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BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding

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GUEST,Doc 08 Dec 10 - 01:29 PM
Herga Kitty 07 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM
The Sandman 06 Dec 10 - 04:46 PM
Fred McCormick 06 Dec 10 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 05 Dec 10 - 03:16 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 10 - 01:30 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 04 Dec 10 - 05:15 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 10 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,Doc John 04 Dec 10 - 04:29 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 10 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 04 Dec 10 - 04:26 AM
mandotim 04 Dec 10 - 03:41 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 10 - 02:24 AM
GUEST,John from Willesden 04 Dec 10 - 01:44 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 03 Dec 10 - 07:19 AM
GUEST,round&round 03 Dec 10 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 03 Dec 10 - 04:57 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 10 - 03:52 AM
Joe Offer 03 Dec 10 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,the farmer 03 Dec 10 - 02:37 AM
mandotim 03 Dec 10 - 12:50 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 05:41 PM
mandotim 02 Dec 10 - 04:38 PM
The Sandman 02 Dec 10 - 02:50 PM
The Sandman 02 Dec 10 - 02:02 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 01:51 PM
mandotim 02 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 12:22 PM
Fred McCormick 02 Dec 10 - 11:16 AM
mandotim 02 Dec 10 - 11:11 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 02 Dec 10 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 02 Dec 10 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 02 Dec 10 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 02 Dec 10 - 05:52 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 04:58 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 02 Dec 10 - 04:31 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 04:17 AM
mandotim 02 Dec 10 - 03:27 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 01:19 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 12:31 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 10 - 12:22 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Dec 10 - 11:42 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 Dec 10 - 09:25 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Dec 10 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,Alan whittle 01 Dec 10 - 11:37 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Dec 10 - 10:04 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Doc
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:29 PM

Thanks Fred, me too


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM

If it hadn't been for Pete Broadbent minding home and child we'd have been short of a dancer at Flowers of May bookings (I remember teaching Sarah to dance Hindley at short notice at St Neot's festival one year).

I haven't seen them since Pete became a bishop, but all best wishes to him and family!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 04:46 PM

thanks,Fred, I have signed it


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 03:03 PM

I've just found the following blog about the Bishop of Willesden, which ought to be of interest to those who are currently the guillotine blades.

Our man clearly has a lot more going for him than just outspoken criticism of royalty. And it sounds like he's more in touch with the original message of Jesus Christ than most members of the cloth.

You can read the original blog here http://wembleymatters.blogspot.com/2010/12/support-biking-bishop.html . You can also support an on-line campaign at the same place. He'll certainly get my support.


Support the Biking Bishop!

Pete Broadbent, Bishop of Willesden, was asked to withdraw from public ministry after the Daily Mail publicised his Facebook comments about the forthcoming royal marriage. His remarks were pretty forthright in his typical fashion and reflected what many people thought when they heard the news. My personal view is that he deserves support. As a self-proclaimed Christian Socialist and anti-racist he quickly backed and circulated the unity declaration put together by Bent and Harrow Unite Against Fascism opposing the EDL's attempts to divide our community. Now it is our turn to support him.

The bishop, who rides a bike around the area or uses public transport, as any good greenie does, is a breath of fresh air.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:16 PM

just what have they stopped this bishop from doing/ What does his suspension stop him from doing?

I'm a spiritually earthbound soul. i watch these guys on tv during worship holding out their hands as though the blessings of the Lord were being showered on them, and I'm intrigued - never ever experienced any feeling like that.

On the other hand, I get angry when people call England a secular society. the way we have a NHS and try to care for our most vulnerable, and don't practice capital punishment seems to me we have absorbed the Christian message better than most.

SO I don't feel entitled to say what a bishop should be doing. But on the other hand, I think he should at least have the same rights as the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:30 AM

"Gee, thanks, Daddy-O" ~~ West Side Story


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:15 AM

'Keep da change, kid!'
          Jimmy Cagney


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:34 AM

Back on track indeed, please, Doc John. But forgive me if I just take a few words here to thank Alan Whittle for his kind words of support and appreciation. Many thanks Al

And all best regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:29 AM

Let's get back on track for a bit! I was criticizing the hypocrisy of the Anglican Church which is quite happy to accept very unpleasant homophobia and misogeny in its ranks - behaviour which would be criminal elsewhere - while at the same time condemning a bishop who expresses republican views - which, fortunately for many of us - is not. The church's behavior to me is compounded by the fact that he was effectively suspended by his immediate boss, the Bishop of London, whose views on green issues are hypocritical to say the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:29 AM

Certainly, Tim. I utterly withdraw my unwarranted assumptions, and am happy you have accepted my apology ~~ though I don't quite see why you call it 'conditional'. I assure you it is entirely unconditional. Now please may we start again at Square 1!

Best regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:26 AM

With all due respect Mandotim, can I say i think you miss the point? I sincerely congratulate you for being useful and productive - my own life is neither at this point. MGM has confided to us (as his cyber friends) that his own life and circumstances are somewhat limited by age and infirmity.

This is a guy who has paid his dues many times over. At one time, he tells us he played piano in a night club for the late ruth ellis - how Anglo film noir is that. Presumably he could do 'lift' music if he wanted to. (Personally i have always dreamed of making into the lifts!)

now I wouldn't be caught dead singing an unaccompanied traditional song. And I had to leave Mudcat for a while - because I really do detest the direction the folk revival has taken. When I first noticed folk music in the 1950's - it was an exciting aristic movement like Rock and roll and Surrealism. It came at you through the radio - bands like the Kingston Trio and The Limeliters and Lonnie Donnegan really bit you on the bum - so different was it from the bland pop stuff.

To me, it lost its way when it lost its two geniuses (Dylan and donovan) at the start of the 70's and became a dreary curator and revitalizer of all the rubbish in Cecil sharp house. However , horses for courses. the traddy thing captured a lot of peoples imaginations and an awful lot of folk poured lifetimes of artistic effort into that vision. And artistic effort should always be respected.

What got me to leave and made things unbearable for me on Mudcat was a bloke called Folkiedave - who kept saying - name names - who are you criticising. And I am not criticising individuals - Ithink the whole movement took a wrong turn into a blind alley. But it doesn't mean I don't respect the people who have made that committment to trad music. I respect their effort. I like many of the people on a personal level.

You have criticised and disrespected a valued Mudcatter, and the music it has taken him a lifetime to create. His waspish, sharp as a tack witticisms are something that dozens of magazines have had to pay good money for, and now we get it for free. And we are privileged that its what he brings to the table.

Now, be nice to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 03:41 AM

Mthe GM; I accept your conditional apology. Your claim of a misunderstanding is, I'm sure, true from your point of view. Far from being churlish, I've been away from my computer and haven't had a chance to look at your comments until now. Perhaps another apology for your unwarranted assumptions above? You need to understand that some contributors here have useful and productive lives, and can't afford to spend all their time on social networking sites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:24 AM

Thank you, John. I am actually not called 'Gum'; you misread my Mudcat nickname, above: a shortening of my full name, Michael Grosvenor Myer. And the word Joe used was 'churlish', not 'childish'.

But thanks indeed for weighing in on my side. I clicked on when the thread came to the top again, hoping that Mandotim [not 'Mango'] might have been man enough {and GENTLEman enough, LoL} to have accepted my apology. But some hopes. As you say, this does seem to demonstrate that he is indeed the more 'churlish' of us. Perhaps he may yet have better recollections after all, apology-accepting-wise; but I am not holding my breath. He clearly is a churl rather than a gentleman, I fear.

You might be interested to know that I lived at 12 Helena Road, next to Gladstone Park, for the first 3 years of my life, after which we moved to Hampstead; but I have not, to my recollection, been back to Willesden since, though a 28 bus I used to catch in my teens from Golders Green to visit family in Maida Vale went past Willesden Green Station.

Best regards and thanks again for your support,

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,John from Willesden
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 01:44 AM

I am new to the Mudcat Cafe, I found it when I inherited a flute recently and was googling to try and find out something which would teach me to play it. Then I got interested in this one as I live in Willesden and RR Mr Broadbent is our "suffragan". It is an interesting sequence, I think they are called threads is that right, and I have quite enjoyed this barney that has been going on between Mr Mango and Mr Gum I think they are called though it hasnt got much to do with the bishop. As I see it Gum says Mango got the wrong end of some stick and apologised and Mango still kept on quareling so Gum quareled back again, and then Mr Offer who seems to have some sort of Mudcat athority said they were being childish, so Gum apologised again but Mango hasnt said anything. So I suppose this shows Mango is the most childish one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 07:19 AM

Only on weekends


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,round&round
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:25 AM

With my hips kind of swivelly and swervy.
I adore being dressed in something frilly

That's you is it then Mr A Whittle lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:57 AM

'You both are sounding a bit churlish....'

To quote rogers and hammerstein in the Flower Drum Song

'I enjoy being a churl!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:52 AM

Dear Joe: Indeed. Sorry. I had not intended to return to this thread as I said above: but someone told me about your polite note, so I thought it would be civil to respond to it.

I offered an unconditional apology to Mr Mandotim yesterday at 01·51 pm for having clumsily used a throwaway adjective intended to apply to a sesquipedalian statement, but which he had misunderstood as intended to apply to him personally, which could not have been further from my intention. He did not see fit to accept this apology, but continued contentiously; and I admit that I, probably foolishly, rose to this challenge.

I now repeat this apology; I assure him yet again I intended no personal attack, and that I have every respect for his academic position and achievements ~~ as I have for all academic activity. (My dead darling first wife was also an academic with a considerable academic publishing record.)

I hope Tim will now see fit to accept my apology in the spirit I intend, and leave this pointless wrangling, which I am finding somewhat wearing. I must say I think it would be, to adopt your happy locution, somewhat 'churlish' of him not to do so.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 02:47 AM

Dear Mr. Mandotim and Mr. MtheGM:

Please attempt to maintain an air of civility. You both are sounding a bit churlish....
Thank you.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,the farmer
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 02:37 AM

This thred ha s got high-jackd by 2 men fihting out a sort of privte war about critics or somethig. Couldnt we all just get back to the bishop and the royal wedding wich is what we are3 suppose to be talking about isnt it


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: mandotim
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:50 AM

'You expect the recipients of your vitriol to accept it with good grace. Let's see if you can do the same.'
I'll take that as a 'no', then...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:41 PM

It was the name I called boring, Mandotim [whoever you may be: ashamed of our real name, are we?] ~~ not you. Your reply is not gracious. It is the response, not of a bore, but of a boor. Anyone can be a critic, can they? Then let's see you get taken on as one by any reputable publication, big gob. You might not care for my singing; your privilege: but when you have a body of published critical, feature or scholarly work on folk & theatre & literature to compare with mine, in publications comparable to The Times, The Guardian, Folk Review, Plays & Players, The Teacher, The Republic {Indiana}, The Glasgow Herald, English Dance & Song, Cambridgeshire Life, Early Modern Literary Studies, The Cambridge Guide to Literature in English, The Continuum Encyclopedia of British Literature, The Times Higher Educational Supplement, The Irish Press, Cambridge Review, TES, Cambridge Insider, Varsity, Cambridge Evening News, Notes & Queries {Oxford UP}, Record Mirror, Melody Maker, The World of English {Beijing}, Folk Music Journal {EFDSS}, Acoustic Music, Folk Roots, Folk Music In School {Cambridge UP}, Folk News, CAM, The Oldie, Private Eye ... then you might just about be entitled to pass comment on my writerly bona fides. Till then, button your stupid lip, you conceited little jackanapes.

Any response you endeavour to make to this will be labour in vain. I shall not open this thread again. Do not try to contact me elsewhere; any PM from you will be deleted unread; as will any email if you take the trouble to follow up any of my links. Or any letter to my home address, which you could easily find as I make no attempt to hide my identity, as do you, behind a fatuous cognomen.

You can sing & play, you say ... well then, my little man, go away and play with yourself.

MGM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: mandotim
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 04:38 PM

Michael; quote; 'instead of I can't even remember your ballsachingly boring academic's name for the same phenomenon'. Remember? Like most critics, you seem to have a problem accepting responsibility for what you say.
It's not that I don't like your singing and playing; it's just not very good. It's out of tune, lacks rhythm and dynamics, and is frankly boring. I don't mind bad music generally, as long as it has some soul, some passion. Yours has neither, and isn't technically good enough to be played in elevators either. See? Anyone can be a critic, you don't actually have to be able to do anything constructive at all! (Incidentally; this is not abuse. It's criticism. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about your attempts at music. You expect the recipients of your vitriol to accept it with good grace. Let's see if you can do the same.)
I told you my links are on Mudcat; if you want to find them and apply your fine critical faculties to them, then put some work in. (Although I still think you should spend less time on here and more time learning to play and sing.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 02:50 PM

go to work on an egg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 02:02 PM

Of course the week after the election Major got up in parliament and said, well I didn't have plans to raise tax at that point. but now I have.
and all the time he was riding side saddle with Edwina Currie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM

I feel I owe it to myself, mind, Tim, to add that I am sorry you don't like my singing; but yours is not the only opinion in the world. Two of my videos have been linked on Cat threads, by Crow Sister {'Fanny Blair'} & by Brian Peters [who added 'Thank you Mike' ~ 'Banks of Green Willow']; neither of whom, I would add, is known personally to me. I have, too, a CV of folk-club residency, cassette & CD making by reputable label {Brewhouse, who also do Dick Miles/GSS' records}, plenty of scene gigs, &c. So sorry if you don't care for it. Still, can't, as they say, win 'em all.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:51 PM

···It's not that easy becoming a senior, much published academic either; yet you saw fit to ridicule me for that. ....

No I didn't, Tim. I wouldn't dream of such a thing. I have every respect for the academic world. I fear you have genuinely misunderstood something I said & we have got at cross-purposes. Please quote back to me what I said that gave you this impression of ridicule, which I assure you was entirely unintentional: & I genuinely, even before that, unconditionally apologise and withdraw it, whatever it was. It certainly doesn't represent my opinions.

I am afraid I have no idea who you are. My name is not concealed. My nickname is simply a form of my name, with no disguise, & anyone who follows link to my u-tube gets my name. But who you are I have no idea, nor what is your academic post ~~ nor how to find your link on mudcat, either, for that matter. So please come out into the open as to who you are, please. All I have to go on is your Catter nickname. PM me if you don't want to put it on the thread.

Again, I regret inexpressibly if I have appeared in any way to belittle your academic or professional achievements, for which I have nothing but respect & admiration. I must say I wondered why you suddenly turned so abusive: again, there is genuinely some misunderstanding.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: mandotim
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM

Michael, have a look for the link, it's here on Mudcat. Why should the performer do the critic's work for them?
On the subject of becoming a critic; it's not that easy becoming a senior, much published academic either; yet you saw fit to ridicule me for that. Stings when you get it back, doesn't it? I don't see critics as failed anything; I see them as parasites on the artistic community, and at that they are generally successful. Most feel qualified to criticise that which they are unable to do, and know little or nothing about. Judging by your musical efforts, I find it very difficult to believe your status as a music critic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:22 PM

Oh, dear ~~ weary, routine, reflex denunciation of the critic: o-ho-hum. Probably whistling down the wind in the face of such predictable idiocy, but just about worth recalling here what I wrote on an earlier thread on 'music critics; do we need them?'

···"I happen to have been a critic, folk [records books concerts festivals columns interviews features obits] and theatre, for many years, for Times, Guardian, Folk Review &c &c; and so would obviously not appear objective. But there is one point whose hash needs settling by someone within the trade: and that is the idea that a critic tends to be nothing but a 'failed whatever-it-may-be' — as if one had an ill-received gig, and said to oneself, 'darn it then, if they don't like me I'll go and be a critic & that'll show 'em!'; whereupon one walks into the office of a national paper & says, 'Hi, I've come to be your folk critic'.
Believe me, it just ain't that easy to convince an Arts or Literary Editor that you are the man he wants for the job, build up connections, gain membership of NUJ or Inst of Journalists... If you don't believe me, just try setting up as a critic for a reputable journal or programme, just like that, and see where it gets you. Of course, there are blogs and chatrooms and all sorts of outlets to express one's opinions, just as there were always newsletters; but that's not quite the same, is it? Becoming an actual, recognised·in·the·fields of both press & of medium·reviewed, Critic·with·a·cap·C isn't quite as simple as that."

Not going to convince these two who appear to have had a cerebrectomy, despite one of the pair's remarkable recollection of my nearly 40-years-ago published work. But just thought it worth repeating on a thread with, as one of them points out, has 'critic' in the title.

Which reminds me: when is the one I requested to do so going to let me have that link so that I can give the same appraisal to his work that he gave to mine? ··· which, incidentally, was so delicately phrased that it got deleted by Joe·or·clone before I even had a chance to respond. But that wasn't 'criticism', of course: perish the thought!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:16 AM

Mandotim. I haven't come across that one before, but I do remember that Beethoven once called a critic a double barrelled arsehole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: mandotim
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:11 AM

Re Critics in general (part of the subject of the thread, in case we'd all forgotten;
"It is impossible to think of a man of any actual force and originality, universally recognized as having those qualities, who spent his whole life appraising and describing the work of other men.

Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
My thanks to a good friend for reminding me of the quote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM

Some Joe or clone seems to have deleted the posts that last one of mine was replying to before I could even get it online. Never mind ~~ leave mine there, please. They'll know what I mean even if no-one else does.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:47 AM

Wow, Fred. Thank you. That must be the greatest compliment I have ever received.   That play was The Splendour and Death of Joaquin Murieta by Pablo Neruda, performed in the theatre of Churchill College, Cambridge. My review appeared in The Guardian of 4 March 1974.

36½ years, I make that. You have remembered a throwaway line from a review I wrote 36½ (count them: thirty-six-and-a-half) years ago.

You might not like my singing ~~ ouch, yaroo, you rotters! now I won't sleep all night! ~~ but by hell you remember what I write. {Law of Unintended Consequences, eh Tim? & no Chaos Theory about it.}

And I hope you both admire my filing system.

And I hope it keeps fine for you...

Best regards to you both

♥♫❤Michael❤♫♥

PS You say you can play & sing, Tim. Can I have a YouTube link or whatever, please to judge for myself. You had mine


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 07:31 AM

It certainly wasn't the culture of those who whinge in lieu of envy.

Born in England.
Born in Ireland.

Born with a system of government where you can have all you want and complain about it or work hard and get a bit more. If somebody has something you don't, have you ever thought that they earned it? I never apologised for being comparatively poor, so be buggered to apologising for getting on since.

The culture that entranced me is that of opportunity for those who can and a landing pad for those who can't. Other than the world cup, (and I have at least heard of The Turner prize and the forthcoming royal wedding,) I would need google to discuss the other things you mention. The only Anne Widecombe I have heard of is the ex Tory politician.

Does culture mean watching the telly then? I hadn't realised! Too busy quaffing my best verve and getting my ivory tower repointed to worry about chippy buggers who go through their sorry lives feeling sorry for themselves, blaming anybody who isn't in their position.

Oh, and whilst we are on the subject of mis spelling, Irelad????   (Once you start being pedantic you can't stop, so also, God has a capital G, even for we irreligious heathens.) You can't misspell whiskey or whisky. The difference is, many years ago, a marketing decision. (Oh, and Irish tends to be smoother in general. I find Bushmills doesn't burn as badly going down as some more peaty ones from geographically very close by.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:46 AM

' just by being born in The Western world, you have won the lottery.'

Oh absolutely. And born in England is the golden ticket. Just imagine if my grandparents had stayed in Irelad - I'd be mispelling whisky - putting an 'e' in it, dancing jigs, god knows ....

but meritocrarcy......I reckon you've been clog dancing Willie and someone stamped on your head.

I wonder which aspect of our culture has you so entranced....celebrities in the jungle, Ann Widecombe's tango, the recipients of the Turner Prize, the jeremy Kyle Show, England's performance in the World Cup, the news that Peter Andre and Katie are still friends....the Royal Wedding...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:19 AM

Never said there had been a redistribution of wealth.

Just that since 1948, we have been a socialist society, each contributing for the whole. Our taxes have been spent on social infrastructure, healthcare has been universal and there is the will, even if not always executed properly, to protect the more vulnerable in society.

Bugger all to do with politics of envy, just socialism working, financed by capitalism. In other words, it works. It could work better, and interfering in health and social care these days, I do get angry that people have been failed.

But that isn't because hard work and enterprise doesn't work. Far from it. It funds what we have. We have something many people forget...

Meritocracy.

Oh and constitutional monarchy, which, in case anybody needs educating, is NOT monarchy.

treasure it and remember that just by being born in The Western world, you have won the lottery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:52 AM

Ah yes, the cultural revolution...the great leap forward. I was very enamoured of a Maoist girl who ran the college magazine. I only really came to terms with our irreconcilable differences after I'd written this song about her:-

http://www.myspace.com/folksingerbigal/music/songs/Trish-34489993

have no fear I have no desire to better you in argument, Mike. I have admired your work and wit for years, and I know only too well you are more sure footed in debate and use of language than I could ever aspire to be.

As for Steamin willie's contention that the socialist dream has been realised and fair distribution of wealth is with us now - you hit him your piano and I'll grab his wallet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 04:58 AM

"I've told you before, there is no such Law"

forsooth. Bloody cheek!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM

Another point, Tim: philological or perhaps semantic.

There is no limit to the number of terms one is permitted by law to use for any referent. If I choose to call something a Law of Unforeseen Consequences, whose referent you perfectly well comprehend, instead of I can't even remember your ballsachingly boring academic's name for the same phenomenon, that doesn't discount its phenomenal existence. The spectacle of a man of your intelligence thinking he has absolutely indisputably knock-down put my argument right out of court because I use a universally accepted & perfectly apprehensible term for something for which you have a personal preference for another name, worries me much more than any thought of the shame and disgrace that would beset me if I happened to meet the Queen, & bowed my head slightly as that is the recognised courtesy. {I have, actually, several times met Prince Edward, back in the days I was Cambridge theatre critic for a national paper and he was a student actor. I didn't bow to him ~~nor he to me: but I thought at moments that he might be going to!}


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 04:31 AM

I was taking interest in the latest banter till I read the bit about abolishing Monarchy being akin to abolishing slavery. Then my eyes started getting heavy.

Oh, and getting chippy about some notion that royalty reckon they are better than everybody else. Really? Strange that interviews I have read and seen seem to have the common theme about the responsibility rather than the fun?

Sorry but the old "Why can't I have what others have got?" and "in a fair society I would have it all without having to work for it" crap keeps rearing its head. I am trying to remain objective here, but the anti monarchy debate seems to be mingled with the utopian workers' revolution and they are different ideas entirely.

One is a fair subject for debate, the other is romantic tosh that is hard to imagine, especially as the vast majority of the country's voters are more concerned about mortgage interest rates, savings interest rates, whether their telly can get 1080i and whether it is ecologically sound to buy South American fresh asparagus at Tescos.

The dream of Kier Hardy has been realised as much as it ever can. Wake up and realise it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 04:17 AM

Tim: So was Darkness At Noon ~~ so what?

Nobody is talking academically Well, yes, actually you are. You are an academic; I happen to be a journo. Call it Chaos Theory [academic name] or Law of Unf Cons [journo-speak] ~~ but just don't let it bite you in the bum! & remember the indispensable advice of Hilaire Belloc: "And always keep a hold of Nurse, For fear of finding something worse!"

····Watching adults bow and curtsey (both physically and metaphorically) before a bunch of useless, overprivileged, undereducated and morally bankrupt Royals; doesn't that make you a little uneasy about how our society works?····

Nope.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: mandotim
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 03:27 AM

Michael; a couple of small points from an academic perspective; I've told you before, there is no such Law as 'the Law of Unforeseen Consequences', it's just lazy journo-speak. One of my research areas is non-linear complexity theory; 'chaos theory' in the same lazy style. Politics is run on the flawed principle that a given action will produce a given result. The world outside politics knows that this is not so, and therefore expects more and different results.
There is evidence from other societies that our form of democracy may not be ideal, but we stick with it; why? This flawed thinking extends into why we have a monarchy. Looked at objectively, the monarchy is the vestigial remains of a totalitarian system of government which was decisively rejected by revolution and civil war. It serves no political, economic or governmental purpose, but retains enormous, unaccountable and largely malign influence over the social mores of our country. It also costs a fortune, money which could be better spent. There are many successful democracies around the world which manage perfectly well without a monarch, and others who have a monarch with a much reduced constitutional standing. The problem in this country is the bowing and scraping that is expected (even demanded) by 'protocol', which is another name for 'making sure the plebs know their place'. Watching adults bow and curtsey (both physically and metaphorically) before a bunch of useless, overprivileged, undereducated and morally bankrupt Royals; doesn't that make you a little uneasy about how our society works?
One last point; Tale of Two Cities isn't a great academic reference; last time I was in the library, it was under 'fiction'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:19 AM

& don't forget Citizen executioner's guillotine blade landing on all those other Citizens' necks.

Have you read 'A Tale Of Two Cities'?

∴Liberté Egalité Fraternité = hedzoff in La Place de la Concorde; ∴The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics = bullets in the head in the Lubianka; ∴The People's Republic of China = the Cultural Revolution & Tienanmen Square.

EQUAL societies, the lot of them...

♥Michael♥


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:31 AM

... and I forgot to mention that his students paraded him thru the streets first, in a dunce's cap & without his trousers.

Because it was a People's Republic, dontcha know!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:22 AM

& moreover, Al, as for 'embodiment of all our inequalities'; well, they are expensive, but then, so is the maintenance of any presidency; & they are 'constitutional', even if some of them think too much of themselves, like that late unlamented moocow Margaret ~ tho not I should say Anne, for example, or Zara, both of whom have achievements which they could only have gained by their own work & talent who-so-ever they had been.

But 'inequalities', now. How successful have attempts to create 'equal' societies been? "Come, Comrade" says the guard opening the cell door in the Lubianka in 1936. "Coming, Comrade" comes the reply. &, boom, in goes the bullet, from 'Comrade' #2's pistol into the back of 'Comrade' #1's head...

Have you read 'Darkness at Noon'?

A dear friend of mine called Wu Ningkun was persuaded to return from his fine academic post at the Univ of Chicago's English faculty to "help with building our Socialist paradise". Then, with the approval & encouragement of the equality-adoring Chairman Mao, his own students denounced him to the Cultural Revolution & he spent the next 20 years of his life in prison...

Have you heard of Tienenman Square?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 11:42 PM

..."step in the right direction", you say, Al. Trouble is, no one can ever be quite sure which direction a step is going to take. Even the abolition of slavery carried some disagreeable FX for the freed, as we all know ~~ disoriented ex-slaves turned out on their own resources; KKK; persistence of Southern attitudes up to & beyond Luther King & Rosa Parkes, leading to lynch-law &c. I am not saying slavery shouldn't have been abolished: it should never have existed in the first place; so when it came to 1865, they could only start from where they were. & not all the effects were benign. One must always allow for the law of Unforeseen Consequences, mustn't one? & do you really think royalty the same sort of abuse as slavery which should never have existed? Oh, come now... The ones who want abolishing are the ones living in tax havens with 95%, or whatever it is, of the country's wealth, who I agree with you really are an abuse. Tho it occurs to me to wonder who, in your ideal society, is going to be able to buy the Turner collection, all at once or piece by piece, when we do sell it!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 09:25 PM

I think we all enjoy the pageantry and all that showbiz side of it. I had a mate who worked for the ministry of defence and he used to buy all the plastic helmets that look like burnished steel. Fair does - they put on a decent show.

You ask what i would replace it with. And I felt a bit like Neil Kinnock in 1992 when Bill Naughtie had him squirming - how are YOU going to pay for these programmes Mr Kinnock. We know the tories have NO plans to raise tax.

Of course the week after the election Major got up in parliament and said, well I didn't have plans to raise tax at that point. but now I have.

Obviously I don't know what would replace royalty. i just know - like the abolition of slavery - it'll be a step in the right direction. Its the physical embodiment of all our inequalities. Kinnock knew whatever he spent tax money on, the poor would get more of it than if the tories had their kicking boots on.

similarly I feel that we shouldn't be grabbing money from the poor and defenceless - we should be getting it off the people who have 95% of the country's wealth. and flog the Turner Colection and rent out Balmoral, before you start robbing the poor.

as you say - no one gives a bugger what we think - so it matters not a jot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 11:49 AM

Well OK right back to you, Al. But tell me [who, I repeat, doesn't care that much one way or the other, except that I quite enjoy the traditional pageantry on telly] ~~ what alternative do you suggest? ~~ starting from here, remember, because it's the only place you can start... & taking note also of the majority will for their maintenance, toffee-nosed aristos or no, which I really do believe to be the case, & none of you has come back with a convincing counter-argument or statistic to dispute or disprove; & which as democrats you have no biznis to disregard.

Best

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 11:37 AM

Well allright Mike, but surely to god you recognise they are aristocrats - brought up to believe in their innate superiority. And whatever the public persona - that's what they believe. their ancestor went to the scaffold to uphold that principle.

Do you know the old CS Lewis saw - I can believe the impossible, but not the improbable. Tell me that Gladstone was haunted by Parnell's ghost on the eve of his death, and I believe you. Tell me that Gladstone met Queen Victoria and slapped her on the back and offered her a cigar, and I know you are lying.

I suspect CSL was making a more serious point, but it says something that the high water point of improbability is set the reverential code of behaviour that we accord this lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bishop Suspended - critic of royal wedding
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 10:04 AM

"Bloody 'ell, MtheGM, haven't you anything better to do with your time?", asks theleveller<<<

Bit of a nerve, eh wot, theleveller? What biz of yours how I choose, in my 79th year, well retired & not all that mobile, to spend my time? & I can't anyhow see I have contribd more to this thread than you or several others.

I was disputing as to whether the majority wish the royal institution [as to which, let me say again, I am personally more or less indifferent] to continue or to be abolished; which latter many here would appear to favour, and just will not be told that they are in a small minority: & I extrapolated from that that anyone with any pretension to believing in democracy should respect this vastly in-excess-of-their-own majority view. My surveys were all on that topic. I take your point that such polls have their shortcomings; but such as they are, I put them to you and challenged you to find one with contradictory results. Your MEN survey, as to who should pay for the wedding, is not on the same topic at all, & its results were not the least surprising. As it has been publicly stated that the families of the bride & groom will pay for the wedding, that is a dead issue. Security is another matter: as I have pointed out, all sorts of necessary security has to be paid for from the public purse. I myself had much rather that less of my taxes had gone on policing those ill-behaved fire-extinguisher-flinging children last week; but that's the sort of thing the police are for, so the costs must be met ~~ just as must those for the education of your children, but not mine because I have none. Now don't wilfully misunderstand, please, & come back at me with an accusation of grudging it: I don't; I fully appreciate all our dependence on an educated next generation. I am simply pointing out the facts of the matter, but you don't always strike me as all that much on·the·ball when it comes to grasping just what is the point at issue.

Hope your snow-clearing activities have cleared your mind somewhat.

Regards

~Michael~


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