Moulettes - not folk say gatekeepers

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:19 PM

The vast preponderance of classical music is wholly fixed in arrangement and form (exceptions being the Sawkins style bass lines - see Sawkins -v- Hyperion - and certain aspects of organ music) whereas the core of jazz is improvisation.

As opposed to, say, trad folk.

Does it not occur to you that someone can consider Louis Armstrong, Vivaldi and, say, Nikhil Banerjee as absolute geniuses on an equal musical footing with each other without any hint of patronisation or closet racism?

I can't speak for Adam Smith, but this has nothing to do with the term "black classical music". The question is not how genius these guys are. It's how the term "classical" is being (ab)used.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:54 PM

Spleen Cringe

The Snail, I was in Lewes a few weeks ago to visit relatives and for the Neville Juvenile Bonfire and to have a pint or two in the Lewes Arms with a folksinging friend.

I think I have enough circumstantial evidence to work out who that might be. The night we booked her (if I'm right) a few months ago was a great success. Congratulations, by the way, on the Woodbine and Ivy launch. We've booked quite a few of those people over the years and have our eyes on a few others. We gave couple of them their first ever folk club bookings.

You have to admit, deeply lovely though it is, your home town is far from normal. No wonder it has two trad-tastic folk clubs...

I think the two clubs and the many local pub sessions are probably more to do with the enthusiasm and energy of a few individuals over the last forty years than any of the, admittedly strange, characteristics of the town. We are also possibly helped by good communications; railway lines and two digit A roads in four directions.

If the Royal Oak Folk Club and the Lewes Saturday Folk Club are some sort of aberration, I wonder what all the traditional performers we book do the rest of the time.

Pip Radish

I've just come in from a truly wonderful, life-affirming evening of song; I reckon 2/3 of it at the very most was traditional

Sounds good. Not a case where "the other stuff drowned out all the trad stuff".

Reading the blurb and looking at the pictures it sounds as if the Chorlton Folk Club is working to a singer/songwriter/guitarist definition of "folk" which, essentially, is a USA idea and predates the 1954 definition by quite some time. Just because they call themselves a folk club doesn't mean that they have to put on purely traditional material. They've probably never heard of the 1954 definition. I hadn't until I joined Mudcat and I've been around traditional music for getting on for forty years.

I wouldn't dream of denying that you spend a fair amount of your time immersed in traditional music - I do myself, if only working on my whistle at home. But I'm primarily a singer

Sorry, linguistic ambiguity. My "traditional music" was intended to include song. The LSFC is principally a singers' club; I'm sure you'd like it. By "immersed", I mean at folk clubs and sessions several nights a week.

I'm only too aware that the number of venues where I could expect to hear & sing traditional songs is tiny - far, far smaller than the number of venues flying the "folk" flag.

And I am aware of nothing of the sort. As I said earlier, I suppose we all live in our own little worlds and assume that the rest of the world is pretty much the same. Just because things are a bit thin in Manchester, doesn't mean that the world I know doesn't exist.

You seem to talk as if folk clubs are just features in the landscape like hills or lakes or trees. They are not. They are there because someone is prepared to put in the effort to make them happen.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:49 PM

Cage no.

Cage yes, but with reservations - he had a lot to say on the subject and is supposed anti-improv but the randomness he espoused is essential to various aspects of improvisation in which Cage's inspiration is crucial. Either way, I've got various examples of Cage improvising, including John Cage meets Sun Ra, where they alternate improvisations.

Watch this anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUYtlMuN_V4

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:33 AM

No, Adam, not picking a fight, but sticking up for a "real world" friend. Because the tone and content of your posts appeared to warrant it. Glad you seem to have subsequently mellowed out, though.

Rude? You should have seen the post before I edited it ;-)

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:32 AM

Classical composers such as John Cage and Karlheinz Stockhausen regularly used improvisation as a means to Spontaneous Composition

Stockhausen yes, Cage no. Cage used randomness, which is entirely different (what the performers might want to do doesn't come into it).

Cage was supposedly a pretty mellow character almost all the time (and comes across that way in his writings) but the one time I heard him talk, he was spitting tacks because a group performing one of his pieces in Glasgow had thrown in improvisational stuff of their own. He was very clear about what improvisation was, and wanted no part of it.

The Moulettes are obviously aiming at fully-composed arrangements. Their performances at the moment sometimes sound partly made up on the spot, and are not the better for it. For that kind of music, slick is good.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:00 AM

Oh dear, Guest Adam Smith. First you think its somehow alright to imply - on a public forum, no less - that Suibhne is some sort of closet white supremacist.

No, I didn't.

Then you take your ball away when he gently reminds you that there is far more to classical music than the narrow Euro-centric definition that you do not seem to have thought beyond. If calling Indian classical music "classical music" is twisting words to mean anything you want them to, as you accuse Suibhne of, you'd better let a few million Indians in on the news... in the meanwhile I heartily suggest that you enhance your enjoyment of life by exploring the world of Indian classical music. I'm happy to provide you with a list of great albums to get you started if you pm me.

Ha! Not on your nelly. I wouldn't PM somebody as rude as you. GSA didn't mention Indian classical music until after the event. He mentioned Vivaldi. Is Vivaldi Indian classical music? You'd better let a few million Indians in on the news...

Does it not occur to you that someone can consider Louis Armstrong, Vivaldi and, say, Nikhil Banerjee as absolute geniuses on an equal musical footing with each other without any hint of patronisation or closet racism?

Not at all. That wasn't the issue. You've picked up the wrong end of the stick entirely. The way GSA worded his original paragraph implied, to me at least, that he was somehow deigning to lift one strand of black music up to the mighty heights of white classical music. As, at that stage, he'd only mentioned Vivaldi, I think it was reasonable of me to presume he meant European classical music. I found this patronising and condescending. He has since replied in a polite manner and explained what he meant with his use of the phrase 'classical music'. That's fine. I don't agree with all he said, but that's that. I can see what he's getting at and have no real reason to argue with him over semantics or pedantry. That wasn't the reason I was communicating with him in anyway and it's not a hobby I particularly enjoy pursuing.



Such things, it seems, are often in the eye of the beholder - especially when the beholder appears to want to pick a fight for the sheer devilment of it...


And what exactly, Spleen Cringe, have you just done?



Time for a little gentle reflection at Smith Towers, maybe?


Yes, perhaps.

And

Perhaps not.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 08:59 AM

Just wondering what the members of the band this thread was initially concerned with make of all this;
..that is if their manager is keeping them adequately informed
of his 'inspired' machinations

"..to get The Moulettes the rewards their talents so richly deserve."

http://www.myspace.com/joecushley




[By the by, a long long time ago, the manager of the youthful band I was in
was found out to be furtively trying to persuade
our teenage female backing singers
to let him advance their solo careers in show business
by posing nude for his ahem.. 'model agency'.......

managers eh... ah bless 'em...]

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:30 AM

Oh dear, Guest Adam Smith. First you think its somehow alright to imply - on a public forum, no less - that Suibhne is some sort of closet white supremacist. Then you take your ball away when he gently reminds you that there is far more to classical music than the narrow Euro-centric definition that you do not seem to have thought beyond. If calling Indian classical music "classical music" is twisting words to mean anything you want them to, as you accuse Suibhne of, you'd better let a few million Indians in on the news... in the meanwhile I heartily suggest that you enhance your enjoyment of life by exploring the world of Indian classical music. I'm happy to provide you with a list of great albums to get you started if you pm me.

Does it not occur to you that someone can consider Louis Armstrong, Vivaldi and, say, Nikhil Banerjee as absolute geniuses on an equal musical footing with each other without any hint of patronisation or closet racism? Such things, it seems, are often in the eye of the beholder - especially when the beholder appears to want to pick a fight for the sheer devilment of it...

Time for a little gentle reflection at Smith Towers, maybe?

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:05 AM

I can see now that you use the term Classical to mean anything you like it to mean

I'm not making these things up, Adam - all the examples I've given of Classical Music - be they Scottish, Indian, African-American or otherwise - are well known, and well documented. The same for Folk Music - be it the keening Kaba laments & vocal polyphony of Albanian collective farm workers or the Lancastrian comedy stylings of Gary & Vera Aspey. I'm just reporting on the facts of the case in hope of a more pragmatic evidence-based approach to such matters - and a civilised discussion of same.

Back to Folk Roots - the last issue I remember buying (certainly the only one still in my keeping) is the January/February double issue from 1991 (nos. 91/92), in the letters page of which you may read my literary debut as Suibhne O'Piobaireachd (likened by the editor to James Joyce OD'd on British Rail tea, but the effect I was going for was more Mark E. Smith). In the light of the current discussion with respect of Moulettes, it's worth noting that the grinning mug on the cover of this edition is that of Mike Scott of Waterboys fame. Cor! 20-years, eh? I see Graceland was up to #21 from #30, though Paul Simon still held the top-slot with Rhythm of the Saints.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:03 AM

Well, GSA, as you had used Vivaldi as your example of classical music, it's no surprise that I presumed you meant "Eurocentric classical music".

However, I can see now that you use the term Classical to mean anything you like it to mean, in the same way you use Folk to mean whatever you want it to mean. Fair enough, each to their own, but it makes for a depressingly lame conversation, so I'm Out.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:36 AM

"Black classical music" would be classical music (e.g. Handel, Haydn, etc.) composed by a black person. It seems to me that using it any other way is condescending. "They aren't up to Beethoven's snuff, but boy can they sing 'Oh When the Saints'."

So, do you regard classical music as White Jazz?

Well, Sweeney, that tripe from Simone makes even less sense than your rantings. The vast preponderance of classical music is wholly fixed in arrangement and form (exceptions being the Sawkins style bass lines - see Sawkins -v- Hyperion - and certain aspects of organ music) whereas the core of jazz is improvisation.

How depressingly Eurocentric your concepts of classical music, but even Piobaireachd (the Classical music of the Highland Bagpipe) has elements of improvisation and the classical traditions of Iraq, Iran and India are famously improvised. Classical composers such as John Cage and Karlheinz Stockhausen regularly used improvisation as a means to Spontaneous Composition whilst, conversely, the Big Band orchestrations of Fletcher Henderson, Chick Webb, Duke Ellington et al are very tightly scored often down to the solos.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:18 PM

And Spleen - where were you? You missed a good one.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:17 PM

Snail - I've just come in from a truly wonderful, life-affirming evening of song; I reckon 2/3 of it at the very most was traditional (including, you won't be surprised to hear, all the high points of the evening (in my view)). Tomorrow night, about half a mile up the road from where I was this evening, this will take place - a weekly Folk Club offering "a mix of young singer-songwriters and life-hardened old-timers" and a TQ (traditional quotient) of approximately bugger-all. And it's massively popular - the days when a floor-singer could expect to get as many as two songs are long gone.

I wouldn't dream of denying that you spend a fair amount of your time immersed in traditional music - I do myself, if only working on my whistle at home. But I'm primarily a singer, and I'm only too aware that the number of venues where I could expect to hear & sing traditional songs is tiny - far, far smaller than the number of venues flying the "folk" flag.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 06:55 PM

The Snail, I was in Lewes a few weeks ago to visit relatives and for the Neville Juvenile Bonfire and to have a pint or two in the Lewes Arms with a folksinging friend. You have to admit, deeply lovely though it is, your home town is far from normal. No wonder it has two trad-tastic folk clubs...

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 06:29 PM

GUEST,cs

Sorry, my previous post was a typo. Please substitute 'any' with 'an'. I have voyaged Northward and found a different kind of folk to the kind I've found in East Anglia. No doubt each region has it's differences.. I hope so.

Not sure what difference that makes.

Sorry if I'm being oversensitive, but I spend a lot of my time immersed in traditional music. A lot of people who should know better seem to deny that this is happening. I know people in East Anglia, the West Country and the north of England who share my experience down here in Sussex. It is hard to believe that similar things aren't going on in the rest of the country so what is the logic behind your statement that - It has in the main I believe [the other stuff drowned out all the trad stuff], at least on AN amateur level?

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

"Right now Miles Davis is the Holy Spirit: I'm listening to little else but his electric output from In a Silent Way to Big Fun,"

"classical music" B or W be fecked, Miles Davis Electric Period is indeed 'IT'.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM

Where are these places where "the others stuff drowned out all the trad stuff"?

Sorry, my previous post was a typo. Please substitute 'any' with 'an'. I have voyaged Northward and found a different kind of folk to the kind I've found in East Anglia. No doubt each region has it's differences.. I hope so.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:15 PM

From looking at the YouTube clips, they're a bit more interesting than I'd expect from a group of Rupert Murdoch whores ("Requiem", which takes off from Patrick Galvin's "James Connolly" played on the cello, starts very well). But they're way under-rehearsed on some numbers, their vocals are never properly audible, they carry on playing way past the point where they've run out of musical ideas, and if you compare their version of Victorian surreal punk with Emilie Autumn, you'd rather see Autumn any day.

The variety of sounds makes them more entertaining than the sort of singer-songwriter with a guitar who gets dragged out to do support at local folk clubs, but that's a genre fRoots wouldn't cover either. (And they are a LOT more interesting than the Mumfords).

I'd kinda like to be more encouraging but I can't quite get to the point of real enthusiasm. They are likely to get better, though.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:12 PM

Well, Sweeney, that tripe from Simone makes even less sense than your rantings. The vast preponderance of classical music is wholly fixed in arrangement and form (exceptions being the Sawkins style bass lines - see Sawkins -v- Hyperion - and certain aspects of organ music) whereas the core of jazz is improvisation.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:06 PM

GUEST,Suibhne Astray

So, do you regard classical music as White Jazz?

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:46 PM

GUEST,cs

"BUT if all the others stuff drowned out all the trad stuff I would stop going to folk clubs - it's as simple as that!"[Shimrod]

It has in the main I believe, at least on any amateur level.

I suppose we all live in our own little worlds and assume that the rest of the world is pretty much the same but the folk clubs and sessions where I spend a lot of my time are dominated by traditional and written-in-the-tradtion songs and music. Since the perpetrators come from all over the country, I assumed it was fairly widespread.

Where are these places where "the others stuff drowned out all the trad stuff"?

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:36 PM

That's cool (ish) BUT if all the others stuff drowned out all the trad stuff I would stop going to folk clubs - it's as simple as that!

Me too, Shimbo - as I have done on various occasions.

I find that patronising in the extreme.

You're way off. The term Black Classial Music comes from Louis Armstrong who also described Jazz as a Sacred Order. A quick search on-line reveals this quote fro Nina Simone: To most white people, jazz means black and jazz means dirt, and that's not what I play. I play black classical music. I personally regard Jazz as Black Classical Music. As I've said elsewhere my atheism is based on an inability to conceive of a higher divinity than Duke Ellington - whose music was described as Classical Music - so if Duke Ellington is God, then Lucifer is Sun Ra. Right now Miles Davis is the Holy Spirit: I'm listening to little else but his electric output from In a Silent Way to Big Fun, which I regard as supreme. Don't get me started on Art Tatum, John Coltrane and Rahsaan Roland Kirk who also spoke of Black Classical Music even recording the 20 minute Concerto for Saxophone (in one take without stopping for breath) on the aptly named Prepare Thyself to Deal with a Miracle.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:22 PM

"Black classical music" would be classical music (e.g. Handel, Haydn, etc.) composed by a black person. It seems to me that using it any other way is condescending. "They aren't up to Beethoven's snuff, but boy can they sing 'Oh When the Saints'."

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:03 PM

"It's got NOTHING to do with white classical music."

I must say, I'm not quite following this 'Black v's White' Classical Music discussion. Don't know what Sweeney, or anyone else, means by the use of such terms.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 03:55 PM

Hello GUEST,Suibhne Astray,

So, really I was asking what term you would use to describe folk music and your answer seems to imply Folk Music, so fair enough.

Now, on a different tack, your comment: The example I might give is When The Saints Go Marching In. On YouTube you can watch a non-folk rendition by the old hoarse-whisperer himself (Louis Armstrong) which is Black Classical Music, as virtuosic and intricate as any Vivaldi sonata

I find that patronising in the extreme. You seem to be saying "Look! These Blacks can somehow occasionally be as good as us!". I hugely doubt that you consider yourself a racist person, but for me, this school of thought (and I've heard it many times in different places) that somehow a strand of "black" music has scrambled to be the "equal" to what many would consider the most high-brow "white" music is the equivalent of saying "Oh, look at old Uncle Tom! He can read now as well as a white man! Well done boy!"

I'm sure you didn't mean it like that but really. It's got NOTHING to do with white classical music.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,gluey
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 01:47 PM

There are no grey areas in folk, it is or it ain't. No liminal, borderline or kinda. Just yea or nay.
Almost biblical really.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 01:38 PM

"BUT if all the others stuff drowned out all the trad stuff I would stop going to folk clubs - it's as simple as that!"

It has in the main I believe, at least on any amateur level. And the folk word as it is understood in both 'popular usage' and commercial (the former basically being dictated by the latter), certainly acted as a barrier to me in regards discovering the very songs I now like to learn about and sing.

As such I have little personal interest in the term, considering it fairly useless for effectively describing my particular interests and as such Marling, the Mumfords, the Moulettes, and anyone else that wants it, are most welcome to it.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 01:28 PM

I suppose that all this comes down to whether or not there are really any 'gatekeepers' or 'folk policemen'. Obviously the instigator of this thread encountered, what he refers to as, 'gatekeepers' when he attempted to publicise the band that he manages in a couple of magazines. But I would say that if the editors of those mags felt that the Moulettes didn't fall within the remit of their magazines - well, tough! It's a tough old world out there in the music biz - or so I'm told.

But the, largely amateur world, that I move in is a somewhat different one, in which no-one has ever told me what I can or can't sing. And I've never told anyone else what they can or can't sing (and I would deserve a punch in the mouth if I did). I have been in a workshop situation in which I, and other participants, have asked the volunteer being 'workshopped' why they have learned a particular song (some people do seem to have peculiar tastes) but that's about as far as it goes.

Back in the dim and distant past I first attended a folk club in my home town. The club residents were a diverse bunch: one bloke did blues, another did comic and contemporary songs, a couple did American songs and another bloke did English trad. songs. It was the latter singer that blew me away and kept me going back for more. Through him I met such luminaries as Ewan MacColl, Bert Lloyd and several others. I was also introduced to recordings of trad singers such as Sam Larner, Harry Cox etc., etc. When I eventually encountered the '1954 definition' it made sense to me BUT it didn't necessarily fit all the stuff that was being performed in folk clubs then and it doesn't fit all of the stuff that is being performed in folk clubs 40 odd years later. That's cool (ish) BUT if all the others stuff drowned out all the trad stuff I would stop going to folk clubs - it's as simple as that!

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

Well for a start I'm not saying no to anything, on the contrary - I'm saying a big yes to a more inclusive understanding based on what happens in the name of Folk be it in magazines, fora, festivals, clubs, singarounds & other Designated Folk Contexts the world over. I'm not too sure about the preservation aspect of it because, for me, it's about human individuals doing what they do anyway - bringing their passions to bear on things they care very deeply about - like (say) Dave Bishop's masterful singing & sourcing of English Traditional Folk Song in Chorlton; to me this is as much about Dave as a person as it is about the Tradition he's drawing upon, which in terms of a Living Music snuffed it long ago, but which remains nonetheless potent in a singer like Dave.

Given the breadth of music discussed on Mudcat I'd say the remit is just about right, although not all of that music is Folk Music, but all of it can be Folk Music in the right context. The example I might give is When The Saints Go Marching In. On YouTube you can watch a non-folk rendition by the old hoarse-whisperer himself (Louis Armstrong) which is Black Classical Music, as virtuosic and intricate as any Vivaldi sonata - OR you might seek out the version filmed at Matt Armour's club some years ago in Milton Keynes, which is very much Folk Music for reasons which should be self-evident. Both represent music of incredible warmth and humanity - but the former is utterly exclusive in terms of its mastery, whilst the latter utterly inclusive in terms of its come-all-ye ethos.

For more of my feelings on this, see the 1954 and All That thread, but remember I'm arguing a very big YES here in the face of a more orthodox view of things which I find as ill-conceived as it is stifling.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 11:34 AM

"Moulettes not 'it' - say magazine"

Might have a more appropriate thread title.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 11:28 AM

Define what?

Define it!



Ah Pardon my curiosity GUEST,Suibhne Astray, I was just wondering, since you appear to be fond of disseminating the term "folk" (to mean traditional based music), what you would replace it with, if anything?

Now, you'll have to excuse me, I'm no fan of debating and pedantry. I do believe you know what I mean by this question. I'm genuinely interested in what term you use.

Or to put it another way, Mudcat declares thus:

"The Mudcat Cafe and The Digital Tradition are dedicated to the preservation and appreciation of blues and folk music."

How would you put it? It's very easy to say "no" to everything without providing a "yes".

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

World Music

World Music was a term used by certain jazz musicians in the 60s & 70s - the AACM people used it a lot, particularly The Art Ensemble of Chicago, whose Ancient to the Future philosophy was an acknowledgement of their explorations of their Great Black Music cultural continuty and their encouragement to others to do likewise. Scottish jazz drummer Ken Hyder cites the Art Ensemble as a crucial inspiration in his formation of Talisker, who explored various Scottish traditional idioms from a free-jazz perspective - diddling, waulking songs, folk songs, dance music, piobaireachd - in a series of very fine albums. Don Cherry spoke of both World Music and Folk Music, embodying a sense of both in his music which remained firmly rooted in the free-jazz ethic; Johnny Mbizo Dyani likewise regarded what he did as Folk, though I doubt many Folkies would appreciate his various renderings of his native Xhosa folk songs. Duke Ellington embodied a similar sense in his Cotton Club jungle-music which was always more than just random exotica for his white audiences; in later years it found expression on the masterpieces of The Far-East Suite (1966) and Afro-Eurasian Eclipse (1971).

I remember well the World Music / Roots ethos of the 80s, one noxious upshot of which was the aberration of Paul Simon's Graceland dominating the Folk Roots charts for what seemed like an eternity, yet never a mention of Dudu Pukwana, Mongezi Feza, Johnny Dyani, Abdullah Ibrahim etc. whose truly World Music in exile was revolutionary in more ways than one.

*

Define what?

Define it!

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 10:04 AM

Define what?

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Ian Anderson
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:48 AM

Ian Anderson would be about the last person in the world to define 'folk', having invented the phrase 'roots music' specifically as an alternative to what he saw as a uselessly imprecise term

You're quite right on the first point, but wrong on the second. The phrase 'roots music' was already in common useage in the 70s. It fell into favour in the 80s and so got used quite often in our pages then, less so nowadays. I certainly didn't invent or even popularise it. The only thing I had a hand in was the 1987 campaign which created the 'world music' box in record shops, and that was never a definition of anything, just a marketing badge of convenience that took off far, far beyond the expectations of those involved.

As several people have already pointed out, the single only thing that fRoots tries - poorly - to define is the musical remit of fRoots. Because we can't possibly and don't want to include all kinds of music, many of which are thoroughly and better covered elsewhere so don't need us anyway. There's a FAQ on our web site and the single only (broad-brush, gut feeling, keeping the door open for fringe stuff we like but can't really explain why!) way it tries to define anything is as follows:

Q: Before I send you my CD, what sort of music will you actually review?
A: As a simple guide, what fRoots covers is music, however ancient or modern, that has some clear roots in a tradition. Neither the instruments or level of technology employed nor an artist's nationality are particularly relevant. For example, neither the act of playing an acoustic instrument or singing in a language other than English have a major significance either way. It ain't how you do it, it's what you do!

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:46 AM

Call what?

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:39 AM

What do you call "it" GUEST,Suibhne Astray?

Just curious.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:37 AM

having invented the phrase 'roots music' specifically as an alternative to what he saw as a uselessly imprecise term.

Like Roots Music is any better! All music has Roots - it's in the nature of Music; just all music in being determined by a particular Tradition, is Traditional. Surely the imprecision of Folk (which was built-in from the word go) has become one of its abiding strengths, reflecting a diversity of approaches down the years each of which is very much down to the individual perpetrator and their own particular tradition.

Folk endures for the best - hardly unifying, but comforting in the wider sense of things, especially for we vagrant souls who enjoy that sense of belonging which the Folk Scene is both big enough & small enough to accommodate.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Folknacious
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:21 AM

Ian Anderson said above: And I can only echo others: if all those proper grownup mass-circulation publications say they're the bees knees, why care what little fRoots or S***lines thinks?

Perhaps I'm being cynical, but could it be because so far they can't get arrested anywhere else? Maybe their manager thinks that the media fashionable folk scene will be a soft touch launch pad from which to propel them to fame and fortune? When the most high profile folk event to the general public is Cambridge Folk Festival who regularly book rock artists and American 'heritage acts', and who then get all the TV coverage, there's little surprise that uninformed managers start to see dollar signs.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:17 AM

"a popular usage inclusive of many different styles, idioms, genres, approaches"

As far as "popular usage" goes, I fear you're being a tad optimistic with all those delightful variables! For anyone not already a folk fan (ie: the vast majority of word users), it pretty much means two things ie: 'fiddley diddley' or 'girl/bloke sitting on a stool while strumming an acoustic guitar'.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:09 AM

since i first started buying records

[Chicory Tip, Lindisfarne, Alice Cooper... saving up 20 new pence a week pocket money for 7" singles..]

I've been quite comfy with the general usage terms

'Trad Folk'

&   

'Contemporary folk'

mix and measure as required with a few traces of 'soft rock' 'heavy rock' 'prog' 'punk'.. [and whatever else since 1977..]
and my musical cosmology has been reasonably understandable stable and secure for at least 3 decades..


So most of the time i really can't care what all the effin fuss is about...

but then i've never been much of an enthusiastic academic or grim faced obsessive pedant...

If, for example, Burnham on sea free Folk Fest were to book Moulettes, I'd go see 'em out of curiosity
[definitely if they played in one of the few pubs that still serve local rough cider on tap..]
cos its the sort of girly 'novelty fancy dress stage costume' music
the mrs is keen on, which would go down well at certain pub venues,
and she usually gets her own way at festivals..

..unless they clashed with a really good local band i enjoy,
like Surfin Turnips or The Cherry Pickers...

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:05 AM

Every specialist media outlet and every live event, across all musical genres, has a sense of its own boundaries, defined by an individual artistic director, a committee or a constitution. Those people are 'gatekeepers' only to their own productions - there are no gatekeepers, official or otherwise, to the world of folk music, and it's irritating to find the word coming up repeatedly in a pejorative sense.

Ian Anderson would be about the last person in the world to define 'folk', having invented the phrase 'roots music' specifically as an alternative to what he saw as a uselessly imprecise term.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:57 AM

How's it insulting, Shimbo? I directed it against a general attitude of an apparant & ill-founded orthodoxy which mutters of correct usage in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is none. Like God, Folk is a concept predicated on a myth; unlike God, Folk is a useful umbrella term for various genres (musical or otherwise) sharing similar aesthetic roots, though I might be at a loss to discern a common link between Bert Lloyd's collection of Folk Music of Albania and Gary & Vera Aspey's A Taste of Hotpot, but both were released by Topic, and both remain very firmly Folk despite any perceived disparities on my part.

Meanings arise from common objective experience; no one will dispute the parameters of what is meant by Dog, Beehive, Latex, Teapot, Irish Jig or Skrimshaw - these things exist and are quantifiable in objective terms. Folk, on the other hand, doesn't exist - it is a redundant concept of a cultural condition that has given rise to a popular usage inclusive of many different styles, idioms, genres, approaches and, by jove, possibilities. Keep 'em coming that's what I say; the more the merrier!

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:20 AM

I didn't like 'folk' music before I discovered traditional folk song (for all the reasons cited above), and after discovering traditional folk song I still don't like 'folk' music very much. So I really don't care what kind of music 'folk' is or isn't or who chooses to use the term. Even so, if people who actually consider themselves folk fans think Moulettes management were banging on the wrong gate, maybe they'd be better off banging on another kind of gate? They'd go down a storm at those kind of fests.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:03 AM

Words do have meaning. They mean what people use them to mean. That's what it means to mean.

Obviously true - things are named by the names that people name them with. And yet, and yet...

"That's a dog," says John. "Yes," says Jane. "You are right. That is a dog."

"That's not a dog," says Jane. "No," says John. "You are right. It is a cat, or it could be a small goat, or else it may be a beast the name of which we do not yet know to us. But dog it ain't."

"That's folk," says Jane. "Yes," says John. "That works for me. That is folk."

"That's not folk," says John. "What the-?" says Jane. "How dare you say that's not folk? Who died and made you King of the Gate? Clean out your ears! I say it's folk, they say it's folk, lots of us say it's folk! Of course it's folk! La la la la la, I can hear you not!"

Some kinds of naming seem to be a lot more controversial than others.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 06:35 AM

" ... where the toothless orthodoxy are gurning with cantankerous displeasure than anyone younger than 60 should dare intrude upon their precious (though entirely imaginary) domain."

No, not at all insulting that, Suibhne!

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM

PS:

and then insulting anyone who might possibly disagree with you

I didn't mean to insult anyone here by the way, just reacting against the general tone of the thread which smacks of a Folk Fundamentalism that is hardly born out by closer analysis of The Scene as a whole. What is true for a you (or a me) isn't necessarily true for anyone else; so keep it real, objective & mutable.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:27 AM

Of course words do have meaning, which is how language works. Some meanings are relatively fixed; if we say Dog we have a fair idea of the sort of thing we're on about (overly sycophantic quadroped noted for the stench and generosity of its faeces) - but if we say God, then we're apt to come unstuck. In the specifics of musical genres things are pretty clear too - if I buy a record of Gagaku I know pretty much what I'm in for, likewise Piobaireachd or Rebetika. Folk, on the other hand, like God, is a loose fitting mutable generality wide enough to accomodate a multitude of possibilities - including Moulettes, Marling, & Mumford, and a good deal more besides - all of whom clearly have roots in the Folk Aesthetic of the last 100 years (and all that involves) and are using that how they see fit.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:12 AM

Up to a point, Lord Copper...

The last time I saw the Alex Harvey Band - with Mox Gowland on blues harp - around 1966 or '67, they were playing high-powered, ear-blasting, full-blooded rhythm and blues. Several miles, musically, from the Moulettes. :-)

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:09 AM

Do they cite any skiffle artists as an influence? Next to the ren-fayre / caberet thing, that's the sound I hear coming through most strongly. In fact there's something of The Sensational Alex Harvey Band about it all.

Subject: RE: Moulettes – not folk say gatekeepers
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 03:56 AM

Apologies for the endless italics! Should have stopped at "Komedia in Brighton"...