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Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor

DigiTrad:
POOR JACK
POOR JACK (2)


Joe Offer 11 Nov 10 - 03:44 AM
Joe Offer 11 Nov 10 - 03:46 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Nov 10 - 06:29 AM
Mike Yates 11 Nov 10 - 09:43 AM
Steve Gardham 11 Nov 10 - 07:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Nov 10 - 08:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Nov 10 - 08:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Nov 10 - 09:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Nov 10 - 09:43 PM
Anglo 12 Nov 10 - 02:22 AM
Mike Yates 12 Nov 10 - 09:26 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,GUEST steveG 12 Nov 10 - 02:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Nov 10 - 03:12 PM
shipcmo 14 Nov 10 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,schlimmerkerl 14 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Nov 10 - 03:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Nov 10 - 04:14 PM
Joe Offer 14 Nov 10 - 06:46 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Nov 10 - 02:31 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Nov 10 - 02:24 PM
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Subject: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:44 AM

Any more information on this song?

Thread #54759   Message #856084
Posted By: MMario
31-Dec-02 - 01:39 PM
Thread Name: Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman
Subject: ADD: Jack Tar

JACK TAR
(from the singing of Guy Morehouse)
(Doerflinger - 'Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman' pp 294-295)

Come all my fair ones,
Come all my dear ones,
Come and lis-ten un-to me.
Could you fan-cy a jol-ly sail-or lad
That has just come from sea?
Could you fan-cy a jol-ly sail-or lad
That has just come from sea?*

No, I dislike them
No I despise them
For they smell so much of tar!
So begone, you sassy sailor lad,
so begone, you Jack Tar.

I have ship on the ocean, love,
I have money in my pocket, love,
I have gold in great store
I would give to a poor country girl
If she would wed Jack Tar.

Soon as she heard him say
Down on her bending knees fell she,
Saying, Forgive me my jolly sailor lad,
for I love none but thee.

Do you think I'm foolish, love
Do you think I'm crazy, love?
Do you think I'm going mad,
For to wed with a poor country girl
That's no fortune to be had?

verses 1&2 have a different opening to the tune then verses 3,4,5.



*last couplet repeats in each verse


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:46 AM

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry:

Saucy Sailor, The (Jack and Jolly Tar II) [Laws K38]

DESCRIPTION: Jack the sailor admits his poverty to a girl, who scorns him and refuses his offer of marriage. He pulls out a handful of money and offers it to her; she instantly changes her mind. But Jack turns the tables; he has no need for a poor country girl
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1781 (broadside)
KEYWORDS: poverty courting money
FOUND IN: US(Ap,NE,SE) Canada(Mar,Newf) Britain(England(Lond,South,West),Scotland(Aber))
REFERENCES (12 citations):
Laws K38, "Saucy Sailor, The (Jack and Jolly Tar II)"
Doerflinger, pp. 294-295, "Jack Tar" (1 text, 1 tune)
Hugill, pp. 461-462, "The Saucy Sailor Boy" (1 text, 1 tune) [AbEd, pp. 343-344]
SharpAp 168, "The Saucy Sailor" (1 text, 1 tune)
Sharp-100E 45, "The Saucy Sailor" (1 text, 1 tune)
GreigDuncan1 49, "The Saucy Sailor" (2 fragments, 2 tunes)
JHCox 123, "The Jack of Tar" ( text)
Flanders/Brown, pp. 151-152, "The Tar-ry Sailor" (1 text)
Creighton/Senior, pp. 202-203, "Saucy Sailor" (2 texts plus 1 excerpt, 2 tunes)
Peacock, pp. 316-317, "Tarry Sailor" (1 text, 1 tune)
Karpeles-Newfoundland 62, "The Saucy Sailor" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT 415, SAUCYSLR* TARSAIL2*

Roud #531
RECORDINGS:
Johnny Doughty, "Come My Own One, Come My Fond One" (on Voice02)
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Firth c.12(333), "Saucy Sailor Boy," E.M.A. Hodges (London), 1846-1854; also Harding B 11(3429), Firth c.13(252), Firth c.13(253), Firth c.12(331), Harding B 16(244a), Firth b.26(245), Firth c.13(197), "Saucy Sailor Boy"
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Will You Wed with a Tarry Sailor?" [Laws K37] (plot)
cf. "Johnny the Sailor (Green Beds) [Laws K36]" (plot)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The Saucy Jack Tar
Jack Tar
I'm to Cross
Notes: Both GreigDuncan1 fragments are too short to be clearly identified as Laws K38 but the ideas in each brief text are consistent with K38 texts I have seen even if the lines are not in any of those texts. However, they as easily fit (?) "Will You Wed with a Tarry Sailor?" [Laws K37] - BS
File: LK38

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
Go to the Bibiography
Go to the Discography

The Ballad Index Copyright 2009 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:29 AM

See my note: An Unpublished Copper Family Song: Extracts from a Correspondence ~ in Folk Music Journal [EFDSS], vol 5 #5 1989.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Mike Yates
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:43 AM

Walter Pardon's version is on the Musical Traditions set "Put a Bit of Powder on it, Father" (MTCD 305-6), with notes in the accompanying booklet (which can be read on-line on the MT website).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:21 PM

Baring Gould in Songs of the West refers to a Pitts broadside but I haven't come across one. If pushed I'd guess at a theatrical or pleasure gardens origin, early 19thc. All broadside versions are pretty standard. The language and syntax are that of the pleasure garden pieces. The earliest I have seen is a broadside of Pratt of Birmingham in the Irish Traditional Music Archive (also a copy in the BL Baring Gould Collection)


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Subject: ADD Version: Saucy Sailor Boy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:42 PM

Some nine copies in the Bodleian of the one mentioned in the Ballad Index; for the record here it is.

SAUCY SAILOR BOY

1
Oh, come my own one, come my fond one
Come my dearest unto me,
Will you wed with a poor sailor lad,
That's just returned from sea?
2
O you are dirty, love, you are ragged, love,
And smell so strong of tar,
So begone you saucy sailor boy,
So begone you, Jack Tar,
3
If I'm dirty, love, if I'm ragged, love,
And smell so strong of tar,
I have got silver in my pocket, love,
And gold in bright store.
4
As soon as she heard him say so,
Down on her bended knees she fell,
She says, I will love my Henry,
I will love my jolly sailor well.
5
Do you think I am foolish, love?
Do you think I am mad?
For to wed a poor country girl,
When there's a fortune to be had.
5
So I'll cross the briny ocean,
Where the meadows are so green,
And since you have refused my offer, love,
Some other girl shall wear the ring.
6
I am frolicsome, I am easy,
Good-tempered and free,
And I don't care a single pin, my boys,
What the world says of me.

Firth c.13(240), Bodleian Collection, H. Such, London, c. 1863-1885.

This seems to me to be a song for teasing, a parlor song for a couple who know nothing of the sea.
I will check some of the others for variant lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:50 PM

One printed by Hodges, Seven Dials, is dated c. between 1846-1854; the earliest of the Bodleian copies


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Subject: Lyr. Add: Tarry Sailor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:14 PM

TARRY SAILOR
Sung by Jim Bennett, St. Paul's, Nfld, 1958

1
I am poor Jack just returned from shore,
Lucky is my po'tion;
While I have plenty of gold in store,
Long time I have plowed on the ocean.
2
To his sweetheart's house Jack straight did go
To see whether she would wed or no,
Saying, "Nancy, will you yes or no,
Will you wed with a tarry sailor?
3
Up spoke Nance with a frown,
"To think I'd wed a sailor, no, not I,
If I could get a man of a high renown
Would you think I'd wed a sailor?"
4
Kack shoved his hand into his purse
Pulling out handfuls of gold,
Saying, "Nancy, will you, yes or no,
Will you wed with a tarry sailor?"
5
Up spoke Nance all with a smile,
(The sight of the money did her heart beguile)
"So I see you were joking all the while
To be sure that I love my sailor."
6
"If you were joking I did jest,
So that's not the question that I asked,
So I see 'tis the money that you love best,
And you won't get your sailor."
7
Jack set out in a public line
Plenty of gold and silver coin,
Which made poor Nance to repent and to pine,
That ever she refused her sailor.

"Known also as Jack Tar, this English sailor's song has been traced back to the 1700's. For another song telling the same story, see A Paper of Pins".

I will look for an 18th C.(?) version. Neither Doerflinger nor Peocock mention a source.

Kenneth Peacock, 1965, Songs of the Newfoundland Outports,
vol. 1, pp. 316-317, with brief score.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:43 PM

? Dibdin

1st two lines-
Jack came home, his pockets lined,
In search of Poll, his only pleasure
................

Anyone?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Anglo
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:22 AM

There are loads of versions of this recorded in the modern folk revival. And over 100 entries in the Roud index. A classic tune from the Sharp collection was adapted by both Maddy Prior and Frankie Armstrong for their recordings. Notes I have seen to the Maddy Prior version say she got it from Butterfield, but the one he published is a different tune.

I even recorded it myself a couple of years ago. (Modesty would forbid, but, ahem, you can hear a sound sample here on Sea Fever.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Mike Yates
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 09:26 AM

According to William Alexander Barrett, in his 1891 book of English Folksongs, "The Saucy Sailor" has been in print since at least 1781. He cites it as being highly popular with East London factory girls.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM

That 1791 date has been invoked by several collectors, but I cannot locate any broadside or printing. It may exist, but I would like to see it.

Anything on the two lines, possibly from Dibdin Sr or Jr, I quoted above? The Title given on the cut-off fragment at the Bodleian is "Water Cresses," but that seems to be a different poem.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: GUEST,GUEST steveG
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:55 PM

Q
I find the above postings rather confusing! What's happening here?
There seems to be 3 songs flying around.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 03:12 PM

Saucy Sailor, Jack Tar, the Tarry Sailor and variant titles all may refer to the same song.
Not three songs, but three (and more) titles and interpretations flying around.
Other songs such as Paper of Pins, mentioned above, may have similar subject matter.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: shipcmo
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 12:43 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: GUEST,schlimmerkerl
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM

There's a great version sung by Fay Hield and another Witch, here-- www.myspace.com/thewitchesofelswick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:58 PM

I'm sorry. I'm still confused. The Saucy Sailor and Tarry Sailor have nothing in common other than the word 'sailor' and Paper of Pins is a variant of The Keys of Heaven/Canterbury and has nothing whatsoever to do with sailor songs. What's going on here?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 04:14 PM

Nothing going on, a quiet day, good for taking an afternoon nap.

Oh, no one said that Paper of Pins and Tarry Sailor are related. Only that the idea was similar. This has been mentioned by Kenneth Peacock and others.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 06:46 PM

Well, it gets confusing, Steve. The main topic of this thread is a series of songs about a sailor's proposal of marriage is refused because he stinks of tar. Some songs titled "Jack Tar" or "Jolly Tar" tell that tale, and some do not.

The Tarry Sailor song that Q posted has the rejected proposal, but not the stink of tar - BUT, as in "Paper of Pins," the woman changes her mind and accepts the proposal when she smells money. At this the suitor smells a rat, and withdraws his proposal.

Pretty smelly affair, all round.

But to queer the do a bit more, the Digital Traditions has two songs, Jack Tar I and Jack Tar II, which don't have anything to do with a marriage proposal.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:31 AM

Just to confuse things a bit more, there is the counter-song to these, in which the girl loves the sailor the more because of his "Tarry Trousers" [the song's title], which 'shine to me like diamonds bright'], which is sung both by Frankie Armstrong & by Captain Cuttle in Dickens' "Dombey & Son".

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jack Tar / Poor Jack / Saucy Sailor
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:24 PM

The OP's request was for the origins of a song 'The Saucy Sailor' albeit under an alternative title. The thread therefore must have drifted into origins of the theme which is what confused me.

Hey, I'm old. I'm allowed to be confused.


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