Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.

Subject: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 06:02 AM

"Na Trad", the Scottish traditional music awards, on B.B.C. Alba T.V. last night, was, in my opinion, excellent - they get the funding, and they make good use of it.

In comparison, what we have in England is, as I've been saying for years (here, e.g.) is quite pitiful - although the upcoming clog and other folk dancing programmes on B.B.C. 4 are (if you'll pardon the pun) a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM

Thankfully, it's on the BBC iPlayer!

Na Trad

Congratulations to all, but especially ..... Malinky!

Cheers
Dick

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 07:27 AM

Saw this last night and despite the fact that my Gaelic is non existent thoroughly enjoyed the content Sheila Stewart, Joe Aitken (won trad singer of the year!), Julie Fowlis, Mary Anne Kennedy were presenters too
DrPhil Cunnigham with his shirt sleeve and lolts of Gaelic singers and pipers

Red Hot Chilli Pipers won an award too!

Of coures until recently being English I had not realised just to what extent Scotland and Ireland/Ulster have there own language (s), highly regarded musical culture which puts us English totally to shame!

Dance bands, accordions melodeons, fiddle and whistles and guitars are all played with enthusiasm

Gaelic programing (the language) and Gaelic songs are all in evidence!

I can get these progs via cable, but I am unable to get local stations ~ ie Sheffield/Leeds/Derby/~ terrestrial reception being poor due to a huge cliff behind me!

Radio Alba brill!!

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM

Interesting. Worth noting perhaps that the numbers of Gaelic speakers in Scotland rose from just over 80,000 in 1960 to a little over 90,000 in 1990 - that's around 2.5% of the population - and is still rising. In Ireland, in spite of much more government subsidy and promotion, the number of Gaelic speakers is falling.

I also think it's worth distinguishing between the popularity of a folk music culture as evinced by it's prominence in public broadcast media and it's popularity away from the media. I wouldn't dispute for a moment the excellence of Scottish music on Alba TV - I watch it quite a lot on iPlayer - and the greater profile of Scottish music in Scottish life generally. And I wouldn't dispute the comments already made in this thread.

The question for me is: would more TV programmes on English traditional music necessarily raise the profile and increase the popularity of the music with the general public? We certainly have some wonderful musicians and singers, and there's a fair amount of English music being made on the ground (well, there is in Sussex - can't speak for anywhere else). But there is a subtle difference between media prominence being given to something because it's genuinely a mainspring of the national culture - and media prominence being given to something because it's deemed "worthy".

I'd certainly like to see more English traditional music played on TV - but I'm a fan already and therefore don't count.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:08 AM

"the numbers of Gaelic speakers in Scotland rose from just over 80,000 in 1960 to a little over 90,000 in 1990 - that's around 2.5% of the population "

Unfortunately you are exaggerating the number of Gaelic speakers Will. There were 80,000 in 1961 which increased to about 88000 in 1971 but that has steadily declined since by about a third to around 57000 on 2001. This is a little over 1% the population. There is some increase in Gaelic Medium education but worryingly the decline of Gaelic speaking in its heartland is still thought to be happening. The 90000 figure you give above (which is less than 2% of the population) is for the number of people who have 'some knowledge' of the language. That is it includes people who can read a bit of Gaelic or perhaps understand some spoken Gaelic etc.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: G-Force
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:13 AM

As someone who has only just got a satellite dish (terrestrial digital TV seems to be unable to travel the 20 miles or so from Crystal Palace to me), I have only recently discovered BBC Alba, and a right revelation it's been!

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:50 AM

Thanks for the detail on Gaelic speakers in Scotland, Allan. I was aware that the 90,000 figure I quoted was 20 years out-of-date, but had assumed, probably wrongly, that the steady rise from 1980 would continue. Obviously not.

The point remains the same, of course - that media showcasing of a language, music, etc., doesn't necessarily mean that the language, the music or the etc. represents a major part of a nation's cultural style. Still, full marks to Alba for making the music available to a wider audience.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:54 PM

Amendments and apologies Professor Phil Cunningham (not just Dr)

BBC Alba I should say

Good luck to the Gaelic speakers and the Scots for their fine music making, long may it continue

So where are the English music and song programs?

can we do it to the same format?
Ray

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Rozza
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:32 PM

Apart from the Awards programme, is there a regular traditional music feature on Alba to listen out for?

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,Simon Thoumire
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 03:13 PM

Hi All,

Glad you all enjoyed the programme. They did a good job to condense a 4 1/2 hour show. I think the success of the trads has been that we realised early on that folk music means different things to different people. To that end we showcase as many of the different strands that we can - Scots, Gaelic, bagpipes, folk, dance band and much more. The industry has all supported from day one which has guaranteed its success. You can read more at www.handsupfortrad.co.uk.

BBC Alba has indeed been a revelation. They have many music programmes with loads of great musicians. I would love to see something similar for English and Welsh music although I'm always told that the scenes are not ready for it!!!

Cheers, Simon

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Effsee
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 03:15 PM

Tonight, 10.55 - 11.25, Horo Gheallaidh.
Friday, 10.30 - 11.30, Piping Live with Breabach.

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:21 PM

"media showcasing of a language, music, etc., doesn't necessarily mean that the language, the music or the etc. represents a major part of a nation's cultural style."

I kind of get what you saying but I'm not sure as to what you mean by major. There may be only over 1% of the Scottish population who now speak Gaelic but if you are looking at Scotland's diverse cultural tradition then Gaelic (in both song and poetry etc)plays a significant role. One that if anything has been undervalued in the past rather than overstated. Gaelic poetry probably is still way undervalued and sidelined as is poetry in Scots - Burns aside. Basically if we are looking at tradition then apart from the advent of Scottish Standard English in more recent times Scottish traditional song and verse was in Scots and Gaelic. You can't in truth have a balanced look at Scottish tradition without taking Gaelic into account. The Trad Awards were about music anyway whatever the language of the performer and I 'think' there were only two awards specifically based on language. That is the Scots Singer and Gaelic Singer awards. Plus of course one doesn't need to speak Gaelic to appreciate or perform Gaelic song or to regard it as part of your wider Scottish culture.

The station itself is probably watched by as many or more non-Gaelic speakers than Gaelic speakers hence it is a win win. The Gaels get their medium whilst the rest of us get some better progs than BBC Scotland often throws up :-)

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: sheila
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 07:25 PM

My Gaelic is limited to 'good morning', 'good evening', 'happy new year', 'thank you', etc - but I frequently watch the Gaelic-language shows. Not just the music, either - Eorpa and some of the gardening shows are also very good.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 05:58 AM

I kind of get what you saying but I'm not sure as to what you mean by major.

I suppose what I'm trying to say - and it's a mere quibble, really - is that there's a subtle difference between what exposure a particular art form gets on TV and radio, and how much that art form is actually embraced by the general public off-air. My hackles rise ever so slightly when I consider the huge amount of traditional music that's played down here in Sussex - with little exposure in the broadcast media - and then read that the English traditional music scene is "pitiful" by comparison with the Irish or Scottish scenes. All from measuring exposure on TV and radio?

I do acknowledge that there's more top-down, overt support given to traditional music in Ireland and Scotland than in England - and a lot more prominence in their respective broadcast media as well. English broadcasters continually ignore the grass roots stuff that's being played virtually every night of the week in pub sessions, singarounds and clubs all over England.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:22 AM

"They did a good job to condense a 4 1/2 hour show". I thought that if they were going to broadcast it two nights running, it might have been better if they hadn't condensed it so much, and then we could have seen three hours of it instead of 1 1/2. It might then have been possible to hear the performances right through and not have them faded out to show interviews.

Now that Radio Scotland's Reel Blend is no longer broadcast on medium wave (and therefore inaudible to those of us not near a Radio Scotland FM transmitter), wouldn't it be nice if it could be heard on the Freesat channel of either Radio Scotland, BBC Alba, or Radio nan Gaidheal?

Other than that I am glad to be able to get BBC Alba. Long may it continue.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:32 AM

I'm watching it now. Fabulous. Excellent that the BBC had put this online for all to see. It's also introducing me to lots of Scottish singers and musicians I've never heard of, but who are obvious well-known and respected in Scotland.

Thank you BBC.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 11:12 AM

Sheila Stewart was superb, last saw her at Ripponden Folk Club. what ? 15 years ago or more.

Why can't the BBC in England do things like this ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 12:07 PM

The BBC as a whole should be a bit less interested in competing with ITV etc over ratings and get back to actually being more of a service. We all miss out from the under-representation of English folk performers on TV. Wouldn't it be great if after doing Transatlantic Sessions and the Highland Sessions, BBC Scotland did a series on Both Sides The Tweed Sessions? Bring a host of English performers up to that farm house in Perthsire or wherever it is! But yes as you said why on earth doesn't even one of the BBC Regions in England come up with their own programme? Maybe they do and I've never picked up on it of course?

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Martha Burns
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 11:22 PM

They won't let us see it in the U.S. You get a box that says "Not available in your area." Too bad. You've all whetted my interest.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:36 AM

Apparently, Martha, the B.B.C. are considering an international version of their iPlayer, whereby those overseas can either pay or put up with ads for it, I think..?

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:28 AM

That's the total number of speakers in Scotland. There are many speakers scattered around the world who speak it fluently or have some
knowledge of the language, and it is also being taught in schools outside Scotland. In Nova Scotia and Ontario, there are Gaelic speakers, and I know that in Nova Scotia there is a movement to keep
it alive, by offering it in all school levels from primary to university, and with bilingual road signs.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM

In Scotland, they have such programmes largely due to positive Scottish nationalism; in England, we need positive English nationalism; in Wales, they need more positive Welsh nationalism; and we all need the monarchy to be peacefully dissolved, with much of their enormous wealth redistributed.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:27 PM

Well of course I was speaking about the number of Gaelic speakers in Scotland as however many there are elsewhere in the world is pretty irrlevant to what was being discussed. If we look at that though then there may be many Nova Scotians who had Gaelic speaking forbears but the truth of the matter is that there are now very few Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia. Latest estimates put it at something under 500 - and many of these are quite elderly. In other words it is pretty comparable with the parts of Scotland one wouldn't normally associate with Gaelic speaking.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/gaelic/

I did read that the 1991 Canadian census identified only 4000 Gaelic speakers in the whole of Canada. That in itslef is only a tiny fraction of the number of speakers in Scotland. But it is actually exaggerated as it seems that this 4000 figure does not even differentiate between Scottish and Irish Gaelic. It is pretty self evident that if Gaelic (ie and we are talking Scottish Gaelic) is going to be preserved as a community language (rather than a hobby language) then it is going to be preserved in Scotland - and my point was that it needs to be in its heartland.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:01 PM

Orkney did well again !!

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:30 PM

Checking the Canadian census for 2006 it shows a total of 6014 people speaking "a Gaelic language" which is more than the previous figure I'd found. But the point remains it is a tiny fraction of the speakers in Scotland and it is the figure for both Scottish Gaelic and Irish. The same census shows about 22,000 Irish immigrants in Canada at that moment so we can reasonably presume that a fair percentage of the 6014 speakers of a Gaelic language come from this immigrant group.

You often read things on the net (not that it has been suggested in this discussion)suggesting there are more Gaelic speakers in Canada than in Scotland. In short it is a myth.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Effsee
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:31 PM

Guest Allan Conn, I would doubt that many of the Irish immigrants/Gaelic speakers would be in Nova SCOTIA! Newfoundland more likely.

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:06 AM

I know that this thread has drifted but I would like to make a few comments on the secondary discussion.
Nova Scotia's Cape Breton Island, where I live, is the only place remaining in Canada where you are likely find Scottish Gaelic spoken in the home environment. Almost all of the fluent speakers who had it as a mother tongue are in their senior years and their numbers are rapidly diminishing due to the ravishes of time. However on a brighter note there is considerable effort to teach it in the schools and there are many community groups of adults actively learning it as well. Gaelic is far from dead here and the culture and the music flourish.
That being said and returning to the main discussion it would be helpful indeed if BBC stopped blocking programs such as this from our view!
Slainte,
            Sandy

Subject: RE: Scottish Trad. Awards on T.V.
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:37 AM

"I would doubt that many of the Irish immigrants/Gaelic speakers would be in Nova SCOTIA! Newfoundland more likely."

Fair dos but my comments about the Irish Gaelic speakers were about Canada as a whole and not Nova Scotia. I know that Nova Scotia/Cape Breton have Gaelic tradition etc - but that is not the same as there being many speakers there. The word 'many' is relative. To keep it in perspective as a whole there is about one Gaelic speaker out of every 1880 people in Nova Scotia. Compare that with the Scottish Borders (which along with Orkney and Shetland is just about the most un-Gaelic part of Scotland)where there is about one Gaelic speaker for every 330 people. I know if you break it down to Cape Breton then many of the speakers will be centred on there but the cold fact remains that there simply aren't very many of them. The numbers are miniscule when compared with Scotland. I'm not suggesting that it isn't great that there are speakers there and that it is being encouraged. Just pointing out that the language's ultimate survival depends on how it fairs in its homeland and I'd go further and say in its Highland and Island heartlands.