BS: Students march against tuition fees UK

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:27 AM

Polly Toynbee,(journalist) being interviewed on BBC Breakfast News this morning said that there are loads of peaceful demonstrations taking place all the time and the media pays them no attention at all. This one got much attention because of the violence.

She also said there were many younger students there, sixth formers, who stand to lose their EMA allowance, which is £30 a week, for those who don't know. And if they lose that many won't be able to afford to get to college, stay in 'higer' school etc....I didn't know they were planning on getting rid of that as well...Geez!


From 'Richie Black':

"I deplore violence of any kind and ask all right thinking people to support the police, respect law and order and please condemn the actions of these students today."


'Richie' for those who aren't aware is, more than likely, the person who's been making foul FB pages of some Mudcatters. ALL that he is saying is absolute shite, and nothing more than trolling and stirring.....Just so's you folks understand and all. If you don't believe me, then take a look at these two, further, PMs that he sent me:


>>>"I just received a message from another member which explained a lot to me, so I wish to apologize.

You really should give consideration to hormone replacement therapy (HRT) be a more appropriate treatment than antidepressants. I had a sister in the same position some years back and saw wonderful results in a short space of time. It can relieve mood instability. In your situation, antidepressants may not be helpful and another treatment is warranted.

If you have not done so already, consider making an appointment with a gynecologist. He or she may be able to determine whether HRT is appropriate for you.

I wish you will and hope for your understanding at my earlier response to the remarks you made towards me.

Yours sincerely

Richard M. Black"<<<<<


He received my reply, telling him the correct way to spell 'gynaecologist' and...to FO.

This morning, I get this classic:

>>>"Look I honestly understand you are upset over this issue. Please don't concern yourself over these political issues if it is going to effect your health.

The member who contacted me explained the situation here. I am sorry I don't know Joan Crump, Ruth Archer or Hoff Bridges, I am a relatively new member and I am sorry if what they said was true that they have conspired against at some point here. Ignore them and don't enter into debates with them.

Best wishes

Richard M. Black"<<<<


So, there ya go...


As I said, Richie...FO

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:25 AM

Agree with that Crowsister.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:09 AM

IMO.. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:04 AM

The problem with small groups dedicated to creating trouble of any kind, is that the actions of such minority groups (who may - or may not - also be members of the larger group), will almost certainly be used as an excuse for the govt. to implement more repressive strategies in regards future demonstrations. That is not what's needed right now. The waves of public dissent need to build, not be immediately diverted by a small group of dedicated political activists getting themselves on telly for their 15 minutes of fame. The "anarchists" are playing straight into the hands of the system they supposedly wish to dismantle.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:47 AM

Richie... I am American living in UK and I think in these times that criminal damage is necessary evil. Property belongs to the rich and powerful. If we ruin what they flaunt before us while they steal hope then maybe they will take some notice.

I don't approve of violence against people, but unfortunately criminal damage to property typically leads to this in one way or another.

What I would have liked to see is the Police, joining the peaceful march by refusing to don riot gear and picking up a few signs. They and their children are going to suffer from this nasty student fees decision.

It is the rotten worm riddled cherry on top of the austerity pie. It represents no hope to far too many young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:35 AM

Governments are much more violent than a few students.
They have armies, navies, air forces and police to back them up.
They have heaps of guns and bombs. They have been responsible for millions and millions of deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:31 AM

PS - AFAIK it was 52,000 students marching.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:24 AM

Were the rouge element getting red in the face?

You make a great case, Richie, of the need for more education.

When the ballot box is bought, or acquired by deception, it ceases to be an avenue to peaceful influence.

Absolute support for the police (no matter what they do), and absolute respect for law or order, no matter what the laws are and no matter how order is obtained are marks of totalitarianism, not of a society that responds to the needs of its members.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

I would like to hear what the American/Canadian members think of these disgraceful acts of violence against the police and property in London today. It was not a rouge element, it was students and three were interviewed on Channel 4 news today and they can't wait to do it again. ITN news at 10 interviewed eight students, all admitted it was planned and they are already planning another criminal gathering.

And what are your feelings about British members here openly supporting and condoning this criminal activity ?

I deplore violence of any kind and ask all right thinking people to support the police, respect law and order and please condemn the actions of these students today.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:31 PM

What's your objection to the clip Lizzie linked to?   Straightforward enough news coverage, much the same as the BBC has shown.

The sad thing is that if this had been a peaceful demonstration, it probably would have received minimal media coverage, which is what normally happens with peaceful protests.

That doesn't mean that what we saw there was the right way to go about challenging the coalition. But I think it is pretty inevitable that there will be more scenes like this, and worse.

One problem is that arguing that voting is the right way to try to shape policies doesn't really stand up in this case. When politicians deliberately break pledges they have made as individuals, and not merely through a party manifesto, they cut the legs from under the electoral system.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:08 PM

I posted it because it's what happened, Arthur, not for any other reason..

I told you, I'm not into violence. I know there are those who live for it, and who attend any marches, demonstrations going. I also know that there are those who are the agents provocateurs....

I notice you didn't take umbridge with Lox when he too pointed this fact out...

Did you look at the other links I put in, of the G20 Conference in Canada? Totally innocent people being charged at by police, for no reason whatsoever....

I think we'll start to see many such demonstrations around the country. I hope they're all peaceful ones, but some won't be, either due to those who wish to stir, no matter which 'side' they're on, or because honest, decent people have simply had enough of all this absolute shite that's raining down on them at the moment, whilst those who've caused this entire situation have got away with financial murder.....

For way too long the British have been silent, and we're silent because we're all brought up to hear 'mustn't grumble'...

'The Age of GRUMBLE!' has finally arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:00 PM

I agree with you Rafflesbear, but there are a few on here that would rather see the Aggro side. They shame the students who went to demonstrate peacefully.

Lets hope common sense prevails and people start applauding the 99.9% of the decent students who did it the right way. I feel very proud of them (the peaceful ones).

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:48 PM

Both the media and members of Mudcat are primarily focussing on the violent episode and not on the 25000 plus people who marched and protested peacefully.

Sadly peaceful protest is not news

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:39 PM

Did you really have to post that Lizzie. Are you proud.

If you are, you should be locked up with the fucking idiots who caused all the trouble.

I hope that anyone of those arrested who prove to be students are given a very hard kick up the arse and never allowed to be at University again. Fucking idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:02 PM

The Student March at Tory HQ...Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,lox on mobile phone
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:01 PM

2 quick points

1. Why, according to a picture i saw today in the metro, were cameron, osborne, cable and gove all sipping champane in china together?

2. What are the chances that the 'anarchists' were planted to discredit the demo?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:54 PM

Arguably some cultures prize education - including those from the Indian subcontinent.

Whence came its widespread rejection in the UK and USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

Does anyone else find it notable that the two students currently being argued with by Paxo on BBC2 are Aaron something and someone Solomons?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:50 PM

Strong support of education is one reason China, South Korea and Japan are succeeding and the U.S. and UK are falling back. Only those who prize higher education will win the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:49 PM

What a fucking idiot you are Bonzo. Why would they pay thousands of pounds to avoid earning thousands of pounds?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM

Things are going very well for the Coalition, the socialist oiks are behaving just as expected.

Let's face it 1000s of so called students at former Polytechnics are just on a skive for 3 years, putting off the day when they have to work - or more likely for many, cash in on the benefits trail!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:11 PM

"By the way RAF is "As Rough as Fuck"

Well, we all like a bit of rough don't we!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:26 PM

But still the voilence :-) is not acceptable.
Lock the voilent bastards up.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 04:23 PM

Agent Provocateurs, CS...If you want to put a bad taste into the mouths of folks taking part, or watching, sometimes, you sprinkle a few around. I'm not saying that's what's going on...because at present nobody knows the exact situation.

I remember when we went on the Poll Tax March in Plymouth, 20 years or more ago, there was a group who were doing their damndest to stir up a very peaceful march. The police were..er...a little more trustworthy back then, although I'm sure some of them still are.....and they did a good job of keeping them right away from everyone else...The march passed off very peacefully.

People are very angry. The British are finally starting to Grumble...
You can push us SO far and then, WHOOSH! we go a little bananas. My ex-husband was made redundant yesterday. 'Rok' a huge building firm down here in the South West went to the wall, thousands of jobs in jeopardy, although there maybe a new buyer...People are at their wits end...and all the while they know how the grossly rich are getting even richer and more gross.

NO student should have to pay £9000 a year for University fees, it's just wrong! God, THREE years of that means they leave already with debts of TWENTY SEVEN THOUSAND POUNDS! How can that be right???? NO young person should start their life with those kind of debts! HOW will they ever get their lives back? How will they ever afford anything in life, house, family etc...

Geez! This is beyond tolerable, what is happening...

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:29 PM

Funny, Q, I thought you were an adherent of the right to bear arms. What for, if not to use them?

The point to this is that when democratic (oh, or do I mean bureaucratic, with marker pens that cannot bite for five years and will even then be whitewashed by the press zombies of the industrial-military complex?) means to reply to oppression are muzzled then eventually the worms will turn. Read Marx.

I'd rather that legitimate complaints were addressed within the system, but they aren't, and when they aren't the system eventually has to be dismantled.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:15 PM

Whether they are Marxists, unemployed crusties, members of the WI, students, members of the animal liberation front, or undercover police, is neither here nor there. They were there as anarchists, and not as students. The march was about student fees not anarchy. I'm not against anarchy per se in fact I'm broadly in favour of anarcho-communism myself, though I tend to think people looking for a bundle will wave whatever flag suits their purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:14 PM

When police try to control and arrest vandals in a mob, it is inevitable that some 'innocents' get caught up. The police will use whatever weapons are at their disposal- as they should. The protests at gatherings of world leaders should be put down; they serve no purpose except to add to local government costs.


I applaud those British students who withdrew when the bums and anarchists joined the rally.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

In Canada the er..'anarchists' turned out to be 'the police' who'd forgotten to take their boots off...



Just in case anyone was wondering....this is a PM to me, from 'Richie Black', explaining what RAF means..

>>>"Christ you can be assured you are not "my dear" in that sense, it was open politeness. I am certainly not into women that could haunt a village.

By the way RAF is "As Rough as Fuck"<<<

So, there we have it...

Moving on..




"So you seem to condone voilence then Lizzie. Shame on you."

I'd far rather peace than violence Arthur, but I know that people are starting to 'explode' inside with all this bloody mess we're in..and with the so-called 'solutions', so it hardly surprises me...and quite frankly I can completely understand where they're coming from..

I also know that it's very, very easy for 'others' to whip up a situation, and has been proven recently in Canada, it's not *always* the bad guys who are doing the whipping up.

But as you can see from the video I posted above, sometimes peaceful folks sit down...er...peacefully, and they get charged at by horses and policemen.

We are not living in 'normal' times, and sadly, I believe this is going to start happening a great deal...

The bubble has finally started to burst...

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 03:01 PM

So there are no anarchist students?

You need to get out more sister.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:55 PM

"Protesters smashed windows and WAVED ANARCHIST FLAGS from the roof of the building housing the Conservative party headquarters as the fringe of a vast rally against university funding cuts turned violent.
[...] PROTESTERS WHO BROKE OFF FROM THE MAIN ROUTE OF THE MARCH occupied the lobby of the building at 30 Millbank, in central London, where police wielding batons clashed with a crowd hurling placard sticks, eggs and bottles. ACTIVISTS WHO HAD MASKED THEIR FACES WITH SCARVES traded punches with police to chants of "Tory scum". The exchanges were recorded by broadcasters' helicopter-mounted cameras and protesters' mobile phones." (Guardian)

So a group of anarchists and not students (concealed faces, waving anarchist flags, breaking off together from the route) quite evidently had this violence preplanned.
The question is how in future genuine protesters can identify such small groups and prevent them from hijacking otherwise peaceful demonstrations?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:54 PM

Do you mean these peaceful people who sat down and sang peace songs, whilst the Canadian Police charged at them, on horseback and on foot, Q?

Canada's corporate police shame

Or do you mean that nice Canadian, Officer Bubbles, who terrorised a sweet Canadian lassie..

Or do you mean the Canadian police who arrested Charlie from The Love Police, then stuck him in a cell whilst threatening him...for daring to take part in a peaceful protest...

Or do you mean the Canadian Police who INFILTRATED the crowds, but who forgot to take their police boots off and so were caught on camera....with their chief having to apologise later...as those same men were also caught....throwing rocks!

It's all out there on Youtube...

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:46 PM

The G meeting in Toronto which spawned violent actions by a small minority caused losses to merchants that are still being settled, and the vandals who were identified have had court appearances.
It is the general law-abiding citizens who suffer through having to pay the tab through increased police and insurance costs.

The fee increases seem excessive, but I don't know the situation in the UK. A well-educated citizenry is a necessity; perhaps the cuts should be applied elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

"Birmingham University and voilence is voilence there :-) "

Aaaaaahh, I forgot about the Brummie accent Arthur! Yer roight, it's voilence down theer! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM

" This is intolerable and all those involved will be pursued and they will face the full force of the law"

Excellent!!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:39 PM

"..CCTV and news media footage should identify them. I hope the police deal with them and that the government stop giving students handouts and that universities give us the cream on the cake and raise fees..."

GFY x 2

"..Earlier, the London mayor, Boris Johnson, said: "I am appalled that a small minority have today shamefully abused their right to protest. This is intolerable and all those involved will be pursued and they will face the full force of the law."

I'm sure there's may be far worse to come, Boris, Ol' Boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:38 PM

Is violence only ever perpetrated by a man with a stick/brick.

I think this govt is practicing robbery with violence..against those who can least afford it.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM

From the Guardian News Blog

6.21pm:
One of the protesters who was outside Millbank today, @mikarv, has sent me the video below which shows activists on the roof of the building which houses the Conservative campaign HQ allegedly throwing a fire extinguisher towards riot police below.

The crowd on the ground respond with by booing, before beginning to chant "Stop throwing shit."

@mikarv said he couldn't see whether it struck an officer or not, "but it fell exactly where a dense crowd of riot police were".

6.40pm:
A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police Federation has said today's protests should serve as a reminder to the government to maintain police numbers.

He said officers had shown "great restraint and professionalism", but added:

"It is a reminder that the government must maintain the number of fully warranted police officers to ensure that policing these spontaneous incidents, along with their everyday duties, can be sustained in the capital," he added.

"While we understand and support the right to peaceful protest, police officers must be supported when dealing with such unprovoked violence."

6.48pm:
The Press Association are reporting that at least four protesters, all in handcuffs, have been driven away from the scene in a police van.

Rachel Williams says six more vans have been driven into the courtyard of Millbank Tower, and people are being loaded inside. No word from police on the total number of arrests yet.

Right that's it for today, thanks for reading and commenting. My colleague Jonathan Haynes will be updating the blog with any major news for the next few hours.

If you have been involved in the protests today and would like to share any photos, videos or yarns, then please contact me either on Twitter: @adamgabbatt or by email: [e-mail]. I'll have a look through any footage tomorrow and hopefully include it on the website

6.59pm:
Jonathan Haynes picking up from Adam here. As protesters are released from cordons of police outside Millbank Tower, some have been speaking out. Leila Khaled, 22, a student at Essex University described the police tactics as kettling - the tactic of penning in protesters widely criticised after its use at the G20 protests in London last year.

She said: "We've been kettled in and people are getting desperate here. It's freezing and all we want is to go home.We're not here to cause any trouble."

7.06pm:
A police spokesman tonight said 32 people had been arrested for a range of offences, including criminal damage and trespass, and were now in custody. Those arrested are being taken to a police stations across central London including Westminster and Fulham.

Earlier, the London mayor, Boris Johnson, said: "I am appalled that a small minority have today shamefully abused their right to protest. This is intolerable and all those involved will be pursued and they will face the full force of the law."

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM

"The same bums and anarchists who show up at rallies everywhere"

You can't blame today's criminal activity on anyone other than those who organized it or took part in it. We have seen it all before and heard similar excuses about some "invisible group" that turned up at and caused the trouble.

CCTV and news media footage should identify them. I hope the police deal with them and that the government stop giving students handouts and that universities give us the cream on the cake and raise fees.

The taxpayer will be landed with today's bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

Agreed Q

BWM
Birmingham University and voilence is voilence there :-) I thought I might see you in Tesco's in Gainsborough tonight :-)

So you seem to condone voilence then Lizzie. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:14 PM

The same bums and anarchists who show up at rallies everywhere have joined in and are causing damage to personal property. They should be apprehended and sentenced to hard labor.
News reports this morning say that many students have fallen back in order to avoid being associated with the vandals.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:02 PM

You ain't seen nothin' YET. This attack on the people of the UK by a capitalist govt is serious.
Does anyone think peaceful demonstrations will accomplish anything?

These people have already made up their minds, just as they did with the war in Iraq....the usual suspects are out on Sky News condemning
the despicable minority who infiltrated a peaceful protest.
Disgrace, disgust, shame!


TO the regiment!....I wish I was there!!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM

"I hope the demonstrators who have adopted a terrorist style are locked up and the key thrown away. They don't deserve further education."

I hope they go on to become politicians, because THEY will ensure that University Education is free for everyone, just as it used to be. They will have a strong sense of justice and Roots in Revolution and Rebellion, not Agonisiing Apathy which has brought us to this situation in the first place..

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:49 PM

Criminals walked on the streets of London today and caused hundreds of thousands of pound worth of damage and attempted to murder policemen be throwing rocks, fire extinguishers and tables from roofs . Last month a few on this site supported public protest and actually encouraged it.

I now hope both the government and the universities carry through their plans.

Anyone here who supported public protest against government reform should be ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

Meanwhile Cameron, in China, has been saying how Tory policies should bring the cost down for foreign students; on the contrary, students should study in their own nation and, perhaps, VISIT other nations as respectful tourists.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:32 PM

"terrorist style" - that kind of language is just an insult to people who have suffered from terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:29 PM

I think they are making a really decent protest and I am delighted to support them.

What a fine example of the education system they are, at least they have been taught to think for themselves and not just do as they are told.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:18 PM

Just another legacy of the disgraceful labour disaster of the last 13 years - will you never learn. I hope the demonstrators who have adopted a terrorist style are locked up and the key thrown away. They don't deserve further education.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

"There are so many of us here, they'll HAVE to listen to us!"
A student, on the news, on BBC Radio Devon, about an hour ago, when the BBC reported live from inside the march...

Those kids are getting REALLY angry! Good for them!!!! I just hope and pray that none of them get hurt...that no-one gets hurt, but God it's wonderful to hear anger again..

£9,000 a year! It's immoral...

I really do think these demonstrations are going to start spiralling in a way this government never imagined!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:50 AM

"No excuse for voilence."

No-one here is excusing or condoning violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:46 AM

No excuse for bad spelling either, Arfa - it's 'violence!
Which university did you go to? :-) :-)