Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:29 AM you can't generalise. I'm not. That was the whole point of the post. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Shiny39 Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:30 AM Well the Moulettes are all folks and not horses so their music passes Louis Armstrong's definition. Main point is that they are brilliant and getting better and I personally much prefer to listen to them than debate what they are. They are also original = uncategorisable which might partly explain the length of this thread. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: TheSnail Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:00 AM Congratulations on the new thread, GUEST, CS, I was pondering something along the same lines myself but I would have made it more general. I would like to know what is going on in all those separate bubble worlds not just the "mostly trad" one. By saying "mostly trad", you have rather moved the goal posts from the post that prompted me to join in. In response to Shimrod's "BUT if all the others stuff drowned out all the trad stuff I would stop going to folk clubs", you replied "It has in the main I believe, at least on [an] amateur level." implying, if I get you right, that traditional material has all but dissappeared from folk clubs. I think Tom's figures clearly disprove that. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Adam Smith Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:07 AM Uncategorisable? Original? You don't get out much! |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,CS Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:13 AM "you replied "It has in the main I believe, at least on [an] amateur level." implying, if I get you right, that traditional material has all but dissappeared from folk clubs. I think Tom's figures clearly disprove that." As said I was personally referring to amateur events (Tom's Open Mic/Singaround bracket) which are also often described as 'clubs' - the broad remit of the term can lead to communicating at cross-purposes. But yes, other than the strictly amateur arena, I think Tom's 30% is a pretty healthy one for anyone interested in traditional music. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:18 AM I thought the following might ring a bell... "UNESCO defines oral and intangible heritage as "the totality of tradition-based creations of a cultural community expressed by a group or individuals and recognized as reflecting the expectations of a community in so far as they reflect its cultural and social identity." Language, literature, music and dance, games and sports, culinary traditions, rituals and mythologies, knowledge and practices concerning the universe, know-how linked to handicrafts, and cultural spaces are among the many forms of intangible heritage. Intangible heritage is seen as a repository of cultural diversity, and creative expression, as well as a driving force for living cultures. Since it can be vulnerable to forces of globalization, social transformation, and intolerance, UNESCO encourages communities to identify, document, protect, promote and revitalize such heritage." |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:45 AM Sounds like the usual volk-blather to me, Richard; all humans have such oral & intangible heritage, just as all humans live in communities in which such a heritage is integral. Whether it appeals to your average Folknik or not is a matter of aesthetical discrimination. Talking of which I see the Xmas house lights are going up already by way of seasonal usage. I think in these parts people start putting them up just as soon as the Blackpool Illuminations are finished. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: TheSnail Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:51 AM GUEST,CS As said I was personally referring to amateur events (Tom's Open Mic/Singaround bracket) which are also often described as 'clubs' - the broad remit of the term can lead to communicating at cross-purposes. Indeed, cross-purposes. We need to define our terms. Since you were responding to Shimrod who said "I would stop going to folk clubs", I was responding in terms of my idea of a folk club - resident performers/floorspots/booked guest. Perhaps Shimrod could tell us which he had in mind. I go to several tune sessions which are pretty solidly English traditional and stuff that sounds as if it is and an anything goes session (sing, say, play, juggle...) which is largely traditional because of the people who go to it. There is a new songs and tunes session starting up where the remit is "Songs and tunes from the tradition or in traditional idiom." I went to an open mic once... |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Spleen Cringe Date: 19 Nov 10 - 09:38 AM The Snail: I think I have enough circumstantial evidence to work out who that might be. The night we booked her (if I'm right) a few months ago was a great success. Congratulations, by the way, on the Woodbine and Ivy launch. Ah... we must both be talking about Elle Osborne, then! Thanks for your kind words, too - much appreciated... though the Woodbine & Ivy band album is still a little way off. Meanwhile we have Elle and our Bellamy tribute album Oak, Ash & Thorn Project. I'm half-convinced I spotted you in Lewes, btw. Thought it might be a little innappropriate to start going up to random blokes and accuse them of being Snails, though... |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Phil Edwards Date: 19 Nov 10 - 09:48 AM Welcome to Mudcat, Shiny39. I look forward to hearing your opinions on subjects other than the Moulettes! |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: greg stephens Date: 19 Nov 10 - 09:53 AM Oh Mr Radish you're so sharp you'll cut yourself. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: TheSnail Date: 19 Nov 10 - 10:06 AM I thought it must be Elle. That's a rather worrying picture of her on your site. How does she manage to play fiddle so well without any arms? Sorry for mixing up your projects, all that vegetation is confusing me. I was away that weekend so it could have been an embarrasing/amusing incident. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Spleen Cringe Date: 19 Nov 10 - 11:20 AM "all that vegetation is confusing me".. I can understand that. It must be like all your Christmases have come at once for the average gastropod... |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: TheSnail Date: 19 Nov 10 - 11:26 AM Yum! |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Nov 10 - 11:31 AM Ah, that'll sort of be Sweeney thinks he is more important than UNESCO. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 19 Nov 10 - 11:51 AM Moulettes - "They are also original = uncategorisable" hmmmm... well fair enough, that would be a quite innocent and reasonable mistake to make if the oldest records in yer Mum and Dad's CD collection were something like "Oasis", "The Corrs" and "The Spice Girls".... The Moulettes are an ok and potentially better than average new band; but nothing that would have been remarkably 'different' or out of place on the overcrowded mid to late 1970's eclectic student gig circuit.. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:16 PM for the average gastropod... Oh I see now - I first read that as quadroped - which made a sort of sense with respect of canines - oak, ask, thorn, lamp posts etc. Ah, that'll sort of be Sweeney thinks he is more important than UNESCO. Not at all, at all, Richard - just cautious of subjecting the vibrancy of human culture to the fundamentalist folk fantasies of academia that's all. Why did you quote that anyway? |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,cs Date: 19 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM Moulettes - not horses says new forum member |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Will Fly Date: 19 Nov 10 - 02:12 PM I'm off to Dieppe for a weekend trip tomorrow. I'll be looking out for some Moules & frites. Moulettes Marinieres would be quite acceptable as well, though presumably I'd need more of them as they'd be smaller... |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: mousethief Date: 19 Nov 10 - 02:15 PM I thought "Sloop John B" was Jamaican trad? Just because the Beach Boys did it doesn't make it not so. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Will Fly Date: 19 Nov 10 - 02:18 PM Lonnie Donegan did the "Sloop John B" well before the Beach Boys... |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Banjiman Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM Yep, I thought Sloop John B was trad as well..... is it not? |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: mousethief Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:57 PM Lonnie Donegan did the "Sloop John B" well before the Beach Boys... True dat, but who holds Lonnie Donegan against a song? |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Don Firth Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:41 PM "The John B. Sails" is a folk song that first appeared in a 1917 American novel, Pieces of Eight, written by Richard Le Gallienne. The "secret" narrator of the story describes it as "one of the quaint Nassau ditties." Carl Sandburg included it in his 1927 collection of folksongs, The American Songbag, as "The John B. Sails." He states that he collected it from John & Evelyn McCutchen who told him, "Time and usage have given this song almost the dignity of a national anthem around Nassau. The weathered ribs of the historic craft lie imbedded in the sand at Governor's Harbor, whence an expedition, especially sent up for the purpose in 1926, extracted a knee of horseflesh and a ring-bolt. These relics are now preserved and built into the Watch Tower, designed by Mr. Howard Shaw and built on our southern coast a couple of points east by north of the star Canopus." John McCutchen was a political cartoonist from Chicago. Also known as "The Wreck of the John B." I learned the song in the mid-1950s from Carl Sandburg's book. In 1959, while singing in a Seattle coffeehouse, someone requested it. So I sang it. He grouched afterward, complaining that I hadn't sung it right. I hadn't done it like The Kingston Trio. I told him where I'd learned it—from a book of folk songs a famous American poet had collected. And that the book had been published in 1927. And that 1927 was before the members of The Kingston Trio had even been born. So if anyone was singing it wrong. . . . The Beach Boys recorded it in 1966. Probably learned it from a Kingston Trio record. By the way, the liner notes on The Kingston Trio's 1958 album lists "The Sloop John B." as "traditional." Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:14 AM Interesting, the Beach Boys Sloop John B is basically The Kingston Trio's arrangement from the late fifties. Blind Blake Higgs earlier (early fifties according to this YouTube) recording, serves as an interesting contrast. Blind Blake Higgs Kingston Trio Beach Boys |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:14 AM Fascinating stuff, but I doubt very much Sloop John B was sung as a Trad Folk Song on the occasion I refer to, rather as a slice of a wider Cultural Ambience which is common to us all which might, from time to time, include the odd actual Folk Song (such as Child Ballad #1) but includes a lot of other stuff to. It could just as well have been Yellow Submarine* for I, or indeed anyone else, cared at the time: as far as we concened we weren't singing anything so rarefied as a Trad Folk Song but a common or garden Pop Song which to the majority of people (myself included) of course it is. It only becomes a Trad Folk Song if subjected to the sort of sourcing and scrutiny we see here, otherwise it lives & breathes as something else entirely. * Mike France of Spitting on a Roast once told me how his daughter collected a fragmentary Folk Processed Yellow Submarine from the singing of other children in the playground when she first went to school, entirely obvious of its actual source. Now that fits the 1954 Definition like a glove: ...it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community. The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character. By the same token of course, our version of Sloop John B was a folk song, but not for the reasons given by Don et al, rather because we took what was, in essence, a Pop Song and gave it shed loads of Folk Character in our spontanbeous re-fashioning & re-creation of it! |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,cs Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:33 AM "I doubt very much Sloop John B was sung as a Trad Folk Song on the occasion I refer to," That might possibly depend on the ages of those you were playing with of course? It's easy to forget that other people have memories reaching back prior to the sixties - or indeed seventies for me. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: doc.tom Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:20 AM TomB(liss)said "in the matter of language the fact that a usage is common absolutely DOES make it correct." ---err!!! I hardly think so, Tom - it might make it "current usage", and we knbow how quickly that can change, but that doesn't make it CORRECT: given shifts in usage, I would suggest there IS no 'correct'. I'm still singing songs with words like 'gay little man'(Glossop Road)when his sexual orientation is definitely towards the opposite sex! But then, it's all IMHO anyway - yours and mine. TomB(rown) |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:21 AM Obviously a much recorded song prior to 1966 anyway: Jimmie Rodgers The Tokens Johnny Cash Lonnie Donnegan Somewhere I read that The Weavers recording outdayes all of them, but unfortunately I can't find it on YouTube. |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM That might possibly depend on the ages of those you were playing with of course? Maybe so, CS - of course what I should have said that as far as I was concerned it wasn't a Folk Song - rather a Pop Song of the Common Cultural Ambience, like Yellow Submarine and All Around My Hat, which is also a Folk Song, but even folk clubs gets sung as a Pop Song. I still regard Folk Song as much in terms of Idiom as I do Provenance, and Pop Songs are Pop Songs whatever their provenance might be. One time, when I worked as a carer for special needs adults, I was fond of a chap who was very religious and given to lamenting the trivial nature of Pop Song lyrics. This day the song in question was Bony M's Rivers of Babylon which was riding high in the charts at time. Of course when I told him its actual provenence, pointing out the relevant psalm in his Bible, it became his favourite song of all time. But Boney M sacred music? I shudder to think of it - although I must confess that Daddy Cool is one of my favourite songs of all time and have often thought of giving it a Jim Eldon-style Folk makeover... |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 20 Nov 10 - 06:32 AM Hi Tom , Well I guess the point turns on what we mean by 'correct' (probably not Politically Correct in the case you cite). I agree with you there there is no 'correct' if we are taking that word to mean 'approved by society', (or perhaps just 'the pedagogic element thereof.') One so hears people criticising someone's use of language as 'incorrect', when in fact they are 'correctly' using a regional, slang, patois or other variant - without which the mainstream (BBC/Queens/Oxford English) would soon ossify. (For it is precisely these generators of new words, meanings and phraseologies which keep a language developing). I think the definition of 'correct' in my post to Richard would be best expressed as 'effective.' To put it another way, a word is 'correct' if we use it in an appropriate way, to convey the meaning we intend, to the person we are addressing. Elsewhere I said "There is actually no such thing as correct language. Only better or worse understanding" and in that instance I was referring to the pedagogic meaning. Tom B(liss) |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,21st Century Bluesman Date: 06 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM For those who liked the sound of the Moulettes, folk or not... ...they are playing The Lexington, 96 Pentonville Rd, London N1 9JB – Tomorrow night, Tuesday 7th Dec. £5 tickets still available at wegottickets (dot) com (well, £5.50 with booking fee... Also playing Hare & Hounds in King's Heath, Birmingham on Thursday, the Ruby Lounge in Manchester on Friday 11th, and the Canteen in Bristol (free entry that one) on Sat 11th. Hope to see some of you somewhere or other.... |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: pb43 Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:21 AM Can anyone tell me how to contact the Moulettes for a booking? |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: Manitas_at_home Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:48 AM presumably through their myspace site http://www.myspace.com/moulettes? |
Subject: RE: Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers From: GUEST,21stCenturyBluesman Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:21 PM Contact me: Joe on 07775 744 867 or ballingthejack1(at)gmail(dot)com The band just got named 1st Runner-up in the Innovation category at fatea(dot)co(dot)uk behind death-metallers O'Hooley and Tidow and ahead front of electro-poppers Jenna & Bethany Reid ;-) |
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