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BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations

Bev and Jerry 04 Dec 10 - 11:30 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Dec 10 - 12:03 AM
Slag 05 Dec 10 - 12:46 AM
Skivee 05 Dec 10 - 01:51 AM
Bev and Jerry 05 Dec 10 - 01:53 AM
Joe Offer 05 Dec 10 - 02:05 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 10 - 02:10 AM
Ebbie 05 Dec 10 - 03:22 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Dec 10 - 03:28 AM
Georgiansilver 05 Dec 10 - 03:46 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 10 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Dec 10 - 04:15 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 10 - 04:28 AM
John MacKenzie 05 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM
Will Fly 05 Dec 10 - 04:57 AM
Will Fly 05 Dec 10 - 04:58 AM
John MacKenzie 05 Dec 10 - 05:12 AM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 10 - 05:25 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Dec 10 - 05:43 AM
Will Fly 05 Dec 10 - 05:54 AM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 10 - 06:20 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 10 - 06:38 AM
Bobert 05 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM
Ed T 05 Dec 10 - 09:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Dec 10 - 09:58 AM
wysiwyg 05 Dec 10 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM
Jeri 05 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Dec 10 - 11:35 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 10 - 11:55 AM
josepp 05 Dec 10 - 12:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Dec 10 - 12:58 PM
josepp 05 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM
Georgiansilver 05 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM
josepp 05 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Dec 10 - 01:45 PM
bubblyrat 05 Dec 10 - 01:50 PM
Big Phil 05 Dec 10 - 01:51 PM
josepp 05 Dec 10 - 02:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Dec 10 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 10 - 03:15 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 10 - 03:48 PM
Bev and Jerry 05 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Dec 10 - 04:51 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 10 - 04:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Dec 10 - 05:01 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 Dec 10 - 05:19 PM

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Subject: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 11:30 PM

We are writing an article about World War II and have included some eye witness quotations which describe certain events. Some of them contain the word "Jap". We know this is an offensive racial slur and was considered offensive at the time. Nevertheless, it was in common usage in America at the time and one of our references is a newspaper article that uses the word "Jap" in the headline.

So, here's the question: How should this word be presented in a text format? Should it read "Jap[anese]? Should there be a footnote explaining the term? Can anyone refer us to a style manual that covers this dilemma?

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 12:03 AM

"We know this is an offensive racial slur"

I appreciate your good intent and scholastic dilemma.

It's all to do with "doing the PC dance". Which ever way you jump, you'll probably be criticized. I'd suggest a 'disclaimer' that sets out your dilemma and then use the historically correct (unbowdlerized) term.

Here in Australia, some have also been trying to stamp out the use of the term 'Jap Pumpkin'- a certain particular species of high quality pumpkin that was originally grown in Australia by the Japanese Market Gardeners. Incidentally, they used to grow food in the Brisbane suburb of Newmarket, where my Grandfather and dad grew up. The term referring to the pumpkin was never a racial slur in Australia (just descriptive - even seeds and seedlings were sold with that name), but now the PC mad clan are trying claim it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Slag
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 12:46 AM

How aabout a note or line in the Preface which states all quotations are verbatim and the authors do not necessarily agree nor condone any slur which may have been socially acceptable at that point in history, or words to that effect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Skivee
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:51 AM

I agree with Slag. That's much better than prettifying up the language of of our forebears.
Besides, the whole "Being In The Process Of Fighting Against World Domination By The Axis" probably just barely edges out "Being PC For The Sensitivities Of Future Wankers"in the importance hopper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:53 AM

Slag:

We like that very much and maybe we'll do it that way. It just seems that this can't be the first time this problem has come up and there should be some authoritative source that we can consult to see what the standard is. But, we can't find any.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 02:05 AM

I'd agree with Slag's comments, but I think the word should be used in quotes whenever it's used - if it's within a statement enclosed in quotation marks, it should be clear to most people that it's not your words. If you wanted to make that even more clear, you could include 'Jap' in single quotes within your quotation.
To say Jap[anese] seems to be a bit insulting to the intelligence of the reader. The term "Jap" seemed to be common speech through the 1960s. I don't think I ever met a Japanese person in Michigan or Wisconsin, but that changed when I moved to California in 1971.
Hope to see you at the end of the month, Bev and Jerry.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 02:10 AM

One should always keep in mind the Duke of Wellington's response to the courtesan Harriette Wilson. While she was writing her memoirs in the 1820s after a rackety life in the demi-monde, she wrote to all her former lovers offering to leave them out on payment of an appropriate sweetener ~~

"Publish and be damned," was Wellington's riposte. A useful deadwood-cutting watchword in many situations IMO.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:22 AM

I don't think I'd put the word or phrase in quotes; I'd be more likely to use (sic), I think.

One thought does occur to me: Where does one draw the line? Charged as PC or not, I just could not relate a story or sing a song about niggers. It hurts to even write the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:28 AM

Ebbie just beat me to the traditional (sic) method. ATM, I can't remember what the Latin means...

here it is
Sic is a Latin word that means "thus" or, in writing, "it was thus in the source material".


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:46 AM

I am not so sure that the word Jap was used as a racial slur at the time... it was just a shortened name as is Brit for British... however they were referred to as 'Nips' which was with reference to them being sons of Nippon.. and this was used as an offensive slur.
We 'Brits' referred to the Americans as Yanks during the war but it was not an offensive offering nor was 'Frog' or 'eyetie' ...... I guess I feel some sadness that out society is becoming too steeped in modern 'awareness' to see a nickname or shortened name as lighthearted.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:46 AM

Ebbie: But how then do you read Huckleberry Finn, one of the world's greatest novels? Or Joseph Conrad's The Nigger Of The 'Narcissus'? When things were different, they were different, as we all know.

I had a correspondence a few years ago

No, on second thoughts I think I will start a new thread on this...

Best

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 04:15 AM

"(sic)" is used if otherwise a printing or spelling error could be assumed. This is not the case here. To mark an expression as slang (or otherwise nonstandard), italics are the thing to do.

Quotations should be presented as closely to their original as possible. Explanations in brackets are sometimes useful, but will never decrease the offensiveness. Use asterisks or dots if you absoulutely must, and if you trust the reader to know what is meant:
"F*** the J**s!" the Seargeant shouted [asterisks by ed.].
Names are often offensive by convention only. Conversely, the nicest euphemisms, such as "Aborigine", will wear off if the underlying conflicts are not resolved.

Japanese are not a race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 04:28 AM

But there is a danger of ambiguity with *s. I initially read Grishka's 'sergeant' as denouncing the Jews [see my new thread on Dict Definitions], & only on reflection, within context of this thread, realised she [or 'he'] meant the Japanese.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream
media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible
to pick up a turd by the clean end."


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 04:57 AM

I think it's perfectly proper to preface a written article with a statement of intent or a foreword which states clearly that quotations from a particular period are verbatim, as found, and that no slut of any kind is intended. The complete quotations can be enclosed in quote marks or, if typeset, can be in smaller type, paragraphed separately and indented to make it clear that their quotations. Numbered sources for each quotation make it even clearer.

sic is inappropriate here - it refers to something like a wrong spelling. For example: "Prazident [sic] Lincoln was present at the time". In this context, sic makes it clear that the mis-spelling of the word President is not by the author, and is being written as originally spelled by the person responsible for the quote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 04:58 AM

"no slut [sic] of any kind is intended"... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:12 AM

oh puck (sic)


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:25 AM

I think Slag has the right idea about this.

Racial (or national) prejudice seems to have been the rule, not the exception, during the WWII period (and also in previous wars).

Germans were routinely referred to as "the Hun" in English-speaking nations during WWI...a really disgusting term to use for Germans, in my opinion, but people seem to have taken it for granted at the time.

Japanese were referred to as "Japs" or "Nips", with similar dehumanizing intentions. (The extreme prejudice and hatred I saw commonly STILL directed at WWII Japanese during my youth in North America during the postwar period (in the 50s and early to mid-60s) surpassed in its viciousness any other form of prejudice I've ever directly witnessed. It was almost an unbelievable level of race hatred and gross caricature of another nation. Have a look at some old WWII propaganda cartoons that the American film industry did against Japanese in the 40s. They're on Youtube. You'll see what I mean.)

Italians have been referred to as "Wops" or "Eyeties" and portrayed as cowards (which they were not).

None of this is nice, to say the least, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese, Germans, and Italians sometimes used similarly derogatory terms for the people of nations they were fighting against. It's typical of the ugliness that stems from wartime propaganda, and it's designed to make young soldiers go out and kill the enemy with "extreme prejudice" and no hesitation whatsoever. You're supposed to forget that they are human too.

As for the term "nigger", it has become pretty much the ultimate politically uncorrect term in modern times, but when Mark Twain was writing his wonderful books it was the standard word in the vernacular for most Americans, particularly rural Americans...and both black and white Americans...used when they were speaking of a black person. So Twain had it in his books, naturally, because it was an ordinary term at the time.

That has changed.

It's a disservice to the young people of today to censor the past by changing words that were written or spoken in the past. If we do censor all that stuff, they won't even have any real understanding OF the past, and we will be deliberately making them ignorant in order to supposedly "protect" them from something. That doesn't even make any sense.

I cringe inside when I read a passage about World War I and hear Germans being referred to as "Huns" or "the Hun", because I like Germans and I respect them as a nation. It makes me sick to hear that propaganda term. Nevertheless, I do not want it expunged from every quoted historical account and reminiscence of that time, because I want to know exactly what happened back then so that I can work against the same sort of thing happening now...but being inflicted on someone else entirely. I do not want to be protected by being kept ignorant of the cultural habits of the past.

And the same goes for the words "nigger", "Jap", etc...in the context of a quoted past or an old book from a previous era.

How can we oppose present evils effectively if we are afraid to even look at similar examples of evils that have occurred in the past and thereby understand what happened back then and why it happened? How can we deal with present prejudice if we're afraid to look directly at historical examples of past prejudice?

So, yeah, Slag...I think you have the right idea on this one. Be honest about the past, don't hide what was said or done in the past, but add a qualifying statement such as you have suggested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:43 AM

Little Hawk appears to vote No for Bowdlerization.

"How can we oppose present evils effectively if we are afraid to even look at similar examples of evils that have occurred in the past and thereby understand what happened back then and why it happened? "

It can be difficult to explain why The Victorians insisted on covering the Legs of Tables... at the same time as pretending to ignore the other depredations they happily engaged in...


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:54 AM

It can be difficult to explain why The Victorians insisted on covering the Legs of Tables

My understanding of this is that it's actually a kind of urban myth. If you look at actual photographs of Victorian interiors, you won't see any covered legs. Plenty of drapes and cloths over table tops, but legs of tables, chairs and other furniture are not covered! There was prudery around in part of the Victorian period in parts of that society, but far less than we might suppose now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 06:20 AM

I think in Victorian times the main thing was keeping up the outward appearances of virtue...whilst conducting a great deal of vice behind closed doors! ;-) There was a great deal of illicit sex occurring in that society.

Pretty much like now, in other words...hypocrisy was rife...but people were a lot more formal in Victorian times.

If you think about present day politics, for example, the vital thing, again, is keeping up the appearance of political virtue. Meanwhile there is all kinds of outrageous chicanery and dishonesty going on in the halls of power. You can lie, cheat, and steal all you want...just DON'T get caught! ;-) Getting caught is the one thing that is politically unforgiveable.

********

bowdlerization - To remove material that is considered offensive or objectionable from (a book, for example).

Yes, I'm against it. I'd rather let the public freely decide for themselves what is offensive or not than pre-empt their decision by making it for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 06:38 AM

···As for the term "nigger", it has become pretty much the ultimate politically uncorrect term in modern times, but when Mark Twain was writing his wonderful books it was the standard word in the vernacular for most Americans, particularly rural Americans...and both black and white Americans...used when they were speaking of a black person. So Twain had it in his books, naturally, because it was an ordinary term at the time.··· Little Hawk

Moreover, Twain was writing about the past: H Finn was written 1870s but set in the 1830s. As LH rightly points out, Jim refers to himself as 'a nigger', without any particular embarrassment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

History is history... I think folks understand that... Ebbie's example of Mark Twain is a prime example... The less you say, the better... A short footnote early on should take care of that and make the rest of the reading less cumbersome... In other words, no need for "Jap(enese)"...

Just MO...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 09:47 AM

If you used the term today, the young thay may think you mean jewish american princess?


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 09:58 AM

However the propaganda term "Hun" was actually the fault of Kaiser Wilhelm II, when, in a speech to German troops bound for China to intervene in "the Boxer Rebellion", he spoke of "die Deutschen, wie einst ihre Vorfahren, die Hunnen" - "the Germans like their forefathers, the Huns".
....................

Racial slurs are odd things. Call someone from Germany a Kraut and it's an insult, but in France "mon chou" is an endearment. "Picaninny" is seen as offensive, but "Bambino" is fine... Basically it should come down to the intention to offend, but then people will sometimes pretend they didn't mean to offend when in truth they did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 10:11 AM

I believe in the Spirituals permathread you will find an example of a disclaimer that can be adapted for your purpose.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM

Lots of posts and all seem to agree - how rare in BS.

MtheGM (05 Dec 10 - 04:28 AM): Quite right. I was naive enough not to realize the possible misinterpretation. "J*ps" may be better, but I agree with everybody that no asterisks are required here at all.

Nationalist propaganda in the 20th century is a very sad chapter indeed. Newspapers agitating their readers, for financial or petty political reasons, are among the main causes of war. If we bowdlerize quotations we prevent our readers to learn.

Grishka (male first name, = Greg)


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM

I agree with Slag's one-note-covers-all.

Labeling each individual usage calls attention to something you don't likely want to become the focus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 11:35 AM

"Basically it should come down to the intention to offend, but then people will sometimes pretend they didn't mean to offend when in truth they did."

Absolutely, McG. Paradoxically, people wil also sometimes pretend to be 'offended' when clearly no offence was intended.

I'm still a believer in the old adage about sticks and stones. And John McKenzie's quote about Political Correctness has the ring of truth about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 11:55 AM

Greg: Sorry to have misread your name. I was probably thinking of that bit in T S Eliot ~ 'Griskin is nice. Her Russian eye Is underlined for emphasis.' [from memory].

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: josepp
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 12:00 PM

////I am not so sure that the word Jap was used as a racial slur at the time////

Jap has been a slur since at least the 19th century. Henry Adams proved that when he wrote: "...Japs are monkeys and the women very badly made monkeys."


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 12:58 PM

As for "sticks and stones", sometimes it becomes more a matter or "sticks and stones may break your bones, but names can really hurt you."


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: josepp
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM

I'm against bowdlerization because it lets people off the hook who don't deserve it. It's revisionist really. Case in point was when Spiro Agnew referred to a Japanese reporter as "that fat Jap." Some researcher comes along and under the guise of not wanting to be offensive changes "Jap" to "dope." But it only serves to blunt Agnew's crudeness and sugarcoat his unpalatable character. He said Jap and it should always be noted that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM

josepp... Jap is short for Japanese...... the slur is likening them to monkeys!


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: josepp
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

////josepp... Jap is short for Japanese...... the slur is likening them to monkeys!////

Let's not go down this road. I highly suggest it. Jap is a slur and leave it at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:45 PM

When a word or a name is used as a slur, or in a context where it is liable to be understood as a slur, it's a slur. The same word or name used in another context is perfectly fine. Good manners, common sense and proper sensitivity to other people's feelings and it's pretty simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: bubblyrat
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:50 PM

In English patisserie, a "Jap " is a rather delicious confection. And I believe in calling a cake a cake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Big Phil
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 01:51 PM

Society if full of plastic sandal, tree hugging, P. C. minded twonks.

Can't see any offence calling anyone from a different Country by a short name, or even a nickname, Brit for British, Froggy for the french, Jap for the Japanese, Paddy for the Irish, Iyty for the Italians, Jerry for the Germans and Aussie for the Australians. Where is the problem, other than in the minds of the P.C. brigade.

Phil*


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: josepp
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 02:05 PM

Because in America "Brit" is not used to deride or insult British people. "Aussie" not used to insult Australians. I call Irish people Irish and don't use Paddy. I call Italian people Italian. I've never heard of Jerry for German. In America, it's kraut and most German-Americans would not likely be receptive to you calling them that. "Jap" has never been used simply as a shortened form and has never been used as term of endearment. Its history is one of hatred. Can't speak for other countries but that's the name of that tune in America. You can't call someone a Jap here and think that it's okay and they're just being too PC. It's up to you to have the sense to use the proper terms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 02:29 PM

In Canada, we welcomed the "Jap oranges" than came at winter time (also known as zipperskins. (See Foolstroupe, above, not meant as a slur.
Most of these oranges on the market here now are Chinese because they are cheaper, but the ones from Japan often are better.

I remember war-time usage, one in particular in the comic strip "Terry and the Pirates" by Milton Caniff. One can identify a Jap because the big toe is more separated from the others because of the type of sandals they wore.
The full set of "Terry...." is being issued in finely bound volumes, much appreciated by those of us interested in graphic literature. Many 'foreign' types appear, but the editors take the adult view and make no comment on usages of the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM

Big Phil, it's your own choice, as josepp wrote. You can use any word you like, claiming it to be just letters. You'll be surprised how quickly you can get lonely and hated.

"Froggy" is explicitely insulting, reducing a nation to a dish. Same with using a typical first name, such as "Paddy", thus suggesting "they are all alike". Other labels may or may not be considered offensive, depending on the context, as said before.

To avoid such offenses is a general rule of human behaviour. "P.C." is or was something quite different: rules of language designed to help particular groups of persons (and thus winning their votes etc.), even at the expense of ordinary correctness. I am not in favour of that, to be sure. There are some intermediate cases in which advanced diplomacy is necessary. If you learn that, it's your own advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM

I remember a BBC situation comedy, aired in U.S. and Canada, about an Englishman who had "made it" and his travels in Europe. In one episode, he objected to travelling on "Frogair." Much beyond Archie Bunker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:15 PM

"Jerry" was a very common British term used to denote German soldiers or Germans generally, but I don't think it carried much offensive connotation, no more than the German term "Tommy" did for British soldiers. It's a term of familiarity more than anything, I think. "Hun", on the other hand, as used in British newspapers and common speech during WWI was definitely an abusive term, intended to inspire fear, hatred, and loathing of Germans. I doubt that Kaiser Wilhelm anticipated that that would ever happen when he used the term in connection with German troops sent to the Boxer Rebellion. ;-) He tended to make strategic errors of judgement reasonably often...if he had not tried to build a navy equal to the Royal Navy (British fleet), he might not have had Britain as an enemy in 1914. It was a huge error on his part. The Germans and British, after all, had been allies through most of the 1700s and 1800s, and that friendly relationship only broke down when Germany tried to build naval power to rival Britain's. That the British would not tolerate.

It's quite correct that "Aussie" is not offensive. It's an affectionate term. And so is "Kiwi". And "Brit". And "Canuck". And "Yank". All those terms are basically affectionate ones of familiarity, used as much by friends as by enemies. "Russkie" is kind of like that too. I don't think that's true of the words "Hun", "Wop", "Jap" or "Eye-tie". They are terms used toward a hated or despised enemy, certainly not by a friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM

Call me a Brit and you'll soon see how fuckin' affectionate I become:0(

Call me Jock, Haggis basher,sheep shagger,and I'll give you a friendly smile.....but I draw the line at "Brit"


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:48 PM

My grandfather was a baker during WW1

When he went back to the bakehouse after leaving the forces he found that the famous type of biscuit called "German biscuits" had a name change, from then till the present day they have been known as "Empire biscuits".....isn't war nuts!


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM

Wow!!! Thanks for all that insightful help, especially to Susan who actually gave us the words for the note.

In order not to bias anyone, we intentionally did not reveal the whole story at the outset. Here it is.

We not only wrote this article but we are also the editors of the journal in which it will be published. As the editors, we considered this problem and decided to simply leave the quotes as they were with no explanation on the assumption that, like on Mudcat, readers would understand the context. A similar quote appears in another article.

However, the organization that pays for the publication of the journal has said that the term "Jap" is unacceptable and suggested Jap[anese] instead. We did not agree with that and, apparently, no one here does either.

We're still trying to resolve the problem and that is why we asked for your sage advice. By the way, the term "yellow peril" appeared in a quote in yet another article and we tried to delete it because it was mostly tangential to the rest of the article. However, the author insisted on leaving it in and we caved. The organization that pays for the publication does not have a problem with "yellow peril".

Go figure.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 04:51 PM

I do not think you should call Americans Yanks..unless you know they are from the northern states. It is not a term that many Southern US Americans would want to be called. I also am not convinced, although I can not prove it, that the word "nigger" was in common usage as an inoffensive word. Probably by some people..anything is probably by some people..but I think it was a word used to humiliate and abuse and control people. I think other, less inflammatory words were used if intentions were neutral or respectful at least for the conditions of the times....among them "Nigra," "Negro", colored folk etc. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 04:55 PM

Ake - What I draw the line at is being called a ****od***us ***t or a **********ient *****b****er! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:01 PM

-yankee is just part of a word; in the south it was always damnyankee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:19 PM

But we don't mind "ragheads" now do we!!


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Mudcat time: 5 April 1:51 PM EDT

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