibDem based on the promise not to raise tuition fees - and maybe even a few who voted conservative. But, of course, acknowledging the reality rather pisses on the bonfire of your reactionary and totally blinkered opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:31 AM

Curiously the Teapublicans appear to be arguing elsewhere that Bush's war crimes are not crimes if his lawyers told him they were not crimes.

Bonzo, you demonstrate the untruth of your statement - you postulate that you should continue to enjoy the fruits of the exploitation of the workers. Have you really never read any Marxist theory?

Rafflesbear - it is unusual for things retrospectively to be turned into crimes (and vice versa).


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:03 AM

Richard - I am not suggesting that laws are amended retrospectively but that to say crime is crime is crime gives the impression that it is set in stone.

what is a crime today is a crime today is a crime today would be more accurate, but even within that there are degrees and extenuating circumstances which wikipedia (ok, not the authoritative source) describes thus -

"In law, extenuating circumstances are criminal cases in which, though an offence has been committed without legal justification or excuse, its gravity, from the point of view of punishment or moral opprobrium, is mitigated or reduced by reason of unusual or extreme facts leading up to or attending the commission of the offence"


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:13 AM

"Bonzo, you demonstrate the untruth of your statement - you postulate that you should continue to enjoy the fruits of the exploitation of the workers. Have you really never read any Marxist theory?"

What are you on about?? I read Lark Rise by Flora Thompson, why should I ever want to read anything else??


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:29 AM

Notwithstanding many people do not wish to see tuition fees buggering up tomorrow's wage earners.. It is a bit difficult for popular opinion to side with any move that includes criminal action. Full stop. Most people in this country are decent if a wee bit gullible. So it is not easy for them to side with a protest when the images they see are of violence.

Mind you, as this thread is more to do with those who advocate non democratic answers to their beef versus those who do, as opposed to anything to do with poor ruddy students...

I was more interested in this from a few posts back;

"You HAVE to be more politically aware in a day and age like this. It's IMPOSSIBLE to close your eyes to it." - John Lennon

No offence, but wow... "Day and age like this.."   You realise of course there are people say in Doncaster who are grandparents who were not even born when Lennon died? (Monday 8 December 1980 at 10..00pm local time, he says without even looking, and showing his age at the same time.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:42 AM

"Mind you, as this thread is more to do with those who advocate non democratic answers to their beef versus those who do, as opposed to anything to do with poor ruddy students..."

Really? How do you work that out? More about people exercising their democratic rights, I'd say (apart from the usual right-wing extremists).


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:01 AM

"No offence, but wow... "Day and age like this.."   You realise of course there are people say in Doncaster who are grandparents who were not even born when Lennon died? (Monday 8 December 1980 at 10..00pm local time, he says without even looking, and showing his age at the same time.)"

John Lennon's words are as apt today as they were back then..regardless of how young or old you may be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:10 AM

IMHO the most important investment that any country can make is to ensure that its children are given the best possible education. That means making sure that, whatever their financial situation, any child who could benefit from further education gets it.

I wonder how much raw talent goes undeveloped because families cannot afford to let their kids go on into further education? I would think that, for many students right now, the spectre of a crushing debt hanging over them once they have finished their education could well make them think twice. Can we really afford to keep on wasting talent in this way? Maybe both the UK and the USA should be looking at making further education more affordable but with the proviso that those who benefit from it should have to put something back, either in cash if they can afford it or as some form of public service.

I haven't been keeping up very much with what is happening in the UK but, if MPs are already going back on their election promises I can see why these young people are so angry. I am so sorry that what must have seemed like a good way to protest such a betrayal seems to have been taken over by a minority of hotheads who only appear to be looking for trouble. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way of the world - just look what happened on this thread.

Political parties should remember that the voters not only put them where they are but also pay to put the bread (and whatever else) in their mouths. They are supposed to be working for US. That doesn't seem to be the case in either the UK or the USA and one wonders what the kids will be doing about that when they take over the reins in a few years time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:17 AM

This is mob mentality and it's the phenomenon by which people end up behaving in ways they would never normally dream of, they are egged on by people such as those above, let them go on the streets next time instead of keypad chitchat. It's rubbish that a hardcore of troublemakers were responsible for the damage. The support came from the group. And there was considerable support there yesterday, despite the rhetoric about a 'troublemaking minority' which you will hear about over the next few days.

This militant tribe of anarchists whose faces were covered in black scarves actually thought this government should fund their drug and drink fueled uni, years, I think not.

So clearly what impressed one or two on here was their determined walk and their confidence as well as the get-up ignoring that they smash up property, attack and injure policemen and disrupt people's lives.

I've seen a lot of demonstrations in my time and always the police action was very sensible and proportionate, but they need to take the French or Spanish approach to these scum next time.

You can shout all you like about what happened yesterday. Plainly it's not right to smash windows or ruin a building or attack policemen and women. It was dangerous and ultimately it's criminal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:23 AM

I have written before of my frustration with the Anti War demo in Glasgow in Feb 2003.

There was a "multitude assembled"....all ages, all nationalities and as far as I could see all social classes, united in opposition to what was widely perceived as a crime against the people of a sovereign nation, who were blameless of anything other than being ruled by a dictator.

As the day wore on, the politicians lined up to support the people, enthusing on the huge turnout and the orderly way the demonstration was being conducted.
My son and I stood among a group of young anarchists, we sang, chanted and shouted approval, but at the death the crowd dispersed like a wild beast which had lost its teeth and whose time had gone.

I really feel that had the crowd had leaders, we could have made a statement which could well have affected our entry into Iraq.

There was a point in the demo when it was too close to call, the people were smouldering and all it needed was one spark to start a fire which could have spread to the whole UK.

Civil disobedience, general strikes, the govt could have been brought to its knees and forced to abandon its craven support for US agression, maybe even have made Mr Bush think again on unilateral action.

In the event to our shame, we had not the balls when balls were needed and a million men women and children died or were dismembered to make their country a worse place to live in.

I heard an Iraq moderate being interviewed today on BBC4 he said most people had changed their minds about the invasion, they had cheered the arrival of the Americans, but now wished Sadaam was back.

When asked about democracy, he replied "what good is democracy, when the coutry has no law and order, no infrastructure, and a future that holds nothing but sectarian murder."

In Scotland we have a catch all phrase.....in this case its   "On ye go you students .....gerrintaethem!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:33 AM

"they need to take the French or Spanish approach to these scum next time."

Which is exactly what I expect to hear from the Murdoch propaganda machine in the coming weeks.

problem reaction solution


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 11:01 AM

I think a helicopter over the Thames Estuary would be appropriate treatment - take a lesson from the Argentine military Junta!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 11:09 AM

Peaceful protest is not news. What can you say about it?

"50,000 people marched against the raising of tuition fees today. They want the government to think again and abandon the proposal"

And that's about it, the whole thing covered. The pictures are pretty dull too.

The only thing that has brought this to everyone's attention, including virtually all those who have written in this thread is the disruption.

Wouldn't it have been good if as much interest had been created by 25-50000 perfectly behaved people marching against the proposal?

Unless we talk about the issues when large numbers of people demonstrate peacefully, we ourselves are encouraging disruption next time people wish to get noticed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

"The support came from the group."

No it didn't. Do you know anyone who was there? I do - several people. As usual you are talking from a position of profound ignorance. But when have you ever let the facts get in the way of your pointless arguments?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:14 PM

If Richie Black didn't exist the establishment would have to invent him - or maybe they did!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:11 PM

There all you socialists go, true to form, peabrains cannot take the fact that many people disagree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:17 PM

...the Irish Government have announced that they are abandoning plans to double student grants and have reduced the increase to €500/800 instead.

I think that's a bit wrong, Jim - Doubling of student registration fee "off the agenda"


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

I spoke with the chairman of a student union, who will be nameless.

He said that his group were just passing the building as people started to throw lit torches over their heads.

They moved their group immediately out of the way and moved on.

This chairman, said that nobody in their group was involved in any trouble.

He condemned the trouble makers and the student union on getting back to their university and sent messages to all the students disowning anything to do with violence.

They feel that the violence did nothing to champion their cause.

So all you people that seem to think that the violence helped escalate the issues, seemingly the vast majority of students do not want to go down that route.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:50 PM

"There all you socialists go, true to form, peabrains cannot take the fact that many people disagree with you."
There all you Thatcherites go - true to form, you cannot take the fact that the vast majority of the people recognise that bankers greed and politicians corruption and incompetence have brought the world economy to it's knees, which will lead to a drastic cut in the living standards of ordinary people, the cutting back on health expenditure, with its inevitable increase in sickness and death, swingeing cuts in the education system, which will effect the lives of future generations, reduction of pensions, adversely affecting the old and the sick..... to mention a few places the axe will fall - all adversely affecting the lives of the poorest and weakest in our society. You rant about the thuggish behaviour of a handful of nutters, and support with your silence the behaviour of the real criminals - peabrain - who?
I suggest you ask the man-and-woman-in-the-street how they feel about the bankers, property developers and other social leeches who created this mess before you claim support for your predatory friends.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:56 PM

On Look North, Students from Hull & Lincoln Universities do not condone the violence and hope that it will not stop the support. Basically they do not want the violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:01 PM

The students seem to have reacted with commendable restraint.

Reports here on BBCnews and Al Jazeera-english indicate that the police presence at the demonstration was woefully inadequate to control the vandals who came to smash and discredit an orderly protest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:39 PM

Peaceful protest has absolutely no effect on a govt which has already made up its mind.
Tear the whole stinking system apart and start again.

Folks efforts should be rewarded with better health/education/social services, not by meaningless wage rises....give with one hand and take away with the other.

Inclusion should be the order of the day not exclusion.

There is another old Scots saying about the bringing up of children.
Start hard and get progressively softer
The mantra of capitalist govts is start "Liberal" and finish Fascist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:33 PM

There are more effective and less counterproductive kinds of direct action than trashing buildings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:45 PM

These are young people with only rightful rage in their hearts...we are the generation who failed them, the "baby boomers" "the we want it all" generation.

Well, we and our children and childrens children are about to get "it all" and we are not going to like the taste.

There will soon be worse than trashed buildings to shake your head over!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:16 PM

There will soon be worse than trashed buildings to shake your head over!

What a childish remark.

We Tories fully accept that others may have a different point of view. The lefty posters here cannot accept that others may have a different point of view.

Carroll put up or shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:16 PM

There is an easy way to solve this problem if these scum take to the streets again for university handouts. Gave a 10 minute notice to the protesters to move on from any building they gather at, if they don't, hose with water cannons using indelible ink.

If any of you know the names of the scum involved in these acts of vandalism, there is a hot line set up report them.I sincerely hope they find every last one responsible for this. These so called "protest marches" always end in trouble. Did anyone see Newsnight last night? a 37 year old student (on a sabbatical this year) was making threats about how there was more and worse to come.

I grew up in a time when we respected public property and folk musicians sang about peaceful protest and rejected violence.

On another point, the Government has just announced even more cuts for the workshy scroungers in our society. Excellent news.

I honestly still can't believe so many of you here support the acts of violence carried out by these drug fueled students. Well the government will stand firm and that is what counts. How many other countries offer free university education.....China, Cuba, maybe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM

Bonzo....Firstly, I think there are too many students at university, but that has been due to political manipulation by successive govts, when we became uncompetitive in manufacturing, someone came up with the idea of shovelling school leavers into higher education, whether they were equiped fo it or not.

But if we educate our young folks then turn them out into a society in terminal decline,where nobody wants to use their expensive expertise, dont be surprised if a few eggs get broken or a few sculls get cracked


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:40 PM

No more than 1% of the total protesters decided to carry out violence.

99% protested without violence and that's what they want.

There is no place for this trash 1% and no place for anybody on here who thinks that scum 1% should be supported. May they rot in hell.

Once again a small minority ruin it for the majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:41 PM

Sculls?? thats rowing isn't it? :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

Arthur...I hope were not going to end up falling out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:44 PM

Ironically though, as the BBC journalist admitted, had there NOT been any violence then 50,000 students would have protested peacefully and no-one in the media would have taken the slightest notice of them, nor would we have heard a darn thing about it.

Perhaps the media is to blame? Just another way of looking at things..


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:45 PM

If I wasn't an Atheist I would be a worried man..... :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:00 PM

So there you have it.......and I think the little Weed knew something about it too!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:34 PM

Not going to fall out Akenaton.

I have my viewpoint and I am very sincere about it.

We all have to make our bed and lie in it.

My viewpoint has nothing to do with any party political issues. As I have said many times, they are all as bad as each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM

It cannot be denied that there comes a point at which the violent overthrow of government becomes necessary. Well, it cannot sensibly be denied.

The question is whether that time has arrived.

A government (we assume) derives its legitimacy from the fact that it obtains and retains office from and is answerable to an appropriate democratic process. As I have demonstrated (pun intended) this government did not obtain office from an appropriate democratic process (vide the placards saying "I want my vote back") and its first steps were to seek to insulate its retention of office from appropriate democratic process, and to seek to ensure that it was not answerable to an appropriate democratic process.

The time has come. Seize the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:41 PM

The reason why, or at least one of the reasons why, [there would be other reasons also , like being lied to] the students marched is valid. Some of them, or/and future students will not be able to afford to go to uni.

Politicians are mostly very well off and have no concept of just not having the money. To them it's just a case of paying the extra, and the figures in their bank accounts change.

The cost of housing is ridiculous, the banks making heaps from all the interest payments. Many students know that they haven't got a hope of buying a house in the future, and ending Uni with a large debt would just makes this worse.

Meanwhile the government spends heaps of money being violent in Afghanistan and Iraq. They then condemn the students for being violent.

We are not separate; humans, animals, this earth, our environment and all living things; we are an entity, we are one, and it is only with the recognition of this unity that we can achieve our full potential for peace, fulfillment, sustainability and justice.
Awaken, dreamer, and realise the dream of all, as one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:44 AM

London Evening Standard

SNIP

Academics at Goldsmiths College issued an extraordinary statement saying they wanted to "congratulate staff and students on the magnificent anti-cuts demonstration".

Downing Street reacted furiously to their statement, condemning it as "irresponsible". The document was signed by John Wadsworth, Goldsmiths lecturers' union president and a senior lecturer in education, and Des Freedman, a lecturer in communications and cultural studies.

It said: "The real violence in this situation relates not to a smashed window but to the destructive impact of the cuts and privatisation that will follow if tuition fees are increased and massive reductions in HE funding are implemented."

END SNIP

Heard this morning on Beeb R 4 that the Goldsmiths statement above was supported by a further 100 academics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 03:00 AM

Excellent! The Students should be supported from every angle...and quite frankly I'm wondering whether the police themselves almost deliberately held back from over-policing for reasons other than being criticised...

The whole country (apart from a few who are rich, wealthy and pains in the arses) is fed up to the back teeth and...right behind our young people.

Well done The Academics!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 03:26 AM

"Carroll put up or shut up."
Wha - put what up????
The economic crisis has been brought about by the openly observable greed of big buisiness - the traditional friend, supporter and financeer of Conservatism - say this is not the case.
It was overseen by a New Labour government, who have dropped any pretence of Socialiasm and, since Blair took the helm, have sought to market conservatism under a different brand name - say this is not the case.
While all this was going on, HM's loyal opposition offered no 'opposition' whatever to the obvious crisis that was building up; they supported their big business friends with their silence, while the banks, whose boards are made up almost exclusively of Conservative politicians and supportes - drove Britain over the edge of the cliff. - say this is not the case.
The Lib Dems, the Great Whore of Politics, stayed more-or-less silent and bided their time until they decided who it was most advantageous to jump into bed with - say this is not the case.
Throughout all this, the whole rotten bunch of them, Con, New Lab and Lib Dem were all helping themselves out of the nations purse, claiming expenses for their second homes and duck houses, selling honours, feathering their own nests, all far to busy poking their snouts into the trough to do their job properly and honestly - say this is not the case.
Ask the avarage man and woman in the street what they think of our present business and political Lords and Masters, they would happily tell you are all corrupt incompetents who shouldn't be put in charge of a local church hall bingo session, let alone a country - say that this is not the case.
Whether these demonstrations do any good or not, the the only alternative we have to them, as things stand, is to bend over and be shafted - again!!
People would be crazy to stay silent and take the abuse they have been subjected to; personally I hope the streets become congested with demonstrations by pensioners, redundant workers thrown out of work, teachers, doctors and nurses left to wipe up the mess caused by cutbacks..... anybody who has been affected adversely by the antics of corrupt and incompetent politicians and business parasites.
I've said I believe violent demonstrations are unnecessary and self-defeating, but if every demonstration that I hope takes place is carried out by club-weilding, stone throwing angry individuals ioncenced by the behaviour of 'our betters', they couldn't hope to do a fraction of the damage that has already been done by those entrusted with the responsibility to run the country.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 03:51 AM

"No more than 1% of the total protesters decided to carry out violence."

By my calculations it was less than .5% - 200 our of almost 50,000. But the right-wing scum here can't do calculations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 03:53 AM

Didn't mean you by that Arthur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:24 AM

Well when you look here at the personalities,characters and social misfits supporting the criminal activity it says it all.

Anyway, march, moan, protest and rattle your keypad all you want, it is not going to change anything. We have at last got a government that is going to deal with the loafers, scroungers, parasites and criminals in our society, oh and not forgetting students, mustn't forget them !


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:32 AM

Hey Ritchie; ever read 'Bonfire of the Vanities'? Quote; 'A conservative is a liberal who just got mugged, and a liberal is a conservative who just got arrested'. Your turn will come. As for protest not changing anything; remember Ted Heath?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:32 AM

i'm not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of the fees hike, though I was lucky enough to be educated at a time of grants and no fees.

But people who blame Clegg don't understand what coalition government is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:34 AM

People who blame Clegg understand very well what coalition government is about; it's not a reason for betraying those who voted for you and your own long-held principles. Goodbye Liberals for the next 50 years or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:39 AM

Well said Jim.

Assuming that there were 200 involved in occupying 30 Millbank, and 52,000 on the demo that is 0.38%.

Time will come when it is more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:08 AM

I support your comments Jim, until the last paragraph. I will never support violence or breaking the law.

Anybody wanting to complain or support the lecturers who seem to be condoning breaking the law at Goldsmiths University, can e-mail

press@gold.ac.uk

I have and I guess you will know which side of the fence I have come down on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:14 AM

"Assuming that there were 200 involved in occupying 30 Millbank, and 52,000 on the demo that is 0.38%."

That's far too advanced for the Blacks and Bozos, Richard - they don't do eddykayshun :0


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:18 AM

Left-wing Labour MP's and the likes of the Guardian newspaper have spoken of a 'day to be proud' and 'building on this anger' and who praised the ­protesters for 'getting stuck into the Government'. Charming I must say.

The students themselves are supposed to belong to the most intelligent section of British society. But they are protesting for a cause which suggests they left their brains at home. It suggests to me that the protesters are blind to the national deficit, oblivious to the fact that there was an "all-for-nothing culture" promoted for decades by Labour. The truth is that the money no longer exists to provide everyone with a free pass to higher education, or indeed much else.


Precious few broadcasters highlight, or even mention, the fact that even if the ­Government's blueprint to reduce the national deficit is implemented in its entirety, the total number of state jobs axed will amount to barely half those created by Gordon Brown over the past decade.David Cameron is attempting to restore a fundamental ­relationship between effort and reward, which has been allowed to atrophy for far too long.The government must hold its nerve in the face of illegal protests, it could leave Britain's economy in a perilous condition otherwise. The Government faces an absolute need to save huge sums of money, or see Britain's credit rating slump.

My own fear is that the cuts do not go far enough. David Cameron has asserted his determination to tough out the protests. If he has not used a phrase similar to Mrs Thatcher's 'the lady's not for turning', that is still his message.

He makes plain that marches and ­demonstrations, and indeed outbreaks of violence such as took place in London on ­Wednesday, will not deflect him. Those who protest have their rights; but so, too, do the ­majority of people of this ­country who recognise the price that must be paid to restore Britain to solvency.

If the pain imposed by cuts will be real enough, much ­heavier will be the price if the public, as well as this ­Government, does not hold its nerve amid some broken glass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:24 AM

Steady up chaps, our fight is not with our brothers on mudcat, they think diffrently on some things and on others I can agree with them.

The left have behaved shamefully for years supporting the system when times were good.....or we thought they were.

Abusing one another on this forum wont win the real battle, save your energy and intellect to use against the real enemy


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:29 AM

A lot of truth in RB's post......but that does not mean that this system is sustainable....it is deeply flawed and this may be our last chance to change it, if we have the guts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:31 AM

Richie; re your fear that the cuts don't go far enough. Enlighten us; what else would you cut? By how much? What would be the overall saving or contribution to deficit reduction?
Your reference to illegal protest is revealing. Yes, there were a small number of people who broke the law on the recent demonstration. As pointed out above, the overwhelming majority did not. Last time I looked, it was not illegal to protest publicly in this country; Would you deny those who protested peacefully (and in huge numbers) the right to do so, or is that just right-wing wishful thinking on your part? Do tell, I'd like to pass your ideas on to my student daughter, who was one of the peaceful majority on the demo.
Tim (proud parent)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:46 AM

Richie has not yet grasped that the finances of a nation are not like those of Mr Micawber.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:55 AM

Quite simply, the government's policies are untried and untested, amounting to nothing less than a gamble with the lives of us all. Many economists and financial commentators believe that it can't work because there simply won't be enough jobs available and it will hamper economic growth. Added to that, the Mirrlees Report has said that our tax system in "costly and inequitable". Of course, when they fail (as they will) they won't blame themeselves, they'll blame any vulnerable group that they can finger and the rabid right-wing will believe them and rant on mindlessly about scum and scroungers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lox
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 06:03 AM

Actually leveller, these policies have been tried and tested.

By the last Tory Lib coalition.

The result?

19% unemployment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 07:04 AM

mandotim, yes I don't think the announced cuts have went far enough. I see far too many young couples struggling paying for mortgages, child care, council tax and daily living while other couples or single mothers cream thousands off the tax payer each year and enjoy a better lifestyle and can roll about their beds to lunchtime. They are parasites, nothing more nothing less. It's wrong when someone of few morals is rewarded in life by a generous government handout.

We need to cut housing and child benefits and call all of the so-called disabled in for a health check to see if there is some kind of work they do. The guy who tiled my bathroom last year told me he was on D.L.A. and drove a mobility car (after he carried out the work of course) Needless to say I reported him.

Take for example a story that appeared recently in the Daily Mail. A single mother of four on £37,000 a year in benefits claims she will need a £60,000 job to make it worth her while to work.

She gets £3,077.20 a month in income support, child benefit, housing benefit and incapacity benefit. She claimed she had some mysterious illness yet goes out drinking three nights a week. She admitted she had four children with three different dads and lives in a new four-bedroom house at our expense. The new rules to be brought in by the Coalition Government will limit any single family's welfare payments to £500 a week, that's simply a joke. If you want kids, pay for them, if you want to booze, smoke and scratch yourself in bed to midday, do so, but don't expect us to pay you for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 07:09 AM

Richie - Sorry to tell you but someone has stolen your mudcat ID and used it to post a rational argument


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 07:12 AM

Ah! I see you've got it back


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 07:15 AM

I went to a crappy Secondary Modern school back in the early 60s. When I left I went to the local Technical College to do 'O'Levels (I was supported in this by my parents). When we had finished our 'O' Levels I, and a group of my fellow students, went to the college authorities and asked if they would put on an 'A' Level course.

The college Vice Principal addressed us thus: "I get fed up with Secondary Modern kids like you getting yourselves a few 'O' Levels and then getting big ideas about going to University."

In the end we did get our 'A' Level course and some of us did get to go to University.

Looks like the elitist dreams of that miserable old Tory git (long dead, I hope) are finally going to be realised as the children of the 'lower classes' are priced out of Higher Education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM

My own fear is that the cuts do not go far enough.

No doubt Black is thinking of the proposal to take away the mobility allowance from disabled people in residential care homes. The lily-livered Coalition is still proposing to continue feeding these layabouts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:06 AM

"In the end we did get our 'A' Level course and some of us did get to go to University.

Looks like the elitist dreams of that miserable old Tory git (long dead, I hope) are finally going to be realised"

I'm very much afraid so. I have a friend who went to a Sec. Mod. met an inspirational teacher who encouraged her to go to university. She got a law degree and is now a County Court judge. I doubt if anyone will be able to do this under the new system so, effectively, the law will be increasingly under the control of the rich elite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,RIchard Bridge on another browser
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:51 AM

"If you want kids, pay for them"

I'm not sure that I approve of children being for sale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 09:14 AM

Oh I don't know, Richard. My kids are getting increasingly expensive (especially the one at uni) - anyone want to make me an offer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 09:18 AM

Check your keyboard, Ritchie . You may need to wipe some froth off it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:12 AM

Heard a great Who gig from 1980 this morning with Kenney Jones drumming............ah, wrong forum...........still similar crap being discussed - I laugh!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM

Wrong Bonzo. You snort. Or maybe grunt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:53 AM

"No offence, but wow... "Day and age like this.."   You realise of course there are people say in Doncaster who are grandparents who were not even born when Lennon died? (Monday 8 December 1980 at 10..00pm local time, he says without even looking, and showing his age at the same time.)"


I realize it's biologically possible, but wow...29 year old grannies! Get a lot of them over there do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:59 AM

Well kids in Doncaster are having babies at 14 so it is well possible :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 11:27 AM

Doncaster's got GILFs! :^0


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:31 PM

This thread is drifting very strangely...


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 03:10 PM

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand I have no personal objection to the destruction of one measly office building symbolically 'housing' those who desire to destroy education (and thus any kind of genuine social & political power) for anyone other than the very wealthy. I object to it as a media faux pass, and one that may be outdated. My anxieties about "anarchist" actions are: too much too soon. My belief is that this is an age of media and information, these are the weapons to use most effectively, the time of violent protest may still be with us when appropriate - but lets explore the other opportunities afforded dissidents here and now. Mass propaganda is in the hands of the right wing. Bar the internet. As a woman, I fear premature events seed nothing except more aggressive barriers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:09 PM

CS - definitely laugh out loud. That final sentence is a masterpiece of single entendre!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:12 PM

Watched Question Time last night.....must have been the most R/wing panel of all time.

Interesting how the audience sat in stoney silence while the politicians fulminated on the "attack on democracy" "gratuitous violence" etc.
A few years ago their tirade would have brought righteous applause from any QuestionTime audiance. Are times really changing?

In a desperately biased programme, the best part was when a guy addressed the panel from the floor...."Dont you realise that we dont believe a word you say....any of you....we just dont trust you"
he finished to wild applause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:21 PM

"On the one hand I have no personal objection to the destruction of one measly office building "

Crowsister have you ever been involved in an evacuation of a public building, watched firefighters risk their lives, saw ambulance crews racing to the scene, hundreds of people told to get out of nearby properties due to fear of fire spreading ?

Clearly you haven't otherwise you would not have made that statement.
Tell us, is there a difference in students causing the destruction of an office building, or dissident republicans or Muslim extremists ?

I have never read such an irresponsible comment on any website.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:24 PM

The difference of course is a large bang and a big shower of debris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:36 PM

I lost my daughter in law in a "measly office building" bombing. Crowsister, maybe you would like to tell that to her children. Glad you find it amusing Richard. Clearly that post was geared towards me to get a reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM

Sorry Richie, you lost any credibility with me when you attacked MtheGM.

Your (published) PM to him was not very nice.

As a self avowed Tory he inevitably opposes almost everything I believe in politically, but he remains civil to me irrespective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

Thanks Richie, I'm Sorry our comments crossed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:44 PM

Richie, that is one of the top piles of non sequiturs of all time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:49 PM

You see Richie, they cannot tolerate any point of view other than their own. Do these people have a life away from their socialist computer screens? I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:00 PM

Bonzo, My daughter in law was on a three week Training Development Secondment in Ulster when she was killed. Two so-called friends on here are aware of it and clearly told this individual to use it against me. Then did you note the support response of jest came in very quickly.

Sick as come Bonzo, sick as they come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:02 PM

"Interesting how the audience sat in stoney silence while the politicians fulminated on the "attack on democracy" "gratuitous violence" etc.
A few years ago their tirade would have brought righteous applause from any QuestionTime audiance. Are times really changing?"
"
I don't know Ake, I feel "generation Y" may blanketly blame all of "us" with wrinkles. I've never believed I'm one of 'you' but of course I am now. They'll be forced into opposition to the order, or at least anyone who doesn't wish to be consumed by the consumer society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:48 PM

The QT audience, is I think, quite a good guide to public opinion.
The Rise and Fall of Tony Blair was mirrored in the reception given to labour govt ministers; as the hypocrisy and corruption deepened, culminating in the War in Iraq and the expenses scandal, politicians of all parties became equally despised.
The financial meltdown and the political reaction to it should be the last straw......maybe the worms are turning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 06:24 PM

A very politically skewed Question Time panel - and the more I see Caroline Flint the more I dislike her and think she is in the wrong party.

But I was pleased to note that, when the ultra-rightist Douglas Murray (the director of something with the nerve to have adopted the label "the Centre for Social Cohesion")launched into a defence of torture, more especially waterboarding, he was listened to in stony silence, with not a single person in the room applauding so far as I could hear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 09:08 PM

A distinct odour of paranoia from the lunatic right, here. Knowing Crow Sister I'd be sure that she would not knowingly be insensitive about the death of someone's child - and what I was joking about is plain for anyone to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:12 AM

"what I was joking about is plain for anyone to see"

"Richie, that is one of the top piles of non sequiturs of all time"

Your right Richard, it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:32 AM

I dont really understand what is going on here.

If I had suffered some personal tragedy like Mr Black, I dont think I would be using it as a card in an internet debate.
How on earth are people supposed to know all the personal circumstances of other posters.

If we were afraid to speak in case we offended someone, there would never be any discussion; and the difference between the damage caused by the students, and the demolishion of a building with explosives by an organised political/religious faction is obvious.

At this stage, people only have to show that they are unwilling to be treated like sheep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM

Most of us have our own personal tradjedies that we have to cope with, some manage better than others, but nevertheless, is is very wrong to play this sort of card in an internet discussion. It is unfairly tring to ut some guilt on a poster who opposes your view and invariably backfires.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: paula t
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:43 PM

I was actually very impressed with the attitude and behaviour of most of the students at the march. The BBC quickly stopped using the clip of the students who were being interviewed while the trouble was taking place.(Wonder why?)
These students were very eloquently explaining that they had nothing to do with the trouble, and that this was not only unacceptable behaviour , but was counterproductive. An anarchist shouted something at them as he walked by and one of the young men called him back and challenged him about his behaviour. He asked if he had seen the policewoman being helped away from the scene with a bleeding head, and asked the yob if he really thought that was a good way of expressing an opinion and being taken seriously.Fair play to him. The yob quickly drifted away after being made to look completely stupid and immature.
I'd be interested to find out if those people causing the trouble had anything to do with higher (or any) education at all. I would be surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 02:45 PM

I wish to apologise unreservedly regarding comments I made on this thread last night. It was the wrong reaction to a comment. It just tripped off something I have trouble dealing with in my life and I wrongly chose to vent my anger and in my paranoia ventured into territory which I now realise was totally unrelated. No sympathy votes required, just an acceptance of my apology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Big Phil
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:41 PM

I like to read what the deluded write on here. Maggie destroyed the pits, and kicked the arses of the miners - who were real men. Can anyone believe a few kids in London smashing the odd window will have the establishment worried. Get real, fairy stories are fiction.

Phil*


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 06:09 PM

We don't often apologise when we really should. Thanks for that, Richie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 07:00 PM

Very few backed the miners Phil, the Thatcher govt had something to give the middle class.....even something to give the working class, although they took most of it back.

This time its different, there will be nothing but tears and pain for all but the rich....and most people can see we have been robbed, even if our own greed contributed to that robbery.
Politicians, "liberals" and the media will try to convince us that we must sacrifice all we have to repair the system, but to what end?
We are in decline, uncompetitive, with no industry and nothing left to instigate another spurious boom.

If we are to go back to year zero, remember what they keep telling us.
"WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!   :0) Aye...that'll be fuckin' right!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 07:40 PM

Actually, Ake, there are a number of articles in today's Grauniad taht you should read before you tar all the media with the same brush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:16 AM

I dont read the Guardian Richard, I take the Times, out of habit and to know my enemies.
I suppose the Guardian would make me even more angry than the Times does in any case,containing as it does the opinions of the real obstructions to freedom and happiness.

I believe we are dreaming, folks need to have rather less to lose than they do at present, for any sort of systemic change to take place.
Unfortunately by the time that state of affairs is reached, the final whistle will have long gone.

Just thought I would throw in a little footballing metaphor to cheer up "Big Phil",   who is of course also long gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 10:42 AM

Any demo photos uploaded to flickr?


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: andrew e
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 05:39 PM

A report by Charlie Veitch of the Love police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_5MY0BZn3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neiR7uZAXD4


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:03 PM

"I support your comments Jim, until the last paragraph. I will never support violence or breaking the law."
Sorry about the delay in responding - an enjoyable week-end listening to singing and discussion.
You miss my point - I do naot advocate violence or lawbreaking, basically because, as things stand, it is counter productive and divisive; though I do question your priorities.
Lawbreaking is a moveble feast in today's society - a Prime Minister can send a nation's youth to their deaths in pursuing an illegal war, politicians can rob the taxpayer of millions with bogus claims for expenses, an ex Tory Prime Minister can use her political influence to prevent a mass torturer and murderer from coming to trial, bankers and speculators can swindle and manipulate Britain to the brink of bankrupcy and in doing so, risk damaging the health service, the education and welfare system, employment, the homes of ordinary people, pensions...... - all without being touched by the law. But a few nutters doing damage to private property - according to the aptly named Bozo, that calls for the same tactics utilised by a fascist junta that tortured and disappeared thousands of its opponents.
Thank you Bozo for a perfect example of today's conservatism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:54 AM

Well there you go.

http://blogs.news.sky.com/lifeofcrime/Post:196b92ea-6eed-45f7-aeed-39f2fef206a4

and the latest on this scumbag

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11763124

Well it seems he is a student. Hope he gets kicked out of University.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:26 AM

I see that the handful of pro-establishment posters are still intent on sidetracking this thread away from the main issue.
The really serious criminals of this affair are not the small handful of nutters who caused violence on the student demonstration, but the incompetent, indifferent and dishonest politicians (of all shades of conservatism) who allowed greedy and predatory bankers and speculators to damage and all- but collapse the economy, leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

Of course, Jim !! So, what should we do about it ?? Take up cudgels against our lawfully-elected government ?? Shall you be the first to raise a peasant army against our oppressors ?? I mean, I'd probably join you,to be honest,likewise millions of others, but when,Jim, when are you going to do it ?? Soon ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:40 AM

Come, now, Jim: you know you are over-simplifying for political motives. You speak as if there can only be ONE sort of "really serious criminal" involved. Surely the fact that you might regard "incompetent, indifferent and dishonest politicians (of all shades of conservatism) who allowed greedy and predatory bankers and speculators to damage and all-but collapse the economy, leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab" as being of 'criminal' intent {with which not everyone would agree}, doesn't blind you to the fact that a malevolent yobbo who deliberately and with malicious intent throws a heavy object from a high building into a crowd of people below is also a criminal {with which surely no right-thinking person would disagree}. The two views are not incompatible, as you appear to believe; and pointing this out is not "sidetracking the thread".

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:07 AM

Jim, you are wrong. You are so blinkered.

This is about the students protesting. Not your hatred for the Government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:14 AM

"The really serious criminals of this affair are not the small handful of nutters who caused violence on the student demonstration, but the incompetent, indifferent and dishonest politicians (of all shades of conservatism) who allowed greedy and predatory bankers and speculators to damage and all- but collapse the economy, leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab."

Don't be so utterly stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:38 AM

Jim, you are perfectly right. Bozo doesn't get it (or doesn't want to get it), all he wants is to stay rich and sod the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:39 AM

200


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 11:27 AM

"Don't be so utterly stupid. "
In the face of that overwhelming argument, I'm sure you've convinced us all.
You've had the facts - greedy bankers and investors bringing the economy to its knees, corrupt, indifferent and incompetent politicians now undermining the social infrastucture of Britain with their cutbacks which will inevitably bring about closures, re-possession of homes, increased unemployment, reduced care to the elderly, the reduction, and even withdrawal of pensions - where's your response to that?
So far, all you've suggested that anybody who opposes the establishment should be dealt with as the Argentinian fascists dealt with their opponents.
IS THAT IT??
"doesn't blind you to the fact that a malevolent yobbo who deliberately and with malicious intent throws a heavy object from a high building into a crowd of people below is also a criminal...."
Of course he is Mike, the operative part of your statement being "ALSO a criminal" - what do you propose should happen to his fellow criminals who created the mess? His behaviour pales into insignificance next to the real damage that has been done to the country.
Cutbacks in the health service will lead to increased ill health and even death among the more vunerable members of our society, cutbacks in education will not only affect adversely the future of those effected, but will also reduce the ability to get out of the mess created by big business and government..... pensions, carers, social workers, employment..... need I go on; I'm sure you are as aware as I am of the damage that has been done to our society by 'the great and the good'. I am also a follower of Question Time and some weeks ago I heard a woman firefighter tell the audience that she and her colleagues were all due to be dismised from their work and re-hired at reduced wages and conditions - were's your outrage about that - or has it all been expended on a missile-throwing yob?
I'm more than a little surprised that you, who seem proud of and grateful for your university education, are not defending the rights of others to have the same advantages.
Nobody here appears to be putting up any sort of a defence for the scum who created this mess, not here certainly. Personally I find them equally as malicious and malevolent as any missile thowing yob - the only difference being that the effect of the former's maliciousness is more far-reaching and damages us all - oh, and he will probably be punished by the law, while the others will continue receiving their obscenely inflated salaries and awarding themselves with large bonuses for a job well done.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 12:50 PM

Well, Jim, one wins some & one loses some: indeed I was fortunate in the time I received my university education {it wasn't, tho, of course, just the present lot that you are inveighing against that made such privilege a thing of the past}, I greatly appreciated it and could not have been more grateful. But I belonged also to the generation expected to pay for it by that time-wasting period of boredom [when not worse: three of my basic-training platoon were subsequently killed in action & a friend at my college had one leg + the MC thanks to a spell in Korea] known as National Service.

What would I do with this lot? you ask. Why, if I thought like you {not saying whether I do or don't} about them, campaign to get them voted out of office, of course: a privilege we all have is the ability to do just that. But it is just rather silly & pathetic to denounce them as 'criminals', a word of precise legal application, when you know as well as I do that they are not in any possible legal sense anything of the sort. I mean, name what Act Of Parliament they have breached. Go on. We're waiting...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 01:32 PM

"But it is just rather silly & pathetic to denounce them as 'criminals',"
You are right of course Mike; it is criminal to throw stones and damage property, but not to bleed a nation dry so people go hungry, die of neglect and lack of adequate medical cover and are made homeless and jobless - funny old world you seem to be in favour of.
"campaign to get them voted out of office"
And replace them with what? A bunch of your conservatives (under another name) have just been voted out and replaced with an equally privelege-driven bunch - Thatcher's offsprings supported in office by a party ready to sell itself to the highest bidder - which leaves the rest of us where exactly?
By the time the next election comes around (and just assuming we are not presented with another Tweedledum-Tweedledee choice) the homelessness, inadequate health, eduaction, pension will be a done deal and those who have had no part in the present mess will have been milked dry in order to pay for the excesses.
Are there none of you supporters of the status quo with the bottle to defend the past few years behaviour by those you so keenly support, or is it just "ah well, what's done's done" - or maybe, to borrow an old Liverpool phrase "Ding-ding, I'm on the bus"?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM

I haven't said I am 'in favour of' anything, Jim, or 'keenly support' anyone; except precise use of language, please ~~ apart from everything else, words used loosely and hyperbolically notoriously lose their effect, which is what has happened to the word 'criminal' as you are using it ~~ it has, in your & your compeers' writing, lost any effectiveness as a precise term & become a mere boo-word.

It is rather harsh to denounce as 'in favour of the status quo' anyone who doesn't actively militate against the present situation. In return, I would suggest it is a bit vain to try and emulate the famous countryman in the old Punch cartoon, who, asked the way, replied "Well, you can't start from here".

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 03:28 PM

Don't forget common law crimes as well as statutory ones.

Well, although the fine print of the definition does not help, I'd have thought there was something of a ring about "obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception".


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:01 PM

Mike - you are defending the status quo by your joining those who would make the only target of their bile the violent tiny minority, and appear to see nothing wrong with the events leading up to the situation that brought about these protests.
If I have misjudged your stance, I apologise, but I see no evidence here.
In the next few years, the lives of close members of my family will be thrown into turmoil by the economic situation - I make no apologies for feeling angry about this and am happy to point the finger at those I feel are the cause.
As there is no chance whatever that the guilty will be punished for the damege they have inflicted on people's lives, I dearly hope the next few years sees the streets of Britain congested with protesters there is no sign whatever of support from the politicians you say we should vote for.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:53 PM

You can't vote out the system Mike.
The financial crash was a SYSTEMIC failure. Mr Brown, whom I would describe as centre left, a believer in govt control, oversaw the further deregulation of banking not because he personally liked the idea, but because he was obliged to stimulate growth in the economy.

We were uncompetitive, and the system hates people who are uncompetitive, it leaves them to rot and moves on to easier pickings....it has always been so....it is a fact of political life.

We have two choices, we either slash the living standards of the poor and middle class, making the national gap between rich and poor twice as bad as it is now, with all the associated problems that will engender, hoping to turn the clock back ten years and reset this system so that it can fail again in another five.

OR
We can make a start on constructing a fairer society, allbeit with a lower but equitable living standard for everyone.....I dont pretend that this will be easy or pleasant, but if we are being serious, I dont believe we have any other option.

The very rich and their mercenaries will do everything in their power to smash us to pulp....As they have tried to do with other dissenting regimes...(Cuba for example).

Our defence will involve violence, and if anybody thinks capitalism can be defeated or even affected without violence they are living on a totally different planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 05:31 PM

You know, it's kind of odd, but apart from his homophobia and racism, Ake is starting to make more and more sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: andrew e
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

All You Need Is Love.

But it ain't gonna happen.

Governments have no idea what that means.

But we can still see things with love.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 06:43 PM

When one is incapable of recognising the nature of homophobia or racism, his views on the validity of diverse socio-economic systems must be taken with a degree of scepticism.

So for your qualified support Richard, thank you, but no thank you.

As Mrs Palin says ""When the Left pat you on the back, quickly reassess where you are and readjust, for the liberals' praise is a warning bell you must heed,"


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 02:51 AM

"Ake is starting to make more and more sense."
Not come across the racism - but seconded - though I'm sure my opinion is equally unwelcome.
It would be helpful if one of these tame Tories would put up some sort of a defence and explanation for the abject failure and excessisive behavour of the system that has created the present state of affairs, but I suppose that would be stretching it a little - far easier to rally round the flag.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 06:00 AM

>>>Mike - you are defending the status quo by your joining those who would make the only target of their bile the violent tiny minority, and appear to see nothing wrong with the events leading up to the situation that brought about these protests.<<<
========

No, Jim; like you, I think this a dire government, out to ruin the respectable hardworking part of the populace and the unfortunate who have not that opportunity; which I join you in deploring. (But the word 'criminal' in connection with this, for reasons I have explained above, nevertheless seems to me counter-productive).

But I cannot thereby associate with what seems to me your most odd inference, that these governmental shortcomings somehow *excuse* the sort of destructive & criminal yobbery to which we have all been witness. Could you perhaps expound your rationale a little more clearly, please?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:06 AM

I don't believe they 'excuse' the yobbery in any way, nor have I said so. I just believe it disingenuous to make that your main (only) target of attack and ignore those who have deeply damaged our society with their greed and mis-government.
Such tunnel vision has been a diversionary tactic as long as I have been interested in politics - "the great unwashed of Aldermaston" made sure we 'layabouts' were in the limelight rather than the cause we were espousing. Similarly with Viet-Nam, the miners, the Poll Tax..... name any cause that has brought people out on the street exercising their democratic right to protest.
Re my use of the word 'criminal'. It seems a little pedantic to dismiss the use of a term which is in general use in a wider (albeit less-accurate) sense. Crimes against society; humanity.... real enough although, in many cases, out of the reach of the law.
Thatcher used her influence successfully to prevent Augusto Pinochet from standing trial for torture and mass murder, which, in my book, implicated her in his crimes against humanity - not technically a criminal but......
The greed that brought about the present crisis will almost inevitably lead to reduced life style, increasing bad health, even death for some of the more vunerable members of our society, yet, far from being punished, those responsible will be bailed out with our taxes and will almost certainly continue to receive large bonuses for their work. Not criminal, of course, but I can't think of a better word to describe it.
It is now recognised without doubt that a significant number of politicians have been making false claims for expenses over a long period of time. Had I made similar false claims when filling in a tax form or an accident report, I would have faced a hefty fine and maybe even imprisonment. I would be a criminal, they are not. Buggered if I can see why, can you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:48 PM

Haven't read the thread.

I just heard that tuition has been tripled.

Now, if that is required, I do not understand why the government would not make the hikes apply to those entering uni NEXT year and hold the fees at present levels for students already attending. At least that would allow those who have already committed to certain expenditures to continue and not lose their expenditures to date.

Perhaps this has already been suggested. If so, I apologize. If it hasn't been expained to the government, which should have had the common sense to do same in the first place, I hope some of you UKers lash them in the newspapers for their idiocy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:16 PM

The increases commence in October 2012 I believe, but I'll listen to 6 Kate Rusby CDs if I'm wrong!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:09 PM

2012.10? Not good enough. Perhaps a class action lawsuit might be in order. If the government - the politicians and the silly servants - haven't the brains to get this right they should be sent back to school. The students themselves should have the brains to think this through and go about mitigating the problem without resorting to this silly ass marching and resulting violence. It all seems so silly that, again, IF it is required, NOBODY can see how to do it properly.

I keep saying "if it is required" because it is easily proven that it is not required. It's a simple cost-benefit analysis which one can underline emperically by citing the example of the benefit of just HAVING children and nurturing them. If you educate the young, they provide economic benefit in future. If you do not educate the young, they provide little except cannon fodder. Ahhhh, there it is. Yeah, I'll say it for the thousandth time... the rich subjugate the poor. In order for them to wage war to save their richess, they need a hungry, young populace which they can manipulate.

But, if the students (poor) were smart, they would sue the politicians for breach of contract, trust and deriliction of duty. After all, the politicians are paid and, thus, they have a contract to uphold a reasonable duty of care that does not bring financial hardship such as is being forced on students already attending uni. It's just common sense.

The only other recourse is to lynch the fuckers... as Marie Antoinette the T'ird said, "Let them eat shit... and die." Seriously, if someone fucked you out of a huge amount of coin wouldn't you be a tad pissed? I can understand their anger, not their violence... unless it becomes necessary.


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