Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM

In the centre of Culross is a memorial to one of it's most famous sons, Thomas Cochrane, 10th Earl of Dundonald, Scotland's most outstanding naval hero.

Taken from undiscovered scotland page on Culross

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: John Routledge
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 04:07 PM

Above was me minus cookie

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 01:57 PM

Thanks for a fascinating thread. Inspires me to read Cochrane The Dauntless purchased at the National Trust for Scotland bookshop in Culross.It was strongly recommended by an amazing guide who was absorbed in his subject.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 04:45 AM

Terry

Don't use this thread for your pedantry.
Bugger off else where. We have other things to do here.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 03:54 AM

In interests of accuracy ~~ I meant "Regards"; & only one comma after 'accuracy' in penultimate line.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 03:51 AM

Yes, Terry; I like accuracy too: as I never tire of relating, a poster on another forum I frequent recently posted the message "MtheGM, your pedantry is legendary".

BUT your objections to my and Bubbly's use of "marquis" were INACCURATE, as I conclusively demonstrated to you in my post of Nov 26 12.15 PM. So, as a lover of accuracy, you should have apologised to us both for your [this time] misplaced striving after accuracy,, rather than maintaining the silence with which that post was received; shouldn't you?

Regarda


~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 03:44 AM

Effingham, Grenville, Raleigh, Drake, Essex, Howard, Benbow, Collingwood, Byron, Blake, Rodney, Duncan, Nelson ===
these are the names that Sir Henry Newbolt mentions, at least once and some repeated, in his fine poem Admirals All (1897).

But no Cochrane.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:56 PM

I just like accuracy in historical references.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:27 PM

MtheGM ;
          You-know-who had a good go at me too, recently, for using "Marquis" instead of "Marquess",which I found somewhat irritating .

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:03 PM

Les-

"Thomas Cochrane's uncle, who was quite beastly to 'Mercans in the War of 1812."

Just because he plundered and burnt our capitol doesn't necessarily mean he was acting "beastly." We'd never hold that against him!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 05:19 PM

Thank you, Les. That suggests that Pete's ancestor survived the wars & continued in service, & that his Commander's cocked-hat dates from then.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 04:11 PM

M the GM - Surgeons gained commisioned officer status at some point after the Napoleonic Wars. I'm sorry I have not yet turned up any other details about George Bellamy's service, but as he was medically qualified he must have been in the forefront of Naval Surgeons, though not classed as Physician (who mainly served in Naval Hospitals).

Thanks Anglogeezer - the first song you posted is excellent, the second one is a different Cochrane. There were a number of Admiral Cochranes not the least of whom was Thomas Cochrane's uncle, who was quite beastly to 'Mercans in the War of 1812.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

WIKPEDIA says :-

"The distribution of prize money to the crews of the ships involved persisted until 1918. Then the Naval Prize Act changed the system to one where the prize money was paid into a common fund from which a payment was made to all naval personnel whether or not they were involved in the action. In 1945, this was further modified to allow for the distribution to be made to RAF personnel who had been involved in the capture of enemy ships."

regards
Jake

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM

The last line is interesting. "And for our reward we'll boldly go, Boys, to our gracious queen." The implication is that any property recovered would have been droits of the Admiralty, rather than of the Crown, so there would have been no share out of prize money and head money. There would have had to have been a declared state of war with the pirates. Otherwise the recovery would have devolved upon the Admiralty and, presumably, the insurors of the vessels and cargos.

Also, when was the potential of prize money removed from the Royal Navy?

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

Again Jake Thanks a lot.

Now to work out some sort of tune.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 12:27 PM

Well found! (So to speak) ;>)

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 12:19 PM

NAVAL SONGS and BALLADS. 1908. C.H.Firth, editor has two songs.
here's the second. Again no tune is given.

According to the introduction this song "..narrates an incident in the suppression of piracy in the Eastern Seas, viz. the fight at MALLUDA BAY on August 19 1845"

THE BORNEO HEROES

Come, all you jolly sailors bold, the truth you soon shall know
Concerning of a glorious fight on the Isle of Borneo.
As we were cruising of the coast we heard the dreadful news
How the pirates they had massacred our merchants' crews

cho:
Huzza! huzza! huzza! huzza! with Captain Talbot boys,
We'll die or win the day!

The news it flew like lightning, from ship to ship it ran:
Admiral Cochrane gave the word, brave Talbot led the van;
And soon we manned all our boats and down the river flew.
Brave Talbot he commanded us with all the vessel's crew

When we came up to the boom we found it so secure
The cannon from their batteries on us poor lads did pour
But soon we cut our way through, like lions sprang on shore,
And soon five hundred pirates lay bleeding in their gore.

While they were bleeding in their gore we rushed into their town,
And there the produce of many a gallant ship we found
For plunder and distribution, boys, it was our whole intent
In one hour and twenty minutes the town to ashes sent.

When we returned to our Admiral and told him the glorious news
"Three cheers, my boys, for England, and all the gallant crews!"
So we'll drink to Admiral Cochrane and gallant Talbot too
The officers of the squadron and all the vessel's crew.

Now we have returned to England, to let our friends all know
How we destroyed the pirates on the coast of Borneo
For we left the flag of England by all nations to be seen
And for our reward we'll boldly go, boys, to our gracious Queen.

regards
Jake

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 12:19 PM

It looks as though the next to last verse should be verse number 2 for logical sequence. Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM

Brilliant Anglogeezer.

Thanks a lot.

Any chance of the other one ?

Chas

I knew this site would come up trumps as it always does.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 11:48 AM

NAVAL SONGS and BALLADS. 1908. C.H.Firth, editor has two songs.
here's the first. No tune is given.

A NEW SONG ON THE SUCCESSFUL ATTEMPT OF DESTROYING THE FRENCH FLEET IN BASQUE ROADS ON THE 11th APRIL 1809.

Come, all you valiant Britons of every degree,
Attend a few minutes and listen unto me.
Concerning our brave sailors that sailed on the main
With courage so bold fresh laurels they did gain.

cho :
Success to our sailors that sail on the sea
Who with Cochrane undaunted, wherever they're wanted,
They'll fight till they die or gain the victory.

It was in Basque Roads the fleet they did lay
At the sight of our shipping fill'd them with dismay
They skulk'd near the shore like cowardly curs
And dare not come out to face our brave British tars.

In the month of April, mind what I say
We resolv'd to try this fleet to destroy:
We gave them three cheers before we set to,
And galled them so sorely we made them cry "Morbleu!"

We poured in our shot and our rockets like hail
Till at length that their courage began for to fail
Some were taken and destroy'd and some got on shore,
The rest run up the harbour and would fight no more.

This fleet from Brest harbour some time ago got clear,
And our brave British heroes soon after them did steer
We chased them to Basque Roads without fear or doubt
Tho' so great was their number they dare not come out.

So now, Master Boneyparte, cease for to brag,
Till you build some more ships for to hoist your white flag
Which so often has been beat by the lords of the main
And if they dare face them they'll serve them so again.

regards
Jake

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: eddie1
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 02:43 AM

I wish - and not just for this reason - that Cyril Tawney was still with us.
He could have come up with a great song. Either deeply serious, hero-worshipping and patriotic or hilarious but whatever he went for, it would heve been a great song!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 01:05 AM

Les ~~ but a Surgeon [Warrant Officer] would not have worn an officer's cocked hat, would he: even if by courtesy admitted to the Ward Room? How about a Commander [quite high rank, equiv to army Lt-Colonel IIRC] who happened to be medically qualified? Pete never told me his ancestor's name, but had the hat distinctly labelled with the name "Surgeon-Commander Bellamy". AFAIK did not consider writing a song about his hat. Where did you find the muster-roll of Nelson's fleet: many congratulations on your research. On which ships did George Bellamy serve, do you know?

Whence, too, comes the Scott quote? & was he, as it appears from it, married to a Miss Cochrane who was related to the admiral?

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

Les from Hull Said.

Chileans have a song about their beloved Almirante Cochrane.

Yes they did it's in the book page. 229 and 230

Extracts from Pablo Neruda's, Cochrane de Chile (1970)

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 03:19 PM

Still no song eh? Cochrane featured in several cartoons featuring events in his life, particularily the Gilray cartoon about the Westminster election of 1807. Perhaps the Chileans have a song about their beloved Almirante Cochrane. Meanwhile here's what Walter Scott wrote about his missus.

Even now, as through the air the plaudits rung,
I marked the smiles that in her features came;
She caught the word that fell from every tongue,
And her eye brightened at her Cochrane's name;
And brighter yet became her bright eyes' blaze;
It was his country, and she felt the praise."

If someone fancied writing a Cochrane song, might I suggest basing it on the often-reproduced recruiting poster for the 'Flying' Pallas, turning it into a recuiting song.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 02:52 PM

A ship's surgeon was a warrant post, although considered 'of wardroom rank' and so messed with other officers, Lieutenants and Marine Officers who were commissioned officers. The other warrant officers 'of wardroom rank' were the Purser, the Master and the Chaplain (in the rare cases the ship had one). Surgeon of the Fleet was a position not a rank and the occupant would proably be medically qualified and obviously a gentleman. But still a warrant officer.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 02:26 PM

Lord Cochrane

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

Wouldn't the Surgeon of the Fleet be considered an officer rather than a warrant?

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

Michael - there was a George Bellamy who served as Surgeon from 1795 though not on the Trafalgar Muster Roll. He wouldn't be Surgeon-Commander though. In those days Surgeon was only a Warrant rank.

I wonder if Pete ever considered writing a song about the hat. That could have been some song.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:33 PM

OK. Cock rin we can make that rhyme too.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: BobKnight
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:27 AM

Maybe the English just couldn't pronounce his name. :)

That's "Cochrane," with a soft "ch" as in loch, and there is no emphasis on the "rane" bit which should sound more like "rin."

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:04 AM

Another of my pet theories has just gone down davy jones locker with this thread . I had been thinking that you would have had a better chance of getting a song written about you if your name happened to rhyme well rather than on account of any heroic deeds you might have performed 'gainst France or Spain. And yet Cochrane hits with all the right nautical rhymes : briny main ,lashing rain , timbers rent in twain , seamen plain etc etc.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 03:59 AM

Thank you Manitas.

Now lets get down to the "Nitty Gritty".

WHERE ARE THE SONGS ?

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 02:56 AM

I fail to see how his Scottish birth disbars him from being England's hero. Apart from the fact that England and Britain were used interchangeably at that time he was a hero TO England if not FROM England. There's a few people like that, Wellington, Florence Nightingale (named after her birthplace IIRC).

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:41 AM

A real drift: but may be of interest in this context & talking of ancestors. Peter Bellamy used to have a framed & mounted cocked-hat on the wall of his fascinatingly decorated home. It came down from his how-manyth great-whatever, Surgeon-Commander Bellamy, who had served under Nelson; though not, he thought, at Trafalgar.

There's glory for you ~~

♫ Bold Nelson's Praise... ♫

♥♫❤Michael❤♫♥

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: ollaimh
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:09 AM

byron's uncle "mad jack" byron was also a sea captain of interest who fought the daring style when given the chance.

he fought the last battle of the seven years war in canada in the baie de chaleur in new brunswick where he captured or sank the last french relief attempt for the city of quebec and environs.

a cat and mouse affair with the smaller fench ships seeking shelter in a bay where byrons ships of the line were loath to go, but the french were looking for a favourable opportunity to break out without facing the guns of the ships of the line. mad jack adopted a conservative stradegy(for him) and stood off to picket the bay. ultimately he caught the french in their break out attempt. the ruins of a few of the ships are still up there on the shore of the baie de chaleur.

an odd uncle(or maybe great uncle) for the famous poet.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 08:04 PM

'It is thought he was kept in post to prevent a member of the Royal Family (I did hear who, but I have forgotten now) succeeding him because of the rule of seniority in promotion, said member of the Royal family being incompetent. He died of cancer in service.'

It didn't work like that. Promotion was by seniority, but commands (like Commander-in-Chief Mediterranean) were decided by the Admiralty. He was a junior Vice-Admiral commanding in the Mediterranean in spite of there being officers senior to him. He was succeeded by Vice-Admiral Sir Charles Cotton, then Vice-Admiral Sir Edward Pellew, who was recalled from the East Indies command. Cotton didn't last long - he went back to take over the Channel Fleet from Gambier and died soon after. Nelson himself was only ever a Vice-Admiral.

Because promotion beyond the rank of Captain was only by seniority there were quite a few elderly Admirals around who weren't really suitable for sea service. It was possible to retire officers when they reached Flag Rank (appointed as Rear-Admiral without distinction of squadron - coloquially known as a 'Yellow Admiral'). This what happened to the chap who became King William 4th (Sailor Billy) who is the only Royal Family member I can think of to whom Tootler may be alluding, although he wasn't particularily incompetent, but lacked experience.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:07 PM

Ah but Fidjit, Cochrane was Scots, Collingwood was English.

The thread title says "English"

That's also what it's about.

I have no objection to praising an unsung Scots hero, after all I was born in Aberdeen, but we must get these things right.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:35 PM

There is also the song Bold Nelson's Praise ~~ "There was Sidney Smith and Duncan too, Lord Howe and all that glorious crew": let's hear it for Duncan & Howe likewise.

But also, again, I agree, for Cochrane, who doesn't make it there either.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:48 PM

Collingwood. Yes mentioned in the song "Pace Egging"

Cochrane. No mentions at all.

This is what it's about Tootler.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:44 PM

England's other hero. May I suggest Lord Collingwood. Born in Newcastle-on-Tyne, he was definitely English.

He was Nelson's no. 2 at Trafalgar and took command on Nelson's death, successfully ensuring that the British Fleet survived the gales after the battle. He is considered Nelson's equal in seamanship, though maybe not as daring.

After Trafalgar he was promoted to Commander in Chief of the Mediterranean fleet and proved himself an effective diplomat as well as a fine sailor. The Admiralty refused to let him retire when his health began to fail "on the ground that his country could not dispense with his services." It is thought he was kept in post to prevent a member of the Royal Family (I did hear who, but I have forgotten now) succeeding him because of the rule of seniority in promotion, said member of the Royal family being incompetent. He died of cancer in service.

He is celebrated round Tyneside with streets being named after him and there is large statue of him at Tynemouth. He seems relatively little known outside of his native Tyneside, in spite of his record with Nelson taking all the glory.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:36 PM

If you would like an exposition of Sir Sidney Smith's part in the loss of Toulon, read the Alan Lewrie adventures by Dewey Lambdin. {Much better writing than O'Brian}

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:25 PM

And to bring it back to music, there is a Sir Sidney Smith's march!

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM

Admiral Gambier, who commanded at Basque Roads, had the service nickname of 'Dismal Jimmy'.

Like many other military Lord Cochrane leaders didn't make things easy for others who did not share his opinions. Even though he was often right that didn't necessarily help. Although he was a popular hero he contrived to make planty of enemies. Unfortunately for him his enemies were more powerful than his friends.

Sir Sidney Smith was another great naval captain who contrived to make enemies, mainly when he was serving in the Swedish Navy and some of his opponents were fellow British officers serving the Russians. If you've enjoyed reading about Cochrane, you might try Sir Sidney Smith next.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

I suspect that the affair at the Basque Roads might have had an effect of his popularity with his superiors...and the public.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM

Terry, I reach out & pick up Concise Oxford, nearest dictionary to hand. Here is the entry exactly, omitting only stress marks which too much hassle. Note order of entry:

=======================
marquis, marquess, n. nobleman ranking between duke and (in the UK) earl or (elsewhere) count.
=======================

Know better, do you? Then I hope it keeps fine for you. Try any dictionary and you'll find the same. I admit most directories give the -ess form, the other being more old-fashioned. But both are acceptable, & if you think not, then I don't care either.

Anyhow, the Longleat geezer is one of the nation's most notable loonies! I shouldn't rely too much on him as an exemplar if I were you...

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 12:06 PM

Chas - you're correct. I've just checked the Royal Navy Museum's site and it confirms October 1860. My 'Harvey' (the one about South American history) says 1862 - I wonder what yours (Cochrane's bio)says?

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 11:42 AM

Mike - don't care, it's Marquess. Ask the bloke at Longleat. Your school friend did indeed call himself a Marquis but I suspect Burke's Peerage or Debrett didn't.

Also, Chas, I'm going by Harvey's book which is (I reckon) a more scholarly and therefore more reliable source than the Oxford Companion - but I could be wrong!

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 11:15 AM

Almost unbelievable that it was said he was "England's" hero. Almost.

Just me waving the flag of St George.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Pibydd
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 11:12 AM

Almost unbelievable that it was said he was "England's" hero. Almost.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 10:22 AM

Oxford book SEA SONGS AND BALLADS

That's three times might work this time

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 10:21 AM

Charley Noble Quote

Ooops forgot that bit.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 10:17 AM

For pedantic Terry McDonald

According to MY "The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea

Cochrane Thomas
10th Earl of Dundonald (1775 - 1860)
Therefore October 2010 = 150 years after his Death.


Charley Noble Quote
Oh I think I have that one didn't think to look there.

Thanks Charley.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:53 AM

Moreover, I happen to have been at college with the Marquis of Headfort {now alas deceased} who always insisted he was a Marquis, not a Marquess.

I don't usually drop names [fingers crossed!]: but I am like the animal in the proverb, who is "very vicious; when attacked he defends himself"...

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:48 AM

No, Terry: both given as acceptable alternatives in Chambers, COD, Hamlyn's ~~ the only 3 dictionaries I have within arm's reach of where I sit at my computer screen. But just you look up a few more & I will give you plenty of 9-5 that you will find the same!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:41 AM

Marquess, Mike, not Marquis.........

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:37 AM

A very intriguing character I'd agree, and I've enjoyed reading more about him through the years but I've never run across a ballad. Thee's nothing in Ashton's REAL SAILOR SONGS and nothing in DIBDIN'S SEA SONGS, nor in THE SAILOR'S GARLAND, nor in the Oxford book SEA SONGS AND BALLADS.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:22 AM

Nor, to be really pedantic, was he ever "Lord Thomas Cochrane", as in OP ~~ for that he would have had to be a younger son of a Duke or Marquis, which he wasn't. But one can induce a sort of trancelike state if one contemplates for too long the intricacies of the correct titles of various members of the British aristocracy, and their various offspring {2nd titles as courtesy titles, Lord ... ..., Lady ... ..., Honourables, &c}!

Drifting slightly, I have always thought it a terrible injustice that all the daughters of an Earl bear the style Lady Forename Surname [e.g. Lady Mary Smith]; but, while his eldest son bears his father's 2nd title by courtesy {like Lord Cochrane}, his younger sons are only Honourables. I have often thought that, if I were an Earl's younger son, I should hate my sisters!

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 08:54 AM

There are other books about Cochrane, including his own 'Autobiography of a Seaman', and biographies by David Cordingley and Donald Thomas. By the way he was never 'Mr' Cochrane. He was Lord Cochrane first (a courtesy title of his father) and after his father's death Earl of Dundonald.

He was also a very outspoken Radical MP, which didn't endear him to the establishment. He was a Admiral of four different nations, Greece, Brazil, Chile and the UK.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:22 AM

by Robert Harvey, not Richard

Yes so it is.
I liked my "Hornblower" books as a kid.

I think Mr Cochrane was a great guy. Should have thought that the ballad writers of the day would have produced something.

There is a song in the book in Portuguese.

Keep searching everyone.There must be something somewhere. Not knowingly attributed to him.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:41 AM

Chas - the book you cited at the beginning of this thread is by Robert Harvey, not Richard and he was also the author of the one I mentioned about South America's 'Liberators.'

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:26 AM

The Kingdom of Great Britain resulted from the political union of the kingdoms of England and Scotland with the Acts of Union 1707 on 1 May 1707 under Queen Anne. In 1801, under a new Act of Union, this kingdom merged with the Kingdom of Ireland to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. After the Irish War of Independence most of Ireland seceded from the Union, which then became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.<<<< Wiki
====

Lord Cochrane was later than either of these first two formulations, & therefore arguably British, and could be said to have fought for Great Britain, or even the United Kingdom in its original form.

Possibly the lack of song is due to his having subsequently fallen out of favour, dismissed the service and falsely imprisoned for fraud ~~ though later receiving a royal pardon. In the interim between release and pardon he fought for S American navies, receiving a Brazilian marquessate which, tho not strictly hereditary, appears still used by the Earls of Dundonald {the Wiki entry under Dundonald most informative}. I can't see, though, on second thoughts, that these misfortunes should have inhibited any ballad-making contemporaneous with his victories, and agree that the lack of songs about him is surprising.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:15 AM

He died in 1856.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:12 AM

Charles - he fought after the union of 1707, therefore he fought for Britain, not 'England'.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:06 AM

Have to see if I can't find this somewhere.

'Cochrane the Dauntless' by David Cordingly

It was 150 years since his Death in October 2010.

Thanks to you all for the info so far.

Chas

PS.
Should add he fought for Chile, Peru, Brazil and Greece too.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:57 AM

Terry McDonald

I know he was Scottish. I read the book.

He fought for England.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:49 AM

In a remote corner of my mind, there's a speculation that I may once have seen a ballad about Speedy, Cochrane's most famous command. Or is it just wishful thinking? Seems a very likely candidate, of course.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:45 AM

There's also Robert Harvey's 'Liberators - South America's Savage Wars of Freedom 1810-1830' published in 2000 which has a number of sections on Cochrane. He was Scottish, by the way, not English.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: gnomad
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:26 AM

No, I too know of no songs about Cochrane. Given the British fondness for flawed heroes and his thoroughly chequered career this is a bit surprising.

He was allegedly an inspiration behind both Horatio Hornblower and Capt. Jack Aubrey, so not ignored by 20th century authors.

I had never heard of the man until I read Sharpe's Devil (by Bernard Cornwell) and can only assume that Victorian sensibilities managed to largely airbrush him out of popular history. If you enjoy a bit of historical fiction the Cornwell book is worth a look. The notes fill in a bit of info on Cochrane's career, and indicate that there is a good biography "Cochrane" by Donald Thomas (Pub. Andre Deutsch, 1978) but I haven't seen a copy yet.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:10 AM

Earlier thread on Cochrane . Don't think we've found a song about him yet.

Subject: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:03 AM

like charity shops and recently was in Malmsbury, Wilthshire, England and came across this

Cochrane
The Life And Exploits of a Fighting Captain, by Richard Harvey £2.99

All about England's forgotten other Hero

Earl of Dundonald, Lord Thomas Cochrane

Fought many battles against the French and won. Freed Chile, Peru and Brazil form the Portuguese. Greece from the Turks. Etc.

Cant seem to find any songs about him.

Loads about Nelson. Nothing about this man.

What do you know ?

Chas