BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:52 AM

Yes, Mrs Bonzo bought the Christmas Radio Times last week!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 12:22 PM

Bonzo, see the new Christmas TV and Radio Times are in the shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 10:55 AM

And replace them with what?

Whatever you replace them with, you replace them with the same.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So best not get het up about it. At least the present lot understand the need to eventually spend taxes on a social program rather than spend it all on interest payments. Short term difficult, yes. Priorities I can't agree with, yes. the Tories using it as an excuse to push idealogical dogma, yes. But overall, at least they are trying to address it even if their priorities need modifying.

Anyway, we talk of rich versus poor, Tory versus Labour, socialist versus realist blah blah. But in the final analysis, politician is non divisible. They are politicians first and political flavour second. Prescott soon got the croquet set out once he had his grace & favour country pad....

Went from Ginsters to taste the difference pies too for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:02 AM

'And I doubt they have beards or spend all day going green at the gills looking at those with a bit more...'

Probably cos they've already got a lot more. See footnote about politicians being crooked as a dog's hind leg.....

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:42 AM

i used to teach service mens kids.

A sergeant once warned me about his son. he explained, he's probably picked up army ways from me. the unofficial motto of the the army is - yessir! nosirr! three bags fullsirr! Stamp your foot! and then do what you bloody like.....

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:35 AM

""not many squaddies have that much time for the poshocracy.""

Well anyone who ever listened to the accents and the names of many officers above the rank of lieutenant, whose men would, and often do, follow them to hell and hopefully back, might find that statement suspect at the very least.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:27 AM

""FFS - stop treating the word "tendency" as if it implied a 1:1 identity. It doesn't. Pretty good for people who think that English is their thing. Not.""

I've just been back over my last eight posts, and I can't find the word in any of them. The closest I can get is "tend to leave me more cash in my wallet".

I can't be arsed to trawl through a months posts to find out what you are whingeing about.

""And, to ram the point home, while the conservatives (who tend to be rich) have, says Don, no time to sort out tax loopholes, they can make time to legislate to kick the poor. It shows you exactly where their priorities lie.""

And if you wish to quote me, please do me the courtesy of doing so accurately and in context.

13th December 08:07

""The coalition has had just seven months, with other matters taking a higher priority, so you do not, and cannot, know whether they will deal with it during their term in office.""

Not quite the same as your deliberate misinformation, IS IT?

You are showing all the standard Labour prejudices and bias, and a sizeable quantity of their lack of manners.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:13 AM

I haven't got a Panasonic telly?

Actually, I am more neurotic about making sure the wealth of the nation is governed by those who understand the symbiosis of Adam Smith funding the dream of Bevan.

And I doubt they have beards or spend all day going green at the gills looking at those with a bit more...

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:01 AM

""(I'm not even sure I'd let you get away with it in Scrabble!)""

Check your dictionary!!.......You'd lose!

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:18 PM

"he can't come home for Christmas" if it's all the same to you!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:26 PM

1) they wouldn't have a modern army were it not for Oliver Cromwell - not an ardent royalist. not many squaddies have that much time for the poshocracy.

2) no ones after your Martin or your panasonic telly - I'm talking about the motherlode of the country's wealth which is greater than the few baubles they allow the petit bourgeoisie, and which you seem to be neurotic about losing. Not interested in your wealth, or lack of it.

3) richard is the one who thinks the tax people are to be trusted - not me

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM

Had to tell a client working in Libya that he can't came home for Christmas - too many days in the UK you see, so he's spending Christmas in the South of France with his family - and still gloriously non-resident. Doesn't that get up your noses?????

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 12:33 PM

The bumholes seem rather complete in your wonderful turn of phrase Alan....

In order to redistribute wealth, you have take mine for starters. Now.. you can have my old Martin D45, I rarely play now, prefer the Fylde.

My properties? You are welcome to the ones that seem to attract tenants for whom arrears is a habit rather than an issue. (really, make me an offer. been on the market ages and other Landlords are pissing themselves about Muggins here buying up "bargains" a few years ago.)

Other than that, if you want my wealth, you need an army. You see, the only army in this country tends to be loyal to the likes of me, not you.

Bit of a bugger that, I suppose, from where you are coming from. Me? Not coming anywhere, but off to the pub now to have a pint. (Or as you would possibly put it, cohorting with the proletariat.)

Just remember, it ain't just the top 5% who are content with their lot. The vast majority of decent people are only as angry as the newspapers would have you believe. A word to the wise, stop believing newspapers. I may pay far more tax than I would like, but like many people, I have to have an element of trust in government to spend it wisely. Hence supporting the principle of getting out of national debt, even if their focus either is or is perceived as being an attack on social infrastructure. I don't agree with either their priorities or their salvation, (private sector recovery) but I am grateful that we now have a government for whom debt is a menace rather than a tool. Didn't vote for either by the way. The local labour chap is a good solid back bencher who works hard and is squeaky clean on the old expenses front. I don't agree with everything he says, but an advocate of local issues is more important to me than a vote with the whips.

Oh, and those who would spend a fortune to stay in Sandringham? I thought you hated anybody who didn't give all their money to the tax man voluntarily?

I suppose we could never have a revolution in this country. Those wanting change couldn't even think through the process of keeping their bloody trousers up.

Viva la revolu.............oh, time to put the kettle on.

Nurse! Nurse! the weird beards are waking up again! "Well tell them to suck on a Fisherman's Friend!" But nurse, the shanty singers have all gone home!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM

What a complete load of complete bumholes Willie!

Russia had been through a revolution and a war. The Royal Family's loot is pretty much intact.

People would pay a fortune to stay in a suite in Sandringham, Balmoral, or Buck House. God knows how much each of the Van Dyke's would bring in. prince Charles's sausages are the most expensive in Sainsburys - the company must be worth something.

It's their shout.

Richard may not be talking about redistributing the wealth, I am.

Personally richard I wouldn't trust the tax people to organise the backwards movement of a fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:41 AM

This is not about the redistribution of wealth. It's about who pays, and who dodges payment.

FFS - stop treating the word "tendency" as if it implied a 1:1 identity. It doesn't. Pretty good for people who think that English is their thing. Not.

The burden of the necessary bank bailout is being passed to the poor, while the rich (who tend to be aligned with the CBI and the conservatives) are not (as a general tendency) paying their dues.

And, to ram the point home, while the conservatives (who tend to be rich) have, says Don, no time to sort out tax loopholes, they can make time to legislate to kick the poor. It shows you exactly where their priorities lie.

Get the proper tax in, there'd be no need for cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM

Who are "our lot" and "their lot?"

We? By "we" do you mean people who like and in the main play folk music? Or do you mean those who have less than others?

Don't drag all contributors to any level. We are all different, that's what makes the debate relatively healthy.

You know, the 90% you speak about is a bit wide. It includes all 40% tax payers and many 50% tax payers. Most of whom are happy with their lot and see redistribution of wealth for what it is, an abstraction. Redistribute it and suddenly realise it never existed in the first place. Old Lenin used to sit there wondering where the Czar kept the stash... Don got it right above when he pointed out that in order to have wealth, it has to be created.

Redistribute it and the trade and industry assets that create wealth are locked in to the purchase of Micro Chips whilst watching Cash in the Attic. (Note to self, buy shares in McCains just in case.)

Me? I'd trust the Duke of Westminster to stoke the economy more than the feral buggers who owe me rent.....

Mind you, I live in hope of perhaps one day, G20 clipping the wings of international conglomerates and banks in order to ensure a level playing field. But like the wannabe Trotskys, I can dream.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:49 AM

No you're not getting this Don.

Our lot have less than 10% of the money in the land. Some say less than 5%.

Their lot have over 90% of the money in the land?

Why is it ALWAYS our turn to buy the drinks.

In particular, why is it our turn now, when so many of us are skint?

Thats it within my purview.
(I'm not even sure I'd let you get away with it in Scrabble!)

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:15 AM

""'within the purview of the state' - does the phrase 'pompous bollocks' not resound somewhat.""

Weak argument?........Simple, just slag off the poster for using perfectly correct English.

Unworthy of you Al.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:06 AM

I've been hearing this argument about dispossessing the rich for more than fifty years, and it's as stupid now as it was back in the fifties.

For starters, if you take all the money in the country and distribute it equally, how much would each of us have?

Not bloody much!!

And when we decide to spend it, just what will we be spending it on?

Where is the incentive, and where is the wherewithal, for anyone to manufacture, or farm, or govern?

Like it or not, without Capital there is no Labour, no jobs, and no hope for any future.

Total equality may be very appealing, and would be great except for one thing. Every society that has tried to make it work has failed, for the very good reason that somebody always winds up giving the orders, and that coterie always ends up ruling by dictat and imposing a repressive regime.

If someone could work out how to make such a society work in any community larger than a village, it would already have happened. The fact that it hasn't would seem self explanatory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM

Well of course theres nothing wrong with the conservative party having its tradtional power base with the rich of the land.

Frankly Arthur, if you're not rich - there's sod all for you in voting for them. If you're skint - Labour will chuck a few more goodies your way. Stuff - basic decencies that wouldn't occur to a tory as long as he had a hole in his arse. The health service, the open university, mobility allowance - all labour initiatives.

Both lots are as crooked as a dogs hind leg. But tories believe that money believe that money tradtionally belongs in the pockets of the rich, and they don't like breaking with THAT tradition.

I think therein lies the problem really. In the present situation - we need someone who will get the money off the rich. the tories won't do it. I don't think the labour will either.

You may find me climbing the cenotaph. Although I detest Pink Floyd - they could bore for Eastern Europe in the Olympics.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

You know, although M'Unlearned friend hasn't the facts to back up his claim that CBI membership equates to supporting the Tories, I actually think that if anybody is sad enough to find out, he'd be proven right.

But so what?

The conservative party market themselves as the party of business. They offer a climate for business to flourish, (even though you couldn't really differentiate between them and New Labour in all honesty.)

So, what is wrong with big businesses supporting the Tory party? trade unions traditionally support The Labour party for the same reasons.

I fail to see the point. Both parties set their stall out and as we don't state fund parties, they need funding from people and organisations who they appeal to.

And then come the election, we decide who has the majority of the answers to most of the issues. Neither party will please all the people all time. Lib Dem have proved you can only do that when you don't have to deliver....

Oh, and whilst few vote hoping for a coalition, the outcome is a feasible one within the rules. And by no means a new phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 10:25 PM

Don, two simple things give the lie to all you have said.

The government told the Inland Revenue to back off Vodafone about £6 billion.

The government by its new appointee did the deal with Switzerland that netted £2 billion and gave up on £200 billion.

And don't be such an idiot about "voting for a coalition". There was no such option on the paper. The LDs got enough seats to hold the balance of power, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 09:26 PM

well its an answer, but a bloody silly one.

'within the purview of the state' - does the phrase 'pompous bollocks' not resound somewhat.

the tax authorities are agents of the government. they say an oath to the Queen, and her ministers. If the Labour or Tories are in charge - they are directly working for them. Us in the long term, the government in the short.

Cards on the table - I don't agree with Richard, but I can't see why you're abusing him.

On paper he's right. If theres the money to be had to get us out of the shit by collecting taxes better - then we should do it, rather than squeezing poor people who can't afford it. Pretending that not paying student grants doesn't matter is just sophistry - of course it bloody matters.

The trouble with richards plan is probably something to do with the fact that no one has understood the tax system for ages. that's why we employ accountants to protect us from it closing down every bloody business in England.

Quieta non movere - for whatever reason the tax dept of England is known only for its massive destructive force. madness lies within its walls - keep out!

The best thing would be to go straight to the rich for the money. Chuck the Royals off these estates and sell them to a hotel group. Flog some of the old masters in the National Gallery. they haven't got wall space for about nine tenths of what they own.

Every business has to do it. I've certainly had to do it with my little business as a musician. Sometimes you find yourself with about five PA systems, and twenty guitars and no money. So you flog some. It makes no sense having lots of assets and no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:10 PM

Excellent post. There is your answer Mr. Bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:07 PM

""But what is your point anyway? Are you arguing that because evasion IS illegal it is not wrong?""

Your constant pretence of misunderstanding is not only tiresome. It also makes you look pretty clueless.

For the sake of short circuiting more of the same crap:- Tax evasion is covered by existing law. It is the responsibility of HM Revenue and Customs to pursue a remedy under that law in the courts.

It does not lie within the purview of government, Labour or Coalition.

Tax avoidance is different. Being legal, it is for the government to enact legislation or regulation to remove the loopholes which allow it to happen.

The coalition has had just seven months, with other matters taking a higher priority, so you do not, and cannot, know whether they will deal with it during their term in office.

On the other hand, I can, and do, know that the Blair/Brown governments ignored it for thirteen years, and whether they were in the middle of a spending boom, or in the middle of the meltdown they left behind, wrong is still wrong and they made no attempt to right it.

As somebody said above "Get off your high horse".

This country voted for a coalition, and "Bottler" Brown wimped out and refused to be a part of it because he knew there would be difficult choices ahead and hadn't the guts to make them.

In addition, in the run-up to the election he conducted a scorched earth campaign, signing the new government up to contracts they couldn't get out of (e.g. Two aircraft carriers which will have no aircraft for ten years), knowing that they would carry the blame in the eyes of the public.

Brown should be indicted for defrauding the United Kingdom, and for wantonly damaging this country with the purpose of making it almost impossible for any incoming government to succeed.


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:03 PM

Capital gains of up to the annual exempt amount, currently £10,100 do not have to be declared on a tax return. The trick is to make sure that your spouse has a 50% share in the asset at the time it is sold, so that you get £20,200 of capital gains tax free each tax year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:53 AM

Read my lips Don - there have been many tax schemes over the years that relied not on money being allegedly non-taxable but on being allegedly non-disclosable. Non-disclosure was at those times definitely not always illegal. Whether it was evasion not to pay tax on it depended on whether it was lawful not to disclose it.

But what is your point anyway? Are you arguing that because evasion IS illegal it is not wrong?

Now the reason the positions of New Labour (which I did think less of because it was not proper Labour, but in its partial defence it was boxed in by electoral commitments - to which it seemed it paid more attention than the LDs do) differ from those of the current bunch of liars is that throughout most of NL's tenure it was running a hefty surplus in a booming economy and was not slashing living standards of the poor and lower middle classes on the basis of the mantra "We're all in this together". The Con-Doms are focussing their cuts on the poor (and I'm damned if I can see why you'd support that) and are dong nothing significant to raise revenues due both in law and morality from the rich. They have sold out on catching the cheats with Swiss bank accounts and have sold out to Vodafone - and the way that that loathsome toad Sir Philip Green jumped ship from supporting NL to the conservatives just before the election is inherently suspicious in that having taken his piles of cash out through tax fiddles he doubtless knew that the successful Brown/Darling defence of the world economy after the bankers stole the family jewels would lead in a sensible world to tax rises and the closing of tax loopholes. If only Green paid the tax he should pay or have paid (remember, he admitted that he was in general in favour of British businessmen paying taxes in Britain) it would equal the savings planned by benefit cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 12:46 AM

Nothing sinister Al :-)

100

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 12:45 AM

To Allan Whittle - can you check your Mail on your myspace account.
Cheers
Les

Apologies for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM

Evidence?.....multinationals take as much business as they can to places in the world where they assume no responsibility for the wellbeing of the workforce. Dear old Thatch chucked our entire mining industry in the direction of profiteers from child labour.

Figures?......you try and find a coalmine in England. a motorbike factory, a garment made in England in Marks and Spencer...

Statistics even?....anyone with an IQ above room temperature stopped counting ages ago.

Just a modicum of of commonsense requireed, Don.

Look if you want to vote Tory. You do it. But don't pretend any kind of patriot has had any lumber with that party for a generation. It has behaved disgracefully to the good tories like John MacGregor and Michael Hesseltine, who had some view of public service. The generation who fought in the war is gone. Just toffee nosed little turds left with a superiority complex to the rest of us.

And incidentally baby boomer education and welfare didn't come free. It was fought for by our fathers - tories and labour alongside each other.

it was only when the black marketeers daughter took over that things hit the skids.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:04 PM

""And we know from CBI membership which party the big corporations support (in general, not in every case).""

Evidence?.....NO!
Figures?......NO!
Statistics even?....AGAIN NO!

Just the usual unsubstantiated wild generalisation.

Until you adduce evidence in support, this is just biased opinion, void of weight and substance.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:00 PM

""And your suggestion is perhaps that non-disclosure is not tax cheating? Or what, exactly?""

My suggestion is perfectly clear to anyone who bothers to read what other people say, rather than skimming and deliberately affecting to misunderstand.

The hiding away of undeclared earnings (if earned within the jurisdiction of the UK tax system) is tax evasion, and therefore already illegal.

""If the system wasn't massaged, and the fiddles weren't fiddled (and the evasion didn't happen) there'd be a massive tax surplus to fund the NHS and education and to put benefits up to levels where there was no need for the benefits fraud that in total costs an insignificant fraction of the tax not collected.""

You still have not the bals to respond to my charge that you had nothing whatever to say about this during the thirteen years in which the Labour government ignored it, but foam at the mouth because the Tory government hasn't stopped it in seven months.

You accuse me of putting up Aunt Sallies and straw men, yet you exhibit many of the attributes of a diehard hypocrite.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 04:47 PM

Bozo is correct that director-shareholders can reduce their tax exposure by playing the system.   And that those heading companies can fiddle petrol expenses where those further down can't. Tax dodgers.

Companies like Vodafone do it and similar things on a bigger scale.


If the system wasn't massaged, and the fiddles weren't fiddled (and the evasion didn't happen) there'd be a massive tax surplus to fund the NHS and education and to put benefits up to levels where there was no need for the benefits fraud that in total costs an insignificant fraction of the tax not collected.


And we know from CBI membership which party the big corporations support (in general, not in every case). We know from the correlation between poverty in constituencies and electoral outcomes which party the rich (in general, not in every case) support. And we know that those who have the most would therefore be subject (if all went to taxmanplan) to the most tax.

QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:57 PM

Spot on Lox.

I suppose what I meant in my rather mumbly reply to Bonz (I'm working looooong hours at the moment - I'm a sole trader Bonz!) is that I was interested to see if the right-wingers were aghast at the uncouth language, despite being far more accommodating to their own uncouth behaviour and boorishness when it comes to paying their fair share.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Lox
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM

This inter party Bickering is all Bollocks.

The 38 degrees petition is 100% on the nail.

Osborne wants to plug the deficit with money raised from the poor and middle income earners.

He is not prepared to consider tax that, via mistakes in the drafting of tax law, people with good accounatnts are able to legally evade.

(yes I know the difference between avoidance and evasion)

This is because he doesn't want his millions in the virgin islands to be touched.

He's a miserly mendacious asshole.

He is also not prepared to consider reigning in bonuses paid to government employees in the recently nationalized banks.


Punish the poor.


Lying twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:49 PM

Nothing personal Bonz me old mucker, I just wanted to see if I could provoke the sort of self-righteous indignation from a right-winger by the use of mere words as their socially irresponsible attitude to their fellow citizens. Still the same old nasties as I seem to remember from my time in the party as a young conservative.

Nice to see the tories these days lack the same moral intelligence and are the same as they ever were.

Sincere and honest apologies for the use of such boorish language.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:07 PM

Sugarfoot Jack shows his uneducated ignorance by the use of foul and insulting language.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 09:23 AM

i think you guys are missing the point. The kind of amounts Richard is talking about ain't just self employed blokes fiddling a bit more petrol expenses. Common sense tells us - we are talking about huge corporations - presumably who came to England precisely because they could work the system.

I suppose in the case of multinationals - that's what they talk about at these meetings with the PM, when he sweetens the deal for them. And I guess the PM does so knowing damn well that every other country is offering similar under the counter deals.

When you think about it -its not honest. But then what is, in life.

Incidentally - did any of the rabid tory types see the article in yesterday's Times - How Unflash Gordon saved the world? How Gordon Brown Brown saved the economy of the western world by bailing the banks out. The article concludes that GB would be the best candidate for Head of the IMF, but that the partisan nature of English party politics means the tories would never accept the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:49 AM

Robbing cunt.

If I as a sole trader operated like this I'd be hauled over the coals. I prefer up-front and complete honesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:07 AM

But reasonable amounts of business mileage claimed at approved rates are never challenged by HMRC, so that's another easy £4,000 tax free, based on 10,000 miles and to make it more convincing, claim 10,245 miles with the balance of 245 miles at 25p and it doesn't need to be included on P11(d) - all good stuff.

For the moment, I would say that "income shifting" is a good tax planning move, and any accountant would be negligent if not recommending this to clients.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:59 AM

Like I said, P11(d) in respect of taxable benefits.

There is, as you know, a facility called directors' loan which can be for putting capital in and taking capital out during a financial year of a company. Any net negative figure is a benefit in kind and is taxed accordingly. Converting to dividends is one way of sorting the year end balance out, (assuming you are the sole shareholder, and the point above is about small businesses,) then NI is not applicable. A compliance officer may however deem benefit in kind as income and require NI. In any case, it is then your personal income, not corporation tax.

Other than salary and taking out through directors loan, there are no other legitimate ways of taking cash out. (Mind you, I held a fairly large petty cash float for a while, quite legitimately, and was asked to sort it or declare it. To be fair, I had been using it for business trips abroad and kept topping it up, and it had strayed upwards somewhat over the years. Unlike the reputation that M'Unlearned friend wishes to portray, I like the vast majority only put legitimate receipts against floats.)

If a claim is wholly and exclusively for the purpose of business, then that is irrelevant to this conversation. I am sorry, but fail to see the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:13 AM

Oh and then an appropriate claim is submitted for those expenses which are incurred "wholly and exclusively" for the purposes of the business.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:05 AM

"Can we please stop confusing directors' salary and corporation tax? Corporation tax is tax on money that belongs to and the net amount remains with, the company. If a director takes that money out of the company for personal use, they have to declare it on their P11(d) form and pay benefit in kind at their prevailing income tax rate. If they don't they are breaking the law and that is a completely different matter."

That's not correct, form P11(d) is for the declaration of expenses drawn and taxable benefits and consequent calculation of Class 1a national insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 06:55 AM

Two points, small and possibly pedantic, but relevant all the same;

Can we please stop confusing directors' salary and corporation tax? Corporation tax is tax on money that belongs to and the net amount remains with, the company. If a director takes that money out of the company for personal use, they have to declare it on their P11(d) form and pay benefit in kind at their prevailing income tax rate. If they don't they are breaking the law and that is a completely different matter.

Second point is about Richard's view concerning NHS dentistry. I fully back the general NHS clause that the state should provide evidence based care. (This is advertised as a fact, but there are a few caveats around all the same.) One point that may explain why dentists are increasingly reluctant to perform NHS work. There is no clinical evidence out there to suggest that adults require a check up every six months. (There are however studies to suggest that other than identified high risk patients, every two years is more than is needed.) I used to get fed up, when I chaired a health authority (PCT) of my Director of Public Health quite rightly pointing this out when we were discussing budgets.

If The NHS stopped funding unnecessary check ups, it would release (using 2007/8 figures from Dept of Health) over £85M for patient care.

Sorry to side track the debate, but as anybody who disagrees with M'unlearned friend is being shamed into starving the NHS, judging by his post above, I thought my experiences in trying to sort The NHS out may for once be relevant. You can pay lots of tax AND support The NHS after all! Sorry if that is too much to take in.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:28 AM

The despicable labour governments have decimated HM Revenue & Customs, which is so short staffed, to such an extent that tax evasion is unlikely to be even noticed by many of the peabrains now employed there!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:17 PM

Actually, Don, there have been a number of tax schemes that turned on the limitations of the obligation of disclosure. And your suggestion is perhaps that non-disclosure is not tax cheating? Or what, exactly?

By deluding yourself (and ignoring the fact that in a redistributive tax scheme the government takes money from those better off than you and applies it for your benefit and in some cases gives it to you) you don't only disadvantage yourself but also all the other net beneficiaries of a society that did not revolve round dog eat dog.

The facts so far indicate that the Con-Dems have no wish to make tax work. And that's not surprising for the perfectly rational reasons I have set out above which you ignore, preferring to go after aunt Sallies.

Your attempts to define the disadvantaged by reference to me are irrational and futile.

Get it through your head - if those who ought to pay tax but evade or avoid it did pay that tax, there's be more money, lots more money, more than the benefits clawbacks ever look at, to pay for the NHS - which you and all of us need, for benefits and pensions which you and all of us need, etc, etc.

What we all have is a right to stop you harming society and many of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:51 PM

""I've never hidden undeclared money in a Swiss bank account, but there are, what, £200 billion there of which the conservatives bothered only to claw back £2 billion.""

Now it's a very strange thing to find myself talking to a lawyer who hasn't grasped that the above is not avoidance, but evasion which is definitely illegal.

Since New Labour failed to attempt a remedy in thirteen years, it seems unreasonable to slag off the Tories for not having produced one in seven months and a day.

Perhaps you can use your crystal ball again and give us your best guess as to how many of those account holders voted for, and donated to, New Labour, and how many voted for, and donated to, the Tories?

NO?....I thought not.


""anyone worse off than me who votes conservative is doing himself no good although possibly fooling himself - which is what I believe you do - and they are abandoning the disadvantaged. It cannot be done in good conscience.""

Make up your mind. According to your protestations here and on other threads anyone worse of than you is one of those disadvantaged.

As to your comment about looking down on people:- "Funny that I observe you to do the same - what was the quote "English is my thing"?""

There is a world of difference between looking down on a perceived inferior (which is the tenor of your original comment on the subject), and objecting to someone trying to teach Granny to suck eggs.

I look down on no man alive, and I defer to no man alive.

Which is why I can't subscribe to your concept of a fair society.

My idea of a fair society would be one in which both Labour and Tory voters were treated with the same respect, and given the same rights and responsibilities.

In your fair society there would be no Tory voters, which is a tad too close to a dictatorship for my taste.

You believe what you wish about my deluding myself, but you have no right, nor should you have the right, to prevent my so doing.

That is called democracy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:32 PM

What utter nonsense Bridge. Why these attacks on the Conservatives ? I know exactly who to blame for this mess: Labour, and specifically Gordon Brown!

It was Brown, as chancellor who allowed the banks to take more and more risk with OUR money.It was Brown who allowed the formation of all these banks "too big to be allowed to fail"It was Brown who, despite being in a boom, spent more than we were bringing in in tax.

It was Brown who, showing his utter incompetence in understanding the facts about capitalist economic policies, proudly declared the end to boom and bust – it should be changed it to boom, boom, borrow and bankrupt!

Dont start blaming the condems for this muppets incompetence.

And dont go saying "it was a global problem" -the boom was as global as the bust, but I see double standards of the worst kind: Everything that goes right is down to me, everything wrong is "global" – pathetic. The reason we were so badly hit was down to his cosying up with the banks and allowing them to live the lifestyle we allowed them to: billions in bonuses knowing full well that the reserves were not sufficient but equally kknowing that they had become so big that we, the tax payers, would have to bail them out when it all went pear… Had he supported manufacturing, agricutlure, technology and all the other components of a well balanced economy as much as the champagne swigging chancers in the city we would have been more resilient to the crisis.

The truth is Gordon Brown was not the financial genius he convinced himself of. Remember the 10p tax fiasco? Anyone with a GCSE in maths could tell that that was always going to prejudice the low earners.

He betrayed his office, the country and the people. Even worse, he claims to be a socialist: New Labour did absolutely nothing for the working class other than condem them to a fate of minimum wage, give benefit handouts and poverty, and labour supporters like yourself, are blinkered and bigoted, still you continue to come out with this rubbish in Labours defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

PS Don, you have no idea how many things I have not let my accountant do. And you have no accurate idea of my income although possibly some as to my capital. None of which is relevant to the thread. I have never hidden £6 billion like Vodafone, I've never hidden undeclared money in a Swiss bank account, but there are, what, £200 billion there of which the conservatives bothered only to claw back £2 billion.

PS Bozo - you think its funny to brag how you (legally) swindle the state? I'm sure I know how you think of those claiming benefits who do comparable things, for you rejoice in closing what you see as loopholes for them.

PPS Don - anyone worse off than me who votes conservative is doing himself no good although possibly fooling himself - which is what I believe you do - and they are abandoning the disadvantaged. It cannot be done in good conscience.   

As to my practices - you've seen me lend my cherished Volvos long term to people (plural) stuck without a car: one never came back and one came back damaged - you maybe don't know who I pay more than the market rate for what because I think it right to do so - you've probably known me to lend cherished vintage HiFi stuff to people (plural) stuck without - you maybe don't know how much unpaid rent from whom I am not pursuing because I don't want further to harrass the unfortunate. And there's another list of things I've given away or lent, too. I'm not part of your problem. I've been part of your solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:55 PM

""(save that I do indeed look down on those who cannot be bothered to learn to speak or write properly - but then I do also on those who refuse to address pure or applied science).""

Funny that I observe you to do the same - what was the quote "English is my thing"?